[christpuncher]

Well, I'm doing it. Early 30s, a cool 1/2 mil in the bank, good job, health not great, and I want kids before I'm too old.

Haven't seen a proper prenup thread in the search results, just a few odd threads about celebrities and "NEVER GET MARRIED" threads. If we have a good discussion about it already though can someone link me?

It seem like the effectiveness of a Prenup as a legal document is only so-so. Good for protecting assets from before the marriage (1/2 mil) and good for inheritances (won't be much, half a house probably). But for any wealth accumulated during marriage, i.e., the majority, it's unclear to me whether the prenup has any effect of maintaining a separation of money, or can have any influence on the division of the matrimonial home.

But my whole point of the prenup isn't so much to ruthlessly protect assets, it's so that she knows up front that I am not a fool or a doormat, a sucker for the game of modern marriage, and to protect against divorce even happening in the first place because she won't dare to. I don't think it will happen, she seems solid, but you never know what crazy ideas might pop into her head when I'm 45 with 3 young kids and getting ready to wind down a career for early retirement (my plan).

The point I want to convey to her, is that a prenup helps make our marriage stronger, turns it into a real classical marriage, where we are both bound together through anything, and just because life gets hard, doesn't mean we get to walk away from it. That it's not about the money, it's about strengthening the real, deep commitment to each other.

Obviously the word "pre-nup" is toxic. I think I'd rather name it as a "Marriage contract for dealing with inheritances and stuff". Unfortunately she definitely knows my parents aren't rich or have any secret millions. Her parents are even poorer than mine. So that option of "my dad insists" isn't viable (thanks dad).

I am stuck for coming up with more plausible sounding reasons for which a prenup is a good idea for her, for "us", and that it's not just "me being selfish", to get her on board, sign it, and not be deeply resentful about it.

[Windom Earle]

It’s disturbing that you’d have $500k sitting in a bank account (if that is the case) rather than investing it in an appropriately diversified portfolio.

I’d work on that first.

[christpuncher]

It's not. "In the bank" is a figure of speech. And even if it was, no, I'd not work on that first, and it's not that disturbing. Prenup and successful marriage is far more important than asset allocation of $500k, obviously.

Thanks for the off-topic concern though

[TorontoRocks]

You should read this book before you decide to get married:
https://www.amazon.ca/Taken-Into-Custody...to+custody

Since you are Canadian, read this one as well:
https://www.amazon.ca/Winner-Take-All-Ex...1608443809

[Montrose]

My wife didn’t want to sign a prenup. I said you sign or marriage is off. She signed. Our assets are now completely separated. We have lived quite happily together for 20 years.

If she’s not willing to sign a paper to have the privilege of marrying you, find another girl.

[Montrose]

A prenup definitely strengthens a marriage, because it reduce the incentive for the wife to divorce, and, as we know, most divorces are initiated by women. I have a friend who (contrary to my entreaties) didn’t not sign a prenup because he was afraid of his wife. She left him after 4 years, a few months after the birth of their second child, with a lot of his money.

[Bacchus]

Make sure she has plenty of time to think it over and she can have her own lawyer review the agreement so that you can actually enforce it. You do not want your agreement thrown out in a divorce because the judge says she signed under duress.

The worst case being you hand her an agreement on the morning of the wedding and say "Sign or the wedding is off." That's duress every time. You'll still have to tell her sign or you're not getting married, but if you give her a year to 6 months to process this, then duress isn't a factor.

But also you may need to hire a lawyer to represent her (separate from the one you hired to write the agreement) who can explain what's in it to her. That way, she can't say that she "didn't understand what was in it" to invalidate the agreement. Remember, family courts side with the woman by default, so you'll need to have your shit together to emerge from there with a win.

Basically, having a prenup isn't enough. You need a prenup that you will be able to enforce in the case of a divorce.

One final point is that while a prenup can waive alimony and divide property, it cannot waive child support payments. So if you have three kids, and you have a high income, she'll receive substantial child support so that the kids can maintain their lifestyle after the divorce. Those child support payments could potentially last through college.

[RoastBeefCurtains4Me]

This is the key. The prenup is no good if signed under duress, and signing just before the wedding will be considered duress. You have to have it signed at least six months before the wedding, and she has to have her lawyer review it.

Also, I would keep your previous assets completely isolated during the wedding, and then build up some decent marital assets that she can still split in case of a divorce. If you mingle your assets, or if you keep them separate and there are no marital assets in the case of a divorce, the judge will void the prenup.

(01-06-2019 10:57 AM)Bacchus Wrote:  

Make sure she has plenty of time to think it over and she can have her own lawyer review the agreement so that you can actually enforce it. You do not want your agreement thrown out in a divorce because the judge says she signed under duress.

The worst case being you hand her an agreement on the morning of the wedding and say "Sign or the wedding is off." That's duress every time. You'll still have to tell her sign or you're not getting married, but if you give her a year to 6 months to process this, then duress isn't a factor.

But also you may need to hire a lawyer to represent her (separate from the one you hired to write the agreement) who can explain what's in it to her. That way, she can't say that she "didn't understand what was in it" to invalidate the agreement. Remember, family courts side with the woman by default, so you'll need to have your shit together to emerge from there with a win.

Basically, having a prenup isn't enough. You need a prenup that you will be able to enforce in the case of a divorce.

One final point is that while a prenup can waive alimony and divide property, it cannot waive child support payments. So if you have three kids, and you have a high income, she'll receive substantial child support so that the kids can maintain their lifestyle after the divorce. Those child support payments could potentially last through college.

[NoMoreTO]

My take is to bring it up very early, when marriage is only a topic of conversation and not something that you are on the path to. I get the feeling you are too late for that.

I agree totally with your classic marriage view. I wouldn't trust a woman who wouldn't sign a pre nup, its only fair.

My advice would be to hold your ground, it is actually deal breaker for me.

[joost]

You should put the blame on the lawyer!

- Look honey, there's some nice investments I want to make but the (you don't say YOUR) lawyer says you need to sign up this stuff. This is kinda insurance. Creditors don't want to risk me moving all the assets to your name ...

Like mentioned above, make her sign way before you start talking about marriage.

[christpuncher]

Thanks guys! Given me lots to think about. Yes, it's too late for the pre-proposal talk... The proposal is in, wedding planning stage is preliminarily started right now.

I am trying to understand how the whole process of drafting the prenup might best work and be effective, easy, and least traumatizing. I think the gold standard, as above by Bacchus, would be that I have a lawyer draft it, and she have a completely separate lawyer (paid by her) review it and agree, then we sign at a sit-down session with both lawyers together? That sounds like a lot of extra work and money though. It's easy to just write about it.

I'm wondering if soliciting a single lawyer, on behalf of "us", drafting the document as per "our" direction, and then a sit down with that one lawyer who explains the document to both (and witnesses) is sufficient.

I am not an old multi-millionaire looking to ruthlessly protect all assets from a THOT wife. I just want to have, with the minimal of drama and cost, a document that modestly protects my interests from a vastly unfair divorce, and sends a firm message to the would-be wife that I am not going to be taken advantage of and walked all over for the rest of our lives. That I won't suffer 40 years of half-serious jokes about how she can "always leave and take everything" (I don't know how many fucking women I know that say or imply this kind of BS from time-to-time. Nearly 100%).

Specifically about prenup content, (probably a question for the lawyer) I don't know how to handle a pension. I have a large DB pension coming my way if I keep working here for my career, and I don't wanna be one of those poor bastards I see at work who are now stuck there till 65 instead of 55 because they got divorced at 50 and the wife gets half the pension...

Regarding the conversation, I'll have to come back with a script.. But right now she does not know that I have 1/2 Mil, she thinks it's about 200k probably, I've been super vague. I don't know how/when is the best time to reveal this to her and if it should be a talking point for the prenup conversation or not. Seems to be more of a crass "me wanting to keep my money" talking point instead of a "wanting to strengthen the marriage" conversation, if she knows about all the money. She's not broke either, about 100k, but obviously I have and always will have more, especially if/when she stops working for the kids. But I also don't want to keep this secret any longer. It's grating on me, she wants to know, and as a husband-wife pair I think she should know. I also am thinking I should reveal this number pre-marriage, so I can see how she reacts, if she all of a sudden wants to get super spendy on the wedding...Better fucking not, or I won't know what to do.

[not_dead_yet]

(01-06-2019 12:12 PM)christpuncher Wrote:  

I am trying to understand how the whole process of drafting the prenup might best work and be effective, easy, and least traumatizing. I think the gold standard, as above by Bacchus, would be that I have a lawyer draft it, and she have a completely separate lawyer (paid by her) review it and agree, then we sign at a sit-down session with both lawyers together? That sounds like a lot of extra work and money though. It's easy to just write about it.

I'm wondering if soliciting a single lawyer, on behalf of "us", drafting the document as per "our" direction, and then a sit down with that one lawyer who explains the document to both (and witnesses) is sufficient.

Claims to have half million in assets; solicits free legal advice from ppl on the Internet; ignores the advice bc/doesn't want to spend a few k to comply with the law.

No offense, but you deserve what you get.

[Hypno]

I can't speak to Canadian law, but in the U.S. a court in most states will recognize your premarital assets and inheritances and gifts during the marriage as your separate estate, as long as you take steps not to comingle them with marital assets. In other words, in many cases you don't even need a prenup. If in doubt, you could also put them in a separate trust.

The far bigger issue for most men is over the life of the marriage you accumulate assets and earning power. You might also have children. Avoiding an obligation for alimony and access to your children is a more important objective of a prenup. The law varies considerably from state to state but with respect to those issues there is less certainty that it will be enforced.

The prenups you hear about being enforced are by billionaries where they provide something like if you stay with me for x years, you get $1 million, X+y years you get $2 million, etc. There is an ample safety net for the divorced spouse. Something like that is not so feasible for most men, so your children, earnings during the marriage, and future earning power are at risk because you chose to get married. If your prenup does not provide a safety net like that, there is a much greater risk that the assets and earning power and children you acquire during the marriage will be at risk.

Before I married, I took a look at Harry Browne's book, How I Found Freedom in an Unfree World. He suggests alternatives to marriage and other government institutions that I found impractical. While they haven't gotten any more convenient, having been married and divorce raped now I have greater admiration for his ideas. I strongly encourage you to check them out. Also, if you have set a date for your wedding, tell your bride you need to postpone. The wedding date, the ceremony, and guests are a huge pressure that force you to make stupid decisions.

[Waqqle]

Tell her point blank in a calm and unemotional way that you will not get married without a prenup. That is one of your non-negotiables. If she does not think that is acceptable, then you will find someone else who does. No woman in the West is truly oblivious at this point to what the current legal system is and a woman who won't sign a prenup does not have your well-being and best interests at heart. A woman who is not concerned with your interests and well-being is not someone you want to be married to.

[joost]

If she has $100k it means she has a job (so to not spend all that savings). So... It means she can take care of herself. She doesn't need your money nor safety if you divorce her in the future. You better have a decent prenup.

And do not talk about how much you make to any women. Specially your future wife.

[lunchmoney]

(01-06-2019 02:04 PM)joost Wrote:  

And do not talk about how much you make to any women. Specially your future wife.

This is for anyone else who comes in this thread as a friendly reminder.

[christpuncher]

(01-06-2019 12:21 PM)not_dead_yet Wrote:  

(01-06-2019 12:12 PM)christpuncher Wrote:  

I am trying to understand how the whole process of drafting the prenup might best work and be effective, easy, and least traumatizing. I think the gold standard, as above by Bacchus, would be that I have a lawyer draft it, and she have a completely separate lawyer (paid by her) review it and agree, then we sign at a sit-down session with both lawyers together? That sounds like a lot of extra work and money though. It's easy to just write about it.

I'm wondering if soliciting a single lawyer, on behalf of "us", drafting the document as per "our" direction, and then a sit down with that one lawyer who explains the document to both (and witnesses) is sufficient.

Claims to have half million in assets; solicits free legal advice from ppl on the Internet; ignores the advice bc/doesn't want to spend a few k to comply with the law.

No offense, but you deserve what you get.

haha no worries dude, we can't all be idiots on the internet who think they're geniuses by dropping witty insult memes on strangers to make themselves feel more adequate. Thanks for your thoughtful input.
I think throwing around subjects like 1/2 million dollars causes some people to short circuit. I'm just trying to present the situation accurately. I acknowledge it's a good chunk of money, that I've worked hard for, but it will also only be a fraction of my family net worth in the no-too-distant future (hopefully), so I gotta keep the big picture in perspective. 20-somethings just starting out, still in student debt, might not get it yet.

Hopefully I didn't sound like I was "ignoring the advice" of Bacchus, I'm just trying to feel out the differences of these scenarios really. What is the situation where a legitimate document prepared, explained, documented and signed by a lawyer is inadequate, but the same document prepared and witnessed by two different lawyers with extra, expensive meetings in necessary?

I get the theoretical "independent council" aspect, but would that not require some legitimate claim in divorce court (most divorces don't ever make it to court, no?) that the original document maker/lawyer was somehow acting in a non-professional manner that was biased towards the man, to the detriment of the woman? Maybe I'm missing a key point, but I am not a billionaire here, and would like to get this done with minimal fuss, time and expense.

(01-06-2019 01:00 PM)Hypno Wrote:  

I can't speak to Canadian law, but in the U.S. a court in most states will recognize your premarital assets and inheritances and gifts during the marriage as your separate estate, as long as you take steps not to comingle them with marital assets. In other words, in many cases you don't even need a prenup. If in doubt, you could also put them in a separate trust.

The far bigger issue for most men is over the life of the marriage you accumulate assets and earning power. You might also have children. Avoiding an obligation for alimony and access to your children is a more important objective of a prenup. The law varies considerably from state to state but with respect to those issues there is less certainty that it will be enforced.

The prenups you hear about being enforced are by billionaries where they provide something like if you stay with me for x years, you get $1 million, X+y years you get $2 million, etc. There is an ample safety net for the divorced spouse. Something like that is not so feasible for most men, so your children, earnings during the marriage, and future earning power are at risk because you chose to get married. If your prenup does not provide a safety net like that, there is a much greater risk that the assets and earning power and children you acquire during the marriage will be at risk.

Before I married, I took a look at Harry Browne's book, How I Found Freedom in an Unfree World. He suggests alternatives to marriage and other government institutions that I found impractical. While they haven't gotten any more convenient, having been married and divorce raped now I have greater admiration for his ideas. I strongly encourage you to check them out. Also, if you have set a date for your wedding, tell your bride you need to postpone. The wedding date, the ceremony, and guests are a huge pressure that force you to make stupid decisions.

Thanks Hypno,

This is my understanding as well, and that really, a prenup doesn't do all that much to protect accumulated assets during the marriage, regardless of what kind of document you have. It can only work to prevent egregious claims to alimony, and to ensure inheritances and premarital assets are out of the picture, despite any co-mingling. There is no way to protect your marital home from being divided, I'm not sure about pension accounts and about investment money in my name only. I'm looking to protect a majority portion of those things.

Also, for tax reduction purposes, it makes sense for me to bear the brunt of family expenses, and for her to increase savings and investments in her name. I'll tread into this lightly at the beginning, looking further into how best to set up these accounts, because I get the sense it's exposing me even more... But I'm wondering if the prenup could handle such things as well, to avoid any "kept woman" argument. I.e. I paid for everything, she looks after the kids and works here and there - so fuck you dude you keep paying forever and she keeps all the money in her accounts that you allowed her to accumulate. Bad deal...

As far as alternative arrangements go, sure it could work, but someone has to get married and have 3 kids and try to raise the next generation, don't they? I guess it's conceivable that this could work "just as well" without a marriage, but that's really jettisoning the whole institution from our culture, which I don't want to be responsible for doing. I just have to accept that this is a risky/unfair era in which to be a man, do my best to minimize the risks I am exposed to directly by the legal system (with a prenup), while still working hard to preserve our culture, raise as many good quality kids to adulthood as I can, and hopefully their lives and culture in the future will be better as a result of my actions. Is that beta?

Still thinking about my "pre-nup talk" script, will have to post it here for edits, I really should get this over with this week, as it's clear the longer I wait the worse it'll get...

[Sherman]

I had a prenup and it was upheld, but she also didn't contest it. There are two disadvantages: 1) it destroys the whole psychology of marriage, of you being a union and not two separate people, it really has a psychological effect that she now sees most things as yours, and 2) in order for it to be effective you have to disclose all of your finances to her up front so she knows what she is not getting. If you do a prenup, it would be helpful to have a diplomatic lawyer and come up with an arrangement that is fair, mutually negotiated, and both people are happy with it and think it is fair. I personally would explore other alternatives, like putting savings in a form that can't be reached. Also, the state laws have a big effect and you need to carefully study them. In many states, if you are married a few years and have no children, she doesn't have any right to your pre-marriage assets. You may be better off by just carefully documenting everything you own before marriage, and never commingling pre-marital funds.

[[email protected]]

She has to get her own lawyer and sign independently or it'll get thrown out for sure. If she just signed a legal document that is basically "signed under duress".

[Kona]

Tell her you got hidden assets in the Cayman Island that you can't touch. Tell her its ten million dollars.

Then, tell her that so as to not complicate the transfer of those assets to her in the event of your death, your team of attorneys has advised you to get a prenup. Tell her it's for her own good. Tell her to just keep her mouth shut and sign the thing so as not to throw up any red flags. Bitches are stupid.

In ten years or so, tell her the market crashed and you lost your money. Just live a lie dude. Everybody does it.

Aloha!

[RatInTheWoods]

I have researched this and looked into it very deeply after my sever divorce rape V1.0

In Australia THERE IS NO EFFECTIVE WAY to keep the courts off your cash in a marriage situation.

prenups (or binding financial arrangements as they are called here) can and will be "set aside" in the courts on the choice from a large selection of excuses.

Its just too much of a cash cow for the lawyers and system to pass up, raping men for resources is a multi billion dollar industry, they are not going to let that get shut down with a bit of paper.

Do your research carefully for your jurisdiction. Read up on the internet, previous cases, cases where prenups got thrown out etc. I bet it's the same in Canada.
Then go see a specialist legal advice.

I don't think you can separate you love life from your bank account in western nations.

It doesn't help that you are looking to set all this up while engaged, as the courts can say at the time it was set up you BOTH had the cash and assets etc etc

Do let us know what you discover

[[email protected]]

Also live in Australia for work.

Every Australian with money keeps telling me 'just set up a trust bro' but this looks like you can't touch your own money for a long time.

Best to move your money offshore, don't think it'll matter if it's money you had prior to divorce but I'd still still move it offshore or into an investment vehicle offshore that cannot be traced by any forensic accounting and let that 500k build. My way is the masculine way, it doesn't rely on government.

You will ultimately still get raped but my way you have an exit strategy. After living with her for 5-10 years you will have made a lot of money, assets. All the sacrifice you made to save the money will be punished by giving everyone else the fruits of your labor. I personally would quietly siphon off excess into something fungible like bitcoin/gold bought with cash.

In Australia they will still take your super annuation which is like a 401k or Canadian RRSP but you just have to write that off. You can't access it anyway and probably never will be able to in the future.

Marriage is really a total fucking war for a man. If you aren't prepped with a long term plan you will get reked. Nobody is on your side. Be ready at all times for frivorce.

[Higgins]

(01-07-2019 07:20 AM)[email protected] Wrote:  

Also live in Australia for work.

Every Australian with money keeps telling me 'just set up a trust bro' but this looks like you can't touch your own money for a long time.

Best to move your money offshore, don't think it'll matter if it's money you had prior to divorce but I'd still still move it offshore or into an investment vehicle offshore that cannot be traced by any forensic accounting and let that 500k build. My way is the masculine way, it doesn't rely on government.

You can touch it with a trust. Not here to derail this thread so we can continue this chat in PM.

Offshoring is the way to go however, depending on how bad of an example the govt wants to make of you, what is your home country, and your desire to maybe stay in your home country, offshoring may have limited effects.

[MongolianAbroad]

(01-07-2019 08:39 AM)Higgins Wrote:  

(01-07-2019 07:20 AM)[email protected] Wrote:  

Also live in Australia for work.

Every Australian with money keeps telling me 'just set up a trust bro' but this looks like you can't touch your own money for a long time.

Best to move your money offshore, don't think it'll matter if it's money you had prior to divorce but I'd still still move it offshore or into an investment vehicle offshore that cannot be traced by any forensic accounting and let that 500k build. My way is the masculine way, it doesn't rely on government.

You can touch it with a trust. Not here to derail this thread so we can continue this chat in PM.

Offshoring is the way to go however, depending on how bad of an example the govt wants to make of you, what is your home country, and your desire to maybe stay in your home country, offshoring may have limited effects.

Yeah, my buddy that has quite a bit of assets also told me to set up a trust for my assets before marriage.

[Captain Gh]

Man thanks for all you guys in sharing these tips for us future Husbands! And OP... I hate to be negative... but unless your attitude does a 180... You are FUCKED!!! I can smell the stench of fear you got for your wife through my Cell! But it's not to late. Lawyer up & get these Prenup talk underway! She signs or you walk out