Well first let me congratulate you for your thoughts. I think that you did a great job expressing the issues you are confronting right now. I hope I can give you a little bit of advice that will guide you and will also help all the guys get an understanding of how this works.
Quote: (12-15-2018 09:10 AM)subterfuge Wrote:
The biggest change i've noticed in the industry (particularly on forums but also from coaches/authors etc) is the reduction in the belief of just how powerful 'game' is, and with it, a change of what game is
I saw WestIndianArchie write something about this, and he talked about how most peoples 'game' is actually just screening (but they think they are 'gaming') and only a TINY percentage of game being taught is proper conversion game where you make a girl who isn't attracted to you, attracted to you!
Well, here you're talking about three things:
1. The fact that new coaches and the overall community is focusing less on conversion game and focusing more on screening game. With this trend also comes the pushing of the belief that game is not so powerful and everything you have to do is really reduced to finding girls that are attracted to you.
You are correct in what you are perceiving about the change of direction in game.
You see the thing is this, conversion game is very fucking hard and it takes a lot of time to really master it and be able to apply it. Any guy who wants to become a master at conversion game needs to have a set of skills and resources that would allow him to pursue learning the discipline for as long as it takes for him to get the results he wants.
The fact is that the vast majority of guys do not have the time, resources, motivation, learning skills, conducive environment, support, guidance, etc. to be able to invest the time and effort that really mastering conversion game requires for them to get the results that it can provide.
Most guys have to go to college, work, pay the rent, play sports, watch TV, waste time doing hours of useless homework they get from school, sleep, etc. so they really do not have much time to devote to study something as deep and as complicated and as demanding as game is.
Moreover most of these guys eat like shit, have a terrible fitness, lack of energy, etc. that makes all of this stuff even more difficult for them.
And if that was not enough, most guys are terribly bad educated and lack a lot of skills for studying and understanding new subjects. All thanks to the destruction of the educational system and the liberal indoctrination of kids.
Then, you have the fact that the social landscape has also changed a lot. Making it more dangerous and difficult to practice your game skills with all the feminists, fags and other useful idiots that represent a potential danger and threat to any guy who is heterosexual. Not to mention the me too movement and all the false rape accusations that can scare the shit out of any guy new to this.
So, all of these things make the new guys (the market of gurus and coaches) want things that can be very easily applied and very easily learned. They do not have time to invest in learning very complicated and difficult techniques and methods. They do not have the energy and motivation to go through hell, failure after failure to become masters of a craft. And they certainly do not want to spend the next five years mastering the deepness and darkness of the manipulation disciplines.
Besides that, they are also blue pill betas that live in a fantasyland, endlessly hoping to meet their special girl, their unicorn. They believe that they will be loved by who they are and that manipulating girls to loving them or desiring them is something monstrous to do or to even think or consider in their minds.
So, this reality leads the gurus and coaches to focus their products and marketing to cater to this niche market (which is vast, with huge financial gain potential).
Now, in a sense, I believe that an emphasis on screening game is for the benefit of the community at large, because this type of game will satisfy their basic need of sex.
Screening game provides you the tools to have an abundant sexual life without having to spend years of your life, fortunes and the effort of the gods to master the most advanced seduction methods.
I think that for any aspiring seducer, screening game is the best place to start with. It will give you something to eat and allow you to have a sexual life satisfying enough so that you can maintain your psychological health in such abrasive environments as the new liberal societies are creating.
Conversion game is for those guys who have the call to do so and the patience, resources, motivation, discipline, time, etc. to do so.
Conversion game is for craftsmen.
Screening game is for the regular Joe to get laid and have a healthy and abundant sex life without much effort or time invested.
I myself am a craftsman, who joyfully pursues conversion game for the sake of mastery and personal satisfaction, but I can do that because of the way I have structured my life.
I can pursue mastery because it is congruent for me to do so. I am a salesman, a marketer, an advertiser and an avid student of persuasion and manipulation, so studying seduction is something that I am able to do without having to sacrifice much and something that also adds to my life in many ways, but that is something that very few people can actually do.
Mastery is a fun, interesting and rewarding pursuit, but demanding and tough. It is NOT necessary to get laid consistently, but it is challenging, entertaining and fun for those who are willing to pay the price of pursuing it. In other words, it is a damn fun hobby.
2. Your belief that the definition of game has changed over time.
The definition of game has not changed.
The definition of Game includes BOTH screening game AND conversion game.
They are just opposites in a spectrum of the amount of game applied to interactions.
To put it simply:
- Do you want to have an abundant sex life without much time end effort invested? Do screening game.
- Do you want to lay the most reluctant girls you can find? Do conversion game.
- Do you want to have the highest probability of banging a girl in ANY given situation you find yourself in? Study and master BOTH and the methods that lie between the 2 poles.
Quote: (12-15-2018 09:10 AM)subterfuge Wrote:
I was reading seddit and RSD earlier, and reading some FR's, and lots of people opening (both direct and indirect) getting rejected, and all of the replies are like ''Yep, she just wasn't into you. You never stood a chance. No big deal. Move on to the next one, bro! good stuff!!''
I feel like this sort of reply would never have been given back when it was the mysterymethod boys running the community. 'She just wasn't attracted' could never be an excuse in those days since they believed you could make her attracted
In a sense you are right, the MM guys would try to find a way to bypass her brush offs and get the girl attracted to them.
Quote: (12-15-2018 09:10 AM)subterfuge Wrote:
Another guy started a thread about a hot girl at work and how he's opened her and teased her and been playful and showed confidence but she isn't giving any IOI's at all, and again people are like ''yeah, she's not into you. Next!''
Guys who are screeners are not focused nor interested on getting a specific girl. They are focused on getting sex by playing the numbers game and finding the most receptive girls to work with.
Quote: (12-15-2018 09:10 AM)subterfuge Wrote:
These same people say 'just learn game, bro!' but what's to 'learn' if it's just hitting on girls and seeing which ones like you/think you are hot? That's not a skill in my eyes. There's nothing to 'learn' there.
Even screening game requires game for when you find your “yes” and “maybe” girls, but it is neither as complicated nor elaborate as MM and overall conversion game.
What you are doing with screening game is first locating the girls who are attracted, available and DTF with you, THEN you need a certain amount of game to close the deal and not fuck it up.
They are both skills, just different KIND of skills.
Quote: (12-15-2018 09:10 AM)subterfuge Wrote:
I feel like we are essentially saying that looks really are basically everything.
Looks help in screening game, but not as much as many may think. What it really comes down is to the numbers. THAT is the key in screening game. You need to find the chicks that are horny, available and not totally repelled by you.
The theory goes that the better your looks the lesser your effort (# of approaches), but in practice, it is the numbers that dictate everything pretty much.
Quote: (12-15-2018 09:10 AM)subterfuge Wrote:
Personally, I have my own idea of what game is and what the limits are and I fall inbetween the people who think that it's mainly about her needing to find you physically attractive to have a shot, and the people who think game is some jedi mind trick where, even as a very ugly old dude, you can bang any 10/10 teen cheerleader who takes your fancy if you know game!
I kind of think that good 'game' can give you an extra point or 2 basically. I don't believe an ugly old guy who has nothing other than game will be able to bang 9/10 cheerleaders from cold approach for example. But I think a semi decent good looking guy who has lots of game, who the girl looks at and thinks is 'hot but not as hot as that guy over there by the fruit machine', can compete with the other dude (depending on his game)
The problem that you got is that you are misunderstanding game.
You are giving too much importance to the person than it really has.
Women do not always fuck men because of what they are, they fuck them because they (the men) represent a means to get something else the girl wants (sexual release, money, etc.)
If a chick digs you physically and wants to fuck you because of yourself, then good, but when a chick DOES NOT digs you and you want to fuck her, game gives you the possibility to exploit her other wants and desired outcomes to motivate her to fuck you.
By using game, you get to fuck her through channeling her motivation to reach her other desired outcomes (sexual release, vengeance, money, etc.)
You become a “means to an end” instead of “the end itself” to get her to fuck with you. Got it?
Do not take YOURSELF as so central to the equation for banging a girl, you are not.
Quote: (12-15-2018 09:10 AM)subterfuge Wrote:
Not sure where I want to go with this thread, but maybe lets talk about what your idea of game is and where you stand. If you happen to be a hardcore believer, Maybe even examples of times you've ran or seen conversion game and tips that one can use to influence and manipulate a girl into finding you attractive
I think it was GREAT threat idea that will be of great help to many newbs.
Tips:
- You are not necessarily offering yourself to a girl; you can be offering just sexual release or satisfaction or pleasure. For many a horny girl that is reason enough. It is not nesesarily YOU what they want, it is the RELEASE or the PLEASURE that you offer what they want.
- Girls do NOT have a REAL reason NOT to fuck with you (They fuck animals, things and other women for Christ sake! What makes you think that fucking a man, even an ugly one, would be more difficult than that?). All reasons are socially conditioned. Take away the social risks and costs she perceives with fucking you, arouse her enough and you will fuck her.
Quote: (12-15-2018 09:10 AM)subterfuge Wrote:
I'm not the best looking dude and feel like even whilst using negs, cold reads, etc (if i'm running mm game) or if i'm just self amusing and relying on state trasnference etc (RSD style game) or any other variation of game (i've read about every PUA book in existence!) it's largely entirely out of my control and I find myself flipping between what I actually believe.
If you do not understand the big picture and where does each model fits, you are as good as a newbie destined for a journey full of confusion.
All the methods are valid and very useful, but they are intended for different situations and types of girls. They are different tools for different jobs. Understand the intended purpose of each and you will understand game in its entirety. They are complementary not oppositions.