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Baker forced to make gay wedding cakes, undergo sensitivity training
06-03-2014, 05:41 PM
That doesn't seem constitutional. I don't understand why you wouldn't just make cakes for gay people, money is money, regardless of who gives it to you, but the government shouldn't be able to force people to support gays.
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Baker forced to make gay wedding cakes, undergo sensitivity training
06-03-2014, 05:57 PM
Agreed Switch. Governments and publicly funded institutions have no right to discriminate, but private firms have every right to discriminate. You have the right to not do business with someone based on a rational or seemingly irrational bias. When you discriminate against someone there is a cost to you, in this case it would be loss of business from not only the gays, but from people who find that bias morally objectionable who will in turn discriminate against your business. If your values are more important than the money you would receive from the people you don't want as customers, then that is your decision and not the courts.
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Baker forced to make gay wedding cakes, undergo sensitivity training
06-03-2014, 06:16 PM
So they're not legally allowed to marry, but he's forced to make a cake. Wonderful.
How do they force someone to make a cake, anyway? Do they send policemen over to watch him do it? And would you really want to eat a cake made under those circumstances? I know I'd be very worried about laxative-flavored cake batter.
[/quote]
Face-palm. So basically he is being forced by the Government to materially aid two others to breach legislation. At least someone is talking some sense:
"Nicolle Martin, an attorney with Alliance Defending Freedom, called the ruling Orwellian and said they are considering an appeal.
'We consider this reporting to be aimed at rehabilitating Jack so that he has the right thoughts,” Martin said. “That’s offensive to everything America stands for.”'
Anyway, surely the happy couple would love a bukkake cake or something.
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Baker forced to make gay wedding cakes, undergo sensitivity training
06-03-2014, 06:37 PM
The thing for me is about the couple. Why would you want to do business with someone who's basically telling them to fuck off at the end of the day? Normally as a consumer you'd be saying fuck off back to the people telling you to fuck off, and not to force them to basically apologise over the course of 2 years and to still do business with them!! And to do that with the full support of the government? It is starting to become really clear WHO is running shit now.
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Baker forced to make gay wedding cakes, undergo sensitivity training
06-03-2014, 06:47 PM
Although I hate the gay agenda and how it's morally wrong to force a man to bake gay cakes, you can't legally refuse to sell something you're advertising in your shop. Once a gay man walks in your shop and gives you money to purchase the item you are selling, the contract is already made without you having to agree to it. So legally speaking, he can't turn down the money to bake cakes just because it's for a gay wedding.
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Baker forced to make gay wedding cakes, undergo sensitivity training
06-03-2014, 07:43 PM
what is this? America is turning into Ontario.
Why do the heathen rage and the people imagine a vain thing? Psalm 2:1 KJV
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Baker forced to make gay wedding cakes, undergo sensitivity training
06-03-2014, 08:06 PM
Headlines 10 years from now:
BAKER DIRECTED TO UNDERGO MANDATORY ANAL PENETRATION IN ORDER TO FULLY UNDERSTAND THE GAY EXPERIENCE
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Baker forced to make gay wedding cakes, undergo sensitivity training
06-03-2014, 08:53 PM
From the article:
"'“Religious freedom is undoubtedly an important American value, but so is the right to be treated equally under the law free from discrimination,”' she said in a statement.
No, my dear. Religious freedom is a CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT."
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So is the right to be treated equally under the law. The correct argument is that the baker isn't violating Constitutional principles because he isn't a state actor, although Heart of Atlanta might suggest otherwise.
I think he should appeal the ALJ/Civil Rights Commission's ruling. Although he sounds like an asshole and has no real moral imperative to deny gays his services, it's patently unfair to compel him to provide them for customers he doesn't want to cover, let alone force him to undergo sensitivity training. In short, he has the right to be that asshole.
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Baker forced to make gay wedding cakes, undergo sensitivity training
06-03-2014, 10:34 PM
Quote:Quote:
The idea is, by lighting up your taxi roof sign or putting goods in your shop's shelf with the price on them, you are already offering to engage in a transaction with whomever the buyer is. Your free will to enter in a transaction is involved here. The government is not dictating anything. When someone walks in and offers you cash, he is accepting your offer and the contract is made. Therefore you are obligated to sell or serve regardless of who the customer is. If you refuse to serve or sell, it's a breach of contract.
For the sake of argument, the counter here is that the taxi driver isn't offering a ride on the roof of his cab. The offer is for a ride in which they who accept will follow custom and sit in the seats.
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Baker forced to make gay wedding cakes, undergo sensitivity training
06-03-2014, 11:23 PM
Kosko has it right. It's an absurd situation, but the baker needed to get with the programme and understand the rules of the game.
My father ran a business for several decades and he did actively discriminate against certain groups of people (not necessarily the ones people would think) in hiring. The only answer he ever gave was "there was a more suitable candidate". Not even a more qualified candidate, but a more suitable candidate, because that's more nebulous. Likewise, because of increasingly draconian firing laws, he used staff agencies increasingly. If he didn't like someone they sent to him, he told the agency "that person's services are no longer required" and nothing else. Then it was up to them to deal with the person involved. Regardless, the person didn't get to work for him a second time.
There is going to be a blow back to all of this. There are always unintended consequences and people get around the law, though that makes society as a whole less based upon the rule of law and more based upon the rule of the tribe, which makes every transaction more expensive and society less cohesive. Anyway, I think we're probably close to that tipping point. Once enough key members of the mainstream lose faith in the rule of law, it's game over.
Most ethnic businesses, I am sure, have two sets of books, two sets of prices, two sets of everything. Chinese restaurants have two sets of menus. Chinese businesses always get involved in local Chinese business associations, called hui, and those hui also act as informal banking agents. I can't be the first white guy who has ever walked into an ethnic business and known by the way everyone there looked at me, even though they did not say anything, that 1) I wasn't meant to be there, 2) I was going to get charged a different price. Mainstream (white) ethnic or religious groups have not figured this stuff out in general yet, but they will. There will be winks, nods, people vouching for you and code words in the future.
As for the baker doing something to the wedding cake, if I were the baker, I would not add anything extra to the cake. I'm sure a sample of the cake will be kept and analysed. There's a simpler thing one could do. Simply under or over bake the cake by 10-15 minutes, or add a little too much or too little of a key ingredient.
"Oh sorry, was there a problem with the cake? I'm flat out at the moment, I must have made a mistake."
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Baker forced to make gay wedding cakes, undergo sensitivity training
06-04-2014, 01:10 AM
You should have the right to refuse service to anybody for any reason. Otherwise, it's called slavery. This gay couple is the moral equivalent of a slaveowner. They have said: "Bake us a cake, or we will use violence against you." The baker does not desire violence with anyone.
