[coffeedrinker]

Went on a date recently with a girl and found it hard to steer conversation or make an emotional impact. I though I entered the date on a good frame because of previously sexualising and her qualifying herself on text prior to the date. However, on the date itself, it was basically her telling me lots of long stories without much emotional depth. It was half an hour in before I could even suggest getting our first drink.

At the end of the date, I tried to bring her back to mine anyway but she made up an excuse, said another time. The next day she texted me typical didn't make a connection text.

I can identify lots of areas I could have done better on the date, but the major one is that I couldn't make any emotional impact on her. I just didn't know how to because I would have to interrupt her stories. I could feel how dry the conversation was but didn't have the guts or knowledge to do anything about it.

As I've had this happen a few times, there must be something I'm doing wrong when a girl is very chatty. I want to have the ability to attract girls even if I'm not attracted to them and in theory it should be easier.

Any advice on how to maintain control of conversation and naturally lead to topics that can make a bigger emotional impact?

[Borges]

I'm not a great conversationalist, so I try to avoid very long conversations in dates. If I don't make a move in 1-2h (either by physically escalating or by inviting them to my place), it's either because I'm not interested or because I'm convinced they're not interested. In which case I try to wrap things up.

Now as for the move itself, I don't really wait for a magic moment, nor do I make a lot of effort in setting one up. Obviously I wait for a convenient moment, but if one never comes up, I just make a move anyway. I've interrupted girls mid-conversation with a kiss, and it worked.

So if I were in your shoes I'd try to be more assertive (go ahead and interrupt them if you have something to share) and bolder (escalate). But that's the advice from a guy who usually doesn't talk much. I do wish I was more of a smooth talker.

[Batman_]

(04-04-2019 12:01 PM)Super Average Man Wrote:  

I'm not a great conversationalist, so I try to avoid very long conversations in dates. If I don't make a move in 1-2h (either by physically escalating or by inviting them to my place), it's either because I'm not interested or because I'm convinced they're not interested. In which case I try to wrap things up.

Now as for the move itself, I don't really wait for a magic moment, nor do I make a lot of effort in setting one up. Obviously I wait for a convenient moment, but if one never comes up, I just make a move anyway. I've interrupted girls mid-conversation with a kiss, and it worked.

So if I were in your shoes I'd try to be more assertive (go ahead and interrupt them if you have something to share) and bolder (escalate). But that's the advice from a guy who usually doesn't talk much. I do wish I was more of a smooth talker.

I agree with this and I have the same problem. There are a lot of topics I really just don't care about, sometimes with my friends even I may remain silent for long periods unless we get onto a subject that piques my interest. Women suck at telling stories and conversation with them usually bores me to tears.

I usually either try to get their emotions stirred up in some way or another. Add a lot of randomness, interrupting, and sometimes i'll even be flat out rude. I also usually try not spend too much time at the first date location either.

At the end of the day though, if you don't even enjoy having a conversation with the girl, then you should just cut the date short and stop wasting your time. Even if you fuck them you'll probably hate spending time with them so much that you won't want to see them again.

In my experience, if I naturally have good conversation/ chemistry with a girl without much effort, it almost always leads to sex. I talked to one of my friends about this recently and he suggested that if you're not enjoying the date you should just leave. I have had a problem with this before in feeling like I invested too much to just cut it short, but I think it's good advice and i'll definitely start doing it.

[456]

Next time try to use her material and interrupt with a very wild re-frame / question / comment / joke, that keeps the subject matter still in "her land", but basically uses her stories as a theatre for your wit.

A few times of that, and she might start asking you stuff and segueing into your turn.

Also once you get farther along with a girl like that, the Move is always "interrupt them with a move while they are blabbing"... (once you've already crossed that boundary). So if she's back at yours, and you are trying to get physical but she's talking, etc... the slow Shhh while looking at her, or put your finger to her lips... bam...

Overall though it's an annoying trait for them to be too one-sided in conversation.

[RatInTheWoods]

Sometimes a blabber mouth woman is just really nervous - just lean in and kiss her and take over the conversation, steering it into comfort building with lots of eye contact.

Sometimes women go on dates to listen to the sound of their own voice and for validation - bail out of these if she clearly isn't interested. These test your patience and you have to calculate bang for buck.

Some women need "an emotional connection" through hours of inane babble before they turn into good girlfriends - These test your patience and you have to calculate bang for buck.

Gotta love dating and women, they be like a 'box' of chocolates....

[coffeedrinker]

(04-04-2019 12:01 PM)Super Average Man Wrote:  

I'm not a great conversationalist, so I try to avoid very long conversations in dates. If I don't make a move in 1-2h (either by physically escalating or by inviting them to my place), it's either because I'm not interested or because I'm convinced they're not interested. In which case I try to wrap things up.

Now as for the move itself, I don't really wait for a magic moment, nor do I make a lot of effort in setting one up. Obviously I wait for a convenient moment, but if one never comes up, I just make a move anyway. I've interrupted girls mid-conversation with a kiss, and it worked.

So if I were in your shoes I'd try to be more assertive (go ahead and interrupt them if you have something to share) and bolder (escalate). But that's the advice from a guy who usually doesn't talk much. I do wish I was more of a smooth talker.

I've never done a kiss while still in the bar on a first date. Always have waited till they either come back to mine or sometimes to a secluded park. Will give it a try next time a similar situation happens. Worst case I end a date that would likely have been a waste of time early.

As for conversationalist, I find the convos go best for me when I lead the topics and she does slightly more talking then me. If she's the one asking questions or talks too much, I lose my frame and become a bad listener due to getting bored.

(04-04-2019 12:21 PM)Batman_ Wrote:  

I agree with this and I have the same problem. There are a lot of topics I really just don't care about, sometimes with my friends even I may remain silent for long periods unless we get onto a subject that piques my interest. Women suck at telling stories and conversation with them usually bores me to tears.

I usually either try to get their emotions stirred up in some way or another. Add a lot of randomness, interrupting, and sometimes i'll even be flat out rude. I also usually try not spend too much time at the first date location either.

At the end of the day though, if you don't even enjoy having a conversation with the girl, then you should just cut the date short and stop wasting your time. Even if you fuck them you'll probably hate spending time with them so much that you won't want to see them again.

In my experience, if I naturally have good conversation/ chemistry with a girl without much effort, it almost always leads to sex. I talked to one of my friends about this recently and he suggested that if you're not enjoying the date you should just leave. I have had a problem with this before in feeling like I invested too much to just cut it short, but I think it's good advice and i'll definitely start doing it.

I struggle with this mentally as well. I used to think that having common interests and a decent conversation was enough for me to be attracted to a girl as long as she wasn't ugly. Now I find that I'm a lot more superficial and picky and it can make me me feel guilty. For example, I would have never imagined that I wished the girl I went on a date with had put make up on. She was ok looking but could probably make herself so much more attractive without going crazy.

Also find that whenever the conversation is on topics that do have an emotional impact, it can change my view on a girl. Had a date with a girl where the convo was fun but light and didn't really feel that "instant connection" Then I noticed she had a tattoo that was actually symbolic for something important in her life and we started talking about some deeper topics and my perspective of her changed for the better.

(04-04-2019 01:26 PM)456 Wrote:  

Next time try to use her material and interrupt with a very wild re-frame / question / comment / joke, that keeps the subject matter still in "her land", but basically uses her stories as a theatre for your wit.

A few times of that, and she might start asking you stuff and segueing into your turn.

Also once you get farther along with a girl like that, the Move is always "interrupt them with a move while they are blabbing"... (once you've already crossed that boundary). So if she's back at yours, and you are trying to get physical but she's talking, etc... the slow Shhh while looking at her, or put your finger to her lips... bam...

Overall though it's an annoying trait for them to be too one-sided in conversation.

I did interrupt quite a few times with passing jokes and comments but it felt like she would laugh and then continue on her story. Once I made a long interruption bringing something sexual and she completely downplayed it and continued on. It's a bit of a contraversial thing I sometimes say to see their reactions and it was the first time where I didn't get any reaction at all.

(04-04-2019 03:12 PM)RatInTheWoods Wrote:  

Sometimes a blabber mouth woman is just really nervous - just lean in and kiss her and take over the conversation, steering it into comfort building with lots of eye contact.

Sometimes women go on dates to listen to the sound of their own voice and for validation - bail out of these if she clearly isn't interested. These test your patience and you have to calculate bang for buck.

Some women need "an emotional connection" through hours of inane babble before they turn into good girlfriends - These test your patience and you have to calculate bang for buck.

Gotta love dating and women, they be like a 'box' of chocolates....

I think you are right that she was nervous and a kiss early on may have worked well. Will definitely try this next time. Go bold or go home.

[Hombre de hielo]

Here in Brazil, in the lower social classes, ugly teenage men get to date pretty teenage women through 'chatting'!

Honestly, I do not know how these ugly teenage men can get horny for a woman that requires intense conversation from him.

[Er Miqué]

(04-05-2019 05:29 PM)Hombre de hielo Wrote:  

Here in Brazil, in the lower social classes, ugly teenage men get to date pretty teenage women through 'chatting'!

In Colombia and Venezuela too, damm.

(04-05-2019 05:29 PM)Hombre de hielo Wrote:  

Honestly, I do not know how these ugly teenage men can get horny for a woman that requires intense conversation from him.

Maybe they don't mind at all talking; if they can't get laid in any other way then you think they mind? Nevertheless "chatting" is something whose domination is an advantage in certain cases; generally knowing how to keep talking with people for a long time is something useful. Just saying.

Chatty women are easily handled with a relaxed "shhh" with a finger on their lips when they start to get annoying: no more. Anyways, no man should tolerate it when a woman gets way too annoying.

[RatInTheWoods]

I've got a mate who loves talking to hours with women he hasn't banged yet.

It just meets his social or romantic needs, like a woman. Fucked it I understand it.

I see him hours on the phone, chatting to them about shit, no hope of banging them.

Some dudes are into it.

[Hypno]

Usually when a woman gets to talk about herself it makes her feel bonded to you. But you need to listen actively, kino, interrupt, ask open ended questions.

Another trick is to do a triangle. Stare intently at her right eye for 2 seconds, then her left eye, then her lips for a little longer. Keep doing this and she will want to kiss you

[Hypno]

I slept on it and have a few more thoughts.

Its the man's job to lead the interaction. That includes the venue, a bounce, what you are eating or drinking, the topic of conversation. Ultimately, you failed to control the interraction and your thread title implies that you want to place blame elsewhere.

This girl was talking and enjoying herself, that is a lot more to work with than a girl who is boring, not into you, doesn't talk. Yes, her behavior was rude, but she is too unsophisticated to realize it. Think of women as children who need to be guided and led, and you will have more successful interactions.

If she is droning on, interreupt her. Excuse me, can I ask you a very important question. If you could travel anywhere in the world, cost was no object, where would you go?

then ask the same question about the U.S., then about your city, keep boiling it down to things that are adventurous but also practical. Maybe going for a hike at a nearby park, a weekend trip to a hotel, banging on the roof of a building, maybe something 50 shades of grey. You never hear her interests or desires unless you steer the conversation in those directions.

Kino - brush the hair out of her face, stroke the back of her neck, place your hand on her thigh - done right helps her feel safe and lets her show herself to you. Also, everytime she reciprocates with the kino, its an invite to escalate slightly. Wait a moment, don't act like Pavov's dog, but read it for the signal that it is. The more you escalate, the more she will want to kiss you somewhere private, like your house.

When I meet dates out, I like to meet at a restaurant. I get a big booth and sit on the same side as her. Usually just order drinks, sometimes an app. The nearest restauant to me is a mexican place so they bring free chips. They do a tableside guacamole production for 8 or 9 bucks. Feels like a splurge. Also, the booth offers more privacy for my wandering hands. Its much more diffucult to kino when you are propped up on a bar stool - some women will feel like everyone is looking at them.

[coffeedrinker]

(04-07-2019 09:02 AM)Hypno Wrote:  

I slept on it and have a few more thoughts.

Its the man's job to lead the interaction. That includes the venue, a bounce, what you are eating or drinking, the topic of conversation. Ultimately, you failed to control the interraction and your thread title implies that you want to place blame elsewhere.

This girl was talking and enjoying herself, that is a lot more to work with than a girl who is boring, not into you, doesn't talk. Yes, her behavior was rude, but she is too unsophisticated to realize it. Think of women as children who need to be guided and led, and you will have more successful interactions.

If she is droning on, interreupt her. Excuse me, can I ask you a very important question. If you could travel anywhere in the world, cost was no object, where would you go?

then ask the same question about the U.S., then about your city, keep boiling it down to things that are adventurous but also practical. Maybe going for a hike at a nearby park, a weekend trip to a hotel, banging on the roof of a building, maybe something 50 shades of grey. You never hear her interests or desires unless you steer the conversation in those directions.

Kino - brush the hair out of her face, stroke the back of her neck, place your hand on her thigh - done right helps her feel safe and lets her show herself to you. Also, everytime she reciprocates with the kino, its an invite to escalate slightly. Wait a moment, don't act like Pavov's dog, but read it for the signal that it is. The more you escalate, the more she will want to kiss you somewhere private, like your house.

When I meet dates out, I like to meet at a restaurant. I get a big booth and sit on the same side as her. Usually just order drinks, sometimes an app. The nearest restauant to me is a mexican place so they bring free chips. They do a tableside guacamole production for 8 or 9 bucks. Feels like a splurge. Also, the booth offers more privacy for my wandering hands. Its much more diffucult to kino when you are propped up on a bar stool - some women will feel like everyone is looking at them.

I completely agree the fault was with me and appreciate your advice.

Having thought about it more myself with the advice from everyone, I figured my main learning points for the future:

1) Take much bolder action to interrupt and lead conversation to topics that build better emotional connection.

2) Escalate kino further than usual if necessary, better to get burned out quickly then to bleed dry


Part of the reason why I didn't do those things is because I still have this limiting belief/guilt that she had the relationship girl vibe and I would be leading her on as I wasn't that attracted to her. I think what I'll do in such cases is to be honest up front and say I'm not looking for anything serious right now. While I don't have to do it, I think it will actually help me by freeing me to be bolder in escalating.

[Borges]

(04-07-2019 12:10 PM)coffeedrinker Wrote:  

Part of the reason why I didn't do those things is because I still have this limiting belief/guilt that she had the relationship girl vibe and I would be leading her on as I wasn't that attracted to her. I think what I'll do in such cases is to be honest up front and say I'm not looking for anything serious right now. While I don't have to do it, I think it will actually help me by freeing me to be bolder in escalating.

Most of them are looking for relationships, even the ones who have the DTF vibe. It's rare to run into a chick who sincerely just wants to bang. I've banged bona fide sluts who sent me some clingy messages afterwards and were clearly interested in taking things further.

Getting them horny and banging them in the first date is not leading them on unless you flat out lie about your intentions. If you tell the girl you're looking for a girlfriend, imply she's a prospect, then pump and dump her, yeah, that's leading her on. But if the subject never comes up or if you're vague about it, it's fair game. Girls aren't dumb, they know what we're after.

[Hypno]

With experience, you'll come up with a set of questions that dove tails into things where you can DHV, where you can display your value. I'm well traveled so that is a good one for me, it also dovetails with women saying they are adventurous. There is a chapter in Cialdinia about the consistency principle. If you get a woman to say she is adventurous, later she won't want to contraditct herself. So you might be talking about exploriing new cuisines, and she says she is adventurous, and then when you say lets come back to my house and watch this cool documentary on netflix, when she balks say, I thought you were adventurous? Its not guaranteed to work, but it tends to work because her brain has to resolve the contradiction. She will self rationalize, yes, I'm adventurous, and its only netflix.

[coffeedrinker]

(04-07-2019 12:24 PM)Borges Wrote:  

Most of them are looking for relationships, even the ones who have the DTF vibe. It's rare to run into a chick who sincerely just wants to bang. I've banged bona fide sluts who sent me some clingy messages afterwards and were clearly interested in taking things further.

Getting them horny and banging them in the first date is not leading them on unless you flat out lie about your intentions. If you tell the girl you're looking for a girlfriend, imply she's a prospect, then pump and dump her, yeah, that's leading her on. But if the subject never comes up or if you're vague about it, it's fair game. Girls aren't dumb, they know what we're after.

I've also experienced it with few girls I've managed to get a FWB going. They say something that could imply moving towards relationship. I take a few seconds to answer / get confused and not know what to say, they pick up on it and clarify "oh not in that way" but it seemed like a test to see my reaction.

However, I'm still transitioning from the hollywood fairytale mindset and even clear evidence is giving me trouble finding a set of beliefs/boundaries that will keep me happy and sane lol.

(04-08-2019 05:37 AM)Hypno Wrote:  

With experience, you'll come up with a set of questions that dove tails into things where you can DHV, where you can display your value. I'm well traveled so that is a good one for me, it also dovetails with women saying they are adventurous. There is a chapter in Cialdinia about the consistency principle. If you get a woman to say she is adventurous, later she won't want to contraditct herself. So you might be talking about exploriing new cuisines, and she says she is adventurous, and then when you say lets come back to my house and watch this cool documentary on netflix, when she balks say, I thought you were adventurous? Its not guaranteed to work, but it tends to work because her brain has to resolve the contradiction. She will self rationalize, yes, I'm adventurous, and its only netflix.

That adventuruous consistency is gold and something I'll definitely use in the future. It's one of my usual questions anyway as I like to talk about extreme sports but never though of using it in that way.

If I do manage to lead the convo, I have a group of topics I'm both interested in and also have experiences to show value. If I can go through a couple of the topics thoroughly, dates tend to go well. Will try to be extra bold next few dates and see results.

[Hombre de hielo]

A question for you who are from '1st world' countries... ugly and poor men (when I say poor, I say when the man does not give any money to the woman) get acceptance of beautiful women?

[Feldeinsamkeit]

(04-06-2019 05:51 PM)RatInTheWoods Wrote:  

I've got a mate who loves talking to hours with women he hasn't banged yet.

It just meets his social or romantic needs, like a woman. Fucked it I understand it.

I see him hours on the phone, chatting to them about shit, no hope of banging them.

Some dudes are into it.

It's called getting played for your attention. I've been guilty of it myself in the past. You need to calculate the probability of the bang mid-way through the date. If, e.g., you physically escalate and she recoils but still wants to continue the conversation, you've probably got a timewaster on your hands.

[ksbms]

(05-04-2019 12:45 AM)Feldeinsamkeit Wrote:  

(04-06-2019 05:51 PM)RatInTheWoods Wrote:  

I've got a mate who loves talking to hours with women he hasn't banged yet.

It just meets his social or romantic needs, like a woman. Fucked it I understand it.

I see him hours on the phone, chatting to them about shit, no hope of banging them.

Some dudes are into it.

It's called getting played for your attention. I've been guilty of it myself in the past. You need to calculate the probability of the bang mid-way through the date. If, e.g., you physically escalate and she recoils but still wants to continue the conversation, you've probably got a timewaster on your hands.

Quite likely. Lastly, once all escalation is rebuffed, you can give them the Talk (as per Krauser, not my invention). You break the fourth wall (there's nothing to lose anymore) and put them (pun unintended) against the wall telling them this is a date and you expect her to reciprocate and that you don't accept her wishy-washy behaviour, basically scolding her like a child procuring for its enjoyment a tantrum. Either she'll fall in line (I reckon it happens almost never and you can rescue the set by playing this ultimatum game of super dominance), or the cards get folded immediately, so you can save time and frustration and leave the venue and enjoy the rest of the day.