[Cold]

Thoughts ?, do you think newbies should be taught to improve their skills with people in general before moving on to game ?, or do they go hand in hand ?

I'm trying to help a friend with game in college, I'd say he's decent at talking to people, getting them to "value" him and what he knows, but drops the ball socially quite frequently e.g not knowing what to say next, and too being logically minded, preferring to discuss rather than appease people. He's a decent looking guy, gets IOIs occasionally and has kissed girls/could get lays via social circle but his inability to just read the atmosphere at times and respond appropriately holds him back quite a bit.

I remember Roosh writing a blog post that stated that Game is basically just having really good social skills and awareness of the environment, should we just fine tune his social awareness before having him learn game, or should we just practice both together ?

[Investment Bro]

Part of being socially aware is being able to recognize what other people in the room want and then putting yourself in the position where it appears that you are the person to give them that.

The first thing I'll tell you is that you won't be able to help your friend with game if you're passing the advice to him. He needs to register for an RVF account and get his ass over here if he is really committed to learning.

The first question I want to ask: what's your friend's strategy for getting bangs? Is he running social circle? Night game? Day game? Social awareness and the degree of it you need to get laid varies on the situation. For example, you can have poor social awareness in nightgame but if you're good at dancing and good looking, it won't matter. Whereas the opposite is true with social circle, if you aren't socially calibrated to the group mood, you will lose out on lays.

I'd say that he should pick which type of game he wants to improve in first. Generally, building overall social skills will get him more mileage in life, but honing a specific type of game will get him more lays. If you can give some examples of poor social calibration/missed lays, I'll be able to give you more specific advice.

[TheMaleBrain]

Bad game trumps No game.
Your friend should approach, fail, learn from his mistakes and repeat.

I use to be "socially aware-less". This is because sometimes you have that ZFG mentality.
Fine tuning means practicing. He should practice being around people and trying to deduce (with your help) what went wrong.

[Waqqle]

General social skills and game skills are part of the same set. Neither is necessarily higher or lower level and they both tie into each other to the point that they become inseparable. The primary difference between general social skills and game is not the skill set itself or the principles that underpin them but rather the objective that you are seeking to achieve by employing them. If you are trying to get what you want out of people in a non-sexual way, then we call it social skills and, if you are trying to get what you want in a sexual/romantic way, we call it game.

I personally never developed either skill set early in life the way that most people do and had to learn both general social skills and game consciously through deliberate study and practice (there is no amount of study that will entirely replace practice and experience). In the process of doing this, I found that the principles which underpin both are essentially the same and the techniques only differ depending on how you modify them to achieve a particular objective.

Awareness of the environment is mostly down to recognizing social behavior patterns and responding appropriately (verbally) is mostly a matter of learning conversation patterns. There is a lot more that goes into these things but that is the foundation. Same thing goes for body language patterns. Pattern recognition and developing the ability to discern which of your own patterns to utilize in a given scenario (based on your analysis of the patterns being deployed by others in said scenario) is the basis of all social and game skill. Once that is established, a gamer can proceed to improvise and craft his own personal style like adding the icing to an already fully-formed cake.

[coffeedrinker]

(12-25-2018 01:00 PM)Waqqle Wrote:  

General social skills and game skills are part of the same set. Neither is necessarily higher or lower level and they both tie into each other to the point that they become inseparable. The primary difference between general social skills and game is not the skill set itself or the principles that underpin them but rather the objective that you are seeking to achieve by employing them. If you are trying to get what you want out of people in a non-sexual way, then we call it social skills and, if you are trying to get what you want in a sexual/romantic way, we call it game.

I personally never developed either skill set early in life the way that most people do and had to learn both general social skills and game consciously through deliberate study and practice (there is no amount of study that will entirely replace practice and experience). In the process of doing this, I found that the principles which underpin both are essentially the same and the techniques only differ depending on how you modify them to achieve a particular objective.

Awareness of the environment is mostly down to recognizing social behavior patterns and responding appropriately (verbally) is mostly a matter of learning conversation patterns. There is a lot more that goes into these things but that is the foundation. Same thing goes for body language patterns. Pattern recognition and developing the ability to discern which of your own patterns to utilize in a given scenario (based on your analysis of the patterns being deployed by others in said scenario) is the basis of all social and game skill. Once that is established, a gamer can proceed to improvise and craft his own personal style like adding the icing to an already fully-formed cake.

Recently I started reading a book about networking called "Never Eat Alone" by Keith Ferrazzi, and the similarities with the strategies for succesful networking and gaming are funny.

e.g.
-Approach as many people as possible and do not be discouraged when people are not receptive as not everyone will be
-Give/show value prior to asking for anything in return
- Be direct and on point with what you want but show vulnerabilities and stay humble if required

[Waqqle]

(12-25-2018 03:25 PM)coffeedrinker Wrote:  

Recently I started reading a book about networking called "Never Eat Alone" by Keith Ferrazzi, and the similarities with the strategies for succesful networking and gaming are funny.

e.g.
-Approach as many people as possible and do not be discouraged when people are not receptive as not everyone will be
-Give/show value prior to asking for anything in return
- Be direct and on point with what you want but show vulnerabilities and stay humble if required

In a number of Asian and other world cultures, it has traditionally been considered weird to eat alone and people might tend to think that there is a problem if you do. It is, rightly in my view, considered by many to be a social ill of modernization.

Why more Koreans are eating alone

[Cold]

Thanks for the responses ! all of them have been pretty helpful.

(12-25-2018 10:42 AM)Investment Bro Wrote:  

Part of being socially aware is being able to recognize what other people in the room want and then putting yourself in the position where it appears that you are the person to give them that.

The first thing I'll tell you is that you won't be able to help your friend with game if you're passing the advice to him. He needs to register for an RVF account and get his ass over here if he is really committed to learning.

The first question I want to ask: what's your friend's strategy for getting bangs? Is he running social circle? Night game? Day game? Social awareness and the degree of it you need to get laid varies on the situation. For example, you can have poor social awareness in nightgame but if you're good at dancing and good looking, it won't matter. Whereas the opposite is true with social circle, if you aren't socially calibrated to the group mood, you will lose out on lays.

I'd say that he should pick which type of game he wants to improve in first. Generally, building overall social skills will get him more mileage in life, but honing a specific type of game will get him more lays. If you can give some examples of poor social calibration/missed lays, I'll be able to give you more specific advice.

Thanks for the response, and I've heard similar things to the part I bolded and I would agree, my friend has heard of Roosh before but relies mostly on the "RSD" youtube videos, which does have some good content, but I find Roosh's view and style of delivery much more suited to my taste. I'll definitely tell him to sign up though.

In order I would say he uses:

1. Day Game, does approaches, starts off with a request, which moves on to talking about the city and dropping bait for the girl to gage the girl's interest. Then number closes, the numbers don't usually convert into dates. No lays yet. An example would be when we were gaming in a mall, the girl became quite tense and serious ( this happens often, slowly) when he was asking about something, which is them mirroring the impression he gives off, but I don't think he notices, its pretty natural to him, so he slips into it, and wonders why he isn't getting the signs that indicate a positive response would come from more forward/direct moves, it might be a defence mechanism to not be caught off guard but I'm not sure, people feed off the energy he gives out which is tense, I and others who have known him a while, don't notice it that much though. It might also be a lack of self confidence, which I've heard others say.

2. Social Circle Game(no real strategy), He's talking to a decent girl right now, claimed they spent time alone, she's pretty comfortable, and consistently breaks touch barrier, he hasn't seen her do this with the other guys, but suspects she might. she has a bf but flirts a lot with others. Another recent incident was when a different girl gave him her number in a class, but he just lacks the social know how to move past long logical banal conversation to setting up a date. no lays. In class I saw the girl giving him IOIs, he notices this at least, but the conversation was kinda dry and poor. He's also not the best at bantering, he can come up with hilarious lines occasionally, but they are usually pre prepared, and not on the fly.

3. Online Game: Tinder, messages, gets number or SC, however no lays.

4.Night Game, again no real strategy, but to drink, approach, gages girls interest, breaks touch barrier with touch on upper arm or lower back, if she's comfortable he'll go on. I've seen him approach, he can act confident, could work on his facial expressions and tone though, but runs out of material, and the girl will stay there with her friends close to our group while he has no idea how to turn that into actions on her part. No lays yet.

(12-25-2018 12:24 PM)TheMaleBrain Wrote:  

Bad game trumps No game.
Your friend should approach, fail, learn from his mistakes and repeat.

I use to be "socially aware-less". This is because sometimes you have that ZFG mentality.
Fine tuning means practicing. He should practice being around people and trying to deduce (with your help) what went wrong.

Thanks I used to have a big ZFG mentality when I was younger and only cared about what I thought was logical/made sense and also close friends/work etc, but now, I've relaxed a bit, I think his issue is just not paying attention, meaning he misses out on a lot, we'll probably focus more on practice/experience this year.

(12-25-2018 01:00 PM)Waqqle Wrote:  

General social skills and game skills are part of the same set. Neither is necessarily higher or lower level and they both tie into each other to the point that they become inseparable. The primary difference between general social skills and game is not the skill set itself or the principles that underpin them but rather the objective that you are seeking to achieve by employing them. If you are trying to get what you want out of people in a non-sexual way, then we call it social skills and, if you are trying to get what you want in a sexual/romantic way, we call it game.

I personally never developed either skill set early in life the way that most people do and had to learn both general social skills and game consciously through deliberate study and practice (there is no amount of study that will entirely replace practice and experience). In the process of doing this, I found that the principles which underpin both are essentially the same and the techniques only differ depending on how you modify them to achieve a particular objective.

Awareness of the environment is mostly down to recognizing social behavior patterns and responding appropriately (verbally) is mostly a matter of learning conversation patterns. There is a lot more that goes into these things but that is the foundation. Same thing goes for body language patterns. Pattern recognition and developing the ability to discern which of your own patterns to utilize in a given scenario (based on your analysis of the patterns being deployed by others in said scenario) is the basis of all social and game skill. Once that is established, a gamer can proceed to improvise and craft his own personal style like adding the icing to an already fully-formed cake.

Put in bold the parts to build a good base, I've been reading a book called "Games people play" by Eric berne which goes in depth on conversational patterns, the reasons behind them and what is involved when human beings converse. I think it's just a matter of recognising which pattern/game is being played as you said. How long would it take before the personal style could be developed if he has a small amount of awareness ? I like him as a person and have known him for quite some time, so I'd prefer having a wingman I can connect with beyond just girls which ironically helps game flow more smoothly in my opinion.

[Waqqle]

@Cold: Glad to help! As for how long it will take to get to a point where his base is solid enough to start honing his own personal style, it really depends on how hard he goes at it and how cognitively intelligent he is. If he is smart and goes at it full force for 1-2 hours a day (after studying some before going at it each day) for 6 days a week (it can be good to take 1 day per week for recovery and rest), then I would expect him to be functional on that level within a pretty short time. Some guys who really go hard get there in a few months. Others take it easier and get there more slowly.

Think of it like the bootcamps that old school PUAs used to run back in the 90s. I advise not stretching it out over years to dilute the discomfort of it. Instead, I advocate hitting it hard for a shorter and more intense period until you get to a place where you are running basically on muscle memory.

This is how Basic Combat Training was designed to work in the Army as well. BCT was only 10 weeks (technically 12-13 for me because I stayed over Christmas) but, by the end of it, I had gained 20lbs of muscle and tasks which were exhausting and even impossible for me when I started were things I did not even have to think about anymore because I had done them so many times exactly the same way that the motions, sequences, and habits were ingrained in me. Same basic concept. The harder he hits it, the less time it will take.