[Lothario]

(11-25-2011 03:17 PM)Zep Wrote:  

This guys timing and precision....four dudes...

Zep you beat me to it, I have seen this video before and was going to post it as well.......

I'm also thinking that Boxers can win a street fight quickly like witnessed in this video...

I'm surprised G hasn't chimed in yet........

[MikeCF]

If you're in a situation with "multiple attackers," pull out your gun.

[Zep]

Quote:

Zep you beat me to it, I have seen this video before and was going to post it as well.......

Yea, it's really impressive. That's a real street fight, if he got taken to the ground ... three other guys to start kicking his head in. If I were to train for street fights, it's two, three moves max that I'd master, get them down pat. Or....run.

[Donald Duck]

Even if I would be trained in boxing I wouldn't want to face more than 1 opponent. Running is the best martial art.

[MikeCF]

How many guys posting have been in 10+ street fights? 25+? 50+?

People who actually fight in the streets, and actually fight in rings and cages, there really isn't any disagreement.

You train boxing/thai boxing AND wrestling/jiu jitsu.

It's only the guys who haven't ever fought and live in fantastyland where there are multiple attackers around every corner, who go for the voo-doo pseudo martial arts.

It's like taking game advice from a virgin.

[worldwidetraveler]

(11-25-2011 04:47 PM)MikeCF Wrote:  

How many guys posting have been in 10+ street fights? 25+? 50+?

People who actually fight in the streets, and actually fight in rings and cages, there really isn't any disagreement.

You train boxing/thai boxing AND wrestling/jiu jitsu.

It's only the guys who haven't ever fought and live in fantastyland where there are multiple attackers around every corner, who go for the voo-doo pseudo martial arts.

It's like taking game advice from a virgin.

lol Typical response, now you will tell us it is Beta to worry about multiple attackers. You did make me laugh asking about 10+ streetfights. I have fought enough to worry about multiple attackers but now I only qualify if there are at least 10 streetfights.

Any video on 2 or more attackers would suffice.

Someone is living in fantastyland here thinking everyone will fight by rules in a cage. I do agree with your selection of martial arts. I don't think you could go wrong with that line up besides a weapon based one. I haven't seen any called voo-doo but something to check out for sure.

[MikeCF]

(11-25-2011 04:58 PM)worldwidetraveler Wrote:  

Someone is living in fantastyland here thinking everyone will fight by rules in a cage.

It's much scarier to get into a ring or cage.

In a street fight, you're in the moment. You just move aggressively.

With a planned fight, it's much more intense.

I'd encourage you to coolly walk into a cage. Wait several minutes while the fighters are named. Listen to the cage get locked.

Look across at a guy who isn't some random street thug, but is a guy who trains several hours a day, and who enjoys getting punched in the face.

You'll be thinking a lot of things. It's 100% guaranteed you won't be thinking, "Thank god there are rules."

It's something you gotta do to understand...

[worldwidetraveler]

(11-25-2011 05:17 PM)MikeCF Wrote:  

It's much scarier to get into a ring or cage.

In a street fight, you're in the moment. You just move aggressively.

With a planned fight, it's much more intense.

I'd encourage you to coolly walk into a cage. Wait several minutes while the fighters are named. Listen to the cage get locked.

Look across at a guy who isn't some random street thug, but is a guy who trains several hours a day, and who enjoys getting punched in the face.

You'll be thinking a lot of things. It's 100% guaranteed you won't be thinking, "Thank god there are rules."

It's something you gotta do to understand...

Mike, I am not putting down cage fighting. I haven't done it and have no interest in it but do agree the person has some balls for doing it.

This thread was about self defence, not cage fighting. You don't just worry about one attacker but always should be worried about many, even if there is only one. You really don't know what to expect.

I try to avoid any of this shit to be honest. Sometimes you don't have a choice.

[RichieP]

Good discussion guys.

So to the guys that have done Krav, is it really the real deal? I've heard mixed things about whether they actually get you doing enough full-contact sparring, taking hits and throwing them full power, etc. Does it depend on the school?

[UgSlayer]

(11-25-2011 05:17 PM)MikeCF Wrote:  

(11-25-2011 04:58 PM)worldwidetraveler Wrote:  

Someone is living in fantastyland here thinking everyone will fight by rules in a cage.

It's much scarier to get into a ring or cage.

In a street fight, you're in the moment. You just move aggressively.

With a planned fight, it's much more intense.

I'd encourage you to coolly walk into a cage. Wait several minutes while the fighters are named. Listen to the cage get locked.

Look across at a guy who isn't some random street thug, but is a guy who trains several hours a day, and who enjoys getting punched in the face.

You'll be thinking a lot of things. It's 100% guaranteed you won't be thinking, "Thank god there are rules."

It's something you gotta do to understand...

I've competed in grappling tournaments, wrestled in front of thousands of people, and I'd pick that over a street fight any day.

In competition, there is training, and for the most part, mutual respect involved. There are refs to stop the fight if you are physically unable to defend yourself. There is honor. In a street fight, there is no honor. There are no rules. You could be dominating the guy, have him up against the wall in a front headlock or clinch, kneeing the shit out of him or have him in a tight standing guillotine where he's gurgling and passing out. Then you get stabbed or punched by his friend.

[UgSlayer]

(11-25-2011 05:36 PM)RichieP Wrote:  

Good discussion guys.

So to the guys that have done Krav, is it really the real deal? I've heard mixed things about whether they actually get you doing enough full-contact sparring, taking hits and throwing them full power, etc. Does it depend on the school?

Back on track.

I think with Krav Maga, it really depends on your instructor. I've heard of schools just doing step by step bullshit. Then I've heard of schools where they put a fake weapons on the ground and you have to wrestle each other and scrape and punch to see who gets it to first. No technique except what your muscle memory allows. Survival shit.

Like anything, live sparring and full out training is important and the only way to get a feel for the mechanics and fundamentals.

Take a guy who has read every bjj technique out there, logically knows how to throw a leg kick, a right hook, every combo in the book. Say he's been at this for 6 years.

Put him against a guy who actually has 6 months of mat/ring time but only knows a 1-2 or 1-2-3 combo, knows how to throw a double or hell even a sag headlock, knows how to sprawl, and the only submissions he knows are the guillotine with one setup and a kimura with one setup, and he'll fuck the textbook warrior up every time.

Also, if you really know you're going to throw down, make sure you scream at the top of your lungs: "STAY BACK. I DON'T WANT TO FIGHT BUT IF YOU ATTACK ME I WILL HAVE TO DEFEND MYSELF! IF YOU STEP FORWARD I WILL TAKE THAT AS AN ACT OF AGGRESSION AND ASSAULT AND I WILL HAVE TO DEFEND MYSELF!"

They may back down. If they step forward, punch him right in the nose with no further warning and you win. Most guys can't take a punch to the nose and recover within a couple of minutes. That's enough time for you to escape if you are outnumbered or gloat if his friends cower away. Also, saying that will give you more leeway with the police if they get on the scene.

[YoungGunner]

(11-25-2011 05:36 PM)RichieP Wrote:  

Good discussion guys.

So to the guys that have done Krav, is it really the real deal? I've heard mixed things about whether they actually get you doing enough full-contact sparring, taking hits and throwing them full power, etc. Does it depend on the school?

It does depend on the school, but if you have any questions check for Krav Maga Worldwide schools near you. Whether you're sparing or hitting pads they always make sure you hit full force. Some schools allow you to pick your rules for sparring, i.e whether you want just punches and kicks or whether you want to include head-buts, knees and groin kicks. Basically, what's legal when sparring with your partner is up to you and him/her, but most people at my school, because they want to get good, include everything, including elbows which many schools don't allow because the impact even with headgear can give you a cut. If you give me info as to where you're at I might be able to find other good schools near you.

If you have any questions about Krav Maga check this out:

http://www.kravmaga.com/forum/

[UgSlayer]

Third post in a row, but in any REAL self defense class, they should be teaching you position, create space, escape.

That is, getting into a position, whether dominant or not, that you can create space. Then pushing away to create the space or breaking grips to create the space, then escaping the harmful situation. Any other self defense course is blowing smoke up your ass.

That is survival. You are getting attacked. If you're talking about pride, and some guy picking a fight with you outside of the bar, the solution is simple. Walk away.

If you are vindictive and get off on revenge and winning the ego battle, the solution is a bit more complicated but very satisfying. Call the cops posing as a woman. Say he groped you and describe him perfectly. Cops come, question him, he gets aggressive. Pretty soon he is getting dragged away in cuffs and you laugh at him while walking back into the bar. Never actually tried this, because I rarely get into physical altercations and nobody really fucks with me, but it would be fun to watch this go down.

Sure, you can get in trouble and it's immoral, but who really is going to pursue that?

[YoungGunner]

"You don't just worry about one attacker but always should be worried about many, even if there is only one. You really don't know what to expect.

"I try to avoid any of this shit to be honest. Sometimes you don't have a choice."


That's why I recommend Krav Maga to be the primary source of technique over other arts.

If you do a ring sport you're expecting a fight, whereas in a self-defense scenario someone might get the jump on you and if you can't react you're fucked.

If you do a ring sport where there are rules and most likely the other person isn't trying to KILL you like a rapid psychotic criminal (e.g, won't be trying to blind you with their fingers and spit or rip out your trachea so you're distracted while they knee you in the groin) you won't be prepared
or know how to defend ASAP

If you're expecting a fistfight when in fact you're in a knife/stick/bottle fight, and the other person is drawing a knife or had one hidden unbeknownst to you while you're focused on how you're gonna throw and elbow or shoot it for a takedown you're going to get whacked/sliced/stabbed badly, maybe fatally. In the case of a knife all they'd have to do is hold it up strong while you throw your punch, elbow, or entire body onto it and you've either got your arm ripped open or a knife 3 or more inches in your body, more than enough to kill you.

I'm not saying the other martial arts are useless, quite the contrary since they help you with the power and execution of your techniques, but you should learn the technique themselves from Krav Maga


Edit: "That is, getting into a position, whether dominant or not, that you can create space. Then pushing away to create the space or breaking grips to create the space, then escaping the harmful situation. Any other self defense course is blowing smoke up your ass.

That is survival. You are getting attacked. If you're talking about pride, and some guy picking a fight with you outside of the bar, the solution is simple. Walk away."

=Krav Maga

[UgSlayer]

(11-25-2011 06:25 PM)YoungGunner Wrote:  

I'm not saying the other martial arts are useless, quite the contrary since they help you with the power and execution of your techniques, but you should learn the technique themselves from Krav Maga

Agreed, but only partially. I don't believe it's the techniques, but the foundation and mindset of Krav Maga. Being fully aware of all possibilities. Like when you step into a wrestling room, you're never thinking "ok I can pull this armdrag so I can shift his weight to create an opening to escape". You're thinking "I'll use this armdrag setup to an outside single so I can take him down and work some pinning combinations".

Disclaimer: I've never actually trained Krav Maga, only heard anecdotes and youtube videos.

[MikeCF]

(11-25-2011 06:25 PM)YoungGunner Wrote:  

If you do a ring sport where there are rules and most likely the other person isn't trying to KILL you like a rapid psychotic criminal (e.g, won't be trying to blind you with their fingers and spit or rip out your trachea so you're distracted while they knee you in the groin) you won't be prepared
or know how to defend ASAP

Oh boy.

Most street fights do not involve people wanting to KILL you, unless you're visiting biker bars or the ghetto.

This thread is unrealistic as to what threat a person actually faces "in the streets."

Again, my expertise is based on over 100 fights in the "streets" and lots of training and competiting in MMA and other combat sports.

Also, when Krav Maga guys come to the gym, they get wrecked. The level of instruction is not high enough.

The idea that BJJ training isn't transferrable to the streets is laughable, and is refuted by hundreds of YOuTube videos.

Now, another ignorant argument is being exposed. Namely that BJJ means you go to the ground.

Grabbling is about CONTROL of the fight. IN a fight, I wont' go to the ground.

This guy, in the video, clearly has grappling training. Any student of grappling will notice his takedown defense.

The uninformed, however, will see only "boxing."

Bottom line. You can listen to guys who have been in dozens of fights (think members of the Gracie family, guys who train at boxing and MMA guys) or guys who basically virgins.

[UgSlayer]

MikeCF, I'm pretty sure we're saying the same thing when it comes to the useful parts of grappling. Staying in a good position. The reason the Krav Maga dudes get stomped in your gym is because they train to escape. It's a different game.

They're not training to stay in the pocket and throwing straight punches and body shots. Nor are they training to pass guard and get into a position to submit. They're training to stay aware and create distance.

Mount escapes and basic sweeps are all someone has to master to survive on the ground in a street fight.

You say you've in in a 100+ street fights. Were all of those fights fair and one on one?

PS. Most of those "street fights" that the Gracies won were through the Gracie Challenge, where they would invite anyone to fight inside their gym or go challenge other gyms or set up a meet. They were always one on one and always had rules and a sense of honor. Not what I would call a typical street fight.

Plus, that vid, where do you see CLEARLY any grappling training? It looks like maybe he had a couple of boxing lessons. The other guys walk up to him hands down heads up they're just asking to get knocked out. If you mean at 1:07 when that fat guy tries to grab the puncher's shirt and the puncher steps back, it just looks like the fat guy slips and the puncher moves out of the way. Hardly takedown defense. Probably just instinct because someone is coming toward him.

[speakeasy]

MikeCF what kind of gym do you train at, the one where the KM guys are getting beat? Is it boxing? MT, BJJ? And also, were they evenly matched? Those KM guys may have been level 1 or 2 students, vs guys that have been fighting for years.

I see KM as being a system that gives you a bit of effective techniques from every system. It sort of makes you a jack of all trades but master of none. Then throw in some things like dealing with weapons, knives, guns, bats and all types of escapes.

I've spoken to people who know their shit on martial arts. What many people feel is that KM is great for giving a novice the basics of fight in a condensed format. It's fairly straight-forward and easy to learn. It's an efficient fight system that can take someone who has never been in a fight in his life and have him ready to handle himself in the street within months if he's dedicated. That's why many military and police academies choose KM(or something similar to it) when training their men for street combat, as opposed to training them in BJJ or Kyokushin Karate which may be very effective but have steeper learning curves.

KM and MMA have different goals. A street fight rarely last more than a minute. KM is about teaching people to end a fight quickly. Strikes to the knee, the groin, throat punches, eye gouges, it's all fair game if it means getting home alive. In a MMA, boxing or MT gym, you have rules, you also have a lot more focus on conditioning, because your fight may be going on for more than half an hour in the ring. Remember guys, what works in the ring may not translate to the street and vice versa. A BJJ is completely useless if your opponent has even one friend around, which is usually the case. However it's a necessity in the cage. And you will never need any KM knife disarm techniques in the cage.

So think of KM as a great way to teach a fight newbie the basics of how to handle himself in the street in a short amount of time. But other styles like MMA, boxing, MT, BJJ as being styles you'd learn if you have a lot of time to dedicate to it and you have plans on fighting in the ring. KM does not teach you to be a competitive fighter. KM is about doing whatever you got to do in a situation with no rules to end the fight. A boxer might be able to outslug me and a BJJ guy may outgrapple me, but they haven't been trained to take away a gun from someone at close range or defend yourself against someone with a bat.

[YoungGunner]

(11-25-2011 06:37 PM)MikeCF Wrote:  

(11-25-2011 06:25 PM)YoungGunner Wrote:  

If you do a ring sport where there are rules and most likely the other person isn't trying to KILL you like a rapid psychotic criminal (e.g, won't be trying to blind you with their fingers and spit or rip out your trachea so you're distracted while they knee you in the groin) you won't be prepared
or know how to defend ASAP

Oh boy.

Most street fights do not involve people wanting to KILL you, unless you're visiting biker bars or the ghetto.

This thread is unrealistic as to what threat a person actually faces "in the streets."

Again, my expertise is based on over 100 fights in the "streets" and lots of training and competiting in MMA and other combat sports.

Also, when Krav Maga guys come to the gym, they get wrecked. The level of instruction is not high enough.

The idea that BJJ training isn't transferrable to the streets is laughable, and is refuted by hundreds of YOuTube videos.

Now, another ignorant argument is being exposed. Namely that BJJ means you go to the ground.

Grabbling is about CONTROL of the fight. IN a fight, I wont' go to the ground.

This guy, in the video, clearly has grappling training. Any student of grappling will notice his takedown defense.

The uninformed, however, will see only "boxing."

Bottom line. You can listen to guys who have been in dozens of fights (think members of the Gracie family, guys who train at boxing and MMA guys) or guys who basically virgins.

Maybe most fights on the street don't involve someone trying to kill you, but the OP asks for self defense, and the highest level and basis of self-defense is to stop someone trying to kill you. If someone isn't trying to kill you or cause you great bodily harm or injury, then there are few reasons why you need to be in the fight in the first place.

-What was the skill level of Krav Maga students who got beaten at your gym? If the Krav Maga student was relatively inexperienced in his training relative to the cage fighter in his, then it would make sense that the Krav Maga Student would lose. But, more importantly, what were the rules of the fight when they got beaten? Asking a Krav Maga student to fight with rules is like asking a boxer to fight with one hand tied behind their back. Unless there were no rules to that fight and any dirty trick was allowed, and the fighter weren't allowed to pick up nearby objects as weapons, they weren't really using Krav Maga and that doesn't prove the art is less effective.


-Most Krav Maga instructors have either been in the front lines of the military (where they actually have to use hand to hand) or law enforcement where they've had to use hand to hand on and off duty(prior to learning Krav Maga), so they're qualified in their approval of the techniques. Gracie and other instructors may have been in professional fights and trained professional fighters, but I'd like to see what techniques they'd use to survive if their life was in serious danger and surprise attacked. Again, we differ here on the purpose of self defense/training, so for you that might not be an accurate test of the legitimacy of their advice. And, even if they managed to defend themselves using their respective arts, it would take years for the a normal person to reach that level of skill, not practical for the OP.

-You might not want to go to the ground in a fight, but if someone attacks you from behind unexpectedly and you go to the ground (think mugging or rape), you're probably better off getting off of the ground immediately. Control in itself against a wild or enraged attacker is hard, but if they get the jump on you it's even harder.

-I train BJJ (blue belt) and I recognize that some techniques CAN be used in street fighting, but using them is also risky and energy-draining, as do the Krav Maga instructors who cross-train and are BJJ blackbelts under either Alliance or Gracie schools.Why limit yourself to BJJ on the ground when you fight cheap to get the fight back up standing or just kick them away? Don't think I'm dissing BJJ, as they're are plenty of overlap technique between Krav Maga and BJJ and one should train both, but as far as far as self defense is concerned your time would be better spent in Krav Maga.

[Agent_008]

I have a black belt in tae kwon do, been doing it for over 8 years. Tae kwon do is focused mainly on kicks. I've found that if you can learn to use your legs well in a fight you can gain a big advantage due to the distance at which you can hit your opponent, and also because your legs are much more powerful than your arms. plus most people don't even consider you using your legs against them.

[hydrogonian]

I've been in quite a few street fights, of course much more so in my younger years (I live in a shitty neighborhood - grew up here - can't wait to move), and I have to disagree about the wrestling not being a key skill in fights.

I was a student of martial arts for several years, and I'm quite positive that when it comes down to street fights, other then boxing (which I'm not skilled in other than being self taught with trial and error to a degree) that nothing trumps wrestling skill in a fight. Boxing dominates while your on your feet and wrestling dominates in every other instance.

The caveat is that you actually have to have been good at wrestling (there are a LOT of time wasters in the wrestling room) and you have to have exploited your time in the wrestling room to the end of making your mind as tough as possible. Also, you have to have a degree of strength to be able to execute. If you weigh 135 lbs and you're fighting someone who is 180 who isn't a pussy, then wrestling may just keep you alive a little longer. But, I challenge ANY non-wrestler of similar weight to beat a good winning wrestler in a street fight. Unless you get lucky and knock him out, then your not going to win. Your just not. First of all, he's almost certainly going to be tougher than you are, mentally. They just train to push themselves more consistently and longer than most people in any other sport, putting themselves in extreme mental and physical pain/exhaustion, while executing the moves that will dominate another person. Your going to put him in pain, which can include punches and kicks, and he's going to keep coming in a skilled manner in terms of dominating you once he inevitably gets you of of your feet, which he will pretty fast. You have a limited time to do anything with a good wrestler who is being aggressive in a fight. When I think 'good' wrestler, I think of a guy who can place in a state tournament. As the wrestler gets heavier, and his technique becomes more dependent on strength instead of speed and pure technique, then his wrestling skill tends to become more applicable for a street-fight. After all, you aren't going to execute a low ankle pick in a street fight ( a popular take-down technique that lightweight wrestlers gravitate to)

Now, you may not LOSE if you go up against a wrestler, as anything can happen to keep anyone from decisively winning, but I don't think that you can win in most instances.

Compared to wrestling, MA are pretty useless to me other than allowing me to deflect MA style punch and kick attacks. I can be sloppy with MA guys, on my feet. With boxers, not so.

In no instance will someone beat a wrestler once you are off your feet, unless you twist his nuts off or throw a knockout punch from the ground. If you aren't trained in at least basic grappling, then you will likely not get into a position to throw a punch. I disagree that JJ style grappling training is a s good as wrestling training. Its not. Wrestling takes a long time to learn, well, and is too nuanced. At least if you want to get halfway decent at it, to the point where you don't lose so dramatically. To get actually good, to where you can use it to dominate a streefight and to win wrestling matches, is another level of commitment. Time and effort is all that it takes, but a lot of it. All prolonged street-fights, unless you are fighting a boxer, will go to the ground. The core of MMA fighting is wrestling, for a reason. These opinions are born out of my sole experience. I'm cool with anybody and everybody disagreeing with them.

I recommend boxing for someone who is out of high school and wants to get started on a self defense curriculum, with no foundation in anything else, hands down. After you get very good, then go and complete your training with grappling and other MMA style techniques. Make sure someone teaches you folkstyle/freestyle wrestling take-downs and take-down defense, though. You will need a lot of practice with both.

If you are still in high school, the join the wrestling team, without question. Its very difficult to learn wrestling once you are past high school, as you simply won't get enough practice to get anywhere significant with it.

[speakeasy]

I totally agree with Hydro here. Wrestling and boxing are a winning combo. I may even look to join a boxing gym next year.

[Giovonny]

Fighting is similar to Game. Some guys are naturals, they are born into athletic, fighting families, maybe their grandfather, dad or older brothers schooled them from a young age. He was raised to fight and be tough. These guys have decades of experience over some guy who is just learning the basics. In Game, this would be a good looking guy who is naturally charismatic, a natural. He will always have an advantage over the guy who started late.

You can't take a few mma classes and think you are gonna beat up this guy.

Some guys have God given talent. (athleticism, power, speed, ferociousness) This guy has more natural fighting talent. He has a huge advantage over an out of shape, uncoordinated, non-athlete. After years of training, this guy still might not have the talent and skill to defend himself against a better athlete/fighter.

Just like Game, non-naturals have to work for years just to have a chance.

Thats why many guys skip the hard work and just get hookers and guns.

[tallglassofmilk]

My recommendation is Silat. It is about putting the other guy down as quickly as possible regardless of the means. The assumption built into it is that there are multiple attackers and they are armed. I study a little bit of silat and know, personally, people who have used it in street situations i.e. preventing rape and theft.

If you can find a good teacher, I would also recommend picking up one of the internal arts--e.g. Hsing-I, bagua, taijiquan, because you will probably be able to use them when you are in your eighties and nineties.

With that being said, it really depends on what you are looking for. Most street fights are issues of pride and asserting dominance over one another and as such have unspoken rules, no groin shots and eye gouges, don't do things which would prevent reconciliation in the future. If you are anticipating being in these situations then you probably want to supplement your training with a "nicer" martial art or martial art combo. The same probably applies to Krav Maga, but I don't know much about it so will avoid saying much on the subject.

[hydrogonian]

I just watched the initially posted video again. I held off because I've seen it before. I consider it an okay video, but not great. The guy has a good stance and does a good job of fighting off attackers by throwing some well placed punches, but his stance is necessarily defensive (because of so many people) and I thought that some of those guys went down a little too easy. I'm sure that the video is real, but its just that the guys attacking him were absolute clowns and it isn't that instructive as to what makes a good fighting technique (because he is essentially just backing up and throwing punches as people lunge at him).

Now, this video is one of the best that I've ever seen, and fully illustrates the power of even half-decent boxing technique, imo: