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Denver, CO approves decriminalization of psilocybin mushrooms
#1

Denver, CO approves decriminalization of psilocybin mushrooms

Didn't see this anywhere on the board but thought it was quite interesting:

Quote:Quote:

Denver just voted to decriminalize psychedelic mushrooms
It’s the first US city to decriminalize psilocybin mushrooms

- - -

Denver will become the first US city to effectively decriminalize mushrooms containing the psychedelic psilocybin, also known as “magic mushrooms.”

Initiative 301 makes the personal use and possession of psilocybin mushrooms among people 21 and older the lowest possible law enforcement priority in Denver. It also prohibits the city from spending resources to pursue criminal penalties related to the use or possession of psilocybin mushrooms among people 21 and older.

And the initiative sets up “the psilocybin mushroom policy review panel to assess and report on the effects of the ordinance.”

The initiative doesn’t legalize magic mushrooms; they remain illegal under state and federal law. And it doesn’t decriminalize or deprioritize enforcement against the distribution and sales of psilocybin mushrooms — all of that could still be pursued by police.

According to the Washington Post, Denver police arrested about 50 people a year over the past three years for possession or sale of psilocybin, and prosecutors acted on just 11 of the cases. That’s out of thousands of arrests overall in the city each year.

Voting began in Colorado, which does mail-in voting, last month and mostly concluded Tuesday (although a very small number of overseas and military votes can still come in). Things looked bad for the initiative late Tuesday, as it trailed behind in the results. But on Wednesday, the final tally came in — and showed Initiative 301 narrowly won with nearly 51 percent of the vote, according to the Denver Post and New York Times.

The results will be certified on May 16.

Advocates for the measure argue that decriminalization would shift law enforcement resources away from pursuing nonviolent offenses. They claim that psilocybin is safe, nonaddictive or close to nonaddictive, and that a growing body of evidence suggests the drug has therapeutic benefits for illnesses ranging from depression to end-of-life anxiety to addiction.

Opponents worry that decriminalization could lead to more drug use. Especially in Denver, they’re concerned that decriminalization could perpetuate the city’s reputation as “a drug-friendly city,” Jackson Barnett reported for the Denver Post. Critics also point out psilocybin does have some risks — particularly, experts say, the possibility of accidents and traumatic experiences that can be psychologically damaging (especially among people predisposed to mental illness).

One potential source of real-world evidence on this: Portugal. After the country decriminalized all drugs, it saw a decrease in drug-related deaths and drops in reported past-year and past-month drug use, according to a 2014 report from the Transform Drug Policy Foundation. But it also saw an increase in lifetime prevalence of drug use, as well as an uptick in reported use among teens after 2007.

But Portugal also simultaneously adopted special commissions that attempt to link people with drug addictions to treatment. Although the success of the commissions has yet to be thoroughly evaluated, it’s possible that even as decriminalization increased drug use, the commissions and more access to treatment got so many people off drugs that drug use still fell overall.

Still, decriminalization alone may have its benefits. A 2009 report from the libertarian Cato Institute, written by Glenn Greenwald, concluded that decriminalization freed people from the “fear of arrest” when they sought help for their addiction and “freed up resources that could be channeled into treatment and other harm reduction programs.”

What effects psilocybin decriminalization will have in the US, Colorado, or Denver, however, remain to be seen. Even more so than marijuana legalization, this is an area of policy that’s largely untested in modern America.

This kind of pioneering vote isn’t new for Denver or Colorado as a whole. In 2012, Colorado and Washington state became the first two states to legalize marijuana for recreational use.

Other places, particularly Oregon and California, are considering measures to change their laws regarding psilocybin as well.

But Denver has broken ahead of the pack, becoming the first US city to effectively decriminalize magic mushrooms.
https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/2019/...ation-vote

While seemingly a small step - in practical terms, it will affect very few people and means only that psilocybin possession would remain illegal but would become police’s “lowest law-enforcement priority” -, it's certainly a breakthrough in terms of how psilocybin is viewed and treated publicly.

As many members on this board can attest, psilocybin is a powerful compound when well used. Roosh's own experience with mushrooms speaks to that.

As someone who considers drug prohibition and the war on drugs as mostly wasteful and wrong, I can't help but see this as a positive outcome.

It should help the momentum of the research being conducted with psilocybin (especially for patients with depression), and I think it can also be a nudge towards facilitating more research into the therapeutic use of other compounds like MDMA. Like it happened with marijuana before, this might also be the initial spark that leads to legalization.
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#2

Denver, CO approves decriminalization of psilocybin mushrooms

The Psychedelic revolution never ended.
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#3

Denver, CO approves decriminalization of psilocybin mushrooms

Great, I think psilocybin and LSD being made illegal was far more heinous than pot.
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#4

Denver, CO approves decriminalization of psilocybin mushrooms

Beautiful city. Im happy for them.
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#5

Denver, CO approves decriminalization of psilocybin mushrooms

Psychedelic drugs don't give you any special insights about the meaning of life. It just alters your supply of serotonin, similar to antidepressants. Read anything Timothy Leary wrote after his experiences with LSD. It is all nonsense and he left no lasting legacy He was a Harvard professor who could have produced important work. Why didn't LSD improve his intelligence and give him an advantage? His daughter committed suicide hanging herself with her shoelaces. Why didn't drug induced spiritual insights help her live a stable life? However there is no doubt that America is going to eventually legalize Marijuana and all psychedelic drugs, because there are big money interests involved in it now. Their marketing departments will describe all the medical benefits and your doctor will give you a prescription.

Rico... Sauve....
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#6

Denver, CO approves decriminalization of psilocybin mushrooms

I don’t get it either. If trippy drugs are supposed to spark some sort of creative genius, then why was virtually all of the world’s greatest art, architecture, and literature produced without their help? Maybe alcohol and cigarettes.
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#7

Denver, CO approves decriminalization of psilocybin mushrooms

Quote: (05-09-2019 10:58 PM)Sherman Wrote:  

Psychedelic drugs don't give you any special insights about the meaning of life. It just alters your supply of serotonin, similar to antidepressants. Read anything Timothy Leary wrote after his experiences with LSD. It is all nonsense and he left no lasting legacy He was a Harvard professor who could have produced important work. Why didn't LSD improve his intelligence and give him an advantage? His daughter committed suicide hanging herself with her shoelaces. Why didn't drug induced spiritual insights help her live a stable life? However there is no doubt that America is going to eventually legalize Marijuana and all psychedelic drugs, because there are big money interests involved in it now. Their marketing departments will describe all the medical benefits and your doctor will give you a prescription.

Because Timothy Leary was a CIA asset.

https://www.muckrock.com/news/archives/2...-fbi-file/






The drugs aren't intended to raise consciousness. LSD and Magic Mushrooms are the result of literal mind control experiments, and are spread for the same reason ( and by the same people) that Opiods were introduced to China.
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#8

Denver, CO approves decriminalization of psilocybin mushrooms

I'll go by my tried and tested rule:

If the Establishment glorifies it, then it's bad for you.

I'm not sure what the angle on mushrooms is, but there's a reason it's been getting pushed in pop culture for a while now. And that reason isn't to help you.
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#9

Denver, CO approves decriminalization of psilocybin mushrooms

I never like shrooms that much, they rot my guts and make me all paranoid but I’d still like to go to Denver and whacked out on them, smoke some dabs and go climbing in the Rockies. Shrooms are best consumed in nature, away from people not on them and with no sharp objects around.
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#10

Denver, CO approves decriminalization of psilocybin mushrooms

^taking shrooms in nature freaks me the fuck out.
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#11

Denver, CO approves decriminalization of psilocybin mushrooms

Giving 'Rocky Mountain High' new meaning...?
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#12

Denver, CO approves decriminalization of psilocybin mushrooms

Quote: (05-10-2019 12:52 AM)VNvet Wrote:  

If the Establishment glorifies it, then it's bad for you.

When people are tripping they are not procreating.

When people are tripping they are not speaking to each other.

When people are tripping they are not practicing a spirituality that is based on morality.

When people are tripping they are not looking at actions of politicians.

When people are tripping they are not practicing at gun range.

When people are tripping they are not resisting government abuse.
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#13

Denver, CO approves decriminalization of psilocybin mushrooms

Quote: (05-10-2019 08:20 AM)CynicalContrarian Wrote:  

Giving 'Rocky Mountain High' new meaning...?

RMH has always been primarily a drug reference.

As for the shrooms, I wonder how it will work. You can buy them in stores in Holland, so there is some quality control and reliability. They are only decriminalized for Denver city police, so I would not expect them to be packaged and sold in stores.

I've tripped on shrooms and had a good time, but I've also had them make me paranoid and insecure, when I normally feel in control of my situation.

I do think 'trip' is the right term for the experience. You don't know what to expect when you take them, and they make you see things from a new perspective.

I have had useful insights from tripping, but I agree most people do not grow and improve from tripping, as they would from real world experiences. I will say that modern music made with electrified instruments has been strongly influenced by psychadelics, and so has art in general, but to a lesser degree.

I'm the tower of power, too sweet to be sour. I'm funky like a monkey. Sky's the limit and space is the place!
-Randy Savage
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#14

Denver, CO approves decriminalization of psilocybin mushrooms

Having met and known Timothy Leary, I can tell you the best way to characterize him is he had a romantic fascination with life and of his own involvement with it. He was self-absorbed with the attention-span of a gnat (which is why he didn't get cryo-preserved, but that's a long story for another day). I think the hallucinogens, which is what LSD, psilocybin, and mescaline are, DO have very useful role in psychology and especially psycho-analysis providing they are used sparingly in a controlled environment. However, Leary with his self-absorption and romanticization of his own life, allowed his self-experimentation with LSD to degenerate into a cult-like movement. It was this cult-like movement that destroyed the legitimacy of hallucinogen use in psychotherapy and likely fostered the Nixon-driven war on drugs that followed in its wake.

Long term frequent usage of either LSD and marijuana destroys short-term memory recall, something that Leary definitely suffered from in his last years.
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#15

Denver, CO approves decriminalization of psilocybin mushrooms

Quote: (05-10-2019 09:44 AM)Mage Wrote:  

Quote: (05-10-2019 12:52 AM)VNvet Wrote:  

If the Establishment glorifies it, then it's bad for you.

When people are tripping they are not procreating.

When people are tripping they are not speaking to each other.

When people are tripping they are not practicing a spirituality that is based on morality.

When people are tripping they are not looking at actions of politicians.

When people are tripping they are not practicing at gun range.

When people are tripping they are not resisting government abuse.

[Image: potd.gif]

×100
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#16

Denver, CO approves decriminalization of psilocybin mushrooms

Weren’t the hippies of the 60s who protested the Vietnam war all high on weed and psychedelics? I think our alcoholic culture is a bigger threat to society:

When people are drunk they damage property

When people are drunk they inflict violence on each other

When people are drunk they cause car crashes that destroy lives

When people are drunk they say mean things to people and damage relationships

When people are drunk they have sex with strangers, get STDs and cause unwanted pregnancies

When people drink they get fat, develop beer bellies, eat shitty food and get diabetes
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#17

Denver, CO approves decriminalization of psilocybin mushrooms

Quote: (05-09-2019 10:58 PM)Sherman Wrote:  

Psychedelic drugs don't give you any special insights about the meaning of life. It just alters your supply of serotonin, similar to antidepressants. Read anything Timothy Leary wrote after his experiences with LSD. It is all nonsense and he left no lasting legacy He was a Harvard professor who could have produced important work. Why didn't LSD improve his intelligence and give him an advantage? His daughter committed suicide hanging herself with her shoelaces. Why didn't drug induced spiritual insights help her live a stable life? However there is no doubt that America is going to eventually legalize Marijuana and all psychedelic drugs, because there are big money interests involved in it now. Their marketing departments will describe all the medical benefits and your doctor will give you a prescription.


Sounds like you either never tried tripping, or became disillusioned with the stereotypical festival burnout. Been there myself. Fact is, in the right situation and mindset, weed, LSD and mushrooms can all give you special insights about the meaning of your life, your place in the world, and especially your relationships with others. I rarely do anything anymore and don't usually "enjoy" it when I do, but every time that I do, I'm better for it.

Quote: (05-10-2019 09:44 AM)Mage Wrote:  

Quote: (05-10-2019 12:52 AM)VNvet Wrote:  

If the Establishment glorifies it, then it's bad for you.

When people are tripping they are not procreating.

When people are tripping they are not speaking to each other.

When people are tripping they are not practicing a spirituality that is based on morality.

When people are tripping they are not looking at actions of politicians.

When people are tripping they are not practicing at gun range.

When people are tripping they are not resisting government abuse.

Complete bullshit. A trip lasts what, 5 hours? Yea, so you go 5 hours without shooting a gun, BFD. I've fucked when tripping. I've had incredibly intense conversations when tripping. I've reexamined my own morality and ways of treating others based on perspectives gained while tripping, far more effectively than relying on some fictional, antiquated book, be it the Bible, Koran, or Dianetics would've given me. As far as watching politicians, this post reeks of someone who needs to spend less time worrying about them, not more. But if that's where you choose to focus your energy after you eat a bag of shrooms you can certainly do that too.

When it comes to the establishment "glorifying" things, every vice combined is glorified far less than than money, and I think we're all alright with having some of that, as well as the glorified lifestyle it can bring.
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#18

Denver, CO approves decriminalization of psilocybin mushrooms

Quote: (05-10-2019 10:50 PM)Gorgiass Wrote:  

Quote: (05-09-2019 10:58 PM)Sherman Wrote:  

Psychedelic drugs don't give you any special insights about the meaning of life. It just alters your supply of serotonin, similar to antidepressants. Read anything Timothy Leary wrote after his experiences with LSD. It is all nonsense and he left no lasting legacy He was a Harvard professor who could have produced important work. Why didn't LSD improve his intelligence and give him an advantage? His daughter committed suicide hanging herself with her shoelaces. Why didn't drug induced spiritual insights help her live a stable life? However there is no doubt that America is going to eventually legalize Marijuana and all psychedelic drugs, because there are big money interests involved in it now. Their marketing departments will describe all the medical benefits and your doctor will give you a prescription.


Sounds like you either never tried tripping, or became disillusioned with the stereotypical festival burnout. Been there myself. Fact is, in the right situation and mindset, weed, LSD and mushrooms can all give you special insights about the meaning of your life, your place in the world, and especially your relationships with others. I rarely do anything anymore and don't usually "enjoy" it when I do, but every time that I do, I'm better for it.

Quote: (05-10-2019 09:44 AM)Mage Wrote:  

Quote: (05-10-2019 12:52 AM)VNvet Wrote:  

If the Establishment glorifies it, then it's bad for you.

When people are tripping they are not procreating.

When people are tripping they are not speaking to each other.

When people are tripping they are not practicing a spirituality that is based on morality.

When people are tripping they are not looking at actions of politicians.

When people are tripping they are not practicing at gun range.

When people are tripping they are not resisting government abuse.

Complete bullshit. A trip lasts what, 5 hours? Yea, so you go 5 hours without shooting a gun, BFD. I've fucked when tripping. I've had incredibly intense conversations when tripping. I've reexamined my own morality and ways of treating others based on perspectives gained while tripping, far more effectively than relying on some fictional, antiquated book, be it the Bible, Koran, or Dianetics would've given me. As far as watching politicians, this post reeks of someone who needs to spend less time worrying about them, not more. But if that's where you choose to focus your energy after you eat a bag of shrooms you can certainly do that too.

When it comes to the establishment "glorifying" things, every vice combined is glorified far less than than money, and I think we're all alright with having some of that, as well as the glorified lifestyle it can bring.

I agree with you, and it really comes down to moderation. But I can see where the guys ripping on psychedelics are coming from. It's like the internet. Of course you, I, and the others on this forum are using the internet to communicate with like-minded folks in a positive manner, seeking enlightenment and self-improvement. Once you remove the lens of self-bias "I use this thing this way, so everyone does," you realize that the majority of people are not using the internet to seek truth, they are using it to further brainwash themselves and/or consume worthless media/propaganda. The same can probably be said about psychedelics; is the average Joe gaining self enlightenment or doing it for the "sick visuals, bro" at whatever herpes breeding-ground music festival?

All the same, I'm of the opinion that the government shouldn't make laws about what we as autonomous humans consume and put into our bodies. I'm for legalization of shrooms and other substances. And the point about alcohol stands solid, alcohol is one of the most destructive substances available to humans, the fact that it is legal while medicinal plants have been illegal is the biggest fucking joke.
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#19

Denver, CO approves decriminalization of psilocybin mushrooms

Quote: (05-10-2019 09:44 AM)Mage Wrote:  

Quote: (05-10-2019 12:52 AM)VNvet Wrote:  

If the Establishment glorifies it, then it's bad for you.

When people are tripping they are not procreating.

When people are tripping they are not speaking to each other.

When people are tripping they are not practicing a spirituality that is based on morality.

When people are tripping they are not looking at actions of politicians.

When people are tripping they are not practicing at gun range.

When people are tripping they are not resisting government abuse.

I've fucked on shrooms.

Tripping with close friends is a very rewarding and bonding experience.

Maybe it isn't your version of morality, but that doesn't make it any less valid.

Checking up on politics while tripping is exponentially more interesting and insightful.

I'd fuckin hope people aren't tripping at the gun range, but since tripping doesn't last all weekend you can easily shoot in the morning, then trip, then hey, even go shooting again afterwards if you feel like.

Most people realistically aren't actually resisting government abuse while tripping, but at the same time how many people actually do that sober anyway?

It's obvious you've never actually experienced psychedelics. Maybe get your talking points from somewhere other than D.A.R.E.
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#20

Denver, CO approves decriminalization of psilocybin mushrooms

Some of the criticisms of psychedelics also miss the fact that they had already been used for centuries by native Americans (peyote, ayahuasca) before the government got involved.

And there's also a third party involved in a psychedelic trip, in addition to the users and the substance: the guide, or shaman.

Maybe the psychedelic usage in the 60s had bad effects not because of the substance but because of the shaman. If your trip guide is CIA asset Timothy Leary then you will get different results than if you did it by yourself or with decent people.

At the end of the day, psychedelics are a powerful tool. They can be used for good or for evil. Just like firearms. Instead of blaming the tool, maybe we should blame the people using them (both the trippers and guides).
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#21

Denver, CO approves decriminalization of psilocybin mushrooms

The Ancient Greeks believed that the intoxicating experience from alcohol must be something that is produced by the Gods. How else could you explain it? So, they formed a religion and worshiped Dionysus, the God of wine. It's interesting that today, there doesn't seem to be any claims of using alcohol for its spiritual experience (Catholic communion doesn't count). But, the bullshit that psychedelics have a spiritual purpose seems to still be a viable concept. Psychedelics occur in plants for the purpose of protecting themselves from predators by destroying their nervous systems. LSD is derived from a mushroom. Cannabis is a flowering plant. It is like turning a knob to high and cranking up your serotonin system to the maximum using an external lever. The body wasn't designed for that, so there is no reason to assume that it is safe and there are no long term consequences. The marketing departments of the big corporations will push the "spirituality" and "health" features in their promotion. It's like the tobacco companies in the 1940s that promoted cigarettes by having actors smoking in films. Given enough time, you can convince anyone to do anything.

Rico... Sauve....
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#22

Denver, CO approves decriminalization of psilocybin mushrooms

Quote: (05-09-2019 10:58 PM)Sherman Wrote:  

Psychedelic drugs don't give you any special insights about the meaning of life. It just alters your supply of serotonin, similar to antidepressants. Read anything Timothy Leary wrote after his experiences with LSD. It is all nonsense and he left no lasting legacy He was a Harvard professor who could have produced important work. Why didn't LSD improve his intelligence and give him an advantage? His daughter committed suicide hanging herself with her shoelaces. Why didn't drug induced spiritual insights help her live a stable life? However there is no doubt that America is going to eventually legalize Marijuana and all psychedelic drugs, because there are big money interests involved in it now. Their marketing departments will describe all the medical benefits and your doctor will give you a prescription.

Now you guys have done it...

Primo:

Drugs or no drugs, ALL experiences "just alter" your brain chemistry. Your conclusion that therefore nothing of value can be gleaned from a trip is like saying that going for a swim in the ocean on a beautiful day "just" influences your brain chemistry in a particular way but it isn't of any real, ultimate value.

Your argument is: "psychedelics alter your supply of serotonin. Therefore, they don't give you any special insights about life." Do you see how your conclusion is a non sequitur?

On an epistemological note, the danger of of materialist thinking—the notion that "we are all just a collection of random atoms bouncing around", or, "everything we perceive is just a bunch of chemical reactions and electrical impulses in the brain"—is that you can be swayed to believe that man as such is of no intrinsic value.

After all, what value could a large clump of particles possibly possess? And of what value could any experience possibly be to this clump? In fact, you often here cliches to the effect of, "life is ultimately meaningless", "we're all just microscopic dots floating in an unfathomably vast and indifferent universe", and so forth.

That may all be so in the strict physical sense. But does that make man's life meaningless? I certainly don't believe so.

If, on the other hand, your basic premise is that man's life is a standard of value and that what he does and experiences is in fact of tremendous value—as evaluated by some kind of objective standards—then you couldn't discount powerful experiences as valueless even if they are a product of "just a bunch of chemicals".

Secundo:

Whether Timothy Leary was a crackpot or not, whether or not he produced work which you might consider meaningful, and whether or not his daughter committed suicide, has no bearing on the substance of the question of whether or not psychedelic experiences bring any real value or insight to the tripper's life. And frankly, it's poor form to trample on a young girl's grave as fodder for your flimsy argument. Suicide affects drugs users and non-drug users alike.

Quote: (05-10-2019 12:08 AM)TigerMandingo Wrote:  

I don’t get it either. If trippy drugs are supposed to spark some sort of creative genius, then why was virtually all of the world’s greatest art, architecture, and literature produced without their help? Maybe alcohol and cigarettes.

I've never heard it claimed that psychedelics "spark creative genius".

I've heard (and have experienced) that they help with creative problem solving, mood, dealing with inner issues, etc. But genius? That's a stretch. True geniuses, in the strict sense of the word, are all generally born (or rarely, induced with some kind of trauma to the head which forces the brain to reroute neuronal pathways using uncommon routes).

Dropping acid won't turn you into a Von Neumann. A Leary maybe, but not a Von Neumann. [Image: wink.gif]

On the second point, of you're looking for evidence that psychedelics are supposed to "spark creative genius", let's be honest—you don't have much data to work with. And as Sherlock Holmes said, "t is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts."

These substances are virtually brand new in terms of their relatively recent discovery (save tribal cultures who used them in various forms shamanistically), our understanding of their effects, and perhaps most importantly—their wide spread availability.

You could argue that Steve Jobs unlocked a portion of genius via psychedelics and meditation. In fact, he claimed that taking LSD was one of the most important things he'd ever done. He was a miserable bastard, but he was certainly an uncannily smart man.

Come to think of it, there's actually a book that addresses your contention that outside of cigarettes and alcohol, no great works of creation were fueled by substances. It's called "Daily habits: how artists work", and it catalogs a bunch of writers and artists and such. Some were straight edge. Some were meth heads. Some were drunks. Pretty cool book really.

I think the salient point is that you're not going to become some brilliant polymath by taking mushrooms. But you may very well come to some useful insights, emotional technologies, and practical understandings that will help you in the context of your own life, however insignificant that may be when compared to the creative giants of our world, of whom there are very few.

Quote: (05-10-2019 12:52 AM)VNvet Wrote:  

I'll go by my tried and tested rule:

If the Establishment glorifies it, then it's bad for you.

I'm not sure what the angle on mushrooms is, but there's a reason it's been getting pushed in pop culture for a while now. And that reason isn't to help you.

Man I was just saying the same thing to my friend yesterday when he forwarded me this news.

As the OP pointed out, the amount of effort that was going into enforcing the anti-mushrooms laws prior to this new act was pretty insignificant (50 arrests per year). Which makes me wonder if the establishment (if there is such a thing) is giving the populace a littler rat pellet that deludes them into thinking that real progress and reform is happening.

It's sort of a peck on the cheek at the end of a date.

And what's most disturbing about it is that all of the arguments FOR the decriminalization / legalization of drugs is on pragmatic or altruistic grounds. E.g. "it's expensive to enforce", or, "they don't really hurt anybody", or, "there's not that many people doing it", etc.

It's not like the police will stop arresting drug users. They'll arrest more of different kinds of drug users (and dealers). That's where the money is made in the drug war anyway. You can have your little mushrooms as long as we get to continue this war on drugs, which kills tens of thousands of Mexicans per year, and incarcerates God knows how many Americans who have never hurt a fly.

Nobody ever addresses the basic morality that underlies this whole issue. In fact, it's intentionally obfuscated and avoided.

The issue is your right to do as you damn well please with your body. In practical terms, the decriminalization of weed and mushrooms while other substances remain arbitrarily illegal, is the state saying to you "you can do ABC with your body, but you can't do XYZ. That's baAaAad for you." So who owns you? Who owns the right to your life and to live it as you see fit?

Quote: (05-10-2019 09:44 AM)Mage Wrote:  

When people are tripping they are not procreating.

When people are tripping they are not speaking to each other.

When people are tripping they are not practicing a spirituality that is based on morality.

When people are tripping they are not looking at actions of politicians.

When people are tripping they are not practicing at gun range.

When people are tripping they are not resisting government abuse.

This is hypocritical and I'll explain why I think so.

There's plenty of moron potheads who bury their heads in the sand, fair enough.

But there are also plenty of moron non-potheads who do the same.

None of the alleged consequences—I say alleged because you provided no evidence for your conclusions—of taking psychedelics that you claim above are justification for depriving a man of the right to dispose of his body as he sees fit.

Your argument is essentially that you think psychedelics are baAaaAd because they cause people not to make babies, practice at the gun range, and go to church to the extent that you would prefer. And therefore, you consider it proper to criminalize their use via violence or the threat of imprisonment, when consuming them is simply one man's business.

Is that not the very definition of "government abuse" which you cite above? Is not the government's purpose to defend the citizens from violence against each other by each other, or the state? Is not the state's duty to protect the inalienable rights of their citizens, including the most basic right of all, their property (which naturally means their own bodies)?

Quote: (05-10-2019 08:09 PM)scotian Wrote:  

Weren’t the hippies of the 60s who protested the Vietnam war all high on weed and psychedelics? I think our alcoholic culture is a bigger threat to society:

When people are drunk they damage property

When people are drunk they inflict violence on each other

When people are drunk they cause car crashes that destroy lives

When people are drunk they say mean things to people and damage relationships

When people are drunk they have sex with strangers, get STDs and cause unwanted pregnancies

When people drink they get fat, develop beer bellies, eat shitty food and get diabetes

Indeed.

This is a common counter-argument against those who would like to see recreational drugs criminalized. "Well, what about alcohol?" But the reason it never really hits home is that it's an argument from pragmatism. E.g. "pot causes 'x' amount of deaths whilst alcohol causes '1000x' amount of deaths, and therefore why the hell is pot illegal while alcohol is shoved in your face?" Which is all true enough but again completely misses the real issue, which is:

Do you or do you not have the right to do what you want so long as it doesn't *directly* harm others?

My feeling is that if we're not arguing at the level of basic principles we'll never have real freedom. The politicians will throw in a rat pellet from time to time like this thumbs up on mushrooms but it's a decoy that distracts people from the fact that on net balance their freedoms are being systematically abridged, not expanded.

Quote: (05-10-2019 11:19 PM)BlastbeatCasanova Wrote:  

Sounds like you either never tried tripping, or became disillusioned with the stereotypical festival burnout. Been there myself. Fact is, in the right situation and mindset, weed, LSD and mushrooms can all give you special insights about the meaning of your life, your place in the world, and especially your relationships with others. I rarely do anything anymore and don't usually "enjoy" it when I do, but every time that I do, I'm better for it.

Beautifully put. Agree 100%.

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Complete bullshit. A trip lasts what, 5 hours? Yea, so you go 5 hours without shooting a gun, BFD. I've fucked when tripping. I've had incredibly intense conversations when tripping. I've reexamined my own morality and ways of treating others based on perspectives gained while tripping, far more effectively than relying on some fictional, antiquated book, be it the Bible, Koran, or Dianetics would've given me. As far as watching politicians, this post reeks of someone who needs to spend less time worrying about them, not more. But if that's where you choose to focus your energy after you eat a bag of shrooms you can certainly do that too.

THANK you!

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I agree with you, and it really comes down to moderation. But I can see where the guys ripping on psychedelics are coming from. It's like the internet. Of course you, I, and the others on this forum are using the internet to communicate with like-minded folks in a positive manner, seeking enlightenment and self-improvement. Once you remove the lens of self-bias "I use this thing this way, so everyone does," you realize that the majority of people are not using the internet to seek truth, they are using it to further brainwash themselves and/or consume worthless media/propaganda. The same can probably be said about psychedelics; is the average Joe gaining self enlightenment or doing it for the "sick visuals, bro" at whatever herpes breeding-ground music festival?

All the same, I'm of the opinion that the government shouldn't make laws about what we as autonomous humans consume and put into our bodies. I'm for legalization of shrooms and other substances. And the point about alcohol stands solid, alcohol is one of the most destructive substances available to humans, the fact that it is legal while medicinal plants have been illegal is the biggest fucking joke.

Exactly!

I think it was Joe Rogan who said, if weed fucked you up you were that way before the weed got there.
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#23

Denver, CO approves decriminalization of psilocybin mushrooms

Answering all posts since my last post:


Yes Alcohol is even worse then mushrooms. Or most of the lightweight drugs. I do not use either.

To all of the defendants of psychedelics. You reap much more benefits if you do honest meditation instead. But that requires more discipline and morality. Psychedelics is a quick cheat path. No high quality spiritual teacher recommends using the quick cheat way of using psychedelics. And no Steve Jobs and similar "successful" people who attribute their worldly success to drugs are not spiritual teachers they are fronts for corporations and what comes from their mouths is what is good for corporations and consumer society and not for you. Drugs is a quick path, but it's a dead end. Meditation is the proper way to achieve superior results but it is slower. It is the consumer identity in you that says you need an external object, purchased by money to get spiritual. It's a deception. At best I see it as a good way to convince some atheist about existence of higher realities, even that will not always work, and for that you need only a one time use. Repeated use is not really justified.


And lastly - procreation is not the same as sex. If you still make the mistake of confusing sex with procreation then you have been asleep your whole life! Look at western society - sex seems to be everywhere but procreation is at it's lowest ever. At the same time in traditionalists societies sex is absent from public sphere but procreation goes on in overdrive.
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#24

Denver, CO approves decriminalization of psilocybin mushrooms

Quote: (05-11-2019 03:37 AM)Mage Wrote:  

Yes Alcohol is even worse then mushrooms. Or most of the lightweight drugs. I do not use either.

Good for you. But you haven't any right to enforce your opinion of what you think others ought to do with their bodies through the use of force (vis a vis the state). Which is what you're implicitly endorsing because you believe the ends justify the means.

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To all of the defendants of psychedelics. You reap much more benefits if you do honest meditation instead. But that requires more discipline and morality.

Are you speaking from your own experience with both meditation and psychedelics, or from a position of self-righteousness because you took the so called 'honest' path? I agree with you that consistent meditation practice is an amazing boon to your life. But it's a false dichotomy that you need choose one or the other. They are both tools.

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Psychedelics is a quick cheat path.


I would say that using psychedelics productively and therapeutically is a long term project and there's nothing quick or easy about it. It's only a cheat path if you use them nilly willy, in which case the only person getting cheated is you.

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No high quality spiritual teacher recommends using the quick cheat way of using psychedelics.


Hmm, really? What about the shamans of countless cultures who use them to facilitate vision quests, rights of passage, and other spiritual journeys?

I don't know which spiritual teachers you're referring to, but nobody who understands anything about psychedelics or has any substantial experience taking them or sitting with somebody who has taken them would call them a quick cheat way. If that were really true, people would only need to take a psychedelic once and then all of their spiritual and existential questions would be solved.

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And no Steve Jobs and similar "successful" people who attribute their worldly success to drugs are not spiritual teachers they are fronts for corporations and what comes from their mouths is what is good for corporations and consumer society and not for you.

Ah the old standby, the corporate bogeyman...

Steve Jobs took LSD and evangelized about it to his friends back when he had no corporation to speak of. Let's see what he actually said:

"Taking LSD was a profound experience, one of the most important things in my life. LSD shows you that there’s another side to the coin, and you can’t remember it when it wears off, but you know it. It reinforced my sense of what was important—creating great things instead of making money, putting things back into the stream of history and of human consciousness as much as I could.”

By the way, in the excellent biography by Sir Walter Isaacson about Jobs, it also mentions that he spent countless hours meditating. He in no way categorically ascribes his material success to LSD.

It's a tool in your toolbox and you can use it rightly or misuse it as any other tool.

I'll also say that I have a friend who is a very successful entrepreneur. And you'll be happy to hear, Mage, that he's both procreated with his wife (twice!) and is quite gregarious. [Image: wink.gif] Anyway, his whole family has a history of depression and several of his immediate family members are on prescription anti-depressant drugs.

He also has highly depressive tendencies but he went a different route. He took up exercising (BJJ), spending more time with good friends, going out into nature for hikes and adventures, and taking psychedelics. He reckons he completely cured himself of all depression.

Did the psychedelics do it? Certainly not by themselves but they helped. You speak of corporate interests and consumerism squashing the individual but look how in this case my friend avoided daily consumption of psychotropic drugs pumped out by big pharma and dispensed like candy by doctors when they are KNOWN to be dangerous, and instead enjoys occasional psychedelic trips with drugs KNOWN to be virtually harmless.

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Drugs is a quick path, but it's a dead end.


Again, I don't know where you're getting your information but in my personal experience and that of people I know very well, it's not quick and it's not a dead end.

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Meditation is the proper way to achieve superior results but it is slower.

This is a false dichotomy.

It's like saying that going out into the sun every day is the 'proper' way to produce Vitamin D and taking a D3 supplement is a quick cheat path. And no 'high quality' nutritionist would support it.

Both meditation and psychedelics have a place in your toolbox. But then again, "if your only tool's a hammer..."

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It is the consumer identity in you that says you need an external object, purchased by money to get spiritual. It's a deception. At best I see it as a good way to convince some atheist about existence of higher realities, even that will not always work, and for that you need only a one time use. Repeated use is not really justified.

Let's be clear, there's nothing wrong with being a consumer per se.

And in fact you cannot NOT be a consumer unless you go off the grid and become self-sufficient. And even that requires preparation that involves buying the setup you need.

If it weren't for the amazing system we have in which some people produce and most people consume we wouldn't even be fussing over this from the comfort of our computers, thousands of miles apart from each other. Nor would you have food in your fridge, nor even a fridge.

It's unthinking, mindless consumerism that is the problem. In fact, it is unthinking mindlessness that is the problem.

If somebody's a diabetic and they need to 'buy and consume' insulin to stay alive will you hold them in contempt for their 'consumer identity'? The fact that we can get the things we need and want so easily and so plentifully is a miracle. Thank GOD for consumerism!

It's the ability to be discriminating, mindful, and informed about what you consume and how you consume it that matters, not the consumption in and of itself.

Osho referred to his conception of man as Zorba the Buddha. In short, he believed (and I tend to agree) that there's no reason you should live as a starving ascetic and torture your body for the deification of your spirit. You are not split between spirit and body; you are both. And you should enjoy your life and get your enlightenment however you can get it. Because you may well keel over one day while naval gazing anyway.

And you don't need any money to go out into the field and pick magic mushrooms. [Image: smile.gif]

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And lastly - procreation is not the same as sex. If you still make the mistake of confusing sex with procreation then you have been asleep your whole life! Look at western society - sex seems to be everywhere but procreation is at it's lowest ever. At the same time in traditionalists societies sex is absent from public sphere but procreation goes on in overdrive.

I know man, I'm even somnambutyping this as we speak. I'll wake up one day and understand the distinction. Don't give up on me!

And while I'm all for procreation, I seriously doubt that legalizing ALL drugs much less a few psychedelics would have any substantial impact on birth rate. There are much more significant cultural and sociopolitical factors that influence the decision to have kids, how many, etc., than whether or not you chew on mushrooms from time to time.

Finally, whether or not I procreate and to what extent is my business and mine alone. And you have no right to enforce through state violence your subjective notions of how much people should be breeding, participating in politics, shooting guns, or whatever else YOU think is good for me.

That's why I said before that your first post advocates an "end justifies the means" morality. Which is to say, no morality. Ends ("more procreation", "gun range businesses booming", "churches overflowing", etc.) justify the means ("state telling you what you may or may not consume").
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#25

Denver, CO approves decriminalization of psilocybin mushrooms

Quote: (05-11-2019 12:37 PM)VincentVinturi Wrote:  

Quote: (05-11-2019 03:37 AM)Mage Wrote:  

Yes Alcohol is even worse then mushrooms. Or most of the lightweight drugs. I do not use either.

Good for you. But you haven't any right to enforce your opinion of what you think others ought to do with their bodies through the use of force (vis a vis the state). Which is what you're implicitly endorsing because you believe the ends justify the means.

Whaat? I never endorsed a prohibition. I am merely saying you better should not be using these substances and treat the government decision to decriminalize it with suspicion rather then some sudden act of good will. If government would sufddenly turn to all about freedom they really should start from more important things like freedom of speech, allodial rights or whatever not drugs.

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To all of the defendants of psychedelics. You reap much more benefits if you do honest meditation instead. But that requires more discipline and morality.

Are you speaking from your own experience with both meditation and psychedelics, or from a position of self-righteousness because you took the so called 'honest' path? I agree with you that consistent meditation practice is an amazing boon to your life. But it's a false dichotomy that you need choose one or the other. They are both tools.

I practice meditation and have good results and positive influence in my life. To suggest that you need to try drugs to be able to speak against them is another lie that drug using people often use.

No you do not need to try every shit in your life to kno w it is bad and speak against it. Drug users use this deceptive rhetoric. Even Muslims use that deceptive rhetoric that you cannot criticise Islam if you are not Islamic scholar and that suggests youdo not know what you are talking about, This is false logic

Everyone who uses this false logic is a liar.

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Psychedelics is a quick cheat path.


I would say that using psychedelics productively and therapeutically is a long term project and there's nothing quick or easy about it. It's only a cheat path if you use them nilly willy, in which case the only person getting cheated is you.

Therapeutically? Sorry I do not believe in prescription medicine for psychological disorders in 90% of cases as practiced in West. It only makes people dependent on it and makes new problems.

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No high quality spiritual teacher recommends using the quick cheat way of using psychedelics.


Hmm, really? What about the shamans of countless cultures who use them to facilitate vision quests, rights of passage, and other spiritual journeys?

These shamans usually come from cultures where meditation is not well known and practiced like native Americans or Excimos. Why would you learn from cultures that haven't even invented wheel when you have much richer teachings from European and Asian traditions?

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I don't know which spiritual teachers you're referring to, but nobody who understands anything about psychedelics or has any substantial experience taking them or sitting with somebody who has taken them would call them a quick cheat way. If that were really true, people would only need to take a psychedelic once and then all of their spiritual and existential questions would be solved.

I said it's a dead end at some point. of course nothing is really solved. It can merely convince you that there is something more then the mundane world.

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And no Steve Jobs and similar "successful" people who attribute their worldly success to drugs are not spiritual teachers they are fronts for corporations and what comes from their mouths is what is good for corporations and consumer society and not for you.

Ah the old standby, the corporate bogeyman...

Steve Jobs took LSD and evangelized about it to his friends back when he had no corporation to speak of. Let's see what he actually said:

"Taking LSD was a profound experience, one of the most important things in my life. LSD shows you that there’s another side to the coin, and you can’t remember it when it wears off, but you know it. It reinforced my sense of what was important—creating great things instead of making money, putting things back into the stream of history and of human consciousness as much as I could.”

By the way, in the excellent biography by Sir Walter Isaacson about Jobs, it also mentions that he spent countless hours meditating. He in no way categorically ascribes his material success to LSD.

It's a tool in your toolbox and you can use it rightly or misuse it as any other tool.

I'll also say that I have a friend who is a very successful entrepreneur. And you'll be happy to hear, Mage, that he's both procreated with his wife (twice!) and is quite gregarious. [Image: wink.gif] Anyway, his whole family has a history of depression and several of his immediate family members are on prescription anti-depressant drugs.

He also has highly depressive tendencies but he went a different route. He took up exercising (BJJ), spending more time with good friends, going out into nature for hikes and adventures, and taking psychedelics. He reckons he completely cured himself of all depression.

Did the psychedelics do it? Certainly not by themselves but they helped. You speak of corporate interests and consumerism squashing the individual but look how in this case my friend avoided daily consumption of psychotropic drugs pumped out by big pharma and dispensed like candy by doctors when they are KNOWN to be dangerous, and instead enjoys occasional psychedelic trips with drugs KNOWN to be virtually harmless.

The examples you listed all mention that the people used various methods in combination so there is no proof that psychedelics did the trick.

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Drugs is a quick path, but it's a dead end.


Again, I don't know where you're getting your information but in my personal experience and that of people I know very well, it's not quick and it's not a dead end.

Quote:Quote:

Meditation is the proper way to achieve superior results but it is slower.

This is a false dichotomy.

It's like saying that going out into the sun every day is the 'proper' way to produce Vitamin D and taking a D3 supplement is a quick cheat path. And no 'high quality' nutritionist would support it.

But of course going out in the Sun is the proper way of doing it and taking vitamin D is a less desirable option. Fuck these "high quality nutritionists" who want you to spend money. I wonder how did people survive before artificial vitamins were invented.

Now I am not strictly against taking vitamin D, but you really should go into sun first and in my experience it is enough. It is no life for a man to take vitamin D and stay indoors for whole days. Vitamin D will never substitute real outdoor time.

Meditation and drugs is a false dichotomy. You may play with both once you are a noob, but you better drop drugs once you get better at meditation or you risk going crazy once you activate higher chakras. There are millions of examples of people who ended up in crazy-house or had to drop all meditation and relapsed to Christianity because they took drugs in parallel to meditation.



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Both meditation and psychedelics have a place in your toolbox. But then again, "if your only tool's a hammer..."

Drugs are the hammer. Meditation is a fine scalpel, even more like a set of various tools. Were you trying to suggest that meditation is something primitive like a hammer and drugs is some sophisticated tool? Seriously? Wrong, meditation is more like a set of many tools. You can meditate in many different ways. Well probably you can take drugs in different ways too, but it is still much more like to just taking them and then just being dependent on the result. Ergo the term - tripping.

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It is the consumer identity in you that says you need an external object, purchased by money to get spiritual. It's a deception. At best I see it as a good way to convince some atheist about existence of higher realities, even that will not always work, and for that you need only a one time use. Repeated use is not really justified.

Let's be clear, there's nothing wrong with being a consumer per se.

And in fact you cannot NOT be a consumer unless you go off the grid and become self-sufficient. And even that requires preparation that involves buying the setup you need.

If it weren't for the amazing system we have in which some people produce and most people consume we wouldn't even be fussing over this from the comfort of our computers, thousands of miles apart from each other. Nor would you have food in your fridge, nor even a fridge.

It's unthinking, mindless consumerism that is the problem. In fact, it is unthinking mindlessness that is the problem.

If somebody's a diabetic and they need to 'buy and consume' insulin to stay alive will you hold them in contempt for their 'consumer identity'? The fact that we can get the things we need and want so easily and so plentifully is a miracle. Thank GOD for consumerism!

It's the ability to be discriminating, mindful, and informed about what you consume and how you consume it that matters, not the consumption in and of itself.

Osho referred to his conception of man as Zorba the Buddha. In short, he believed (and I tend to agree) that there's no reason you should live as a starving ascetic and torture your body for the deification of your spirit. You are not split between spirit and body; you are both. And you should enjoy your life and get your enlightenment however you can get it. Because you may well keel over one day while naval gazing anyway.

And you don't need any money to go out into the field and pick magic mushrooms. [Image: smile.gif]

You are now taking it to extremes like if I would have suggested that any use of money is evil.

Osho is not really the best or cleanest teacher to listen to.

Well you can pick your mushrooms alright, but how many people do collect any other consumable from a nature directly nowadays? 99% of people buy anything they consume like food and water.

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And lastly - procreation is not the same as sex. If you still make the mistake of confusing sex with procreation then you have been asleep your whole life! Look at western society - sex seems to be everywhere but procreation is at it's lowest ever. At the same time in traditionalists societies sex is absent from public sphere but procreation goes on in overdrive.

I know man, I'm even somnambutyping this as we speak. I'll wake up one day and understand the distinction. Don't give up on me!

And while I'm all for procreation, I seriously doubt that legalizing ALL drugs much less a few psychedelics would have any substantial impact on birth rate. There are much more significant cultural and sociopolitical factors that influence the decision to have kids, how many, etc., than whether or not you chew on mushrooms from time to time.

Finally, whether or not I procreate and to what extent is my business and mine alone. And you have no right to enforce through state violence your subjective notions of how much people should be breeding, participating in politics, shooting guns, or whatever else YOU think is good for me.

That's why I said before that your first post advocates an "end justifies the means" morality. Which is to say, no morality. Ends ("more procreation", "gun range businesses booming", "churches overflowing", etc.) justify the means ("state telling you what you may or may not consume").

Of course drugs is not the only way that is culpable of dropping birth rates. But it's one of the things that could contribute to that. I think you understand that. One more distraction among social networks, TV, video games, party culture etc.

I already said I am not suggesting any regulations. Why did you accuse me of that. Dishonest thing you did. I am merely speaking against drug use even if legal.
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