[ColSpanker]

Been there, had that done to me, bought the T-shirt. The last time (5 years ago) was the last time which is why I no longer work in corporate America.
Bottom line: if she wants to get rid of you, she will find a way. Not much you can do.
Polish up the resume or plan that start-up.

[hydrogonian]

(10-05-2011 08:56 PM)pros80 Wrote:  

(10-04-2011 06:50 PM)hydrogonian Wrote:  

Quote:

You would be surprised at how many companies have this rule. Sure, she could get away with it but that doesn't mean the guy couldn't sue the company anyway.

It is about mitigating risks which is why a lot of companies will only respond with limited information on employment.

What rule? Only to confirm dates?

Okay. But if they dont, and she gives a bad recommendation, I dont understand how the OP could get enough evidence about it to take legal action.

I highly doubt the company that didn't hire him would give that info out, because that would tie them up with a lawsuit that just wastes their time and resources. The company that gave the bad recommendation certainly wouldn't provide evidence. Especially considering that this may all go down over the phone. And even if it doesn't, you aren't going to get a subpoena for email records based on a hunch.

Anyway, I think its possible to get bad recommendations, and have nor recourse, especially depending on the industry that you are in and how tight knit it is or is not.

Hydro, Here is the deal. If you feel you may have got a bad reference. Have a friend call the ex boss or there are services out there that check references for you.

You can see what the boss is actually saying and then can use that. If you find you got a bad reference from the boss.

Send a letter to the boss, the company HR, The boss's boss and other management. They will then know not to do something stupid. This is a HR legal nightmare.

You never wanna live in fear of a ex boss's reference of you. This is how.

In addition lawyers out there have all kinds of strategies to sue etc.. Thats how employment lawyers make their money. They sue but always settle before court.

Okay. Remember, the knowledge I have is from observing and not being knee deep myself. Also, my friend in question was an attorney who was fired from a law firm (in house insurance defense) and so perhaps his recourse would have been a little different given the saviness of his employer. However, a deposition requires that people tell the truth for it to be useful. If the knowledge of the 'bad recommendation' is only between two people, it requires the person who gave it to tell the truth, as well as the person who received it. The person who gave it is probably going to lie. How are you going to know who received and evaluated the bad recommendation at the other company? That can be difficult information to get unless you are trying to get a job at a very small shop. You are going to have trouble knowing who to depose, I think.

Anyway, it sounds like the strategy then is to always quit if you know that you will be fired - given that you can't get a bad recommendation, assuming the aforementioned recourse is effective. The only downside is no unemployment benefits.

[pros80]

(10-07-2011 10:15 AM)hydrogonian Wrote:  

(10-05-2011 08:56 PM)pros80 Wrote:  

(10-04-2011 06:50 PM)hydrogonian Wrote:  

Quote:

You would be surprised at how many companies have this rule. Sure, she could get away with it but that doesn't mean the guy couldn't sue the company anyway.

It is about mitigating risks which is why a lot of companies will only respond with limited information on employment.

What rule? Only to confirm dates?

Okay. But if they dont, and she gives a bad recommendation, I dont understand how the OP could get enough evidence about it to take legal action.

I highly doubt the company that didn't hire him would give that info out, because that would tie them up with a lawsuit that just wastes their time and resources. The company that gave the bad recommendation certainly wouldn't provide evidence. Especially considering that this may all go down over the phone. And even if it doesn't, you aren't going to get a subpoena for email records based on a hunch.

Anyway, I think its possible to get bad recommendations, and have nor recourse, especially depending on the industry that you are in and how tight knit it is or is not.

Hydro, Here is the deal. If you feel you may have got a bad reference. Have a friend call the ex boss or there are services out there that check references for you.

You can see what the boss is actually saying and then can use that. If you find you got a bad reference from the boss.

Send a letter to the boss, the company HR, The boss's boss and other management. They will then know not to do something stupid. This is a HR legal nightmare.

You never wanna live in fear of a ex boss's reference of you. This is how.

In addition lawyers out there have all kinds of strategies to sue etc.. Thats how employment lawyers make their money. They sue but always settle before court.

Okay. Remember, the knowledge I have is from observing and not being knee deep myself. Also, my friend in question was an attorney who was fired from a law firm (in house insurance defense) and so perhaps his recourse would have been a little different given the saviness of his employer. However, a deposition requires that people tell the truth for it to be useful. If the knowledge of the 'bad recommendation' is only between two people, it requires the person who gave it to tell the truth, as well as the person who received it. The person who gave it is probably going to lie. How are you going to know who received and evaluated the bad recommendation at the other company? That can be difficult information to get unless you are trying to get a job at a very small shop. You are going to have trouble knowing who to depose, I think.

Anyway, it sounds like the strategy then is to always quit if you know that you will be fired - given that you can't get a bad recommendation, assuming the aforementioned recourse is effective. The only downside is no unemployment benefits.

Ahh, well if your boy worked for a law firm then its a lot harder cause they know how to cover all gaps and holes and they can represent themselves if you sue so low risk for them

But as to anyone who says they can get rid of you if they really want to, the answer is yes but they will pay a price if they just fire you for no reason. It all depends.

My lawyer friend said in a situation like mine I will likely hang onto my job for a bit until management or demands change. If a layoff happens I could be at the top of that list. I'm likely not gonna get a raise soon but will hang onto my job.

The boss has kept things neutral for the time being since my response.

So there are a lot of ways out there to keep your job if someone is out for your head, but it won't be a fun experience.

[Leonidas_B]

(10-02-2011 02:04 PM)hydrogonian Wrote:  

This just happened to a friend of mine.

I don't want to alarm you, but this is generally what they do, in terms of covering their ass, when they have it in there mind that they want to fire someone.

For whatever legal reason, its not in their best interest to just fire someone unless they are violent, crazy, on drugs, or don't show up. Everyone else generally gets a "performance plan". Then either they can fire you once on the plan for a lesser reason, or wait until you don't meet its impossibly high goals and fire you later. The point is that these plans make it legally easier to fire you.

My friend was fired just a week into his performance plan, and he was meeting the goals. The performance plan was just a legal formality.

However, definitely 'let' them fire you UNLESS you absolutely need the reference and can get one. If you need the reference, and think you will be fired (don't be optimistic, be realistic), then quit so you can get it. If you dont need the work history and recommendation on your resume, then wait to get fired so that you can apply for unemployment benefits.

Either way, be realistic in assessing what is 'probably' going to happen and strategize from there. If a female boss has it out for you, then its likely a no-brainer as to what is happening. Use the time to maybe even land another job while you still have this one. You will have an easier time getting another job while employed.

My friend got stuck because he waited until he got fired, couldn't use the work history on his resume, couldn't use the one before that due to his prior boss being mad that he left for another job, and so even though he has 6 years experience and is a highly skilled attorney (the first boss taught him a lot) he has to start his own business because the likelihood of getting a job with no usable references is nil. His most recent boss was also a woman.

I just like this board. The board made for men by men. To share ideas and to make us feel we are not alone. The samething happened to me twice. The first time I worked my ass off to get a good recommendation. The second time I quit. You got to know your environment

[HiFlo]

im really surprised this hasn't turned to a man vs woman thread! female bosses are a fact of life and it doesn't make sense to turn to men vs women when dealing with employment, because it is what it is.

To OP: you say she hasn't given you feedback AT ALL in the last 6 months. You must express this - tell you WANT continuous feedback. If nothing else, every other Friday walk into her office and directly ask her, "how has been my performance what can I do to improve?"

If u work in a rather large corp, i would recommend checking out this book: http://www.amazon.com/Corporate-Confiden...0312337361

[porscheguy]

(10-03-2011 09:51 PM)pros80 Wrote:  

In case anyone was wondering what happened. I submitted a email to my boss asking to remove the plan and for a follow up meeting.

I presented facts to defend my work and gave examples. I copied HR on the email. She called me to her office and decided to postone or put the plan on hold and we agreed to see how things go.

Lets see what happens! I think I showed I wont be walked over. Or they may call me in and fire me one day who knows !!

Female bosses suck for a multitude of reasons, but they're a fact of life, especially in industries where political correctness is more important than productivity (i.e. government, and government contractors.)

But as much as they want to pretend they're a member of some kind of boy's club for reaching a managerial position, they still pull typical female bullshit. Is there any reason to think this plan/evaluation she gave you was anything more than a shit test? No.

And since you can assume that she's running shit tests, the next course of action would be to turn this around and run some game on her. The goal is to put her in a position to be guilty of sexually harassing you.

You'll notice that in most places with a female boss, the two groups of guys who get ahead are those who happily accept the role of beta orbiter (the ass kissers) and those she deems as mate worthy (those who display alpha behaviors.) Much like the real world, the guys who fare worst of all are those who she has no regard for one way or another.

[Handsome Creepy Eel]

This is kind of exotic for me. I've had a female boss in the past and I have several female colleagues now, and there don't seem to be any problems. Maybe I've been lucky, or maybe this is an advanced American thing that has yet to cross the ocean.

In any case, I have no reason to complain against women in aspects not related to the sexual market.

[puckerman]

If you generally have a shitty attitude toward females bosses, the females bosses will know it. Women have a radar for this kind of stuff. Don't under-estimate how your attitude impacts others around you.

I've had no trouble at all working for middle-aged women, although I did once work for a 22-year-old female who was a nightmare.

Back in February, I was put on a "improvement plan." It also came out of nowhere. If you don't think you can trust your boss, then you need to leave. I found a new job and gave them notice with about two weeks left.

As a general rule, it's hard to get fired from a government job. If you're having trouble with one, you should look in the mirror.

[Deepdiver]

The Female Boss just did you a favor and taught you why you should never work for a female boss their brains really are wired differently based upon emotion - where men will mentor you and bring you along if you perform a woman may consider you a threat and literally try to cut your balls off.

Time to execute the Never Complain and Never Explain plan to find a new environment not dominated by cunt feminists.

I once did some consulting for a Princess Bitch whose older White knight husband gave her the money to set up a Phone Telecomm services business and she was fond of saying how she needed to keep the men that worked for her (Including her Blue Pill husband) "under her thumb" while twisting her thumb into a table or her desk. TOTAL CUNT.

Suffice to say I was on to the next contract the next week.

Surviving employment - Never complain, Never Explain:
thread-55772...pid1301720

[Nineteen84]

Hydrogonian is right. This is most likely the first step in their procedure to let you go.

[puckerman]

There is one other thing to note here. If your company wants to get rid of you and a potential employer wants a reference, the company might just say something like: "Yes, he's great. You should definitely hire him." I've heard at least one manager tell me that it's an employee he wants to be rid of, he is happy to tell them that he's the "greatest employee."

[Gustavus Adolphus]

(05-28-2016 02:42 PM)Nineteen84 Wrote:  

Hydrogonian is right. This is most likely the first step in their procedure to let you go.

This is the somber truth. The Performance Improvement Plan (let's say it's 90 days on average), as invented by HR and Middle Management across the land, does two things:

1. For the underperforming employee that cares about their position, they work very hard for the next three months;

2. Gives HR an opportunity to start recruiting and funneling resumes to the hiring manager to replace you when you inevitably don't "meet the needs of the organization". This takes time for anything but the lowest of positions. They need to go through a substantial HR playground, considering the current EEOC guidelines. Most likely your manager already knows who will replace you within 45 days of your Improvement Plan.

These two simultaneous factors allow the position to be back-filled with the greatest ease, as all aspects have been hyper-managed in great detail by the exiting employee trying to prove their worth; allowing a grace period of slack for the new employee ramp-up and training process to take effect.

If you get a bad vibe from a "new sheriff" in town, and then go on a Performance Improvement Plan, they are effectively giving you the length of said plan to find a new job. Do the minimum to avoid immediate termination, but spend the majority of your time finding new work.

You are toast.

[BrandoninKyiv]

This is why you need to work for yourself. I had many of these jobs. They didn't end well. There is no job security and working for people. They always say that there is but there really isn't because you can get fired at any time and you never know what the bosses are doing or planning.

[lex the impaler]

My employer has a two step plan. Performance development and performance improvement. By the time you're on performance improvement, you're on your way out of the door. The first step has more nebulous objectives, the second is pretty well defined. But y'all are right. By the time you get on one of these, might as well be looking for another job. Word to the wise, never work for a woman.

LTI

[eatthishomie]

Leave the corporate world, bruh.

There's your solution right there.

[Guitarman]

This thread was started 4 1/2 years ago in October 2011. Is this guy still active on the forum?? Did he keep his job or get fired??

I agree, when I used to have a normal employed job, a performance improvement plan meant management were just covering their arses before firing someone.

[iknowexactly]

If you're eccentric or just want to be lazy, a government job ( an actual government job, not as a contractor for a middleman) can be really good because it's so much work to fire you it's easier to keep you as long as you make a reasonable effort.

Also, in a government job you're not costing your boss money, the impetus to get rid of you is far weaker.
I know, I'm an oddball who succeeded in a government job ( Getting a lifetime pension is success by my standards.)

Lots of people who consider themselves conservatives or libertarians disparage government workers, but government jobs have been a vehicle for someone with low social status but good ability to move from the laborer class to the middle class.

There is an element of fairness to evaluations, they actually need to have an objective reason to fire you, and it is definitely usually easier to get an employee who is actually trying to fix their performance, than to keep documenting, and documenting which is what is needed to fire them.

Bottom line, it's just easier not to fire you, and most people take the path of least resistance.

[pros80]

Wow, LMAOF saw this old thread I started. From reading it again my views have evolved about this stuff.

This was a private contractor job that does work for government.

I think I kept that job for a few more months before finding another one. Protesting the plan with the right wording helped me stay on the job a few months longer to find another one.

I've had a mixed bag with both female and male bosses since. I don't buy the trust your boss thing, corporations are selfish places so trust a bit with skepticism. Older women with families I've found are good bosses to work with vs the younger 30s women who are trying to climb the ladder.

The Performance plan is not about improving as some have wrote on here. If they want you to improve they will tell you what to improve without some plan where you have to write everything and send to bosses and HR like a second grader.

The HR term for this is out counseling. And don't trust HR either they work for management not you even when they tell you they want you to succeed.

But haven't had to deal with one of these again thankfully. After awhile you get a sense of the kind of bosses you can work for and the ones that drive you crazy.

One thing that's fucked up about these things is that if the Frame is set that you are an inferior employee that needs to improve and document it to everyone it damages your psyche and is not good for your confidence or health. So as someone said do the minimum to stay on and then find other job. Disengage emotionally from the job and just do the work.

[tomtud]

Go see an employment lawyer immediately. It is constructive dismissal if she is planning all along to replace you.

If you need a reference that will be tough. Catch her on a good day where you did exemplary work and she seems in a good mood, maybe on a Thursday or Friday. Make up some fake job opportunity and ask her nicely for a reference. Maybe she will give you a gleaming reference just to get rid of you. If she doesn't give you one by Monday or Tuesday go see a lawyer. Then go see a few more. This is very important as employers can play with your career so can lawyers play with the employers. See which one has the best plan of action.

[Nico]

OP, Hydro is giving a lot of good advice. The best thing to do put safeguards into place to protect your ability to be employed, finances, and reputation. Don't give up on the job, however don't turn this into a showdown where you eat shit if you lose.

[Frank Underwood]

(06-03-2016 02:05 PM)pros80 Wrote:  

Wow, LMAOF saw this old thread I started. From reading it again my views have evolved about this stuff.

This was a private contractor job that does work for government.

I think I kept that job for a few more months before finding another one. Protesting the plan with the right wording helped me stay on the job a few months longer to find another one.

I've had a mixed bag with both female and male bosses since. I don't buy the trust your boss thing, corporations are selfish places so trust a bit with skepticism. Older women with families I've found are good bosses to work with vs the younger 30s women who are trying to climb the ladder.

The Performance plan is not about improving as some have wrote on here. If they want you to improve they will tell you what to improve without some plan where you have to write everything and send to bosses and HR like a second grader.

The HR term for this is out counseling. And don't trust HR either they work for management not you even when they tell you they want you to succeed.

But haven't had to deal with one of these again thankfully. After awhile you get a sense of the kind of bosses you can work for and the ones that drive you crazy.

One thing that's fucked up about these things is that if the Frame is set that you are an inferior employee that needs to improve and document it to everyone it damages your psyche and is not good for your confidence or health. So as someone said do the minimum to stay on and then find other job. Disengage emotionally from the job and just do the work.

Good to hear, man. I've had bosses try to pull similar shit to push me out of a job. And I've had friends who've been in the same position.

Just wanna repeat, because it can't be repeated enough: HR is never your friend. Abso-fuckin'-lutely never. The only time you should consider talking to them is if someone in management did something that could result in a lawsuit, and there's irrefutable evidence that management fucked up. Having colleagues as witnesses aren't good enough, because you are not signing those peoples' paychecks.

Only time I've ever gotten HR to do something is when I had decent evidence a boss was straight up lying about me to screw me out of future jobs. Giving a bad reference is completely legal. Giving a fake reference, good or bad, is what's illegal. From what I understand (not a lawyer, have only spoken to a handful, call me out if I'm full of shit), but losing out on a job because an old boss decided to lie about you constitutes a solid argument that you've lost money because of the lying boss, which makes lawyers more likely to take the case/take it for cheap. Most places don't want to bother with that, even if they're giant multinationals with more money to throw around than all of us combined will see in our lives, so they're actually strict on that.

Your boss isn't your friend either. Your boss might be a genuinely great guy and end up becoming a true friend or mentor. On the other hand, he might just be trying to let your guard down, and use that to create/gather dirt on you, so he can throw you under the bus later. Most traditional jobs (and I'm including "startup" gigs in that, for our socially inept and painfully honest brothers in software) reward people who can play that political game far better than they reward the guys who try and climb the ladder by being honest and working hard.

Good luck to any other forum readers out there who are getting fucked over by their bosses and HR.

[RoastBeefCurtains4Me]

(06-07-2016 09:36 AM)Nico Wrote:  

OP, Hydro is giving a lot of good advice. The best thing to do put safeguards into place to protect your ability to be employed, finances, and reputation. Don't give up on the job, however don't turn this into a showdown where you eat shit if you lose.

The OP was updating a thread he started five years ago, to tell what has happened in the intervening years. It's not a current situation.

[Easy_C]

(06-03-2016 02:05 PM)pros80 Wrote:  

I've had a mixed bag with both female and male bosses since. I don't buy the trust your boss thing, corporations are selfish places so trust a bit with skepticism. Older women with families I've found are good bosses to work with vs the younger 30s women who are trying to climb the ladder.

Ya know, that's actually a good observation now that you mention it. We've got a significant number of those types at my current internship and they are for the most part relatively easy to deal with. They're just there to do what they need to do, collect a paycheck, and go home. Since their main interest is getting everything done in time to leave by the time their kids get done with sports practice they aren't interested in starting any drama.

Contrast that to the social climber females we have in my MBA program. Most of the Asian, the Italian, and the Eastern European ones aside, they're terrible people and I can barely tolerate working with them. The thought of working FOR them is a revolting prospect.

[Australia Sucks]

O.P. in my experience H.R. and higher management will almost always take the side of your supervisor(s) over you no matter how right you are and how wrong or idiotic they are. There are a few exceptions but at least 95% of the time (my opinion) that is the way it is. Management (and H.R.) protects management.

Escalating issues up the chain of command probably won't fix anything and will likely make things even worse. Ask for a transfer to a different department/location and if they won't give it you, then start looking for another job. Fighting back is rarely a winning proposition. Most managers are incompetent morons and its simply the reality of the modern workplace that we must all tolerate it if we choose to be an employee.

[Australia Sucks]

Funny story. One time this nosy bitch who wasn't even my manager, she was my manager's boss and she did not like me one bit. My manager liked me, but my manager's boss hated me and decided to "performance manage" me. I stuck to the "performance plan" and after a week she basically never mentioned it again because she was to lazy to follow up so things kind of went back to normal.

A few months after that the dumb bitch who tried to performance manage me got fired for doing tampering with employees electronic "time-sheets" (she changed their sign in and sign out times on the system). Managers that are too focused on playing politics and too focused on other people's work rather than their own usually get themselves into trouble sooner or later.

I can only ever think of two female managers I had that were somewhat decent and the rest were completely retarded. Most women are shit at their jobs. Almost any time you see a woman doing a job there is a man that could do the job far, far better. The exception being the feminine types of occupations like nurses and secretaries.