[Fortis]

I recently went on 5 dates with a chick. I thought I really liked her but honestly, I was more into the rare mix that she was than the chick herself. I ghosted after the fifth date and she was gracious enough not to pretend to be interested in meeting up again. It went smoothly. I suspect she was also just not that into me. She would bring me gifts and stuff but I never got much of any feeling off of her. Gifts really mean fuckall when I'm the one fronting the bills on dates and stuff. There were a few makeouts but that wasn't enough to tide me over.

I don't really see it as time wasted since I had a good time, but I was not willing to put in another 5 dates if that is what it took. Just not really my thing. Even for a mini-LTR (also my preference) if she doesn't smash within 3-dates (roughly one-month timespan), I usually assume she has some issue from a previous relationship.

Could I have thrown away a really good girl? Maybe, but as for the girl, I don't really see the value of pretending to put yourself out there if you're going to stonewall well beyond reasonable limits.

As for tactics, honestly, I should have just gone faceroll aggressive the last time I had her at my spot. I don't really put myself in situations where I am talking to a girl I am willing to wait for 5 dates for. This isn't the 1920s. I'm certain with a different vibe I could have fucked her the first night I met her.

I suspect it would have something to do peaking her emotions more while also being more comforting. I'm told I can be a bit cold, which is probably offputting to girls who are expecting someone more romantic.

If I were to redo those dates, I'd have kino'd a lot more relentlessly (a habit I used to have before moving to Asia), gotten her back to my spot and then gone for the smash. It would have probably required a lot of back-and-forth escalation, too.

Think old school mystery method. You get the makeout and then pull back for a bit, tell some story about yourself. Go for the make out again and then keep turning it up until you got the bang.

[RatInTheWoods]

Thanks guys, some great thoughts and insights here.

A few notes:

"she not into you" I agree - reason being she's 3 points higher SMV... so of course if I was a movie star/bass player she wouldn't make me wait, but game has got me into the hunt, and in with a chance to punch above my weight - which is what this forum is all about no?

But you watch me fuck her none the less

I have nexted a few who were "taking it slow" when their SMV was not high enough above me to warrant it :-)

I have also banged many a woman who had "take it slow" and "lets be friends first" in her profile on the first date, because of game and she was horny and bullshitting.

But some really do want to take it slow. They don't have many on the go, or other options, they just want one at a time, and to go slow. I kind of like that, it speaks of class and sincerity, not to mention good hygiene.

One recent bang had waited 4 years for a man to "wait until she was ready" which was only 4-5 dates (despite her saying it would take months) and OMFG that was the best sex in many eons, as she was so ripe for the taking after such a break. I also have to admit the bond we made during a longer date period made it extra sexy. She had routed all the "players" who have no game or patience for the long hunt....

Another Milf who took patience to nail was well worth it, as I later found out I was her second penis in her 40 years old life, the first being her husband.
I went on to teach her many things, and she was a delight that paid back my patience waiting period 100 times over.

There are fruits for the patient gamer.

Uncle Rattie says: A faint heart never fucked a fair maiden

[MaceTyrell]

Cool thread.

Helps me realize the last time I took more than 3 dates to bang a girl was in college, 2013. I simultaneously haven’t really smashed anything I would rate higher than a 7 though.

SNLing 8s is just a harder game. Agree with the general advice of keeping things on the cheap.

[N°6]

Very interesting:

https://youtu.be/kE5KDai2bFk

[outback]

"Uncle Rattie says: A faint heart never fucked a fair maiden"

^^^
This x10.
My best bangs have all involved a leap of faith/guts that girls notice and respect, behaviour that's outside the norm.


From experience you need to make a call within the first like 30 minutes of chat/texting whether it's genuine resistance or not. It's really easy to lose the genuine ones by being impatient and giving her Player vibes, and easier to lose the fakers by being too slow and a Beta. Unless she's a genuine hold out, escalating fast never hurts your chances... it's what women expect virulent men to so. Every chick respects it and knows it's how men should behave.


If they're super comfortable in themselves, and their surroundings (bar, coffee shop, whatever), even if it's relaxed and low key, it's probably fake resistance, just a test of you, and you need to escalate fast and aggressively otherwise she'll tag you as Beta quickly. Chicks who are genuine hold-outs have somewhat uptight, slightly awkward, or naive body language for obvious reasons, and importantly they also have a really solid life story - i.e. they've actually really invested in themselves, be it career achievement, some big family issue overcome, religion/cultural tradition, or some offbeat passion/hobby etc. The character required to genuinely hold out on Chads should manifest itself in another part of her life.


The hardest part, and the fear that needs to be overcome is when it's fake resistance and you're still getting nowhere because she's just not that into you, she just wants attention/is killing time that hour, as one particularly horrible one told me... Need to cut these types ruthlessly, mercilessly and fast.

[Anchor Man]

@ outback
Totally agree with you .
But how can you tell the difference between geinuine interest and attention whore / string you along ?
It is just based on the player instincts ?
I rely mostly on the subconscious body language signs , as those are hard to fake

[Redcrus]

(04-23-2019 08:15 PM)Graft Wrote:  

I have one of these right now.

Super hot, but she's a FOB from Iran. It's been four or five dates so far and absolutely zero.

I asked her what we are, she said: "people on planet Earth." I pretty much mentally nexted her right there.

She's gotta give me something, I'm shelling out too much time and money for that kind of answer.

Holy shit if a girl said that to me I'd bang my head against the wall, literally.

You may need a different approach altogether and ramp up a few gears to get her or keep the slow approach if you're content with this. Good luck and let us know how it goes

[outback]

I reckon 9/10 chicks can be gamed to bang, regardless or what they say, but obviously not always successfully unless you're DiCaprio / Bieber (lol but it's true). Be funny, confident and project higher value than her by being nonchalant and slightly amused when she inevitably tells you how awesome she is, then escalate smoothly.

Women like men who seem as if they've done it all before - they think you'll be a better and non-committal bang, which is what you want, and actually what they want to. All women want to bang the Alpha, and the Alpha is a smooth ladies' man -always be that guy at the first meeting/date - always. Don't ever self deprecate, act uncertain about who you are or what you want, or be sarcastic to try and get a laugh (women naturally know sarcasm is a substitute for lack of wit, they're watching you).

Women don't understand the natural comfort that men have walking around in the world, and the ability to self-deprecate that comes with that. Women's lives are a race against their biological clock and a fight to ensure their offsprings' eternal survival. Remember that and never show weakness when dating/seducing, because women need survival. Rom-com / TV-show good guy dating schmucks are spat out and destroyed by women in real life, even if it's not obvious.

Further, if she's not willing to at least escalate to intimacy (not necessarily straight to bang) after good gaming (you'll know when you've done it, as you'll have impressed yourself) the problem is usually hers, and it's usually a lack of confidence or a BF,, and do you really care if you miss out on a chick that doesn't know her way around and will be a pain anyway cos she's angsty about whether she should or shouldn't act on her natural impulses? Some do, some don't.

The other 1/10 will have something in their lives that's given them to character to say no, because it's not biologically natural to resist. They'll make this known to you early on if you inquire about her life as it'll be important to her identity/ego... usually they have an amazing career and equate this to a need to be highly selective with men in order to maintain their ego; a fucked up family or ex husband they've overcome; or they've cultural tradition/religious reasons.

[RatInTheWoods]

(04-25-2019 04:49 PM)Redcrus Wrote:  

I asked her what we are, she said: "people on planet Earth." I pretty much mentally nexted her right there.

Holy shit if a girl said that to me I'd bang my head against the wall, literally.

[/quote]

Cocky amused Girl game recognised!

[Distant Light]

OP, what you speak is an oxymoron...
- Expectation of mini ltr / ltr (Eye roll...ok)
- Is worried when a chick plays "hold out gane"

These chicks only wanna take it "slow" with you as you're not the right guy.

Apparently ex CLAIMS to have held back as I apparently tried to go behind a curtain with her I don't even recall, she declined yet apparently REALLY LIKED ME (Eye roll #2)

I'll be frank with you as it is only a 1% chance it should be occuring...
- Interaction has little to no sexual tension or urgency for sed
- You lack a sexually active vibe (You don't come off as a dude where sex is a normal part of your life)
- NOT YOUR FAULT, chick might have her own issues/beliefs (I've met like 5 girls who had a viewpoint of "true love" I've probed even spent an 1hr+ hearing their outlook...This is SUPER RARE)
...NOT YOUR FAULT, woman hiding her past...Most men are judgmental so like lil kids they hearing a girl did something and attraction dissipates as there ego of "only I have ever attracted/bed her" is triggered (It is retarded)
...Lastly see below***

One of my older female friends was like this saying guys gotta whine and dine. I was so deep in my life I chuckled telling her if RIGHT GUY comes along she will do almost anything...Insisted NO...Invited the RIGHT GUY, she sucked him off in the bathroom and went home. Next day she had a look "yeaaa dont say anything" as she knew what I was about to say. I just told her I purposely brought the guy out KNOWING things would play out.

Now something to note, that 1% chance of it coming up doesn't mean something is wrong with you...I don't mean logistics or any of those typical variables...It is that situation where it is probable if you meet again sex if you're willing is probable. (In past used to purposely backlog as a way to have option of sex everyday from 1-3 different girls with having to compromise my social life)

The issue (given OP) is lack of experience & understanding of being the womans RIGHT GUY sexually...And i don't mean making out in less than a minute...
- Fingering chicks right where you stand
- Inability to keep hands off each other that you're in taxi/uber eating pussy, fingering, sucking on tits
- In the club sucking on tits as she grinds on your thigh
- Going home almost instantly
- Public Sex
- Chicks telling their friends to chill out as they already have set
- Exchanging info purely to meetup for sex

Most men never see the peeled back layers of a chick being her female primal self...Logic is void & the sexuality will scare most men. I used to joke with people that sexually I'm a degenerate due to all cultural factors being void...Were fucking animals.

Having expectation of mini ltrs is like saying you want to dine eating crab legs in a full white suit and expect to not get dirty...You go against the make up of human nature while trying to sugar coat with your beliefs (whether personal or cultural)

You have to BE that guy who taps into the innate feminine side of women...

EVEN if you decide to "ponder" it isn't a TAKE IT SLOW...It is more of a "DAMN I wanna fuck that guy but when will he be willing?" You know where you are when people assume just because your presence isn't around you...You're probably FUCKING...

Whole dating avenue is inherently setup to make many things I mention void. You already throw on cultural beliefs and labels putting yourself in a box.

Imagine...chick going on a DATE, 2mins later in bathroom fucking. How was your date cindy? Fucked in 2mins WHAT!?!?

Reminds me of a time meeting my boys at some meh but popular bar in BK. Met a girl randomly online she stated she was meeting her tinder date...

Jokingly told her to find me. Lets just say guy had a DATE...She came to me, madeout had it set we would go to an old fb house to smoke and then back to her place. She went back to her date for 30mins...I hung with my boys. Left having fun as we walk to old fb place before hopping on a bus to hers.

The guy on the actual date had no clue...Less than 12hrs have passed and she is wishing her roomate wasn't present so we could fuck in the shower. Thing is it was all in good fun...

What is there to slow down? Why project unnecessary BS? What is there to judge? (most dudes quick to slut shame and devalue her)

When it comes to sexuality humans are STILL "toddlers" there is so much unnecessary baggage around sex...Yet it is one of the biggest themes to market things. It is even worst in terms of female sexuality, science downplays female sexuality all throughout history. (Sexology came a thing around same time as radiology...look up radiology in comparison to sexology)

It is a tragedy society has done to female sexuality BUT when you personally have tapped into and experienced...One of the most amazing experiences in terms of human to human interaction. However, most times you'll never even reach such a point given all the garbage revolving around sexuality. (One of my fav moments revealing this was a taxi driver asking to drive the girl & I around while we have sex in the taxi for FREE...I was devouring pussy from moment hopped in taxi to end point. If I could go back in time id have said HELLLLL YAAAA as I now lookback at how my memory fades and just how much stimulating sexual moments I should've/could've recorded #DoItForScience)

P.S...This isn't an over night thing you gotta explore and drop your expectations let it play out organically based HOW YOU MESH. Biasing outcomes will steer you down a road of detours and BS. A big issue with LTRs is the interpretation that DIFFERENT means better...Really it just mean unfamiliar character in given circumstances. Experience will show you what aspects of women mesh well with you and he consistency of those things is where you should focus on NOT "different" which is an aspect why LTRs seem to implode in spectacular fails.

[RatInTheWoods]

Distant light, I agree and disagree with you on a few things:

Yes if I was much higher SMV I would wait less time. I can "fingerbang first date" women 3 points lower SMV, but you are never going to do that with a woman three points higher.
For her, game is the only reason you are in with a chance, and then it takes time.

There are women who don't suck dudes off in the toilet first date, no matter their higher SMV or "game" - I feel sad you haven't met and dated them.

You can take it slow, and be the right guy. LTRS build on a few dates instead of instant bathroom fellatio are actually a thing you know.

I think a woman's reluctance to instant sex isn';t society's fault entirely, its also evolutionary hard wired. Getting a baby put inside her is a life risking decision, the more evolved women are hesitant and evaluate a man before giving him access to her baby making equipment.

[StrikeBack]

(04-27-2019 01:03 PM)Distant Light Wrote:  

One of my older female friends was like this saying guys gotta whine and dine. I was so deep in my life I chuckled telling her if RIGHT GUY comes along she will do almost anything...Insisted NO...Invited the RIGHT GUY, she sucked him off in the bathroom and went home. Next day she had a look "yeaaa dont say anything" as she knew what I was about to say. I just told her I purposely brought the guy out KNOWING things would play out.

You have a massive selection bias. Women in your life, especially your female friends, are the types who are cool with party guys like yourself. Of course they are talking shit when they pretend to be anything but slutty. They're older than you, they are definitely not virgins, they are not married with children - that automatically means slutty to me, I don't need to hear any word coming out of their mouths.

Women I would consider LTR materials do not have male friends at all, let alone male friends who live the party lifestyle like you do. You will never run into them and they will never run into you because your paths likely never cross.

It doesn't mean that the latter can't be turned into her man's personal slut, but they won't suck off some random guy, even the one they are very attracted to, straight off the first night in the bathroom of a club - because they would never go there in the first place.

I'm not judging your lifestyle, it works for you, but watch out for the bias in your perspectives.

Quote:

I think a woman's reluctance to instant sex isn';t society's fault entirely, its also evolutionary hard wired. Getting a baby put inside her is a life risking decision, the more evolved women are hesitant and evaluate a man before giving him access to her baby making equipment.

I think women are all like that by design, except that the pill has reprogrammed a large majority of them in modern times to have sex like men without a care for the consequences. You'll find that one critical LTR quality is the woman never having been on the pill.

[SW15]

I won't accept "friends first". I don't want to have a female friend. I want something romantic. I won't accept a friendship frame under any circumstance. It's important for me to hold frame that this is a romantic interaction.

To some extent, I can deal with a woman wanting to take things slow. It will test my patience. If she's receptive to kissing, and she's not acting flaky and showing she can be reliable, I won't next her. I couldn't imagine going 10 dates and not having sex though. Over the years, I can't recall a woman taking it that slow.

[EndsExpect]

(04-27-2019 05:23 PM)RatInTheWoods Wrote:  

Distant light, I agree and disagree with you on a few things:
Yes if I was much higher SMV I would wait less time. I can "fingerbang first date" women 3 points lower SMV, but you are never going to do that with a woman three points higher.
For her, game is the only reason you are in with a chance, and then it takes time.
There are women who don't suck dudes off in the toilet first date, no matter their higher SMV or "game" - I feel sad you haven't met and dated them.
You can take it slow, and be the right guy. LTRS build on a few dates instead of instant bathroom fellatio are actually a thing you know
I think a woman's reluctance to instant sex isn';t society's fault entirely, its also evolutionary hard wired. Getting a baby put inside her is a life risking decision, the more evolved women are hesitant and evaluate a man before giving him access to her baby making equipment.

Rat, the biggest key here is to figure out why she wants to go slow.

Some women do that just because they don't want to you think they are a slut... that's easy to overcome.

Older women especially have been humped and dumped many times before and have learned making a guy wait gives them a better chance. This is harder to overcome but it also can be done.

Some women have religious beliefs in play. I honestly wouldn't even mess with that... but again it can be overcome by utilizing her hamster. For example... In my experience convincing muslim girls that anal sex isn't really sex is a lot easier than it sounds. Most of them want the intimacy, but are actually afraid of the broken hymen thing.

My advice is to figure out what this woman is thinking and then come back to us. I believe at that point you will get some amazing suggestions.

Best of Luck my Friend!

[HAcoreRD]

I know it isn't a popular view on this forum, but there are cases where regardless of the quality of your game the girl just isn't open to bang on the first date. Given, this is rare, but I have found myself truly convinced of this a couple of times. You kind of realize that you live in different worlds, where your own casual sex-filled life contrast starkly to their everyday life. You see this especially in cases where the girl is inexperienced or even a virgin, cases where having sex might be incredibly difficult due to anxiety and insecurity, even if they in their head want to have sex with you. You may build perfect comfort, but if they aren't comfortable with sex itself it's not going to get you the bang.

[godzilla]

I have a 3 date rule. If a girl is not willing to come to my house or vice versa by date 3 then it's on the next one.

In my experience, girls won't even bother talking to you after date 3 anyway, unless...

a) You're providing them with the attention that they want without physical escalation.
b) Providing them with money via dinner, etc.

I don't have this rule because I don't like good girls, quite the opposite. but we're in a hyper-sexualized society and after date 3, they are probably staying around for the wrong reasons.

On good girls, Hmm, yea they exist. A good girl also understands your desire for sex, and if she is not going to provide that, the right man for her will get it from somewhere else. She will at least provide you with a hand job or let you smack her face with your dick.

P.S. This advice applies to most men who live in major cities in Europe and the United States but probably works in a lot more places.

[Feldeinsamkeit]

If a girl hasn't put out by date 3, then there's only three possibilities: (1) She's a "good girl" who wants to go slow because she is constitutionally incapable of dropping those drawers after the first date; they're about as rare as hen's teeth in major western centres of population, (2) She judges you to be not hot enough for her and she requires more "investment" to justify giving up the goods and (3) You're being played for your attention.

Take your pick, based on the contextual clues.

[Geomann180]

Several things I think are important to keep in mind:

1) You have to enjoy her company. If you're not fucking her and you want to be anywhere else, find someone else.

2) Slow sexually doesn't mean slow physically. If she absolutely refuses to touch you or kiss you past the first or second date, that's way different than not wanting to sleep with you right away.

Just wanna be friends to me is a no. Taking it slow is fine. In fact, I'm seeing a girl now that I've been talking to for four weeks. We had a really good date at a Karaoke place in DC and ended up making out in her car and talking until 4 in the morning. I didn't have logistics to bang and she wouldn't let me anywhere other than her face, neck, and ass (over the clothes). She told me we weren't gonna have sex anytime soon and I told her, "Ok, I'm still gonna see you again." I saw her a few more times, going for a walk, watching a movie, going to Karaoke again (I love singing Karaoke so I invited her to watch). She split the bills on things and sometimes she paid. So I could tell she enjoyed my company and wanted to keep seeing me. We eventually slept together on a mini trip we took to Hershey Pennsylvania (and she can suck a mean dick, lemme tell you). I didn't mind waiitng because I really enjoyed her company. I've been with enough woman that I'm not worried if a woman's jerking me around if she doesn't sleep with my right away like I used to be. I suspect you're in a similar boat.

G

[Beyond Borders]

The girl I'm living with now (Filipina from a traditional conservative family) was a virgin when we first met.

We spent a long time dating before we even kissed, let alone had sex.

This was manageable for me because we lived in different cities at first, and because as long as she wasn't satisfying me sexually, I allowed myself the freedom to get the pussy elsewhere. I don't mess around on her now that we've passed that stage (not saying it would never happen but certainly not something I'm on the lookout for).

Anyhow...

We'd been talking online off and on for some months and both had expressed quite a bit of interest in each other. I started making plans to hop on a boat and go meet her.

Suddenly she tried to slip in a little subtle speed bump that day before I even got on the boat...I made a comment about our "date" (probably my own way of verifying expectations) and in a good-natured manner she rebutted that we were meeting as "friends" rather than going on a date.

Uh, wot?

Full stop. I put the issue right out on the table.

I told her, look we've been talking a while now and both made it clear we're into each other. Seeing if we want to move this forward is the ONLY reason I'm coming to see you. I'm fine with taking it slow, but if I'm getting on a boat and coming to get a motel room in your city, it's a date. Period.

If not, I'm canceling this trip and you can find some other guy to take you out.

As you can imagine, she changed the tune on that one pretty fast and begged me to come.

It's a date! It's a date!

She tried to do something similar a couple times later on while courting her, and each time I pulled the brakes again and forced a 100% unanimous agreement of what we were up to and why. No, I'm not another male in a long line of guys who'd feel lucky to be around you - we're dating or we're not.

Again, was willing to wait and get to know each other more before getting physical (and I was, because last thing I want to do is pump, dump, and ruin the world's dwindling supply of principled women anyways), but no way am I doing that on vague terms or lost somewhere there between a romantic interest and a "friend."

Of course I eventually did bang her.

And I won't lie - it was a hard churn to get there and it took a LOT of patience. I almost gave up on it a couple times. even kissing her and then teaching her to kiss was a fucking chore.

Then for a while it was just making out and "petting." First two or three times that I literally tried to put my dick in her it was too painful/scary for her to take more than the tip (and I've never claimed to be packing much either lol).

In the end I had to to use a little guilt tripping and fear of losing me to get the deed done. She'd been teetering on the edge for too long at this point and needed a good push over.

Now, don't get me wrong...no way in hell would I sign up my average player friend just looking to get another piece of ass to this slow torture...

But...

It was worth it all looking back. 100%.

I have a great chick now. I very well may marry her or plant a couple kids in her someday, and before that, I had gotten to the point where I didn't think I had that in me. I'm approaching 40 so the timing seems right.

Other men (and women) who meet her repeatedly make remarks about what a solid girl I've got and about the connection we have with each other. Can't tell you how many have urged me to put a ring on her finger. You don't hear that much around these parts, either; it's all old sleazy players and miserable divorcees.

Being the only guy she's ever kissed, let alone had sex with, has definitely fostered that strong connection between us. She's very sexual now, so I didn't lose out there even if I had to teach her everything ("cherry" on top - her tits even grew bigger after she started having sex.). She worships the ground I walk on.

In her mind, breaking up isn't an option on the table for discussion, ever. Period.

It is for me, of course - I believe men should always keep a willingness to walk away in his back pocket. But for her no way.

She's also fairly intelligent. Filipina women aren't generally bright as a rule, but this one picks up new skills in a matter of a couple days, runs the books at her work, pulls apart broken electronics and figures out how to fix them on her own, and loves playing chess with me so much she actually beats me from time to time.

This may be a stretch, but I think there's a sign of intelligence in women who hold on to their virginity longer. For one, they better recognize what's in it for them, so to speak, and in my opinion, stupid people just aren't all that great at self control.

Clearly, intelligence is a good thing if I do end up knocking her up.

Bottom line, I feel so much more deeply satisfied with this girl than I ever did with any of the hundreds of casual bangs, or the handfuls of girlfriends I had who handed over the puss on the first 1-3 dates.

Yeah, I had to jump through a lot of hoops. But because of that, I ended up reasonably confident that I'm with someone not just any guy can get his hands on. And a young woman who values integrity, genuine connection, and long-term satisfaction over short-term satisfaction. All things I was missing in a way that made me feel hollow inside...

The influence such a woman has had on my life, the life of a man who has spent decades of his life with no real structure, just drinking and slaying and forsaking anything that might make him feel "tied down," is extremely grounding as well. For the first time in a long time, I feel like I'm obligated to something, that I have something worth working and sacrificing for.

It's an intimidating but liberating feeling both at once.

Do you put a woman on a pedestal by waiting and "courting" her?

I don't think so. It can look that way, and obviously some common sense and awareness is needed - every situation is different. But I think if you're willing to draw a line in the sand (like I did every time she played the "friend" game), it doesn't have to be.

Virgins (and other women who prefer to move slow) are still women and of course will still play games and act like children sometimes. See what they can get away with. Maybe even see if they can get some of your resources without anything in return.

Many guys don't want to rock the boat if they haven't hit it yet, thinking they'll scare the cat. But that's a mistake. Virgins can get emotionally attached before you penetrate, and by default they have more time to toy with you. So you absolutely can and should call them out still when they fuck up.

In my eyes, going slow with a girl isn't necessarily about her value relative to yours (i.e. pussy pedestal concerns). Not at all. It also goes a long way towards defining what you expect in the dynamic between a man and a woman too.

I mean, c'mon - my girl knows I have been a player my whole life and have done all kinds of degenerate shit. I've never hid this from her.

By switching over to old school gentleman for her, we both know I'm "putting on an act" - not as in I'm faking it, but as in I'm accepting a certain role, to play a centuries old "game" with her. And by doing that I send some strong subconscious messages.

Part of that is that yes, you are not like the other girls. I value you more than them.

Not because you are hotter than them or because your pussy smells like roses or something. But because you conduct yourself in a dignified manner and act like a woman worthy of respect (in a world and time where doing that takes true fortitude, no less).

And therefore you deserve my respect, attention, and protection like a lot of other women do not.

That goes both ways, though.

See, if I value and honor those things, I solidify their existence. Now that I've signed on, the last thing my woman will want to do is anything that gives me reason to doubt the game we've chosen to play.

I'm with her because she's a "good girl," and that's very clear. So, if she's no longer that good girl, I have no reason to make the sacrifices I make to be with her.

And then there's this.

You start out with a girl playing "traditional" gender roles and it sets the tone and foundation for your entire relationship. We're not going to be traditional when it comes to the initial courtship and then act like every other dysfunctional gender-confused relationship in every other aspect of our life.

That's just too incongruent.

So, there's sort of an unwritten rule that we've cosigned on sticking with tradition. And that permeates everything we do.

She is 100% absorbed in the art and discipline of being all woman. And has completely submitted to my leadership.

While that's partly just her nature and culture, I believe that signing on to the process of courting and slowly seducing a conservative woman preserves the bargain being struck in a man agreeing to just be a man and a woman agreeing to just be a woman.

And hey, if securing that took some months of blue balls, building massive comfort when all I wanted to do was escalate, and all around feeling like a frustrated 16-year-old kid again...

I'd say what we've got is all the better for it in the end.

Not for everyone, I know. And much easier to find these types in the Philippines than America.

But that's my two cents anyhow.

[BlackFriar]

One thing to wait for a virgin village girl. Another thing to be told you have to wait, by the girl that has more mileage on her than the village bicycle.

[Heath0888]

I am not going to lie, after reading the post and the replies where some of them are basically saying "wait" or whatever. I been in your shoes. My advice is that you need to direct your desire to other areas of your life, like ambitions or taking charge to the point where you do not 'NEED' her or any woman, when you do this and staying busy. Say if you aren't attached to her but still attracted and you have your priorities first, when she calls or what not, and you do not want to give attention, she probably will be curious what you are up to or she will think "is he ignoring me?"

I know this by first hand experience. Let's just say the woman got REALLY pissed at me when I was "busy" and she snapped at me. I am attracted to her but the fact I am not attached.... woo.. talk about feisty lol.

[Mess O.]

I like how Beyond Borders strongly adheres to a policy of both parties willingly acknowledging their meeting as a genuine "date", so as to prohibit the possibility of being "fan-clubbed" into being classified as some goddamn orbiter. More recently I've run into that stupid shit more often, where the girl will rather adamantly insist that it's a "meet & greet", and not a date. And for me to go along with that is idiocy.

Sure, if she were sufficiently attracted to me, all that "this is just a meet-up" shit would be out the window.

[Beyond Borders]

^ Watch some videos by Coach Corey Wayne - his book is worth a read too. Love his stuff.

He's a big proponent of the pull out all the stops approach when women pull this shit. Mark Manson talked about it in "Models" too.

Sometimes you have to force people, esp. women, to polarize in one direction or the other by putting them on the spot...so you don't end up in that "safe," and ultimately useless, grey area in the middle. If I recall correctly, Manson said in various ways that without any polarization there is no attraction; attraction and enthusiasm is the opposite of lukewarm, if you think about it.

To put it more crudely, you can't put your hand on some girl's tit without taking a risk at some point - she'll either like it or she won't and then you'll know. Not that I'm advising you go around grabbing random girls by the tits lol. But I think you get the point: polarization causes good things to either happen or not, and at worst prevents you from wasting your time.

I don't think the "this is a meetup" thing is always a sign they're not attracted, though. Two other things I can think of may be going on here:

1) They're nervous and maintaining an out in case you try to move things along too fast, which is especially a useful protective mechanism for a virgin or woman to whom sex is a big deal. By maintaining some plausible deniability, they preserve the freedom to excuse themselves at any time.

I'd say this was the case with my ole' lady - cold feet going out with an older American guy that no doubt had all the "womanizer" alarms ringing.

Doesn't mean you should buy into it completely because it will kill the attraction eventually if you do. Sometimes building comfort just isn't enough until you spend a bunch of time together, especially with a shy, meek, and inexperienced girl. So you have to push them to shit or get off the pot. And if you don't, you risk seeing things sputter out.

I couldn't know if my antics would work (you WILL lose the broad sometimes doing stuff like this). But I knew that the attraction was there, and if it wasn't, I was willing to walk away and save the time and energy.

2) And/or they're shit-testing you, either subconsciously or not, to see if you're spineless enough to go along with it. Corey Wayne talks a lot about how women are constantly trying to figure out if you're man enough for them, even if they don't realize they're doing it. Just one of their biological imperatives.

Nuking the whole premise without getting over-emotional about it gets you through that test pretty quickly. And then their attraction level increases as a result of seeing you think and act like a man who insists on having things his way or no way.

[Mess O.]

Definitely a fan of Corey Wayne. I've yet to get a hold of his book, but I will.