I'm at a point where I don't believe that men and women can be friends, and where I see that the only thing that stands in the way of penetration is inadequate or inappropriate game.

It is because of this that I no longer believe in the "Friendzone." It is a logical impossibility.

"Friendzone" is a term most likely termed by women.

It is essentially what happens when the man gives the frame to the woman.

As a player, you don't have "Friendzone."

If you are on top of your game, you can't be put in the "Friendzone," because you are the one calling the shots.

"Friendzone" is just another shit test.

I have a few female friends I don't want to fuck. Either they're not attractive or married (and I know and respect the guy). If a dude is attracted to her, and shes not super involved with a known entity, than I agree with you.

Quote: (07-13-2013 03:09 AM)_DC_ Wrote:  

I have a few female friends I don't want to fuck. Either they're not attractive or married (and I know and respect the guy). If a dude is attracted to her, and shes not super involved with a known entity, than I agree with you.

I don't like to hang around girls that I'm not attracted to.

Quote: (07-13-2013 03:19 AM)soup Wrote:  

Quote: (07-13-2013 03:09 AM)_DC_ Wrote:  

I have a few female friends I don't want to fuck. Either they're not attractive or married (and I know and respect the guy). If a dude is attracted to her, and shes not super involved with a known entity, than I agree with you.

I don't like to hang around girls that I'm not attracted to.

That's a bit depressing. And what about in the case of if you are trying to lock down a place (if she is a host, bartender, etc...) or get a good connection to get access to high quality females (if she has a job that connects her to beautiful women or has a strong social circle)? In that case wouldn't a friendzone be ideal, to keep things uncomplicated?

Quote: (07-13-2013 04:09 AM)ao85 Wrote:  

Quote: (07-13-2013 03:19 AM)soup Wrote:  

Quote: (07-13-2013 03:09 AM)_DC_ Wrote:  

I have a few female friends I don't want to fuck. Either they're not attractive or married (and I know and respect the guy). If a dude is attracted to her, and shes not super involved with a known entity, than I agree with you.

I don't like to hang around girls that I'm not attracted to.

That's a bit depressing. And what about in the case of if you are trying to lock down a place (if she is a host, bartender, etc...) or get a good connection to get access to high quality females (if she has a job that connects her to beautiful women or has a strong social circle)? In that case wouldn't a friendzone be ideal, to keep things uncomplicated?

It's not a real friendzone because it is your choice not to bang her at that time.

No, it is better to have all the women attracted to you and you having the choice. If she's a bartender or host than she's probably attractive unless you are hanging at boner forsaken venues.

You wil never be their friend in the true sense of what that means. You won't go out drinking with them like you would your boys.

I have female friends that I'm not interested in sexually, but I get the feeling they want to fuck me. I've often gotten intoxicated and dipped into this all-too-available pool of pussy, thus ruining the "friendship."

Someone seems to always have an ulterior motive in these situations.

I generally do not seek non-sexual female companionship, perhaps because I used to be friendzoned in the past. I don't think it's impossible, however; I do have a couple of females in my extended circle who are attractive but in various LTRs and marriages and with whom I can have interesting conversations. In the end, however, I prefer to treat every woman as a sexual prospect and even though I don't intend to bang her, I'll still flirt with her and "game" her in the sense that I won't take her seriously, thus rendering a notion of "friendship" between us meaningless.

I think using the "friendzone" as a tool against male feminists is fun.

MF: *blah hamster blah*
You: "Ok so do you think it's ok to be in a girl's friendzone?"
MF: "There's nothing wrong with being in the friend zone" *hamster hamster*
You: "Ok so you're admitting you'd rather be fucking all of these women?"
MF: *blah hamster outrage hamster flustered hypocrisy*

Basically, friendzone can't exist without simps who can't get the pussy they want enabling it to exist. If they didn't want to fuck her, they'd just be a friend.

If a girl is my friend, it's because I don't want to fuck her 'cause it's one of my buddy's girlfriends or whatever. Having women as friends is particularly useful if you're a broke ass uni student - they're generally very nurturing and helpful. Other girls tend to notice the tension that they develop, too, and start to feel it themselves

Yes the friend zone can exist. Although the "friend zone" as a player sees it is completely different than how a beta will see it.

Example from my life:

A female friend that goes back to highschool. She understands a woman's place in society and is a conservative. While not being completely religious, she lost her virginity at 23 to a boyfriend of 3+ months. Prior to that she had only done heavy petting with one other guy.

She is practically my partner in crime, as she loves hearing the second hand stories of all my adventures. There may be a few deep dark secrets about me that she doesn't know, but not many. The reverse is also true, as she is comfortable telling me about her secrets.

My frame:

She knows I am sexually interested in her, but not in a "one-itis" type way. No, she knows I am sexually interested in her because of the fact I am sexually interested in all attractive women, because I am a man. She does like the attention and does some minor attention whoring, but shes a female and its her nature.

While she is a long time friend and has seen some the softer more vulnerable sides of me, I maintain the typical red pill alpha role during 95% of our conversations.

-I have my nicknames for her.
+Woprah - white oprah, because she is my go to source for advice
+Lil Husky - she sent me a pic one night before going out asking how she looked. I told her she looked like she was built for the winter.
+Patriot - She has a weakness for men in uniform and secretly wants to fuck the majority of them

-I maintain a sexual frame
+She hears all my stories
+I send her the "Tits or STFU" style text once in a while when she is annoying me
+When she is mad at her boyfriend I encourage her to come over, get drunk, and choke on some bad decisions.
+I tell her which friends of hers I think are cute, and she tries to set me up with them.

-I encouraged her sexual growth
+Prior to her current boyfriend and losing her virginity I would try to set her up with decent guys I know
+She would tell me her desires to blow some military guy, I would tell her its her duty to this country to take a 6 roper across the face.
+When she finally lost her virginity, I told her it was about time and the next logical step was anal.

The results:

-She has never sent me any nude pictures. She claims it would be cheating and unfair to boyfriend. I tell her its about time a female thinks that way.
-She has expressed her interest to blow me several times, telling me if her boyfriend ever breaks up with her she will gladly do it.
-She told me she wished she lost her virginity to me, and asked why I never made a serious move at her.
-She tries some typical attention whoring tactics once in a while, which I shut down fast.
-She sets me up with her friends.
-She is always there when I have a vulnerable moment and need advice.
-Under different circumstances she knows I would fuck her and I know she would fuck me. But it isn't in the cards right now, and I have told her if It ever happened it would be a strict FWB deal and nothing between us would change, or I would cut if off.


So thats the version of "friend-zone" that I am in. That is what I believe a red pill style friend zone is.

Men and women can be friends, but Insay that with the understanding that friendship can be defined in any number of ways. The issue with the friendzone is that it's usually a misunderstanding.

When a girl tells a guy, "let's just be friends," she's not usually talking about any kind of real friendship. She means that she wants someone to hang out with and keep her company and be her shoulder until someone she is actually attracted to shows up. Unfortunatley, a lot of people treat friendship as a placeholder between relationships. Avoid those people.

Quote: (07-13-2013 07:19 AM)AntiTrace Wrote:  

Yes the friend zone can exist. Although the "friend zone" as a player sees it is completely different than how a beta will see it.

Example from my life:

A female friend that goes back to highschool. She understands a woman's place in society and is a conservative. While not being completely religious, she lost her virginity at 23 to a boyfriend of 3+ months. Prior to that she had only done heavy petting with one other guy.

She is practically my partner in crime, as she loves hearing the second hand stories of all my adventures. There may be a few deep dark secrets about me that she doesn't know, but not many. The reverse is also true, as she is comfortable telling me about her secrets.

My frame:

She knows I am sexually interested in her, but not in a "one-itis" type way. No, she knows I am sexually interested in her because of the fact I am sexually interested in all attractive women, because I am a man. She does like the attention and does some minor attention whoring, but shes a female and its her nature.

While she is a long time friend and has seen some the softer more vulnerable sides of me, I maintain the typical red pill alpha role during 95% of our conversations.

-I have my nicknames for her.
+Woprah - white oprah, because she is my go to source for advice
+Lil Husky - she sent me a pic one night before going out asking how she looked. I told her she looked like she was built for the winter.
+Patriot - She has a weakness for men in uniform and secretly wants to fuck the majority of them

-I maintain a sexual frame
+She hears all my stories
+I send her the "Tits or STFU" style text once in a while when she is annoying me
+When she is mad at her boyfriend I encourage her to come over, get drunk, and choke on some bad decisions.
+I tell her which friends of hers I think are cute, and she tries to set me up with them.

-I encouraged her sexual growth
+Prior to her current boyfriend and losing her virginity I would try to set her up with decent guys I know
+She would tell me her desires to blow some military guy, I would tell her its her duty to this country to take a 6 roper across the face.
+When she finally lost her virginity, I told her it was about time and the next logical step was anal.

The results:

-She has never sent me any nude pictures. She claims it would be cheating and unfair to boyfriend. I tell her its about time a female thinks that way.
-She has expressed her interest to blow me several times, telling me if her boyfriend ever breaks up with her she will gladly do it.
-She told me she wished she lost her virginity to me, and asked why I never made a serious move at her.
-She tries some typical attention whoring tactics once in a while, which I shut down fast.
-She sets me up with her friends.
-She is always there when I have a vulnerable moment and need advice.
-Under different circumstances she knows I would fuck her and I know she would fuck me. But it isn't in the cards right now, and I have told her if It ever happened it would be a strict FWB deal and nothing between us would change, or I would cut if off.


So thats the version of "friend-zone" that I am in. That is what I believe a red pill style friend zone is.

That actually doesn't sound so bad. I was friendzoned once in my life, and it was because I had one-itis and was a chode (although I was never a white knight, fuck that shit).

But even though that sounds like a decent situation, it's still rooted in mutual sexual attraction - which is not really the friendzone. If she broke up with her boyfriend, you two would likely sleep together. Most friendzone cases are unrequited - aka "one way" streets.

Quote: (07-13-2013 08:48 AM)ryanf Wrote:  

But even though that sounds like a decent situation, it's still rooted in mutual sexual attraction - which is not really the friendzone. If she broke up with her boyfriend, you two would likely sleep together. Most friendzone cases are unrequited - aka "one way" streets.

Agreed. That is what the difference is between a red pill friend zone and a blue pill friend zone.

A red piller creates the attraction, doesn't put her on a pedestal, is not afraid to admit his desires, and leads the interactions. The most important thing is that the friendship is on your terms, and if she isn't willing to comply with those you wouldn't be friends.

The blue piller hopes for the attraction, puts her on a pedestal thinking she will eventually come around, and denies his sexual desires. The female leads the friendship and it is her decision what forms it takes and whether it continues or not.

A red pill friend zone can be a great thing. You gain passive access to a new set of females (friends of your friend) and have access to reliable arm-candy if the situation is needed. Not to mention having a cool chick to get advice from once in a while is valuable, regardless of the red pill mainstream "never take advice from a female" belief.

The friend zone is real, but only a newbie in game is likely approach the interaction in the way, or to stick as long as to get truly friend zoned. (Like I did numerous times in my past).

The frame is unequivocal from the start, man-to-woman, not friend-to-friend. There's no way girls I want to fuck see me as a friend material.

Quote: (07-13-2013 07:19 AM)AntiTrace Wrote:  

Yes the friend zone can exist. Although the "friend zone" as a player sees it is completely different than how a beta will see it.

Example from my life:

A female friend that goes back to highschool. She understands a woman's place in society and is a conservative. While not being completely religious, she lost her virginity at 23 to a boyfriend of 3+ months. Prior to that she had only done heavy petting with one other guy.

She is practically my partner in crime, as she loves hearing the second hand stories of all my adventures. There may be a few deep dark secrets about me that she doesn't know, but not many. The reverse is also true, as she is comfortable telling me about her secrets.

My frame:

She knows I am sexually interested in her, but not in a "one-itis" type way. No, she knows I am sexually interested in her because of the fact I am sexually interested in all attractive women, because I am a man. She does like the attention and does some minor attention whoring, but shes a female and its her nature.

While she is a long time friend and has seen some the softer more vulnerable sides of me, I maintain the typical red pill alpha role during 95% of our conversations.

-I have my nicknames for her.
+Woprah - white oprah, because she is my go to source for advice
+Lil Husky - she sent me a pic one night before going out asking how she looked. I told her she looked like she was built for the winter.
+Patriot - She has a weakness for men in uniform and secretly wants to fuck the majority of them

-I maintain a sexual frame
+She hears all my stories
+I send her the "Tits or STFU" style text once in a while when she is annoying me
+When she is mad at her boyfriend I encourage her to come over, get drunk, and choke on some bad decisions.
+I tell her which friends of hers I think are cute, and she tries to set me up with them.

-I encouraged her sexual growth
+Prior to her current boyfriend and losing her virginity I would try to set her up with decent guys I know
+She would tell me her desires to blow some military guy, I would tell her its her duty to this country to take a 6 roper across the face.
+When she finally lost her virginity, I told her it was about time and the next logical step was anal.

The results:

-She has never sent me any nude pictures. She claims it would be cheating and unfair to boyfriend. I tell her its about time a female thinks that way.
-She has expressed her interest to blow me several times, telling me if her boyfriend ever breaks up with her she will gladly do it.
-She told me she wished she lost her virginity to me, and asked why I never made a serious move at her.
-She tries some typical attention whoring tactics once in a while, which I shut down fast.
-She sets me up with her friends.
-She is always there when I have a vulnerable moment and need advice.
-Under different circumstances she knows I would fuck her and I know she would fuck me. But it isn't in the cards right now, and I have told her if It ever happened it would be a strict FWB deal and nothing between us would change, or I would cut if off.


So thats the version of "friend-zone" that I am in. That is what I believe a red pill style friend zone is.

Here is some clarification about what I mean when I say "frienfzone":

It sounds like your friend has a crush on you and you could bang her. I'm not talking about how the player decides which girls he wants to put on hold, I'm talking about when a girl tries to control the situation.

You can't really tame a shark.

A girl who says "let's just be friends" could be saying "I have a boyfriend" or "We're not having sex" or whatever...

It's all the same shit.

What is the answer?

There could be a couple of approaches.

Agree, don't argue, and keep on pushing for escalation via slow boil. Act as if what she said didn't mean anything to you.

I turn it against them.

Let's just be friends? Ok, that means it's ok for us to hug more etc. Great. She will get really comfortable with my touch despite what her hamster preaches.

She wants to just be friends? Ok, now she's my annoying little sister.

LJBF? Music to my ears now. I believe that I now have the patience, persistence, and game to beat LJBF.

One day, I'll be inside of her. Maybe we went out for drinks and "made a mistake," but I'll get the notch.


What's interesting about this is I've gotten LJBF recently from an EE and Russian girl after escalating too fast with one and going caveman to the max on the other. Also, after I went caveman on a girl who I do music with and she pulled LJBF, because, I believe, she knew me before my red pill days.

i realized it does exist this one time when i woke up next to this aesthetically unpleasant girl in the morning after wild ass party. she's in my personal friend zone forever.

Yes. I have plenty of female friends. Not all girls want to bang me and I don't want to bang all girls. Does not mean I am going to deny their existence and pretend the only people on the planet are my male friends and girls I want to bang.

Quote: (07-13-2013 04:09 AM)ao85 Wrote:  

Quote: (07-13-2013 03:19 AM)soup Wrote:  

Quote: (07-13-2013 03:09 AM)_DC_ Wrote:  

I have a few female friends I don't want to fuck. Either they're not attractive or married (and I know and respect the guy). If a dude is attracted to her, and shes not super involved with a known entity, than I agree with you.

I don't like to hang around girls that I'm not attracted to.

That's a bit depressing. And what about in the case of if you are trying to lock down a place (if she is a host, bartender, etc...) or get a good connection to get access to high quality females (if she has a job that connects her to beautiful women or has a strong social circle)? In that case wouldn't a friendzone be ideal, to keep things uncomplicated?

You allude to it--that kind of a situation is better defined as a connection, not a friendship.

A good litmus test for what constitutes a friendship with a girl is, "if this girl isn't fucking me, or doesn't supply me with access to attractive girls or otherwise hook me up with things, would I still give this girl my time and/or energy?"

This will cut down dramatically the number of girls that could fall under the definition of friend, because then it's a matter of if her personality per se is worth your time/energy.

And we all know what that means...

Friend zone only exists for betas. For an alpha male, it does not exist, first and foremost as the alpha male does not stick around trying to befriend a women into sex because he's off screwing several other girls. Or he'll meet another dozen in the next week regardless.

I stopped getting friendzoned when I started continually pushing and expressing my intentions. It's one thing to indirectly approach - it's another thing to try indirect game on a date. Don't do that. I'm either out of the battle when I am going in for a kiss and I get some kind of not interested signal - or I'm in when we start making out. There's no either/or in the interaction.

I have some great women friends. Some I have bang and some I have not.

There is a saying: we see the world not as it is but as we are.

soup is the kind of guy that if you asked him what he sees when he looks at the holy cross he will say a vertical and horizontal pussy

Let's try an extreme test case.

Let's say you're the dude Rocky Dennis from the movie "Mask" starring Cher. You've been friendzoned by some cute chick. It might be pretty fucking hard to game your way out of it. Best case scenario, you end up having one desperate night of sex.

It's an extreme case, but the point is simply that yeah, some guys will be friendzoned. There are immutable boundaries to game in terms of: health, age, race, facial symmetry, height, etc.

...

Having said all that, I'd rather the latter-day elephant man follow soups advice and do the best he can.

No. This is something I will not even acquiesce. I haven't been "friendzoned" since maybe once out of high school. F-that. And I don't believe the "friendzone" exists for females either, they've just put you into a different category, or in a holding pattern to serve a purpose, which they refer to as the "friendzone," a hamsterization.

That purpose could be emotional support, this is not a friendship, because they won't make the time to return the favor. Plus, taking emotional advice from a woman is weak as hell, and screams beta blue pill.

I once used this girl at work to bounce things off that happened with girls I hooked up with. Every thing she suggested I did exactly the opposite of to a tee, and everything worked out in my favor on each instance. She knew I'd fuck her but she wasn't gonna let that happen because I got the reputation of being a player and she had a serious LTR live-in boyfriend.

So our little "friendship" consisted of her female mileage experience, all the while letting her hear chosen snippets of my life which was clearly more interesting than hers. This was not a friendship, we used each other. ha. Thanks girly.

"friendzone" is just her way of stating, I won't fuck you now, or I've been fucking you and something better came along, or I know you want to fuck me but it feels good to be wanted so I'll just keep you for the attention and lead you to believe you're my friend.

I never had a problem with a 'friend zone'.

In high school I never made a move.

In my first few years of college/adulthood I started developing game, particularly sexual intent and aggressiveness.

It's better to be too aggressive than not aggressive at all.

This only results in me being too aggressive sometimes, but never do I make the mistake of not letting my intentions be known.

The result is a hard screen, girls that stick around me have accepted my frame and will play along. It is then up to me to play my game cards right, figure out logistics, make her comfortable etc.

You better believe that it exists. I have a few blue pill acquaintances that are content and happy to be in the "friend zone". One guy liked this girl about 5 yrs ago. He asked her out, she said no because she did not want to ruin their "friendship". That is just a nice way of saying no way jose. So he just continues on being the "friend" guy. The proverbial shoulder to cry on when she is arguing with her man at the time. Now she is going out with this guy and now has a kid with him. This guy is still content to be the "friend", he will basically do whatever she says or wants him to do. He is the kids "uncle", and gets on with this girls new guy. How can you stand to be around all this when you know damn well that it is you that wanted to get with this girl in the first place. The kicker is that she isnt even good looking, she is overweight with a pancake ass. Two of the worst combinations in a chick by my standards. I dont say anything because I dont care primarily, and do not care to argue if I pissed him off. So if you dont ask my advice, I do not give any. It is just like a trainwreck in my eyes. If someone is satisfied, who am I to interject? It is just really beyond pathetic to see in real life. Another guy I know is friends with this HB7(I say 7 because with out the 1/4 sleeve chick tattoo, she would be an 8). He is going through the post divorce phase. Going out trying to recapture the youth years wasted by being married. He likes to take this chick to Vegas and go out clubbing, and dropping some Extasy. He takes pics of them both out in Vegas and it is like the commercial where the nerd is making out with the model. I mean it just does not pass the eye test. Girls just do not get with guys like that unless they are either famous, rich, or both. You should see the FB comments from other betas saying "you go guy", "hot chick", "wow lucky guy". He wants people to think they are together. Well let me tell you, that they are definitely not together. He is either paying for her trip, gambling, Extasy, or all of it. That is fine if you are getting the booty at the end of the night, but if not then you are a punk ass bitch in my eyes. So sorry for any bad words, I forgot what is legal or not in this forum. Trust me, the blue pill is alive and well and going strong with some people I know.

I really don't understand what point is being made here. Am I stupid or something?
When a woman puts you in the "friendzone" it's because she is not attracted to you. What is so difficult to understand about that?

1. Not ALL women will be attracted to you and no amount of Game is going to change that.

2. Once you accept No.1 then you have two choices: either accept her as a friend if she offers it or don't interact with her - move on.

How is this a logical impossibility or illogical? If you are not attracted to a woman, would you have a problem being friends with her?

Almost all the time women have said to me they want to be friends, they will never call in a million years which is sort of the minimum requirement for who is a friend: a friend likes you, thus will think of you and seek you out. Women say it to be polite and it's a total lie.

They will ACCEPT, or to be more honest, TOLERATE one-sided attention from you. For me it's a situation where I didn't have nearly enough value to focus them.