Quote: (11-22-2011 04:04 AM)hydrogonian Wrote:
Quote: (11-21-2011 09:46 PM)Timoteo Wrote:
Your honesty is admirable, but honestly, even the most level-headed citizen can't really handle the responsibility of carrying a weapon. The more folks carrying, the more likely something is going to happen. Unless you're a knucklehead that lives in a really rough area (and knuckleheads are usually LOOKING for trouble), you don't need to be carrying. I'm all for home protection though, and going to the range to squeeze off.
Buddy, I sort of get where your coming from, but your way off. Your opinion comes from a self-interested and irrational superiority, no offense.
Becoming a cop doesn't somehow impart the ability to handle a gun more responsibly then a well trained citizen can. The logic is flawed. Also, cops certainly aren't more moral. Oh, they're supposed to be. But that hasn't been my experience. I've seen cops beat people up who didn't do a thing on several occasions, once on my front lawn, and I hear them talk when they are off duty. From a philosophical standpoint ,which is the territory that you breached, you can't make a logical case for cops being the only ones allowed to carry unless that moral superiority can be demonstrated. Additionally, its been ruled that its not a cops duty to protect a citizen. They just have to report the crime and apprehend the offender. However, legally, they are not under any obligation to protect you from a maniac. Therefore, the onus is on the citizen to defend his or her own life.
I know plenty of cops around here who are the biggest fucking idiots you'll ever meet. These guys wills start fights while off duty and packing their off-duty weapon. And don't tell me that your department is different. I fucking know. Its not. If you think that your department doesn't have a bunch of jack-offs in it, that just means that your one of the jack-offs and you can't see it. The only difference might be if your a state trooper.
Also, I told about my area before. I wouldn't classify it as "really rough", but a lot of people, who aren't used to it, might. And certainly, if you wander off course, it gets "really rough" fast. But I take exception to your "knucklehead" comment about anyone who lives near such an area. We aren't all sheltered brats with superiority complexes and sheltered opinions. Maybe I will move to your area, one day, and god-willing, won't be a knucklehead anymore by virtue of my geographical location. Trust me, though, if my family weren't here, I'd be out of here very fast. Still, my opinion stands about the stupid comment.
I think you took that a little too personally. Nowhere in my post did I insinuate that anyone living near certain areas are all knuckleheads. If you aren't, I wasn't talking about YOU. I apologize if I wasn't clear, because I'd have to consider myself a knucklehead too if that were the way I meant that. Rough areas are rough because there ARE plenty of knuckleheads around. I live in NYC. I was born in Harlem, grew up in East Harlem. Lived in the Bronx. I've lived in bad and good neighborhoods in Queens. I'm not sheltered, nor do I feel superior to anyone. Here's a name I want you to google...NYC Police Officer Edward Byrne. He was guarding a drug witness in South Jamaica, Queens (a neighborhood resident called the cops on dealers, so they threatened him). The kingpin put out a hit from inside prison - he ordered a cop killed, and his minions carried it out. I lived 3 blocks down and around the corner. They rolled by his cruiser outside the house, and put the officers brains all over the inside of the car. I had crack vials on the sidewalk in front of my house. Before the shooting, you didn't see a police car coming through the neighborhood (they'd clear the drug dealers off the corner by the payphone they used for business occasionally, but they'd be back later). After the shooting, the cops were all over the place. As long as the right folks are dying, the cops didn't give a fuck, but when one of their own caught it, they tightened things up.
My opinion grows out of the fact that as a black man in this city/those neighborhoods, my likelihood of dying by gun violence is greatly increased, be it by a cop OR a criminal. I wholeheartedly agree that all cops can't be trusted. The job requires exceptional people, but more often than not they're just regular guys. You don't know who's up to the job until the shit hits the fan. Plenty of unarmed black men get shot by cops. Cops here have shot OTHER undercover cops, because they were black, so they weren't recognized as cops. My take is, if I can't really trust individuals that have supposedly been TRAINED to handle weapons and make certain judgments, I definitely don't trust the average citizen to be armed around me. You may believe you're fully capable and responsible, but you're also projecting that ability on most others. I would see you more as an exception than the rule. For someone like me, being armed makes it MORE likely that someone puts holes in me. If unarmed cats catch hot ones simply because they moved their hand the wrong way, my chances of getting lit up are much higher if I'm REALLY reaching for heat. At the same time, a cop might actually save your ass, so just like you can't paint every citizen with a broad brush, you can't paint all cops that way. Most of them are just guys that are trying to get home in one piece at the end of the day. Growing up here, you learn to be polite to cops, or simply avoid them unless absolutely necessary. And having police around doesn't mean we don't bear responsibility for ourselves, because there usually won't be a cop nearby when you most need one. The defense of your home is, and will always be, your responsibility. Think about it...a pro-cop (well...at least he claimed to be) law and order Mayor Giuliani felt retired cops needed to justify keeping their firearms, or they had to give it up. If men that went their whole careers without drawing or firing their weapons in the line of duty (which is true of the overwhelming majority of cops) can't own, regular joes probably shouldn't either. The fewer guns out there, the better. Mayor Bloomberg followed this up by trying to stanch the flow of guns into the city. It's been found that the majority of them flow in from Virginia and other points south. Guys roll down there on the bus, get a motel room, use that as their address, buy the guns, chill for the waiting period, and hop the bus back to NYC (if you're black or latino, don't come through Port Authority Bus Terminal if you're coming from the south with a duffle bag...that's who the cops look for...HA HA!).
Look...I've lived here my whole life. I've ridden the subway since I was a little kid. As an adult I've ridden it in the wee hours, drunk and passed out. Nothing has ever happened to me. Maybe I'm lucky, and don't look like a mark so criminals pass me by. I've come and gone at all hours in bad neighborhoods I've lived in, and nicer residential areas that I've been in in the past several years. But occasionally, even in those neighborhoods, you'll hear a shot or two, and the police helicopter will hover overhead occasionally. Even in good neighborhoods, you don't know who'll come through. On Saturday, I was in East New York, Brooklyn. Straight hood, where bad things happen. From there, we rolled to Fort Greene, a nice multi-cultural neighborhood where those things usually don't happen. Still unscathed. There are neighborhoods like Compton, CA, where residents talk of having to eat and sleep on the floor, below window level, so not to get hit by the stray bullets that might fly in. And that's the thing...when criminals start firing, they usually don't hit each other. They hit unsuspecting innocents. I don't think them pulling out and firing back helps the situation. My "range" game is nice, but with bullets flying and the heart pumping, can I hit my target? Not so sure.
My one experience with crime happened in the building I grew up in in East Harlem. I was with my mom, and we were on the elevator on the way up. Some chick was waiting in the lobby for the elevator, and got on with us and other residents (the elevator was full). She pushed the button for a floor, and an accomplice was waiting. He pulled a knife, and had everyone give up their shit. My mom had to give up her engagement and wedding rings. When we got upstairs, my dad grabbed a knife and ran out looking for them (he was a Korean War vet, and actually had a gun in the house. My mom convinced him NOT to take the gun). If he had taken it? If someone were carrying a gun on a crowded elevator? There's the school of thought that if MORE people are armed, it can prove as a deterent because someone that means you harm may be less inclined to fuck with you because you MIGHT be packing. At the sme time, prison should be a deterent to crime...but it isn't. The joint is full, and so are death rows. Or...we can try to limit the amount of firearms available to anyone. Criminals will always find a way, but does arming as many citizens as possible, to carry, balance it out? It's usually unintended targets that catch the bullet. If you live in a place where you really feel unsafe if you're not packing, I feel for you. It's difficult to live that way. This is where my opinion comes from. I hope I clarified.
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