[Hell_Is_Like_Newark]

(08-29-2018 10:15 PM)godzilla Wrote:  

I agree with you about the solution though. We don't need to end student loan financing though, we just need to allow the students to file for bankruptcy. The price of college would drop in half in no time.

You would also need to dissolve Sallie Mae. Right now defaulted loans would be picked up by the taxpayer. Get the government out of financing schools (outside of the military academies).

[Running Turtles]

(08-29-2018 09:24 AM)ChicagoFire Wrote:  

This is such a crazy thread overall. The people that go to school are either geniuses for gaming the system or are idiots for doubling down, maybe in some cases tripling down. If your first degree lands you as a waiter, the second degree must be an improvement (hey at least I'm making 40K as a general manager at Starbucks), the third degree lands you as an unpaid intern at a white shoe lawyer, etc. I know some people like this, and I shit you not some have an engineering degree and are pouring coffee.

I agree with the general sentiment that college is a ripoff nowadays (unless you're a hustler gaming the system). Education is important but taking out loans is the epitome of stupidity. I think universities should bear the burden of this by taxing their endowments but our genius politicians will find a way to screw the taxpayers. I remember years back there were arguments about the student loan bubble bursting by equating it to the housing market. I personally think there is no bubble but the adverse effects will be lower birth rates and decreased home ownership.

How would a hustler game the education system? I never went to college/uni, but I've always wondered if I'm missing out.

[godzilla]

(08-30-2018 07:42 AM)Hell_Is_Like_Newark Wrote:  

(08-29-2018 10:15 PM)godzilla Wrote:  

I agree with you about the solution though. We don't need to end student loan financing though, we just need to allow the students to file for bankruptcy. The price of college would drop in half in no time.

You would also need to dissolve Sallie Mae. Right now defaulted loans would be picked up by the taxpayer. Get the government out of financing schools (outside of the military academies).

Exactly right. Misworded that. Thanks

[Leads]

And to think I once was worried about my 9K fed student loan. Never will they see a penny

[Parras]

I find it amazing that virtually all of the European countries have tuition-free college while American students drown heavily in debt, which ties them to their parents basement and can't buy a house, a car because they are tied paying college debt.


The good news is that the majority of Americans want tuition-free college.

According to polls, 63% of Americans want tuition-free college.

https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktake...ege-states


This is the way forward.

[ChicagoFire]

* Rack up loans and go on deferment.

* Start a new life somewhere else. For example, if you want to be an actor and you're stuck in the middle of Kansas then go to an acting school in LA for 5 months. Meet enough people and then drop out. Since you know enough about your school you can still use their resources for free. Catch my sentiment, as it's about thinking outside the box and gaming the education system if you theoretically are stuck in some city you don't like. I'm kind of in this stage and if certain things don't change in my life I'm shooting for this route (not acting, I don't want to tell people what I'm considering for privacy reasons).

Not meant to be advice, theoretically if you were to declare bankruptcy to wipe out student loans that could be taxable as loan forgiveness. Imagine paying off a million dollar loan forgiveness!

(08-30-2018 11:43 AM)Running Turtles Wrote:  

How would a hustler game the education system? I never went to college/uni, but I've always wondered if I'm missing out.

[torridon747]

Students loans cannot be cleared through bankruptcy. Good thing you're not giving advice.

Also everyone that went to college to acquire gainful employment with a devent sense of direction and a non bullshit degree usually does alright. It's not all about your education it's also about the connections you make and leverage.

Engineering grads working at Starbucks? Yeah, I guess probably. But they fucked up. Thought they could do the bare minimum on that sweet government loan money and their diploma would be a free job ticket. Doesn't work that way, they weren't lied to, they're not victims they just weren't smart enough to play the game correctly. To the victors go the spoils as it's always been, to the failures well, I guess they should be grateful for their starbucks job

[godzilla]

Best way to clear student loans if your poor is to enter the military.

[DannyAlberta]

This won't be a popular opinion, but I am very much against large-scale or mass student loan amnesty. While I do have sympathy for young people hoodwinked by government, the education Ponzi industry and in many cases their own parents, mass debt forgiveness just absolves everyone of any and all personal responsibility.

In fact it's worse. It outsources someone's irresponsibility to responsible tax payers (and make no mistake, it's going to be tax payers told to pick up this tab).

The moral hazard it will create is nothing to sneer at either. Ask yourself whether large scale debt forgiveness will increase or decrease the incessant demands for "free" stuff (given the meaning of free in the early 21st Century means luxurious stuff that is "free" to the people who get it, but expensive as hell to those who must pay for it)?

No one FORCED the loans to be taken out, especially for useless degrees. Forgiveness should be limited. They should all pay much, if not most, of it back.

[godfather dust]

I agree it's too late for debt forgiveness as it would be paid for with taxes.

The solution would be to force universities to have "skin in the game." If they allow someone to spend 6 figures on a worthless degree they would be responsible for a large amount of any unpayable debt. This would have the side effect of shutting down the vast majority of liberal arts programs.

[Enoch]

(08-30-2018 04:28 PM)Parras Wrote:  

I find it amazing that virtually all of the European countries have tuition-free college while American students drown heavily in debt, which ties them to their parents basement and can't buy a house, a car because they are tied paying college debt.


The good news is that the majority of Americans want tuition-free college.

According to polls, 63% of Americans want tuition-free college.

https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktake...ege-states


This is the way forward.

This is a popular leftist talking point.

Only the top 20% of students go to what we understand as college. The nation invests in its smartest people.

An equivalent would be having to get a 1300/1600 on your SAT to attend free university in the U.S.

[SlickyBoy]

(08-29-2018 10:15 PM)godzilla Wrote:  

I agree with you about the solution though. We don't need to end student loan financing though, we just need to allow the students to file for bankruptcy. The price of college would drop in half in no time.

The cost would come down, yes, because the risk would elevate, resulting in loan rates at credit card levels of interest (a good thing). But I have a big problem with letting shitheads who blew a ton of money on stupid decisions leading to worthless degrees, four years of partying and learning how to be Antifa members off the hook. Let their boomer parents pay for it out of their social security money and 401k funds. Sell the fucking house and move into a trailer if they have to - not our choices, not our problem. No undeserved bankruptcy relief, full stop.

These fools have no tangible assets to repossess yet they want to walk away from the obligations that paid for it? Fuck that. Solutions have to be made going forward, not looking back and rewarding a bunch of mostly cucked bugmen and fat purple haired feminists who won't show a shred of gratitude anyway.

(08-30-2018 06:33 PM)Enoch Wrote:  

(08-30-2018 04:28 PM)Parras Wrote:  

I find it amazing that virtually all of the European countries have tuition-free college while American students drown heavily in debt, which ties them to their parents basement and can't buy a house, a car because they are tied paying college debt.


The good news is that the majority of Americans want tuition-free college.

According to polls, 63% of Americans want tuition-free college.

https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktake...ege-states


This is the way forward.

This is a popular leftist talking point.

Only the top 20% of students go to what we understand as college. The nation invests in its smartest people.

An equivalent would be having to get a 1300/1600 on your SAT to attend free university in the U.S.

I had a conversation with someone wondering why the US doesn't have a similarly tiered system as many European countries do (or did, last I looked) There, you score above a certain point, go here, score lower but have that ability then go over there, etc. In other words, they route youth at every stage of education based on their demonstrated abilities. Seems logical to do that in the US, she said.

Then I explained to her how long that system would stay honest the minute the socioeconomic mix of the objectively selected students did not match with the political ambitions:

"Hm, uh-oh - not enough from group X over here; too many of group Y over there - yikes, can't have that. Reshuffle the deck until we get the right result!" The program would be doomed from the start and utterly worthless once revamped with affirmative action approaches. Nowadays in America, everybody gets a trophy.

She was a bit stunned, but got it.

[KMK]

(08-30-2018 06:33 PM)Enoch Wrote:  

(08-30-2018 04:28 PM)Parras Wrote:  

I find it amazing that virtually all of the European countries have tuition-free college while American students drown heavily in debt, which ties them to their parents basement and can't buy a house, a car because they are tied paying college debt.


The good news is that the majority of Americans want tuition-free college.

According to polls, 63% of Americans want tuition-free college.

https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktake...ege-states


This is the way forward.

This is a popular leftist talking point.

Only the top 20% of students go to what we understand as college. The nation invests in its smartest people.

An equivalent would be having to get a 1300/1600 on your SAT to attend free university in the U.S.

It's not that different in the US. You apply to a university and the further ahead you are from the bare minimum admission criteria, the more free ride money they give you. With the grades and test scores I had, my options were fringe top 50 university with almost everything paid for by grants (not loans), or something in the 10-40 range with a shitload of loan debt. My parents wanted me to go to the most prestigious university possible but without them paying for anything... I chose the fringe top 50 free ride. Jimmies were rustled.

Europe strictly forbids mediocre kids from attending a high tier university.

USA allows mediocre kids to attend a high tier university, but they have to take on backbreaking debt to do it, or have rich parents.

That's the only real difference.

Appealing to that unwarranted self importance, temporarily embarrassed millionaire mindset is a cornerstone of american culture, for better or for worse.

[Dalaran1991]

^I highly doubt that the stratified system in Europe is better. Take France for example, either you pay to go to a business school in the Anglo-Saxon model, or you go to college. The elite system called the Grande Ecoles requires 2 years of preparatory classes and passing a rigorous systems of tests, but in essence it's just a glorified and over-complicated systems of SAT scores.

In terms of thinking the Grandes Ecoles simply lock you into a circle of mental masturbation very similar to US academia, and act as recruiting grounds for the political elites.

I guess the upsides of this system is that you are guaranteed a good paying job, most of the time working for the state, and you get paid for going to school instead of taking out loans. However, I don't see how this is difference compared to the merit-based scholarship in the USA. I went to one of the top 30 liberal arts college that costs 60k per year and I got a full ride. Coupled with working as tutor on campus I have more than enough pocket $, and lots of my brighter classmates are the same. In the end we all finished college with a positive bank balance.

Both systems privileges its elite students, the US system just punishes the middle/lower class more by selling a dream that never existed and creating a debt scheme that is not sustainable in the long run.

[Leonard D Neubache]

Remove degrees for every job that can be learned doing said job from the ground up.

Boot camp for a soldier but a 3 year degree for a nurse?

GTFO.

[[email protected]]

(08-30-2018 05:39 PM)DannyAlberta Wrote:  

This won't be a popular opinion, but I am very much against large-scale or mass student loan amnesty. While I do have sympathy for young people hoodwinked by government, the education Ponzi industry and in many cases their own parents, mass debt forgiveness just absolves everyone of any and all personal responsibility.

In fact it's worse. It outsources someone's irresponsibility to responsible tax payers (and make no mistake, it's going to be tax payers told to pick up this tab).

The moral hazard it will create is nothing to sneer at either. Ask yourself whether large scale debt forgiveness will increase or decrease the incessant demands for "free" stuff (given the meaning of free in the early 21st Century means luxurious stuff that is "free" to the people who get it, but expensive as hell to those who must pay for it)?

No one FORCED the loans to be taken out, especially for useless degrees. Forgiveness should be limited. They should all pay much, if not most, of it back.

Amnesty? Forgiveness? People should be able to declare bankruptcy on anything including student loans full stop.

The real moral hazard is in the colleges that keep raising tuition every year because they know the loans are government backed. Even if you don't pay them, the tax payer picks up the bill and/or the bank simply prints money to pay the loan - the bank literally cannot lose.

I would think a person from Canada would be red pilled to the fact that the majority of your own citizens are university educated yet live financially destitute lives, barely making enough to pay their bills. The job market over there cannot sustain droves of graduates that are pumped out each year.

"Free" education might work if only the top 1-3% were allowed in based on actual academic merit. Bankruptcy protection for student loans would lead to loans given only to best students most likely to complete their degree and get a well paying job after graduating. It would get rid of all the woman's studies and basket weaving degrees and force people to not look at college as somewhere to party after highschool. If universities have to lower tuition or compete for prospective students I can't say that's a bad thing and much preferable to the insanity we have today.

[Transsimian]

(08-31-2018 08:13 AM)Leonard D Neubache Wrote:  

Remove degrees for every job that can be learned doing said job from the ground up.
Boot camp for a soldier but a 3 year degree for a nurse?

To paraphrase Tolstoy:
Living enemies are all alike; every dying enemy is dying in its own way.

Back to education;
Feminists like to drone on about how student loan debt is sexist, but they are right, woman go to university more, and spend less time working.

When a woman is married to her student debt, very few men could afford to start a family with her. Thus, getting spiraling fees and university bureaucracy under control is a decent idea, no matter your ideological beliefs.

Though how significant this is, I don't know. Scotland has free uni but England has heavy fees, but we get married two years later than the English.

[DannyAlberta]

^ Like I said. It wasn't going to be a popular opinion.

I don't much care. I was $20k into it when I graduated and I paid it all back. The only difference between me and others who are destitute is that I chose a degree and career path that wasn't useless. I was responsible, why shouldn't Millennials be?

Like I said, I have sympathy for these people who can't get ahead of their loans. Everyone is told to go to college regardless of abilities (it used to be for the intellectually elite, now it's for anyone who can get a loan). People are told to "follow your heart and the money will come in" which is utter bullshit. The government guarantees are inflating tuition prices, for decades in the US (and now in Canada as well - we are about 10 years behind).

But at the end of the day, no one put a gun to these people's heads and said "either borrow this money or I'll shoot you." No one forced them not to research how useful their degree would be or do some cost benefit analysis on how much they were borrowing versus how much they could expect in an occupation. No one forced them to do an easy degree that was tit-useless in the job-world. Now they want a bail-out. I dissent from that.

Part of being red-pilled is looking straight at uncomfortable truths, even if they screw you over. Most of the forum has been screwed over by the true nature of women before they figured out what was going on. This is the true nature of the government-backed, education Ponzi scheme. Some people are going to be worse off than others.

They should pay most of it back.

[ChicagoFire]

^^
I don't agree but can understand what you're saying. Who cares if it's unpopular? Pretty much bailing people out causes a moral hazard and will continue this trend of people asking for more free stuff. Yes, lazy people will use the "muh reparation" argument, women will want legal abortions to continue riding the carousel, etc etc. And while we're on moral hazards then what about the banking industry playing roulette with the economy and getting bail outs? Is that any different than this scenario? Maybe the banking industry should lead by example and pay the taxpayers back. I can understand and identify with this moral hazard angle. I still stand by my opinion that it's society's fault for badgering people at a young age that college is the only path even though some people are better off digging ditches. The 1960s are long over and going to college isn't something the elite do.

It's an absolute lie to correlate college with making more money than a high school graduate (why do some people in the oil sands make significantly more money than some college grads?). The government should stop being so insistent on everyone having the right to go to college and should stop getting into the loan business. You have asserted taxpayers will bail everyone out and while universities should bear the brunt I'm afraid taxpayers will be the ones to bail everybody out. Student loan reform will be a main talking point once our politicians get back in touch with reality. No, I don't want to see any Republicans or Democrats have a bite at McDonalds. Very boring and over done!

Actually just reading what Trump said about giving felons a chance, I don't agree but can understand what he's saying. I personally think some people can change but there are some that will bite you one hundred times every time you give them another chance. Is this too different from giving people who were burned by college a second chance?

Edit:
In an ideal world, the MAGA Republicans will win this November and push the issue, framing it as the little guy struggling fighting the banks and university. Student loan reform is passed and the universities will pay for it come hell or high water. Declare bankruptcy, sell your buildings off to Trump's federal government, I don't care last thing I want to see is more indoctrinated liberals that want to subvert America. Trump signs it off and the Democrats, media, higher education, cuckservatives, etc will be bent out of shape and furious. Watch as a new generation turns America First and watch when the Democrats continue to lose, wondering why "moderate" corporatist policies don't work. The losers will be higher education (not taxpayers) and rightfully so. The opportunity is here anybody with political connections that want to expand their power is a fool for not pressing this issue. Don't pussyfoot and get your hands dirty.

I'm not paying my student loans period, whether or not this scenario comes into fruition.

[SlickyBoy]

(08-31-2018 09:24 AM)[email protected] Wrote:  

(08-30-2018 05:39 PM)DannyAlberta Wrote:  

This won't be a popular opinion, but I am very much against large-scale or mass student loan amnesty. While I do have sympathy for young people hoodwinked by government, the education Ponzi industry and in many cases their own parents, mass debt forgiveness just absolves everyone of any and all personal responsibility.

In fact it's worse. It outsources someone's irresponsibility to responsible tax payers (and make no mistake, it's going to be tax payers told to pick up this tab).

The moral hazard it will create is nothing to sneer at either. Ask yourself whether large scale debt forgiveness will increase or decrease the incessant demands for "free" stuff (given the meaning of free in the early 21st Century means luxurious stuff that is "free" to the people who get it, but expensive as hell to those who must pay for it)?

No one FORCED the loans to be taken out, especially for useless degrees. Forgiveness should be limited. They should all pay much, if not most, of it back.

Amnesty? Forgiveness? People should be able to declare bankruptcy on anything including student loans full stop.

The real moral hazard is in the colleges that keep raising tuition every year because they know the loans are government backed. Even if you don't pay them, the tax payer picks up the bill and/or the bank simply prints money to pay the loan - the bank literally cannot lose.

I would think a person from Canada would be red pilled to the fact that the majority of your own citizens are university educated yet live financially destitute lives, barely making enough to pay their bills. The job market over there cannot sustain droves of graduates that are pumped out each year.

"Free" education might work if only the top 1-3% were allowed in based on actual academic merit. Bankruptcy protection for student loans would lead to loans given only to best students most likely to complete their degree and get a well paying job after graduating. It would get rid of all the woman's studies and basket weaving degrees and force people to not look at college as somewhere to party after highschool. If universities have to lower tuition or compete for prospective students I can't say that's a bad thing and much preferable to the insanity we have today.

I think the person in Canada who is actually red pilled realizes that loan "amnesty" for indebted students means pretty much another windfall for Antifa asshats with degrees in baboon husbandry. The rest of them who chose wisely or didn't bother with college at all are usually employed in some capacity. So fuck that.

As to merit, the American system gets more twisted when you get to law school. There, they have so many schools outside of the top ten desperate for butts in seats (especially minority numbers) that they will actually cut tuition for the best applicants, but not the ones barely able to get in.

As a consequence, the least qualified students pay full price, taking out the most debt for little opportunity, creating something called the reverse Robin Hood syndrome.

Quote:

...He also resorts to a clever (and devastating)
characterization, one that will resonate for the politics of many legal
educators: “If Robin Hood took from the rich and gave to the poor,
law school often does the reverse. It gives scholarships to top
students, who have employment opportunities at firms that pay top
salaries, funded by full-paying, lower-ranked students, whose
employment will often be at organizations paying more modest
salaries.”"

I have a tad more sympathy for the black students who financed the privilege of being used as props for white people under the ruse of job training - but even then, they are adults. They heard what they wanted to hear and made a choice.

Most middling law graduates, however, resemble the room-temperature IQ Bernie Bro who blew his job interview at Starbucks then took out a pile of debt to be a (liberal) lawyer. Of course now they expect loan amnesty. They can go fuck themselves.