[Jetset]

(05-12-2018 09:56 AM)SlickyBoy Wrote:  

Sure, if you like boomer fatties. Harley is doing absolutely terribly with the youth market and women are no exception. It's no coincidence most of them are ridden by guys who look like retired Santa Clauses. I had a Harley Softail in the late-2000s. Went to one bike event and at 38 years old I was one of the youngest guys there. Then I saw the table selling Viagra next to the one hawking T shirts. Born to be wild... my ass.

If you're in the U.S. and like classic cruiser styling without Harley prices and engineering, you might visit your local Victory dealer.

http://www.victorymotorcycles.com/en-us/cruisers

[SlickyBoy]

I agree - you can pick up a decent Honda Shadow used for less than five grand which is functionally as good or better a bike than any hog. But Harley people tend to be Harley snobs, though in America that's a dying breed - literally. They've been aware of this trend for a while, and it continues. In 1990, the average Harley buyer was a 39 year old white guy. Ten years later, it was a 49 year old white guy. They didn't give a shit because well, Harley Fucking Davidson, U-S-A! blah blah blah. Then the financial crunch hit and $20k for a bike and overpriced accessories seemed pretty stupid. They still haven't learned, but they did outsource more, built some overseas factories, even hired H1B workers for the IT department in their "all American" company. They essentially papered over the trend.

Harley still trades off of the mystique a bit better overseas, but therein lies their marketing problem - how to keep selling that image while moving to something American guys under 50 might actually relate to. From what that article suggested, it's going to get experimental:

Quote:

The company also is working to expand its appeal to women, minorities, young adults and city dwellers.

As part of that effort, Harley-Davidson said it is on target to launch its first electric motorcycle within 18 months. Tuesday, the company said it would invest more aggressively in developing electric-biking technology.

A complete and utter departure from all things Harley - a major step into the abyss, but they've had it coming. Other manufacturers are reacting too, hoping they can get millennials interested in something other than their phones.

[Leonard D Neubache]

I think if I was going to sink a bunch of money into a cruiser and didn't want the Harley drama then I'd just buy a used Triumph rocket 3.

That bike is just fucking ridiculous in all the right ways.

[Repo]

(05-13-2018 10:55 AM)Leonard D Neubache Wrote:  

I think if I was going to sink a bunch of money into a cruiser and didn't want the Harley drama then I'd just buy a used Triumph rocket 3.

That bike is just fucking ridiculous in all the right ways.

[DJ-Matt]

(05-12-2018 09:56 AM)SlickyBoy Wrote:  

- Everybody thinks owning a Jeep (Rubicon, Wrangler, old CJ, etc - not the Cherokee/SUV) is great until they actually own one. Oh, and for some reason lately they are popular with gay men too, FWIW. Ditto for Minis.

OK I gotta call this out, Jeeps are not popular with fags at all. You have them mixed up with Subarus for carpet-munchers and VWs for homos and soyfags.

There are a few things to keep in mind with Wranglers however:

- Noise: wind at highway speed is LOUD, I've never owned a hard-top one but maybe its a little better. You won't want to drive it for an 8 hour road trip very often (although I have done it when it was my only car).

- Power: DO NOT BUY a pre-2003 4 cylinder, the 2.5L that Chrysler inherited from AMC is garbage. A 125 HP engine will not be able to push this thing at highway speeds. An automatic with the 2.5L? Hope you enjoy 40 mph. On the other hand, after 2003 Chrysler put in their powertech 2.4L from the PT cruisers and it works fantastic. I have no problem getting up to 80 mph on the freeway. Gas mileage with the 2.4L is up to 28 MPG in town depending on how you drive. The other Wranglers get sub 20 mileage.

- Audio: Your aftermarket stereo WILL be stolen, keep it factory! You can buy the super premium radio out of a Rubicon off eBay or a junkyard for next to nothing. Also make sure to get those fancy Rubicon factory speakers for the front too, you want it loud to hear over the road noise! Because you're limited to the speaker size in the front, all the aftermarket ones that fit suck. For the soundbar they take the standard round size so just put something nice in. USA SPEC makes boxes that will let you connect either an iPhone or line-input for Android, they're pretty cheap on eBay.

- Soft top: It does need to be replaced fairly often, I did go about 3 years once with a Bestop brand one, but the zippers are generally what goes first. This will run you at least $150 for the cheapest ones.

[ShotgunUppercuts]

If you really want a dope bike check out Confederate motorcycles.

It’ll cost ya a pretty (several) pennies though.

[HankMoody]

I actually wanted a Jeep Wrangler but couldn't justify the pricetag. Anything I found that was decent cost at minimum $10k. They're awesome cars, though. My Dodge Ram gets the job done. Women love it. Plus, if you put a construction hat in your dash, you can pretty much park outrageously and no one says anything about it. I park on sidewalks, no parking zones, you name it. I've only gotten towed once (that sucked). I'm a big fan of Wranglers. They hold their value, which in my opinion, is big. You can sell a Wrangler with 177 miles. Big detriment? I hate driving stick, mostly because I'm on my phone a lot. My GF drives a stick. I like to talk on the phone while I'm driving.

Women also love the Benz but it has the same issues with the Wrangler -- it's easy to break into and steal shit. During the winter it's got a hard top, but that isn't fun to drive. The engine is loud as fuck, so your stereo has to be on point. If you're driving anything with a droptop, you need a good stereo but it's also easy to steal. If you live in a city like me, no bueno.

I've said this before in the thread, but my favorite car I've ever owned was the 2000 Land Rover Discovery II. I raised the tires and put a snorkel on. I sealed the engine. The car's estimated value was $2500. People thought it was a $50k car after I put a good stereo system in it. For some reason, it never got fucked with. No one ever broke into it.

In any case, I hope my point came across. You can get a lot of girls with cheap, fun cars. Get a giant truck, muscle car, or a convertible. They can be bought on the cheap. I don't see the point in buying really expensive cars, but your milage may vary.

[Simeon_Strangelight]

(05-14-2018 02:10 AM)HankMoody Wrote:  

I actually wanted a Jeep Wrangler but couldn't justify the pricetag. Anything I found that was decent cost at minimum $10k. They're awesome cars, though. My Dodge Ram gets the job done. Women love it. Plus, if you put a construction hat in your dash, you can pretty much park outrageously and no one says anything about it. I park on sidewalks, no parking zones, you name it. I've only gotten towed once (that sucked). I'm a big fan of Wranglers. They hold their value, which in my opinion, is big. You can sell a Wrangler with 177 miles. Big detriment? I hate driving stick, mostly because I'm on my phone a lot. My GF drives a stick. I like to talk on the phone while I'm driving.

Women also love the Benz but it has the same issues with the Wrangler -- it's easy to break into and steal shit. During the winter it's got a hard top, but that isn't fun to drive. The engine is loud as fuck, so your stereo has to be on point. If you're driving anything with a droptop, you need a good stereo but it's also easy to steal. If you live in a city like me, no bueno.

I've said this before in the thread, but my favorite car I've ever owned was the 2000 Land Rover Discovery II. I raised the tires and put a snorkel on. I sealed the engine. The car's estimated value was $2500. People thought it was a $50k car after I put a good stereo system in it. For some reason, it never got fucked with. No one ever broke into it.

In any case, I hope my point came across. You can get a lot of girls with cheap, fun cars. Get a giant truck, muscle car, or a convertible. They can be bought on the cheap. I don't see the point in buying really expensive cars, but your milage may vary.

It's sad that you have to factor in crime in your car purchases. I have friends in Philadelphia and they are the most liberal ones denying the very reality they are sitting in.

[HankMoody]

(05-14-2018 02:14 AM)Zelcorpion Wrote:  

(05-14-2018 02:10 AM)HankMoody Wrote:  

I actually wanted a Jeep Wrangler but couldn't justify the pricetag. Anything I found that was decent cost at minimum $10k. They're awesome cars, though. My Dodge Ram gets the job done. Women love it. Plus, if you put a construction hat in your dash, you can pretty much park outrageously and no one says anything about it. I park on sidewalks, no parking zones, you name it. I've only gotten towed once (that sucked). I'm a big fan of Wranglers. They hold their value, which in my opinion, is big. You can sell a Wrangler with 177 miles. Big detriment? I hate driving stick, mostly because I'm on my phone a lot. My GF drives a stick. I like to talk on the phone while I'm driving.

Women also love the Benz but it has the same issues with the Wrangler -- it's easy to break into and steal shit. During the winter it's got a hard top, but that isn't fun to drive. The engine is loud as fuck, so your stereo has to be on point. If you're driving anything with a droptop, you need a good stereo but it's also easy to steal. If you live in a city like me, no bueno.

I've said this before in the thread, but my favorite car I've ever owned was the 2000 Land Rover Discovery II. I raised the tires and put a snorkel on. I sealed the engine. The car's estimated value was $2500. People thought it was a $50k car after I put a good stereo system in it. For some reason, it never got fucked with. No one ever broke into it.

In any case, I hope my point came across. You can get a lot of girls with cheap, fun cars. Get a giant truck, muscle car, or a convertible. They can be bought on the cheap. I don't see the point in buying really expensive cars, but your milage may vary.

It's sad that you have to factor in crime in your car purchases. I have friends in Philadelphia and they are the most liberal ones denying the very reality they are sitting in.

Look at who are DAs are / were.

It sucks.

Yes, people are going to cut my vinyl tops, and they're going to steal my stereo system.

I've had a bunch of random shit stolen -- down to a giant bag of onions. Yes, someone broke into my car to steal a gigantic bag of onions that I think cost me $10. They stole a giant ass bag of onions out of my car. Yeah, someone stole my onions.... (sob, sob) I am now onion poor.

Guess I'll have to cook with kelp? Other stuff?

That's city life.

I'd post the picture of my Honda Civiic on soda crates, all wheels stolen (my rims were not even chrome), but I don't need anyone else emailing my girlfriend screenshots of my posts this week.

The picture is really funny, though.

[sterling_archer]

Since we got here talk about both cars and motorcyvles, just a quick question.

When you get a license for driving a car in the USA, do you have any limitations, i.e. "you cannot drive anything over so and so weight"? Also, how does the license for motorcycles work, can you drive every motorcycle you want, no matter how much engine displacement it has?

[Kona]

(05-13-2018 12:44 PM)DJ-Matt Wrote:  

(05-12-2018 09:56 AM)SlickyBoy Wrote:  

- Everybody thinks owning a Jeep (Rubicon, Wrangler, old CJ, etc - not the Cherokee/SUV) is great until they actually own one. Oh, and for some reason lately they are popular with gay men too, FWIW. Ditto for Minis.

OK I gotta call this out, Jeeps are not popular with fags at all. You have them mixed up with Subarus for carpet-munchers and VWs for homos and soyfags.

Thwy are the 3rd most lesbian car, and the fourth most gay.

https://roygbiv.jezebel.com/these-are-th...1569142181

No mention on that list of Range or Land Rovers, the gayest cars of all, so it may be innacurate.

Aloha!

[YoungBlade]

Any euros here have the Volkswagen Amarok? If so, how well does it perform?

[pargan]

Don't like the look of the Amarok. If anyone is in the market for a new truck might as well get the brand that holds the value the best which will be the new Jeep truck, it looks sick to. If Jeeps are pussy magnets and trucks are pussy magnets just imagine what a Jeep truck will be like. A big complain for wranglers is the power and since this is a truck it will most likely be much more powerful then the wrangler. Will most likely be the most versatile all around vehicle. It's honestly one of the best upcoming vehicles in my opinion.

Will look something like this

[ShotgunUppercuts]

Dont count out a international scout,K5 Blazer (the real one) and the Ford bronco that was made in the 70s .prices seem to be rising for them in mint condition so id look for one that’s at least drivable and take it from there.

[kaotic]

(05-13-2018 09:50 AM)SlickyBoy Wrote:  

I agree - you can pick up a decent Honda Shadow used for less than five grand which is functionally as good or better a bike than any hog. But Harley people tend to be Harley snobs, though in America that's a dying breed - literally. They've been aware of this trend for a while, and it continues. In 1990, the average Harley buyer was a 39 year old white guy. Ten years later, it was a 49 year old white guy. They didn't give a shit because well, Harley Fucking Davidson, U-S-A! blah blah blah. Then the financial crunch hit and $20k for a bike and overpriced accessories seemed pretty stupid. They still haven't learned, but they did outsource more, built some overseas factories, even hired H1B workers for the IT department in their "all American" company. They essentially papered over the trend.

Harley still trades off of the mystique a bit better overseas, but therein lies their marketing problem - how to keep selling that image while moving to something American guys under 50 might actually relate to. From what that article suggested, it's going to get experimental:

Quote:

The company also is working to expand its appeal to women, minorities, young adults and city dwellers.

As part of that effort, Harley-Davidson said it is on target to launch its first electric motorcycle within 18 months. Tuesday, the company said it would invest more aggressively in developing electric-biking technology.

A complete and utter departure from all things Harley - a major step into the abyss, but they've had it coming. Other manufacturers are reacting too, hoping they can get millennials interested in something other than their phones.

Honda Shadow? Laughable - 750CC of pure soy

We used those for our motorcycle classes - they're tiny.

I'm definitely a Harley snob - used to be a Dynaholic but now apart of bagger nation.

Here in Southern California the bike culture is extremely different.

There's annual shows with guys in late 20's, mid 30's that are getting Harley's especially dyna's (more on Dyna's later).

It's a mix of kids who were punk rockers/skaters/dirtbike kids that have money buying up Dynas.

The kids around here see non Harley's as "Charlies" and are loyal to the Harley brand and aftermarket parts.

Born Free, Hippie Killer, Rolling Thunder, Laughlin River Run, to name a few are filled with a younger generation of bikers.

Now back to your point, YES absolutely Harley has an image, marketing, manufacturing problem.

They also have another problem, they killed the Dyna line in 2017 and made them into lame ass softails (mono shock).

I don't think Harley is dead, the counter culture is strong and growing here in SoCal - but Harley does need to get its head out of it's ass.

As far as electric, that's downright abhorrent.

I've had 3 Harleys, I don't plan on changing brands anytime soon, but I'm smart enough to get ripped off by OEM bullshit.

[ShotgunUppercuts]

What do you guys think of MotoGuzzi bikes?

[PapayaTapper]

(05-14-2018 04:56 AM)Kona Wrote:  

(05-13-2018 12:44 PM)DJ-Matt Wrote:  

(05-12-2018 09:56 AM)SlickyBoy Wrote:  

- Everybody thinks owning a Jeep (Rubicon, Wrangler, old CJ, etc - not the Cherokee/SUV) is great until they actually own one. Oh, and for some reason lately they are popular with gay men too, FWIW. Ditto for Minis.

OK I gotta call this out, Jeeps are not popular with fags at all. You have them mixed up with Subarus for carpet-munchers and VWs for homos and soyfags.

Thwy are the 3rd most lesbian car, and the fourth most gay.

https://roygbiv.jezebel.com/these-are-th...1569142181

No mention on that list of Range or Land Rovers, the gayest cars of all, so it may be innacurate.

Aloha!

Its true cock gobblers love Jeeps.

Before all the butt burglars moved from south Laguna Beach to Palm Springs there were lots Jeeps with rainbow flags running around down there. You couldnt swing a dead cat around there without hitting a poof in Jeep

Maybe since the Wrangler was originally a military vehicle its like the butch member of the Village People of cars

[SlickyBoy]

(05-14-2018 02:04 PM)kaotic Wrote:  

Honda Shadow? Laughable - 750CC of pure soy

We used those for our motorcycle classes - they're tiny.

I'm definitely a Harley snob - used to be a Dynaholic but now apart of bagger nation.

Here in Southern California the bike culture is extremely different.

There's annual shows with guys in late 20's, mid 30's that are getting Harley's especially dyna's (more on Dyna's later).

It's a mix of kids who were punk rockers/skaters/dirtbike kids that have money buying up Dynas.

The kids around here see non Harley's as "Charlies" and are loyal to the Harley brand and aftermarket parts.

Born Free, Hippie Killer, Rolling Thunder, Laughlin River Run, to name a few are filled with a younger generation of bikers.

Now back to your point, YES absolutely Harley has an image, marketing, manufacturing problem.

They also have another problem, they killed the Dyna line in 2017 and made them into lame ass softails (mono shock).

I don't think Harley is dead, the counter culture is strong and growing here in SoCal - but Harley does need to get its head out of it's ass.

As far as electric, that's downright abhorrent.

I've had 3 Harleys, I don't plan on changing brands anytime soon, but I'm smart enough to get ripped off by OEM bullshit.

Are you sure? All the rider ed classes I've seen use Rebels - that's a bicycle, for chrissakes. But they make the Shadow up to 800cc and at one point had 1100cc bikes that looked just like a Harley - and I know that's gotta sting!



If part of the point is to impress women with the "born to be wild" approach, do you really think your average *young* woman is going to know or care about the difference?

The Honda's actually got more power anyway - that's why Harley promotions never shut up about the torque because frankly the horsepower sucks for such big engines (the air cooled variety - not the V-rod which average people still don't associate with "Harley"). But I get your point - SoCal is at least for now a different animal when it comes to bikes. How much that changes with the age & racial demographics remains to be seen.

Softails were not selling well ever since the late 2000s, but cancelling the Dyna was definitely a major move - I hope they thought that one through.

(05-14-2018 04:10 PM)ShotgunUppercuts Wrote:  

What do you guys think of MotoGuzzi bikes?

I love em, but they ain't cheap either. Still great to see them making bikes though.

(05-14-2018 05:20 PM)PapayaTapper Wrote:  

(05-14-2018 04:56 AM)Kona Wrote:  

(05-13-2018 12:44 PM)DJ-Matt Wrote:  

(05-12-2018 09:56 AM)SlickyBoy Wrote:  

- Everybody thinks owning a Jeep (Rubicon, Wrangler, old CJ, etc - not the Cherokee/SUV) is great until they actually own one. Oh, and for some reason lately they are popular with gay men too, FWIW. Ditto for Minis.

OK I gotta call this out, Jeeps are not popular with fags at all. You have them mixed up with Subarus for carpet-munchers and VWs for homos and soyfags.

Thwy are the 3rd most lesbian car, and the fourth most gay.

https://roygbiv.jezebel.com/these-are-th...1569142181

No mention on that list of Range or Land Rovers, the gayest cars of all, so it may be innacurate.

Aloha!

Its true cock gobblers love Jeeps.

Before all the butt burglars moved from south Laguna Beach to Palm Springs there were lots Jeeps with rainbow flags running around down there. You couldnt swing a dead cat around there without hitting a poof in Jeep

Maybe since the Wrangler was originally a military vehicle its like the butch member of the Village People of cars

Thank you! BTW, that girl I was dating with the Wrangler, sold it to a middle aged lesbian.

[SlickyBoy]

(05-14-2018 04:33 AM)sterling_archer Wrote:  

Since we got here talk about both cars and motorcyvles, just a quick question.

When you get a license for driving a car in the USA, do you have any limitations, i.e. "you cannot drive anything over so and so weight"? Also, how does the license for motorcycles work, can you drive every motorcycle you want, no matter how much engine displacement it has?

Short answer - no. There are learners permits for when you first start out around age 16 but usually nothing to do with the size of the bike. Some states allow you to ride really tiny bikes (mopeds less than 50cc) without a license. They are popular with drunks who lost their license

[Tex Cruise]

(05-14-2018 04:56 AM)Kona Wrote:  

...Land Rovers, the gayest cars of all, so it may be innacurate.

Aloha!

Gay?

Nobody's called mine gay before.

[Saweeep]

Not sure what the situation is across the World, but those old Landies (Kona is being very naughty calling them gay) are almost impossible to prevent being stolen here in the UK. It's an epidemic.

Dunno why you'd want one unless you live on a farm though.


On topic, I've got a German SUV and a Classic Bentley; I wouldn't even bring the old gal out of the garage for a woman but I suspect it's not sporty enough to be anything other than a status symbol to them really.

Young bitches love German 4x4s...as Jay-Z said...hotel on wheels.

[HankMoody]

It's not letting me embed these pictures, but this was my Disco:

https://ibb.co/iQyGOy

https://ibb.co/hA7J3y

https://ibb.co/nGgswJ

https://ibb.co/g0aubJ

https://ibb.co/ge4LGJ

No one ever called my Land Rover Discovery II gay.

It was a beast of off-roading and an adventure machine. You could drive this thing to hell and back, go through giant puddles, on highways, sandpits, in snow, through mountains, you name it. Drive anywhere; do fun stuff. Discovery II's are the shit. I'm not into Ranger Rovers or anything "luxury." If you seal the engine on a Disco II, you can drive that thing into the ground (they have overheating problems, and issues with the head gaskets. Easy fixes.)

Mine only died after being in a car accident that nearly killed me.

How someone misses a giant fucking green Land Rover in a city, with a fucking snorkel, I will never know, yet I digress...

What's funny is I stored all my camping gear in the back. We're talking like $5k worth of tents, panchos, sleeping bags, ratchet straps, headlamps, MREs, lifejackets, fire starter, axes, flashlights, water bottles, camelbaks, tarps, fishing poles, a portable grill, batteries, Kindle for good measure, construction speaker, and several pairs of boots (I own more pairs of boots than any straight man should. Don't judge me.) My camping gear is worth more than the car was.

A homeless person could live off my gear for at least a month. Even longer if they could find food.

Yet no one ever broke into it. Ever.

My Honda Civic? Broken into more times than I can count. My radio stolen. My tires stolen. My onions stolen.

I bought my Civic for $15k, too. It was purchased when I first bought it -- I remember I picked up a client the first week of owning it, and he was like "Wow, this isn't a car you drive, this is a car that drives you..." After a few years of city living, you would have thought I picked it up for $500 at a junk yard. I was also stuck paying off the loan on it, even after it was basically no longer drivable. That sucked.

The point of the Rover came down to lifestyle. I could hop into my car on any given day and just drive into the woods, or wherever. No one ever broke into it, vandalized it, etc. And women loved it. All it took was some basic improvements and a nice stereo system. People thought it was a $50k car.

I think Land Rover Discoveries are great cars if you're into an active lifestyle. Cheap, too. Just gotta do some basic improvements.

[Saweeep]

The Disco may be cool in the US.

In the UK only proper losers drive those 4x4s with snorkels and things to go "green laning" or whatever the fuck it is they do with them.

I suspect most of the time it's just stand around with other weird, social misfits talking about said vehicles.

[MKE-Ed]

(05-14-2018 02:10 AM)HankMoody Wrote:  

I actually wanted a Jeep Wrangler but couldn't justify the pricetag. Anything I found that was decent cost at minimum $10k. They're awesome cars, though. My Dodge Ram gets the job done. Women love it. Plus, if you put a construction hat in your dash, you can pretty much park outrageously and no one says anything about it. I park on sidewalks, no parking zones, you name it. I've only gotten towed once (that sucked). I'm a big fan of Wranglers. They hold their value, which in my opinion, is big. You can sell a Wrangler with 177 miles. Big detriment? I hate driving stick, mostly because I'm on my phone a lot. My GF drives a stick. I like to talk on the phone while I'm driving.

Women also love the Benz but it has the same issues with the Wrangler -- it's easy to break into and steal shit. During the winter it's got a hard top, but that isn't fun to drive. The engine is loud as fuck, so your stereo has to be on point. If you're driving anything with a droptop, you need a good stereo but it's also easy to steal. If you live in a city like me, no bueno.

I've said this before in the thread, but my favorite car I've ever owned was the 2000 Land Rover Discovery II. I raised the tires and put a snorkel on. I sealed the engine. The car's estimated value was $2500. People thought it was a $50k car after I put a good stereo system in it. For some reason, it never got fucked with. No one ever broke into it.

In any case, I hope my point came across. You can get a lot of girls with cheap, fun cars. Get a giant truck, muscle car, or a convertible. They can be bought on the cheap. I don't see the point in buying really expensive cars, but your milage may vary.

One thing that has always impressed me about Jeep Wranglers is that they are a true off road SUV. I was visiting friends down in Puerto Rico eight years ago and we went to a very remote part of the island that had dirt roads up high on a mountain and the Wrangler handled this terrain very easily. It was actually a lot of fun to drive it off road. The Wrangler didn't skip a beat. Most SUVs today are nothing more than glorified station wagons and suburban boulevard cruisers. But like you say, Hank, the Wranglers are getting very expensive, new and used ones.

I looked at a 2018 model at the Chicago auto show and it was very nice. Jeep updated the interior and tuned the ride a little to make it more street friendly. I have a friend that works at a local Jeep dealer and he tells me that the new Wranglers are selling very well. Chicks do like them big time.

[Leonard D Neubache]

(05-14-2018 06:53 PM)Tex Cruise Wrote:  

(05-14-2018 04:56 AM)Kona Wrote:  

...Land Rovers, the gayest cars of all, so it may be innacurate.

Aloha!

Gay?

Nobody's called mine gay before.

At least nobody behind you.

And really, it's the people behind you that you want to send that signal to most strongly.