[TravelerKai]

I will say this about Lil Wayne. He is hands down the most improved rapper in history. Nobody has ever leaped up or drastically improved their lyricsm the way he has. When he first started he was weak lyrically. Almost wack even in some ways. Now? Dude is a monster.

Usually it is the reverse. Rappers start out with tremendous bangs. You are hearing their entire notepads worth of rhymes they were sitting on. Their first 1 or 2 albums are legendary. Bars for days and memorable quotes. Lil Wayne did the opposite. The more fucked up, dysfunctional, and outright strange his life got, the crazier his lyrics got.

[TigerMandingo]

^^would you say the same for Chris Brown? Not technically a rapper I know but I feel like his shit got 10x better after he slapped Rihanna around and got tatted up

[Eddie Winslow]

A full page of lists and no one put Biggie in their TOP 5???

Biggie
Kendrick
Jay-Z
Wyclef
Lil Wayne
...many more

Fugees
Wu-Tang
A$AP
Three 6 Mafia
Outkast

[VisionsofGandhi]

(06-20-2018 11:14 AM)TravelerKai Wrote:  

I will say this about Lil Wayne. He is hands down the most improved rapper in history. Nobody has ever leaped up or drastically improved their lyricsm the way he has. When he first started he was weak lyrically. Almost wack even in some ways. Now? Dude is a monster.

Usually it is the reverse. Rappers start out with tremendous bangs. You are hearing their entire notepads worth of rhymes they were sitting on. Their first 1 or 2 albums are legendary. Bars for days and memorable quotes. Lil Wayne did the opposite. The more fucked up, dysfunctional, and outright strange his life got, the crazier his lyrics got.

Can you show some of it? I have never seen a Wayne song where he wasn't terribly bad especially his lyrical side which is at it's best bad , non-existent, outright terrible. I'm genuinely interested about this improvement you're talking about, He's hot boyz shit sounded better then anything else he has put out and i've seen.

[VisionsofGandhi]

What are you're guys top 5 from this generation?´

Mine's

1. Freddie gibbs
2. Don q
3. Dave east¨
4. Young Ma
5. Joey badass

[VisionsofGandhi]

(06-20-2018 11:08 AM)TravelerKai Wrote:  

My Top 5 Rappers:
(Based on pure raw lyricism)

1. Nas
2. Big L
3. GZA
4. Black Thought
5. Eminem

That was alot harder than I thought it would be. 4 and 5 might be a tie for me. Kanye West could have made it too, but....man I dunno. He can write well but I am pretty sure others have written for him. The guys on my list would never let someone else write bars for them. That's a personal affront and highly offensive to them at the core essence. Had JR Writer ever made it big, he could have been a consideration. Big Pun is not a bad fit either, but Eminem and Thought is much better than he is at raw spittin. Biggie of course could have made this list but those other guys surpassed him a while ago. Dying early doesn't make you the best at anything. Lil Wayne is amazing. In time I might have to bump someone else out for him.

My Top 5 Rap Groups
(Basis: Hit songs)

1. Wu Tang Clan
2. Three 6 Mafia
3. Outkast
4. Mobb Deep
5. UGK

That was a shit load easier than the other list. Nobody tops the Wu. GZA, Method Man, U-God, Raekwon, Ghostface Killah, are monsters in their own right. Raekwon by himself has an arguable top 5 greatest album of all time (Only Built 4 Cuban Linx). Three 6 Mafia has too many hit jams that just go hard as fuck. Too many classic beats and flows that heavily affected the entire South and beyond. Mobb Deep ditto but for the North and East Coast. Outkast could have been number 2 and that would not have been wrong either, but you said my personal list. UGK because they have way too many hit songs and vastly underrated. Dirty Money is probably 1 of best 5 rap group album of all time, definitely rap duo. The entire album like Raekwon's did not have a bad track in it.

Man i feel like i should've picked black thought he's to underrated. Lyrically better then all most all even Nas. He's new freestyle is something unprecedented in rap history probably an unforgettable moment, he really has made his mark in hip-hop

[TravelerKai]

(06-20-2018 11:56 AM)TigerMandingo Wrote:  

^^would you say the same for Chris Brown? Not technically a rapper I know but I feel like his shit got 10x better after he slapped Rihanna around and got tatted up

I honestly would not know. I don't pay attention to any of his stuff. When it comes to RnB I only listen to Dave Hollister, Joe, Tank, dudes like that. Old school stuff as well.

[TravelerKai]

(06-20-2018 12:23 PM)VisionsofGandhi Wrote:  

(06-20-2018 11:14 AM)TravelerKai Wrote:  

I will say this about Lil Wayne. He is hands down the most improved rapper in history. Nobody has ever leaped up or drastically improved their lyricsm the way he has. When he first started he was weak lyrically. Almost wack even in some ways. Now? Dude is a monster.

Usually it is the reverse. Rappers start out with tremendous bangs. You are hearing their entire notepads worth of rhymes they were sitting on. Their first 1 or 2 albums are legendary. Bars for days and memorable quotes. Lil Wayne did the opposite. The more fucked up, dysfunctional, and outright strange his life got, the crazier his lyrics got.

Can you show some of it? I have never seen a Wayne song where he wasn't terribly bad especially his lyrical side which is at it's best bad , non-existent, outright terrible. I'm genuinely interested about this improvement you're talking about, He's hot boyz shit sounded better then anything else he has put out and i've seen.

Hot Boyz stuff was pretty decent and good in spots.

Take a look at any Wayne verse from 500 Degrees and none of those verses compare to anything in The Carter 1 or 2.

Not sure if lyrics are on the internet but he had a TON of Squad Up stuff. None of those freestyles come close to anything on Carter 1 or 2.

I Am Not A Human Being song Bill Gates was notably good.

I think when talking about Wayne, in my mind, there are two kinds. The Gift of Gab style Wayne, just straight spittin rhymes and then you have Streaming Consciousness Wayne.

The second Wayne says stuff like the entire Carter 4 basically. His Blunt Blowin song is like one of the realist/rawest things I have ever heard about how someone feels walking around in their daily life.

Quote:

Yeah
And I'm a
Blunt blowin'
Polo drawls showin'
I don't give a lovely motherfuck ass nigga
With my money growing, no matter where you're goin'
You don't need a bus pass, for me to bust yo ass nigga

This came out in 2011, but how many other songs have you heard about all these things, but never summed up quite like this in a nutshell?

Wayne is just in his own world. He is different and has extremely large appeal. He is a skater and is adored by skater kids and girls from those scenes. I cannot think of a rapper like that. All while being a blood gang member that is ratchet as hell all at the same time. Crazy stuff.

If there was a entry in a dictionary to describe "Don't give a fuck" Wayne's picture has to be one of the ones shown. He embodies that feeling better than nearly any other rapper alive or dead.

Then his raps about his drug use are on a whole other level. Absolutely nutty stuff. Check out this verse from Trippy.

Quote:

Uh, blue skies, blue skies, I see you with my red eyes
Bust your fucking grape nigga, turn your shit to red wine
Don't fuck up my high nigga, I'm too gone, bye nigga
She get dick, weed and ignored, thats a D.W.I nigga
My skin crawlin', my walls talkin', the pictures in here lookin' at me
The ground movin', I'm seeing shit, I'm blowing like I'm stuck in traffic
I'm smoking on that strong, got me coughing like I'm getting buried
I've been fucking Mary-Jane, I knew her when she was just Virgin Mary
I'm stoned, Mick Jagger, I can run around Saturn
Eyes rolling back and keep blinking like hazards
I said king me, king me with my mushroom crown on
I graduated to better drugs, my cap and gown on
Don't knock me off my high horse, what I do is my choice
I'm high as the scoreboard, bitch look up at my points
I'm trippin' out, cotton mouth, I got high and fell asleep loaded
I woke up and got high again, O.K, I'm reloaded

That entire verse is absolutely bonkers. One of the best I have ever heard and I doubt I am alone on that assessment. He has a codeine drank song (Me and My Drank) that is better than most rappers that rapped their entire lives about sippin drank, like Big Moe for example. He did give Moe a shoutout (RIP Big Moe) in the song but still. Wayne is a beast.

The only other rapper that gives the same impression of Wayne and is stylistically similar, is ASAP Rocky. That intro verse in Pretty Flacko was epic. He can stream and rhyme like Wayne, but he seems a bit inconsistent but when he flashes greatness it's really nice stuff.

[TravelerKai]

(06-20-2018 12:30 PM)VisionsofGandhi Wrote:  

(06-20-2018 11:08 AM)TravelerKai Wrote:  

My Top 5 Rappers:
(Based on pure raw lyricism)

1. Nas
2. Big L
3. GZA
4. Black Thought
5. Eminem

That was alot harder than I thought it would be. 4 and 5 might be a tie for me. Kanye West could have made it too, but....man I dunno. He can write well but I am pretty sure others have written for him. The guys on my list would never let someone else write bars for them. That's a personal affront and highly offensive to them at the core essence. Had JR Writer ever made it big, he could have been a consideration. Big Pun is not a bad fit either, but Eminem and Thought is much better than he is at raw spittin. Biggie of course could have made this list but those other guys surpassed him a while ago. Dying early doesn't make you the best at anything. Lil Wayne is amazing. In time I might have to bump someone else out for him.

My Top 5 Rap Groups
(Basis: Hit songs)

1. Wu Tang Clan
2. Three 6 Mafia
3. Outkast
4. Mobb Deep
5. UGK

That was a shit load easier than the other list. Nobody tops the Wu. GZA, Method Man, U-God, Raekwon, Ghostface Killah, are monsters in their own right. Raekwon by himself has an arguable top 5 greatest album of all time (Only Built 4 Cuban Linx). Three 6 Mafia has too many hit jams that just go hard as fuck. Too many classic beats and flows that heavily affected the entire South and beyond. Mobb Deep ditto but for the North and East Coast. Outkast could have been number 2 and that would not have been wrong either, but you said my personal list. UGK because they have way too many hit songs and vastly underrated. Dirty Money is probably 1 of best 5 rap group album of all time, definitely rap duo. The entire album like Raekwon's did not have a bad track in it.

Man i feel like i should've picked black thought he's to underrated. Lyrically better then all most all even Nas. He's new freestyle is something unprecedented in rap history probably an unforgettable moment, he really has made his mark in hip-hop

My eyes glazed over and my mind went into orbit when I watched that freestyle on Youtube the first time.

Snapped out of it.

Then I picked up my phone and told Fortis about it and made him watch it.

Then went back to the video and listened to it 3 more times.

Ended up getting no work done that day. Beyond Epic. That freestyle, the Eminem and Royce Da 5'9" 12 minute freestyle, and the JR Writer freestyle should be put in a hiphop museum with a platinum coated frame around the video screen.

[TravelerKai]

For those that do not know what we are talking about:

[Rhyme or Reason]

Dylon, Dylon, Dylon, Dylon, and Dylon.

[Rigsby]

Well, I don't feel suitably qualified to comment on whether Lil Wayne is a great rapper or not. But I do know he plays a mean guitar!

This is mine, fwiw:

Top Rappers: (based on their innovativeness, their flow, their rhythm, their lyrics, their humour, the fact they keep it real and don't chat shit, their tone, the way they dress, their consistency, their collaborations and general output - these are the full package as far as I'm concerned) -

1: Erick Sermon
2: Shock G
3: Humpty Hump
4: MC Lyte
5: CL Smooth


Top Bands: (based on the fact they did a good album once. Some of these acts only really did one, or at most two, great albums. You can't be a great band/act unless you did at least one great album. Some might have even done three) -

1: Digital Underground
2: EPMD
3: Beastie Boys
4: Skinnyman
5: B.W.P.


I'll just give a shout out here for Skinnyman. His album "Council Estate of Mind" was a real classic. It never got the recognition it deserved. Raw British Rap/Hip Hop at its finest.

I remember schlepping around boxes of his CDs when it came out in 2004 in a back of a car with his mates. There was a sense that this was really going to take off. It never did. Skinny is a bit of a rough diamond. He got involved with some other shit that I won't mention here. Didn't help his cause.

I don't judge or pretend to understand anyone that makes this music. But I know what is good and what isn't. "Council Estate of Mind" is considered an unrecognized classic on the street. Most American people will never have heard of it. They probably wouldn't even like it if they did.

This music was a cry. A social commentary. But it went unheeded. Then things descended. Rap/Hip Hop was always about the message for me (still is). Whether that is humour like B.W.P. or Digital Underground, or stuff like Skinnyman put out...

[kaotic]

Top 5 Artists (no particular order) (but fuck there's so many others)

-Pac
-Biggie
-Cube
-Nas
-K.dot (Kendrick Lamar)

Honorable mentions:

-Twista
-DMX
-Busta Ryhmes
-Gang Starr (Guru)
-Mos Def

Top 5 Groupsno particular order)

-Wu Tang
-Outkast
-ATCQ (A Tribe Called Quest)
-NWA
-Beastie Boys (even when they were punk rock also)

Honorable Mentions:

-Fugees
-Public Enemy
-Naughty By Nature
-De La Soul
-The Visionaries

Important Albums To Mention:

-Genius/Gza - Liquid Swords - this album has by far the most profound impact on me as far as lyrical hooks and beats

-Typical Cats - Self Titled/Civil Service - Dirty, raw, the entire album could be a straight up dis track (which some of it is)

-Atmosphere - God Loves Ugly - underrated album with raw lyric deliverance

-Immortal Technique - Revolutionary Vol 1 & 2 - His political knowledge is intelligent, makes you think, also has some fucked mind bending songs (Dance With The Devil) - his delivery is a raw I don't give a fuck, fuck you, style.

[Stonk]

Whoever says Lil Wayne isn't a gifted rapper hasn't heard his music. Carter III is arguably the best rap album ever ( well, it gives illmatic and Reasonable Doubt a run for their money).

Check out Wayne's dedication series. Consistent improvement. His lyrics are tight, his puns are otherworldly and his flow is smooth.

Let's not forget that Wayne influenced almost all modern rappers (Drake, 2Chainz, Nicki Minaj, Kendrick, G-eazy, Chance etc). I wouldn't say he is GOAT material, but he certainly comes close.

[kaotic]

Lil' Wayne is a solid wrapper, he's had support since he was a teen doing his thing, it's a no brainer he's good.

Carter III was legit, so many bangers, so many girls got banged to that album.

[Avon Barksdale]

1. Pusha T
2. Fabulous
3. Tory Lanez
4. Jadakiss
5. Ace Hood

[Goldin Boy]

(06-20-2018 11:14 AM)TravelerKai Wrote:  

I will say this about Lil Wayne. He is hands down the most improved rapper in history. Nobody has ever leaped up or drastically improved their lyricsm the way he has. When he first started he was weak lyrically. Almost wack even in some ways. Now? Dude is a monster.

Usually it is the reverse. Rappers start out with tremendous bangs. You are hearing their entire notepads worth of rhymes they were sitting on. Their first 1 or 2 albums are legendary. Bars for days and memorable quotes. Lil Wayne did the opposite. The more fucked up, dysfunctional, and outright strange his life got, the crazier his lyrics got.

C'mon man, I thought this was obvious:

He started using a ghostwriters around the time the Carter II came out. Gillie the Kid from Philadelphia exposed this years ago(and fucked up his money).

I used to teach high school literature and every poet or author has something called a literary voice. It's the way you use punctuation, your grammar, diction, and syntax. Writer's can improve or decline but their voice generally stays consistent. Wayne's voice completely changed circa 2004. First time I heard Fireman, I said: "No way he wrote that shit."

If I had a student who wrote like a dyslexic 10 year old suddenly start using 10 dollar words writing prose like he was possessed by the ghost of William F. Buckley, I could tell he plagiarized or paid someone to write his papers. And they always confessed when confronted, ha.

It doesn't make sense: Dude most quotable line pre-Carter II was

Quote:

Wobble, wobble, drop it like it's hot

And now all of a sudden, he cooking up these crazy puns, metaphors, and similies? It doesn't add up. He still entertaining but I can consider one of the best when he's got a team of writers backing him.

[Rigsby]

Only one female rapper so far.

MC Lyte is right up there, but so is Roxanne Shanté. They are definitely both Top 5 of all time female rappers.

Do real men only listen to to other real men?

Serious question.

There aren't many male rappers that can hold it down with Lyte and Shanté. Sure, the top fellas you've all mentioned here. But the rest of the crap rappers? Don't think so.

Lyte and Shante are absolutely vicious. There's a couple of others too, but let's just use them as examples.

Lyrics, humour, delivery. The full package.

It's not like either of them are spouting rad/fem BS. They are just chucking out beefs with other Bytches. Or a bum boyfriend. It's all good.

I can't listen to Midnight Oil anymore after finding out that they are selling white guilt. I love the music, but it just rankles too much. In the bin.

But this shit has stood the test of time. More than that, it sounds better than ever, what with all the luke warm BS around today.

These big mamas meant it!

"Now as for that West Coast slut?".

Are you going to tell her, or shall I?

There aren't really that many great Rap/Hip Hop female artists. They are a definite minority. But they got my respect. And their male production teams.

I love beef videos between Bytches. Cat fight!

It's entertainment.

When men go in to this then people get shot, but when women do it, it's a little less 'escalated'. It's a show.

Anyway Roxanne, "Due Respect".

Fucking incredible music. Big mama. This gives me the buzz I used to get when I first discovered Heavy Metal music.

Am I beta?

[Cr33pin]

(06-19-2018 03:49 PM)lex the impaler Wrote:  

1. Take off
2. Offset
3. Quavo
4. Chief Keef
5. XXXTentacion.

[TravelerKai]

(06-20-2018 05:14 PM)Goldin Boy Wrote:  

(06-20-2018 11:14 AM)TravelerKai Wrote:  

I will say this about Lil Wayne. He is hands down the most improved rapper in history. Nobody has ever leaped up or drastically improved their lyricsm the way he has. When he first started he was weak lyrically. Almost wack even in some ways. Now? Dude is a monster.

Usually it is the reverse. Rappers start out with tremendous bangs. You are hearing their entire notepads worth of rhymes they were sitting on. Their first 1 or 2 albums are legendary. Bars for days and memorable quotes. Lil Wayne did the opposite. The more fucked up, dysfunctional, and outright strange his life got, the crazier his lyrics got.

C'mon man, I thought this was obvious:

He started using a ghostwriters around the time the Carter II came out. Gillie the Kid from Philadelphia exposed this years ago(and fucked up his money).

I used to teach high school literature and every poet or author has something called a literary voice. It's the way you use punctuation, your grammar, diction, and syntax. Writer's can improve or decline but their voice generally stays consistent. Wayne's voice completely changed circa 2004. First time I heard Fireman, I said: "No way he wrote that shit."



If I had a student who wrote like a dyslexic 10 year old suddenly start using 10 dollar words writing prose like he was possessed by the ghost of William F. Buckley, I could tell he plagiarized or paid someone to write his papers. And they always confessed when confronted, ha.

It doesn't make sense: Dude most quotable line pre-Carter II was

Quote:

Wobble, wobble, drop it like it's hot

And now all of a sudden, he cooking up these crazy puns, metaphors, and similies? It doesn't add up. He still entertaining but I can consider one of the best when he's got a team of writers backing him.

Hard to argue against this. Well said. I too thought that Fireman song was completely out of his usual when it came out. Back then I was not a Wayne fan at all. I think I was still on that Lil Flip hardcore and thought he was the best of the South back then. Lil Wayne lovers were clowning me pretty bad back then and I guess I had to take those lumps or whatever.

If he is ghostwriting, and it definitely seemed like it, that's wild as fuck, because even for ghostwritten work those lyrics are extremely fire. You would think whoever is writing that for him would just use that himself. A large team would make more sense though. Kanye does group project collaboration. It's such a team effort to produce stuff for him and everything is planned so meticulously, it somewhat takes away from being a lyrical beast. He is more about the finished product as a whole.

I did hear that when whenever Wayne isn't too high or doing anything else, he runs into the booth to record whatever is on his mind on the spot. Some of his freestyling is put on other stuff. Migos does the same thing, except that is the only way they produce work. They allegedly do not write anything down. They say Wayne is sitting on tons of material but of course his contract disputes are blocking everything.

[ShotgunUppercuts]

Hell nah i cant agree on that .

He may have improved lyrically (i think his old shit is better than his shit he had on his run) but the rapper to do it best? Nah I don’t agree.


Personally i don’t listen to him so im biased

[ShotgunUppercuts]

Honorable mention (shoulda been on the list )

Brownsville Ka


Its one thing to listen to his raps but to read em off the paper is another. Dudes pen is solid steel.


“Wish for a new life when I blew out them candles
Was in them cruel nights, knew I was about to scramble
A little crook to get em hooked, threw out a sample
Five soldiers against high rollers, the crew out to gamble
If them crackas'll blitz and catch the package I pitch
You could quote me, it won't be a slap on the wrist
But that's the risk when you wish to rack in the bricks
And you getting it for whipping the caps and the zips
Flexin 'em ounces destined to stretch to the mountains
Defenders not represented by the best of the counselors
All in one stack from jump packs hastily diminish
Runnin' lower done with before the case even finished
But I swear I ain't hear a word of this
Wheeling and dealing, feeling impervious
When it's steady sling fuck everything it's the mantra
I never said a thing, just let it ring through contra
I nest hate, hold heat so weak in my best shape
You press fate, press late - it's your death date
Get down for the crown, even if it got thorns
Fights are final when might is primal we lock horns
Won't dupe the block you shoot to stop no shots warned
Never slack cause attack first time we spot yawns
Rah! That's the infantry symphony
For revenue we're telling you, this ain't how it's meant to be
You and your peers prime years ignored your call
Grindin' gears, for cheers here tryin' to score for more
Can't see certain of the peace, became lord of war
Holy controller was rolling in the corridor
If anything move through, who you? Fuck you want?
Aggressive but finesse is how to pull a tougher stunt
The highest getting money money, never had to puff a blunt
For the record it's saw as checkers, you get huffed the jump
Tryna kick-start when blitz hard, rush the pump
Pack heat, too big for the backseat, bust the trunk
And if men caught they taught to hush for monks
Never know me to fear, only veneers is the custom fronts”

[Fortis]

Problem with threads like this is that it's always the same 15 groups rearranged in some way. I'd rather know what your top-5 favorite active groups are. Then we could really learn something from eachother.

[Goldin Boy]

Forgot to reply to the main thread:

Groups:

Wu-Tang
Mobb Deep
Outkast

Rappers:

Jay-z(most versatile rapper I can think of, has been relevant for nearly 20 years in a genre with popularity usually lasts 2 years)
Eminem(most of commercial appeal comes from being White but he was great lyrically)
Kool G Rap
Prodigy
Immortal Technique(needs more albums though)

Honorable mentions:
Jadakiss
Scarface
Ghostface Killah
Lupe
Biggie

[Repo]

Gucci mane is in my active top 5 and I dont care what anyone thinks