[WesternCancer]

After the club last friday went to this girls house made out, tried to escalate but she used "i dont even know you" then "i dont normally do this" defenses. We fell asleep, she was sleeping/cuddling on me through the night in the morning. I go out last night with her and her friends. She avoids whenever I try to kiss her on the dancefloor/with anyone around, BUT she will make out with her friend (another girl). We go back to her place again same thing happens. In the morning she is talking about her friend and how she shouldn't be fuck buddies with this guy because hes not going to date the girl if she gives sex for free etc. She also brought up relationships she also jokingly suggested we have a shower together (assumed this was a shit-test or something of the like, replied telling her how the showers are too small and I need a lot of room etc)

What I'm taking away from this is that she doesn't want sex outside of a relationship and is subtly hinting I should begin dating her. She is dating material, however.

Any thoughts on how to proceed or break down her defenses to get sex without a relationship? Or is this just a lost cause unless I date her.

[MiXX]

(10-15-2011 06:38 PM)WesternCancer Wrote:  

Any thoughts on how to proceed or break down her defenses to get sex without a relationship? Or is this just a lost cause unless I date her.

I can assure you some guy is bangin' her and beating that ass like it owed him money every night. The problem is, he is not giving her the "relationship" she wants, and therefore she is looking for the guy that will be her boyfriend while she still fucks the other guy who does not want it.

It's all about her selfish needs of not feeling guilty for being someones fuck toy. Surprise! That's women for you; selfish as fuck.

Solution:

Lie and ask her to be your serious GF, then bolt after sex.

Mixx

[Prowl]

(10-15-2011 06:54 PM)MiXX Wrote:  

Solution:

Lie and ask her to be your serious GF, then bolt after sex.

Mixx

[Screwston]

I was thinking exactly what Mixx wrote lol. Did you just say she was dating material!? Don't fall for that bullshit. Do what you gotta do hit it then delete her number.

[WesternCancer]

I don't mean dating material as in obb ur mai world~*~*~~* I mean shes definitely someone you'd to be seen with due to status, personality, looks etc. I think I'll do that, I remember reading somewhere its a bad move to be the first one to say "lets be exclusive" Maybe try and escalate again and ask her why she is so reluctant to then make her bring it up?

[Excelsior]

(10-15-2011 06:54 PM)MiXX Wrote:  

I can assure you some guy is bangin' her and beating that ass like it owed him money every night. The problem is, he is not giving her the "relationship" she wants, and therefore she is looking for the guy that will be her boyfriend while she still fucks the other guy who does not want it.

Exactly.

Do not get me wrong: it is entirely possible that she could be a good girl who really doesn't want to have sex outside of marriage or a long term relationship. It is possible that she was raised in such a fashion and has held tightly to those principles for her entire life. It is possible that she really "doesn't normally do this".

The thing is that it is extremely unlikely, and you need to assume the worst because, chances are, that is the reality in this society. Even the "good girls" are not so good, as MiXX has written extensively about in the past.
Chances are that as she denies you sexual favors, some other guy is getting at least a blowjob. That is just the probability-stand against it at your own peril.

Now, about your name, "WesternCancer"...I think there is wisdom to be gleaned from it.

Judging from your anecdote, you are already being slowly lulled into the idea of offering commitment initially. You must not do this.
It would be wise of you to view any impulse or urge you have to offer initial commitment to a woman before she has put the idea forward or become intimate with you as cancerous to your future relationships with them.

Under absolutely no circumstances should you put commitment on the table before she does. Do not let any woman fool you into thinking that this is necessary and/or required for the progression of a relationhip with her as this one has tried to do. You must also never let her appearance and/or mannerisms ("oh, she seems like a good girl!", "she's religous", "definite dating material overall", etc, etc) shape your opinion either and also lull you into thinking that early commitment on your part is a good call.

I do not care what you think about her personality/looks/status, etc: None of that shit matters. As MiXX said, while you use these things to label her "dating material" and ponder the idea of potentially committing to her, there is a good chance that she is allowing some other bro out there to treat her like a common cum-dumpster, letting him get away with much more sexually than she lets you.

In a society like this, where there are few remaining social constraints on female sexuality and where women are constantly told to "explore" their options, "never settle", and ignore any opinions (especially male ones) to the contrary, you must assume that EVERY SINGLE WOMAN YOU MEET is guilty of this (that is, being some guy's cumdumpster) until proven innocent. What she says is inconsequential-what she DOES is what matters. Do not take her at her word.

If she stonewalls you like this chick is doing, you must assume that some other guy is already getting through. Is that cynical? Yes. It is also the only wise play to make.

Bottomline: Early commitment is cancer for your relationship future as a guy, and all women in this society(regardless of who they are) must be seen as guilty until proven innocent. That means you must always assume that she is already fucking some other dude-never assume innocence.

[herpaderpa]

(10-18-2011 04:54 PM)Athlone McGinnis Wrote:  

(10-15-2011 06:54 PM)MiXX Wrote:  

I can assure you some guy is bangin' her and beating that ass like it owed him money every night. The problem is, he is not giving her the "relationship" she wants, and therefore she is looking for the guy that will be her boyfriend while she still fucks the other guy who does not want it.

Exactly.

Do not get me wrong: it is entirely possible that she could be a good girl who really doesn't want to have sex outside of marriage or a long term relationship. It is possible that she was raised in such a fashion and has held tightly to those principles for her entire life. It is possible that she really "doesn't normally do this".

The thing is that it is extremely unlikely, and you need to assume the worst because, chances are, that is the reality in this society. Even the "good girls" are not so good, as MiXX has written extensively about in the past.
Chances are that as she denies you sexual favors, some other guy is getting at least a blowjob. That is just the probability-stand against it at your own peril.

Now, about your name, "WesternCancer"...I think there is wisdom to be gleaned from it.

Judging from your anecdote, you are already being slowly lulled into the idea of offering commitment initially. You must not do this.
It would be wise of you to view any impulse or urge you have to offer initial commitment to a woman before she has put the idea forward or become intimate with you as cancerous to your future relationships with them.

Under absolutely no circumstances should you put commitment on the table before she does. Do not let any woman fool you into thinking that this is necessary and/or required for the progression of a relationhip with her as this one has tried to do. You must also never let her appearance and/or mannerisms ("oh, she seems like a good girl!", "she's religous", "definite dating material overall", etc, etc) shape your opinion either and also lull you into thinking that early commitment on your part is a good call.

I do not care what you think about her personality/looks/status, etc: None of that shit matters. As MiXX said, while you use these things to label her "dating material" and ponder the idea of potentially committing to her, there is a good chance that she is allowing some other bro out there to treat her like a common cum-dumpster, letting him get away with much more sexually than she lets you.

In a society like this, where there are few remaining social constraints on female sexuality and where women are constantly told to "explore" their options, "never settle", and ignore any opinions (especially male ones) to the contrary, you must assume that EVERY SINGLE WOMAN YOU MEET is guilty of this (that is, being some guy's cumdumpster) until proven innocent. What she says is inconsequential-what she DOES is what matters. Do not take her at her word.

If she stonewalls you like this chick is doing, you must assume that some other guy is already getting through. Is that cynical? Yes. It is also the only wise play to make.

Bottomline: Early commitment is cancer for your relationship future as a guy, and all women in this society(regardless of who they are) must be seen as guilty until proven innocent. That means you must always assume that she is already fucking some other dude-never assume innocence.

That was some real shit right there man, I needed to read that.

[WesternCancer]

Althone great post.
I think she really was struggling with being that girl, she told me I was the first guy she wasn't dating she let stay over at her place the first night we met. However, through my continual experience I think she was honest in her good girl intent, but not her actions.

My name as you suggest has deeper meaning. I chose it to represent my, and many others' feelings about the state of western culture: UGG boot wearing entitlement princesses and pathetic beta males who succumb to their every whim, among others.

I totally agree with the rest of what you had to say. I've only been in this for a few months now so I'm still having trouble with feeling too much for girls. I can pick them up bring them home, fuck them, but when it comes to the morning after I give up on trying to be "alpha" and show more beta tendencies. I guess I need to realize that I always need to be "alpha".

Above is exactly what happened with the girl in question. I bring her home the first night (don't fuck her) wake up etc. The next few times I can feel myself getting progressively more "beta" because I was starting to get feelings for her. I think that turned her away because I was different than the guy she brought home the first night.

She said we should watch movie x sometime when I'm not busy studying. I tell her I think I can pencil you in a few hrs. She tells me not tonight the movie will take too long to download. I say its already downloaded. She playfully says youre trying to tempt you. I say "trying? I've already got you convinced, be here for time x" She comes over lies down on my bed, I sit but she grabs me and pulls me down too. She blabs about her day etc. Then starts talking about all this stuff to do with sex and is getting really touchy. Her shirt is riding up a bit and I can see the indent of her hips and her tight stomach. Instaboner. I go in for a kiss she turns away and says I've been meaning to talk to you about this. Tells me she doesn't want to do this outside of a relationship etc, says nothing more. Then she starts talking about making me dinner and going clubbing with me. Then she gets all quiet and then says promise you wont tell anyone. (too bad im telling the internet) She tells me that she made a 'pact' with her friend saying that shes only going to do stuff with the next guy if hes the guy shes going to marry. I'm still looking normal on the outside. Inside: ABORT ABORT JUMP OUT THE WINDOW HOLY SHIT. Anyways before she leaves I clarify what she meant by the earlier conversation. I said so all you want is to be friends and nothing more? She thinks for a bit says yes. I act aloof and like that doesn't mean anything to me, she looks at me funny.

I think she was using the marriage thing in order to let me know that even if I did date her It'd have to be serious and I wouldn't get sex for a while. GAME OVER. I feel being the first guy (according to her) that shes let stay at her place was a good indicator of solid game, but I still need to work on after the first date/meeting kind of stuff.

I lay awake that night not being angry at her, but at myself for not keeping solid game and maintaining attraction. I feel this is a great indicator of how far I've progressed; I am more concerned with improving my game for the next girl than trying to get this girl back and I think that's something everyone new to this needs to realize. Always be adapting and always progress.

[Excelsior]

I think you did the right thing. This part here intrigues me:

(10-19-2011 11:12 AM)WesternCancer Wrote:  

Then she gets all quiet and then says promise you wont tell anyone. (too bad im telling the internet) She tells me that she made a 'pact' with her friend saying that shes only going to do stuff with the next guy if hes the guy shes going to marry.

I noticed how you said that she said that she was "only going to do stuff with the next guy", which pretty much proves the point MiXX and I were making earlier on.

She says "next guy", implying that there was at least one dude before who she allowed sexual access at a low price (read: not marriage or firm LTR).

You ought to be offended. Apparently, she respected that guy(or those guys) enough to award them quick sexual access. For you, though, she puts up walls and insists on a high price (lots of time, firm commitment before sex, etc). They get quick sex, you get to jump through hoops. All they needed to get in her pants was game, while she insists that you need game AND a wedding ring.

What that tells me is that she clearly doesn't value you or your time very much. A woman like that isn't worth your effort. It would be one thing if she was being consistent(read: if she really and truly hadn't "done stuff" with other guys before), but from what you're saying it is clear that she's just changing the rules for you to suit her own selfishness. Such blatantly hypocritical disrespect deserves an instant "next".

On another related tangent...

This actually reminds me of the resolution of the male "Maddona-whore" complex. Girls will read what I'm saying here and complain "Oh, so when she sleeps around with you quickly she's a whore, but when she doesn't she's a bitch who deserves next? Hypocrite!"

What they don't understand is that this complex is simple to resolve. Men want Maddonna AND the Whore, but in a specific way. Their ideal is a girl who carries both sides, but expresses her "whore" side only for him. It is the exclusivity of the expression of the "whore" that makes the difference.
Men want this exclusivity because of an evolved, hardwired fear of cuckolding. Men value a woman expressing her sexuality for him exclusively because it ensures his kids are his, and that he hasn't been duped by another male.

This is why a girl who shows her 'whore' side to many men gets labelled and insulted. A guy will never apply the same treatment to a woman who behaves in just as kinky and freaky a fashion sexually, but ONLY WITH HIM(or one guy exclusively at any time). Example:

Girl A: Had an exclusive BF for 2 years. Only ever had sex with him over that time. Let him do anything, including Ass-to-mouth and other kinky things.

Girl B: Only ever had "regular" vaginal sex, but spread it out with dozens of guys over the same two year period and allowed some of them to run trains on her all at once.

Girl A will never receive the viscous labels Girl B will, even though one could argue that the things she did were somewhat freakier. Girl B will be known as the neighborhood bike. Exclusivity is key.

To men, a female's expression of sex with them is valuable individually, but loses that value when it is spread out among too many guys. Men place a very high value on the "whore" side when it is expressed exclusively for them and they can be sure of this.

That exclusive expression is arguably the best compliment a girl can pay a guy. Every other chump gets Madonna, and can only dream of glimpsing the whore(her sexuality). But he(and ONLY he) gets to see her Madonna AND her whore.

This girl, WesternCancer, has inverted this complex and essentially paid you the greatest insult a woman can give a man. She has said that, while all the other guys got to see "the whore", you only get to see Madonna. She saves the valuable expression of her sexuality for other guys(though it is cheapened by her obviously having spread it out aong several of them) but withholds it from you and charges you more for it. You ought to have no more to do with her.

Don't beat yourself up about this either ("Damn, my game should have been tighter!!!"). This is just her being selfish and rude. The only thing you can improve here is your tolerance, or lack thereof. NEVER put up with this kind of treatment from a girl. Walk away immediately and don't look back (unless it is to a clear offer of casual sex from her with the hoops/walls removed). Casual, but firm intolerance (that means don't scowl and cuss as you do it, but at the same time make it very clear where you stand) is the only defence against this type of disrespect. Girls will learn how to act when they see you won't take this type of crap in stride.

[WesternCancer]

She came over again, brought me some homemade cookies after an "im hungry bring me some cookies" text. According to her shes only ever slept with two guys but has had boyfriends for months without sleeping with them. She also said she had to use some serious willpower to not fuck me the first night (almost broke her that night) so assuming (lol) shes being truthful it was a huge boost to my confidence levels when it comes to my own game. I don't think I'll persue this any further though sounds like too much effort, maybe 10 shots of vodka will help me out along the line haha jk.


I actually just had a conversation with some of my guy friends about this. Tried to hammer in that exact point. The same logic is for men. Women want a man whore, or at least a man that is highly valued by other women. This is one of the cornerstone concepts of this whole game business and it gets me every time when people deny its validity. Men want a woman that is loyal and dedicated to pleasing him and women want a man who is wanted by all of the women but chooses only her (to her knowledge amirite). No girl is going to sleep with a guy that no one likes and no guy is going to sleep with a girl that everyone else has slept with.

Thanks for the words of encouragement. This whole business is full of rejection and straight up disrespectful shit as outlined previously, its hard not to beat oneself up over losing a girl at the infantile stages of game most of us are in. I'm learning now to take rejection as a learning strategy instead of an end. Look back at why things didnt go your way, and if its because there is something inherently wrong with the girl so be it. Move on there's always more girls to swoop.

[Excelsior]

(10-24-2011 10:24 PM)WesternCancer Wrote:  

I actually just had a conversation with some of my guy friends about this. Tried to hammer in that exact point. The same logic is for men. Women want a man whore, or at least a man that is highly valued by other women. This is one of the cornerstone concepts of this whole game business and it gets me every time when people deny its validity. Men want a woman that is loyal and dedicated to pleasing him and women want a man who is wanted by all of the women but chooses only her (to her knowledge amirite). No girl is going to sleep with a guy that no one likes and no guy is going to sleep with a girl that everyone else has slept with.

Very well put. I think you're on the right track. Good luck, and let us know if this situation rises up again.