Ukraine conflict lounge - Printable Version
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Ukraine conflict lounge - Icarus - 03-17-2014
Quote: (03-17-2014 07:52 AM)Don Juan Tenorio Wrote:
Brand new attorney general of Russian Crimea
Her name is Natalia Poklonskaya, and she's seriously cute. Why can't career women in the West look like her?
Here are some videos of Natalia:
Ukraine conflict lounge - Big Nilla - 03-17-2014
Reading the article titles on Drudge (oops, I guess that site is offensive to some) I see:
1. Venice votes on cutting ties with Italy
2. Battle in Canada rekindles with Quebec election
3. Scottish independence looms
Well, the West will obviously stay consistent and suppress and not recognize those rebels and their national ambitions. Long live democracy and the free will of the people.
Ukraine conflict lounge - Don Juan Tenorio - 03-17-2014
Quote: (03-17-2014 11:49 AM)Vicious Wrote:
Congratulations to Putin for a well-run campaign. In Jan 2013, 1% of Crimeans said Russia was their homeland. Now 96.6%.
His way of making 123% of all voters get to the poll is also commendable.
https://twitter.com/MaximEristavi/status...2137412608
It is unbelieveble that in a region with near 60% of ethnic Russians, of which lots would be Soviet and Russian veterans and their families, only 1% considered themselves Russian. That said, it is as hard to believe as that the near 30% of ethnic Ukrainians and Crimean tatars are now willing to join the Russian Federation.
Ukraine conflict lounge - Icarus - 03-17-2014
Quote: (03-17-2014 02:19 PM)Don Juan Tenorio Wrote:
It is unbelieveble that in a region with near 60% of ethnic Russians, of which lots would be Soviet and Russian veterans and their families, only 1% considered themselves Russian.
Vicious is playing word games (willingly or otherwise), and you're letting yourself be fooled:
- 96.6% allegedly voted for joining Russia, which is not the same as saying that 96.6% have Russia as their homeland. Besides, what does it mean to say "Russia is my homeland"? Does it mean I was born in Russia? What if my parents are Russian and I was born in Crimea after Crimea was given to the Ukrainian SSR?
- If in January 2013 only 1% of Crimeans said that Russia was their homeland, it could be that only 1% were born in Russian Crimea in between 1944 and 1954. When the Nazis were kicked out in 1944, Stalin forced 100,000s of Crimeans to migrate to other parts of the USSR, since neutrality during the Nazi occupation was viewed as disloyalty. Russians from other regions then moved to Crimea. The Crimean Tatars were all kicked out of Crimea and only returned after the collapse of the USSR. The people who moved to Crimea in 1944 were probably at least 20 years of age, and would be 90 today. Most of them have died by now, probably.
Ukraine conflict lounge - Icarus - 03-17-2014
VICE News footage from Donetsk:
Ukraine conflict lounge - Icarus - 03-17-2014
VICE News footage from Simferopol during the referendum:
Ukraine conflict lounge - jimukr104 - 03-17-2014
Quote: (03-17-2014 02:19 PM)Don Juan Tenorio Wrote:Why is it hard to believe?
Quote: (03-17-2014 11:49 AM)Vicious Wrote:
Congratulations to Putin for a well-run campaign. In Jan 2013, 1% of Crimeans said Russia was their homeland. Now 96.6%.
His way of making 123% of all voters get to the poll is also commendable.
https://twitter.com/MaximEristavi/status...2137412608
It is unbelieveble that in a region with near 60% of ethnic Russians, of which lots would be Soviet and Russian veterans and their families, only 1% considered themselves Russian. That said, it is as hard to believe as that the near 30% of ethnic Ukrainians and Crimean tatars are now willing to join the Russian Federation.
One thing the Ukrainians and Russians are the same ethnicity....there is no separation, its a nationality designation. They share the same culture and other variables that make them the same ethnicity .
You can have a Russian who wants to stay in Ukraine and a Ukrainian who wants to become Russian.
Why is that hard to believe? Russians get paid more and have other benefits.
In the FSU immigration to Russia is like how some immigrants migrate to Canada. There are over 3 million Ukrainians that work in Russia.
Many Tatars boycotted the election. But understand they are very afraid of property rights.
My understanding is most salaries for gov't workers and pensioners will go up 2-3 times in Crimea once it enters Federation.
My only concern is what is going to happen to private businesses. Many are tourist related and the tourist industry might be put on hold this year.
Since Crimea and UA don't recognize each other(yet)..I wonder how they will manage cooperation.
Ukraine conflict lounge - Roosh - 03-17-2014
Vicious: the link you shared claiming 123% of people voted is from a Ukraine newspaper. Do you have any other sources on that claim?
Ukraine conflict lounge - Vicious - 03-17-2014
Quote: (03-17-2014 11:59 AM)Icarus Wrote:
Quote: (03-17-2014 11:49 AM)Vicious Wrote:
In Jan 2013, 1% of Crimeans said Russia was their homeland. Now 96.6%.
I find it very hard to believe those figures when everyone knows that well over 1% of Crimean citizens are ethnic Russians.
And what does that tell you about the veracity about these polls in general.
But it's priceless how you "find it very hard to believe" a figure that is statistically possible over one that is impossible!
![[Image: 07-minister.jpg]](http://www.welovetheiraqiinformationminister.com/images/07-minister.jpg)
Ukraine conflict lounge - Vicious - 03-17-2014
Quote: (03-17-2014 05:18 PM)Roosh Wrote:
Vicious: the link you shared claiming 123% of people voted is from a Ukraine newspaper. Do you have any other sources on that claim?
The source is from the actual referendum (which is pictured) so I don't know how you can get more official than that.
Here's one showing the same referendum:
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl...&sandbox=1
Ukraine conflict lounge - Icarus - 03-17-2014
Quote: (03-17-2014 05:24 PM)Vicious Wrote:
But it's priceless how you "find it very hard to believe" a figure that is statistically possible over one that is impossible!
That is not what I wrote. What you wrote on that post was intellectually dishonest and ambiguous ad nauseam. I am not talking about statistics, but about definitions.
And please watch your tone, mister.
Ukraine conflict lounge - jimukr104 - 03-17-2014
Quote: (03-17-2014 05:37 PM)Icarus Wrote:
Quote: (03-17-2014 05:24 PM)Vicious Wrote:
But it's priceless how you "find it very hard to believe" a figure that is statistically possible over one that is impossible!
That is not what I wrote. What you wrote on that post was intellectually dishonest and ambiguous ad nauseam. I am not talking about statistics, but about definitions.
And please watch your tone, mister.
Ukraine conflict lounge - Icarus - 03-17-2014
Quote: (03-17-2014 05:47 PM)jimukr104 Wrote:
He wants his country to win Ukraine.. Not Russia.
I don't care what he wants. One's homeland is a legal fact. One's vote is one's decision. Conflating the two is confusing. My nationality is not determined via referenda.
Ukraine conflict lounge - Vicious - 03-17-2014
Quote: (03-17-2014 05:37 PM)Icarus Wrote:
Quote: (03-17-2014 05:24 PM)Vicious Wrote:
But it's priceless how you "find it very hard to believe" a figure that is statistically possible over one that is impossible!
That is not what I wrote. What you wrote on that post was intellectually dishonest and ambiguous ad nauseam. I am not talking about statistics, but about definitions.
And please watch your tone, mister.
What tone? My nationality is being attacked here for the 2nd time now. Something far more blatant and that has NOTHING to do with the thread. So I really can't take that statement seriously.
If you have a problem with my posts report it and let Roosh and Tuth make the decision. Again, I will respect whatever it is.
But YOU are NOT a mod. So keep your fake calls for civility. They merely sound like attempts to manipulate said mods and control the information..
Regarding what Crimeans consider their Homeland:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/monk...in-russia/
But since WP is considered to be western propaganda by default here another source is the one below. It "only" gives a 23% figure. But that is still far from 96%
http://www.iri.org/sites/default/files/2...202013.pdf
Ukraine conflict lounge - Icarus - 03-17-2014
Quote: (03-17-2014 06:04 PM)Vicious Wrote:
But since WP is considered to be western propaganda by default here another source is the one below. It "only" gives a 23% figure. But that is still far from 96%
There is a difference between "I consider my homeland to be XYZ", and "My nationality is XYZ". Facts and opinions are different things.
The problem is that you use sloppy language and don't define your terms carefully, and then demand nothing less than absolute precision from others. If you want to hold others to high standards, that is fine, but you should also hold yourself to such standards.
Ukraine conflict lounge - Vicious - 03-17-2014
Quote: (03-17-2014 06:16 PM)Icarus Wrote:
The problem is that you use sloppy language and don't define your terms carefully, and then demand nothing less than absolute precision from others.
What are you talking about?
Are we seriously arguing semantics?
Where/when have I demanded absolute precision?
Ukraine conflict lounge - Icarus - 03-17-2014
Quote: (03-17-2014 06:22 PM)Vicious Wrote:
What are you talking about? Are we seriously arguing semantics?
You wrote the following:
Quote:Quote:
In Jan 2013, 1% of Crimeans said Russia was their homeland. Now 96.6%.
Please tell me in which planet the statement above makes any sense. Was the referendum held to decide what percentage of Crimeans consider themselves Russian? I don't think so. So, before accusing others of ignoring statistics due to ideological blindness, you may want to try to compare apples to apples first.
Ukraine conflict lounge - Vicious - 03-17-2014
Yes you keep saying this. It is duly noted.
I've posted multiple sources elaborating in great detail on that statement. It's all there out in the open.
That you keep arguing semantics and ignoring the message I see merely as a straw man and I won't entertain it.
Ukraine conflict lounge - jimukr104 - 03-17-2014
Quote: (03-17-2014 06:29 PM)Icarus Wrote:It seems Crimean's consider Crimea their homeland.. that makes sense!
Quote: (03-17-2014 06:22 PM)Vicious Wrote:
What are you talking about? Are we seriously arguing semantics?
You wrote the following:
Quote:Quote:
In Jan 2013, 1% of Crimeans said Russia was their homeland. Now 96.6%.
Please tell me in which planet the statement above makes any sense. Was the referendum held to decide what percentage of Crimeans consider themselves Russian? I don't think so. So, before accusing others of ignoring statistics due to ideological blindness, you may want to try to compare apples to apples first.
Not UA or RU..because they are Crimean.
Ukraine conflict lounge - Icarus - 03-17-2014
Quote: (03-17-2014 06:34 PM)jimukr104 Wrote:
It seems Crimean's consider Crimea their homeland.. that makes sense!
And who are the "Crimeans"? The Crimean Russians? The Crimean Ukrainians? The Crimean Tatars? Crimea is not a mono-ethnic republic.
Back in January 2013 no one in Crimea could believe that 14 months later they would be joining the Russian Federation. Polls reflect the information people have available at the time, and what options they have. The information they have available now is very, very different.
If being Russian was not an option in January 2013, it's natural for people not to consider themselves Russian. They can consider themselves ethnic Russians instead.
Ukraine conflict lounge - jimukr104 - 03-17-2014
Quote: (03-17-2014 06:41 PM)Icarus Wrote:below
Quote: (03-17-2014 06:34 PM)jimukr104 Wrote:
It seems Crimean's consider Crimea their homeland.. that makes sense!
And who are the "Crimeans"? The Crimean Russians? The Crimean Ukrainians? The Crimean Tatars? Crimea is not a mono-ethnic republic.
Back in January 2013 no one in Crimea could believe that 14 months later they would be joining the Russian Federation. Polls reflect the information people have available at the time, and what options they have. The information they have available now is very, very different.
If being Russian was not an option in January 2013, it's natural for people not to consider themselves Russian. They can consider themselves ethnic Russians instead.
Ukraine conflict lounge - jimukr104 - 03-17-2014
Quote: (03-17-2014 06:41 PM)Icarus Wrote:First Russians and Ukrainians are the same ethnicity since they share in that region most of the variables that designate an ethnic group (a few of us explained that already). Tatars and even Cossack s have been designated a separate ethnicity.
Quote: (03-17-2014 06:34 PM)jimukr104 Wrote:
It seems Crimean's consider Crimea their homeland.. that makes sense!
And who are the "Crimeans"? The Crimean Russians? The Crimean Ukrainians? The Crimean Tatars? Crimea is not a mono-ethnic republic.
Back in January 2013 no one in Crimea could believe that 14 months later they would be joining the Russian Federation. Polls reflect the information people have available at the time, and what options they have. The information they have available now is very, very different.
If being Russian was not an option in January 2013, it's natural for people not to consider themselves Russian. They can consider themselves ethnic Russians instead.
if you look at the graph it shows that people who live in Crimea answer Crimea is their homeland. Makes sense since they have been an autonomous republic.
Kind of like people from NYC answering "NEW YORKER" instead American when asked. I believe citizens of Crimea consider them selves separated from the mainland and have their own opinion about themselves. You will notice no other region did folks consider the region thier homeland.
But does it really matter?They want out because Ukraine has a different revolution every few years and they are sick of nationalists, lack of fundage to pay for services, late gov't checks, and living in a country that is unstable and will get more in coming years. Heck they would join even Canada if they were offered better pay and stuff.
Ukraine conflict lounge - Roosh - 03-17-2014
Let's relax our emotions and learn from the Hencredible incident barely a week ago.
Ukraine conflict lounge - worldwidetraveler - 03-17-2014
Quote: (03-17-2014 06:41 PM)Icarus Wrote:
Quote: (03-17-2014 06:34 PM)jimukr104 Wrote:
It seems Crimean's consider Crimea their homeland.. that makes sense!
And who are the "Crimeans"? The Crimean Russians? The Crimean Ukrainians? The Crimean Tatars? Crimea is not a mono-ethnic republic.
Back in January 2013 no one in Crimea could believe that 14 months later they would be joining the Russian Federation. Polls reflect the information people have available at the time, and what options they have. The information they have available now is very, very different.
If being Russian was not an option in January 2013, it's natural for people not to consider themselves Russian. They can consider themselves ethnic Russians instead.
A large amount of people, in that area, do believe they are Russian even if they were born in Ukraine.
How much time have you spent there? I am trying to understand where you are coming from because it sounds like you've never been there.
Ukraine conflict lounge - gosh - 03-17-2014
Quote: (03-17-2014 05:35 PM)Vicious Wrote:
Quote: (03-17-2014 05:18 PM)Roosh Wrote:
Vicious: the link you shared claiming 123% of people voted is from a Ukraine newspaper. Do you have any other sources on that claim?
The source is from the actual referendum (which is pictured) so I don't know how you can get more official than that.
Here's one showing the same referendum:
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl...&sandbox=1
The statement that 123% people voted is a lie that's already have been debunked. If you speak Russian watch this from about 3 min mark:
Summary: total count given by election officials was not 1 724 563 as claimed in "123%" article, but 1 524 563. In Sevastopol 274 136 instead of 474 137 claimed.
So, there is no 123%.