[Mage]

Too much Orthodox Christian fanboyism here in latest posts. It all comes form ignorance about this church and only romanticized wish to escape e the cucked West and find some mythical "unspoiled, uncucked form of Christianity" somewhere.

Yes orthodox Christianity is nationalistic and less cucked, but there is a problem with it. It is utterly corrupt. Every priest who is left there is a former KGB agent. It is a rupor for Russian state power. And it get's ridiculed all the time for it's priests riding luxury cars and living in extreme wealth, while Russian people are relatively poor. That church has no separate organ from state to think and make decisions anymore. I seriously question it''s ability to insist on upholding any moral truth if the state power changes it's moral stance. For now Putin is with the Church on the same side about gay and feminist question, but what if he changes his mind?

Anyway I would not trust an orthodox priest with a confession, the same way I would trust a Catholic priest, despite Catholics being more cucked. Each remaining Russian Orthodox priest is an informant for the state. There are non-russian orthodox, but their numbers and impact are too small to cause any cultural change and they are under constant pressure from Russian orthodox to recognize the superiority of Moscovian patriatchate.

[Mage]

Many people here say Paganism is dead because there is no authentic way left to worship Odin and Thor and the rest.

This is a Christian-centric view. You want to analyze another faith with the mindset of your old/current one. No wonder you fail.

Odin and Thor and other gods are simply natures forces that need to be recognized. They may be conscious or they may be not, it changes little. There is no need to fallow some old religious rites to the letter, unlike in Abrhamic religions where you must observe the scripture to the letter.

The purpose of rites and ceremonies is to remind ourselves about the powers of nature we are in communion with. The forces of nature are themselves indifferent about the way we actually worship them. Either they are unconscious or they are conscious enough to see trough any form of ritual and recognize our intent. The idea that a God, being a superior intellect, can recognize your prayer only if you do it in a very specific way is ridiculous and is the fruit of the scripture based Abrahamic religions.

The current paganism has no need to be similar to old times paganism. Science has advanced and so has our understanding about nature, so we can actually worship it better and more accurately then our ancestors. The arceological reconstruction of our forebear beliefs is not necessary. It is still valuable to understand the intuitive way our ancestors understood Nature.

Some will question the need for revering nature, because isn't a man after-all the pinnacle of creation/being above all nature destined to rule it? Well that is the main difference between atheism and paganism. While both atheism and paganism only believe in natural and deny supernatural miracles they have different attitudes. Atheism believes that humans can build a new world Utopia disregarding natures principles and following only what seems logical and humanitarian rules. But we all see how these attempts fail. Communism was an atheist utopia but it disregards the human nature and therefore failed. Feminism is is an atheist utopia but it disregards human nature and therefore fails causing suffering to people, hurting both men and women and giving way to Islam without resistance. LGBT is an obvious atheist mental masturbation and is obviously incompatible with human nature and even with general biological Nature.

The funny thing that while atheists love to talk about Evolution and confess their belief in it, they constantly disregard the implications of it being real and think that they can rewrite human instincts and behavior in one day, by a piece of legislation and crate a new utopia.

Paganism is different because it recognizes human nature. Humans need ceremony, ritual and belief to stay moral, they need gender roles, they need natural environment, natural food and natural way of life to stay healthy and happy. Humans cannot escape their nature and hide in their artificial environments for too long without becoming insane. Therefore there is this demand for a more natural way of life, that includes also the spiritual aspect of treating the nature as holy and divine and therefore the thirst for a pagan way of life is growing.

[Enigma]

(04-22-2018 01:21 PM)Raylan Givens Wrote:  

Western Christianity is in it's death throes. Outside of FSSP, SSPX, and a few small sede groups Catholicism (as it is historically understood) only exists in books and the failing memories of those older than 65 or so. Protestantism is utter garbage and always has been. We're talking about 1.5 billion Christians worldwide and hundreds of millions of Christians in the United States. They have to go somewhere. Most will probably just stop going to church altogether, but some will find the draw to real, authentic Christianity irresistible. Very few people in the West have encountered anything other than a shallow, sham, a mockery of the Christian faith.

America would not exist without Protestantism. It was one of the driving forces for the settlers, the revolution, and the original government.

The Orthodox church currently has less fat because their nations have been getting their ass kicked for 600 years straight.

Westerners will just go back to reading the early church fathers, not convert to Eastern Orthodoxy en masse, which is a historically nonsensical prediction.

By the way, China's rapidly growing Christian population is mostly Protestant, so I wouldn't hold your breath on the end of Protestantism.

[sterling_archer]

(04-23-2018 12:47 AM)Mage Wrote:  

Too much Orthodox Christian fanboyism here in latest posts. It all comes form ignorance about this church and only romanticized wish to escape e the cucked West and find some mythical "unspoiled, uncucked form of Christianity" somewhere.

Yes orthodox Christianity is nationalistic and less cucked, but there is a problem with it. It is utterly corrupt. Every priest who is left there is a former KGB agent. It is a rupor for Russian state power. And it get's ridiculed all the time for it's priests riding luxury cars and living in extreme wealth, while Russian people are relatively poor. That church has no separate organ from state to think and make decisions anymore. I seriously question it''s ability to insist on upholding any moral truth if the state power changes it's moral stance. For now Putin is with the Church on the same side about gay and feminist question, but what if he changes his mind?

Anyway I would not trust an orthodox priest with a confession, the same way I would trust a Catholic priest, despite Catholics being more cucked. Each remaining Russian Orthodox priest is an informant for the state. There are non-russian orthodox, but their numbers and impact are too small to cause any cultural change and they are under constant pressure from Russian orthodox to recognize the superiority of Moscovian patriatchate.

I don't have real examples of Russian orthodox church dealings with politics, but I frequently hear about their connection to Russian mob, same like catholic church has connection with Italian mob.

What I do know is example from a country close by, Serbia. Since half my family are orthodox Serbs, I know some things about that church and its dealings in politics/activities.
During the 90s (breakup of Yugoslavia), Serbian orthodox church had an active role in propagating nationalist pretensions of Serbia on Bosnia and Croatia. They were also one of the financiers of Chetnik movement. In Serbia, before first military actions against other countries took place, orthodox priests supposedly blessed the tanks which will later be used. In Serb populated areas in Croatia, they were of course having masses where they indoctrinated Serb population to rebel against their country, Croatia. They did rebel, but true effect of their church can be disputed.

Never the less, that church doesn't shy from politics and war mongering, while constantly shifting allegiance to side they prefer more. For example, they stopped supporting Milosevic at one time, and starting supporting Karadzic, which they deemed more appropriate.

[Simeon_Strangelight]

Mage - your criticism of Christian paths may be somewhat justified, but your view of old European paganism is too rosy.

Most pagans including Romans had human sacrifice. The Romans used to even sacrifice their own soldiers before some battles. In addition almost all pagans saw nothing wrong with slavery. Slavery aside from the ethical viewpoint also holds back science and development since the ruling slave-owning elite is not interested in labor-saving inventions or any kind of wide-ranging progress that could devalue their large slave holdings. Pagans also used to strongly devalue life in general - especially every life that was not theirs.

Jesus and Buddha were saints at least - what the churches later did is different. Paganism evolved out of simple-minded ideas of humanizing forces of nature. Sure - to the intellectual elite they were just mental engrams, but to the simple folk those were humans with a stronger and longer arm to do the same crap.

Christianity will survive despite the constant onslaught, but it is dying in the West, growing somewhat in China. A global conflict with Islam is coming and it will ultimately wipe out Islam, but I doubt that the elite will unite humanity behind a Deus Vult.

[Leonard D Neubache]

The Bible also instructs Christians to sacrifice cattle if I'm not mistaken, so saying "pagans did (x)" is not entirely reasonable because as Mage pointed out Paganism can move with the times just as Christianity has to some extent.

Like muslims have the Koran from which they cannot stray too far, Christians have the Bible from which they cannot stray too far, even when it's teachings lead to self-destruction. The well acknowledged suicide pact of Christianity is unfortunately even reinforced by the belief of suffering in this life in return for eternal paradise in the next. Muslim holy texts at very least provide for the salvation of the adherent in defending Islam to the death. Christianity? Not so much.

If Paganism can be simplified by saying it's simply a respectful worship of observed nature then without texts to confine it then it's endlessly malleable. Maybe back in the day some dude committed suicide on a particular rock and they ended up having a bumper crop that year, and on the basis of their observations they figured "let's make sure some dude dies on this rock every year. It apparently pleases the Gods.

It's not fair to suggest that modern Pagans must therefore become murderers any more than we can reasonably expect every Abrahamic religionist household to burn a calf at the appropriate time of year. Viewed in the long term, unlike Christianity, Paganism is not only more survivable but is functionally unkillable. Any farmer who's ever rejoiced at receiving much needed rain and offered thanks to the skies is engaging is a simplistic form of Paganism unless I'm somehow mistaken. Any farmer who decides for some ridiculous reason to wear the same hat he wore that day when he needs rain in the future is walking even further down that path.

When you live close to nature Paganism makes a shitload more sense than Christianity, but it was doomed to be persecuted into slumber because it doesn't provide for a centralised subordination to a militant hierarchy. All good and well for that hierarchy when it was militant but now it's just a plum for the next militant order to pluck from the tree.

[Simeon_Strangelight]

All spiritual paths and religions have to be centralized and hierarchic - otherwise they won't survive in a unified way.

One druid is an exalted spiritual member who just does some rituals while preaching sensible stuff, while the other straps a baby to a tree to be devoured by animals once every 10 years, because the harvest was great one year after such a baby died in the woods, so this is how it's going to be. In addition you have the usual psychopaths who make up shit as they go along - one druid with blood-lust is enough to have sacrificial cats established every Sunday.

The problem is of course that highly spiritual founders and priests seldom care about strong hierarchies - Assisi never did and his students picked up that task. The same was true before widespread written texts and "certified" teachers going around.

Militant hierarchy or not - this order is unfortunately necessary for any kind of organization - ideally when the head honcho is a mix between saint and genius.

[Leonard D Neubache]

Correct me if I'm wrong but Paganism wasn't centralist. The equivalent of the regional clergy might have met on a few occasions, likely not ranging more than a day or two from home, but there was no guy in a distant land acting as some kind of a Pagan pope to whom tithing flowed inward and orders flowed out.

[Mage]

(04-23-2018 03:32 AM)Zelcorpion Wrote:  

Mage - your criticism of Christian paths may be somewhat justified, but your view of old European paganism is too rosy.

Most pagans including Romans had human sacrifice. The Romans used to even sacrifice their own soldiers before some battles. In addition almost all pagans saw nothing wrong with slavery. Slavery aside from the ethical viewpoint also holds back science and development since the ruling slave-owning elite is not interested in labor-saving inventions or any kind of wide-ranging progress that could devalue their large slave holdings. Pagans also used to strongly devalue life in general - especially every life that was not theirs.

Jesus and Buddha were saints at least - what the churches later did is different. Paganism evolved out of simple-minded ideas of humanizing forces of nature. Sure - to the intellectual elite they were just mental engrams, but to the simple folk those were humans with a stronger and longer arm to do the same crap.

Christianity will survive despite the constant onslaught, but it is dying in the West, growing somewhat in China. A global conflict with Islam is coming and it will ultimately wipe out Islam, but I doubt that the elite will unite humanity behind a Deus Vult.

As I said in my previous post - modern paganism doesn't have to mimic ancient paganism in ancient aspect and in fact should take some modern insights into account - like the fact that human sacrafices don't work, because external forces of nature like wind and temperature are not affected by it. So no reason to return to human sacrafice. I personally believe paganism should include circumstational voluntary religious suicide as means of escaping dishonor trough, but that is not the same.

Slavery has nothing to do with paganism. Jews and Christians also had slavery for more then thousand years and Islam still continues to have slavery. The dissapearance of slavery has to do with technological progress and economic reforms and has little to do with religion. No religion is to blame for slavery in ancient world and no religion can call itself as liberator of slaves because slavery was cancelled for economic and not religious. Only Islam looks worse here due to their insistance to slavery as shown by example of Mohammad and this shows the dangers of scriptural religion forced to stick to it's past practices. Bible also speaks of slavery as something normal so let's hope no Jew or Christian denomination decides to take those parts litelary again.

It's enterely normal for religion to be viewed in different perspective by intellectuals and normal people. People of different IQ's and hierarchy values need different motivations. Common folk needs images of plural gods (or heroes or saints) similar to them to identify with their troubles and to give them patronage. More sphisticated people can view it all in a more symbolic and philosophical light and think about the unity and comology of all divinity. This mulitple layered level of understanding is charecteristic of all religions:

Hinduism for lay masses - worship of multiple gods, mainly fortune gods like Ganesha.
Hinduism for initiated - meditation to unity of personal Atman with the cosmic Brahman

Budhism for lay masses - Mahajana
Budhism for initiated - Hinajana

Christianity for lay masses - patronage of saints and virgin Mary, fallowing the liturgical year and observance of Holy days.
Christianity for initiated - theological study, monastic life.

Judaism for lay masses - observance of Mitzwoth and Talmudic laws.
Judaism for initiated - Kaballah.

Only major religion with no separation of conduct between lays and the fully initiated is Islam, because it is a shitty religion.

My prediction is that Christianity will survive, but outside Europe it will also mutate. Both Chinese and African christianity will blend with local traditions and beliefs and create somethigg like Voodoo or Santa Muerte cult in Latin America where Christianity has blended with local mesoamerican beliefs. I don't think this Christianity will be the one carrying forth the values that the few remaining European Christians actually value. Also this will not be the type of Christianity that will defeat Islam. You can easily see how the current South American pope has totally different values then the previous European pope's - it has a lot to do with his heretige.

Islam will either be defeated by internet and exposure to logic and facts or it will plunge the whole world in chaos until it is defeated by combined forces of everything that it is not - atheists, agnostics, pagans, christians and buddhists fighting together against it.

[Mage]

(04-23-2018 04:28 AM)Leonard D Neubache Wrote:  

The Bible also instructs Christians to sacrifice cattle if I'm not mistaken, so saying "pagans did (x)" is not entirely reasonable because as Mage pointed out Paganism can move with the times just as Christianity has to some extent.

Like muslims have the Koran from which they cannot stray too far, Christians have the Bible from which they cannot stray too far, even when it's teachings lead to self-destruction. The well acknowledged suicide pact of Christianity is unfortunately even reinforced by the belief of suffering in this life in return for eternal paradise in the next. Muslim holy texts at very least provide for the salvation of the adherent in defending Islam to the death. Christianity? Not so much.

If Paganism can be simplified by saying it's simply a respectful worship of observed nature then without texts to confine it then it's endlessly malleable. Maybe back in the day some dude committed suicide on a particular rock and they ended up having a bumper crop that year, and on the basis of their observations they figured "let's make sure some dude dies on this rock every year. It apparently pleases the Gods.

It's not fair to suggest that modern Pagans must therefore become murderers any more than we can reasonably expect every Abrahamic religionist household to burn a calf at the appropriate time of year. Viewed in the long term, unlike Christianity, Paganism is not only more survivable but is functionally unkillable. Any farmer who's ever rejoiced at receiving much needed rain and offered thanks to the skies is engaging is a simplistic form of Paganism unless I'm somehow mistaken. Any farmer who decides for some ridiculous reason to wear the same hat he wore that day when he needs rain in the future is walking even further down that path.

When you live close to nature Paganism makes a shitload more sense than Christianity, but it was doomed to be persecuted into slumber because it doesn't provide for a centralised subordination to a militant hierarchy. All good and well for that hierarchy when it was militant but now it's just a plum for the next militant order to pluck from the tree.

This is right and in times before science, Paganism was dependant of causal observations that were sometimes true and give birth to knowledge and were sometimes just coinsidences and gave birth to superstition.

I think however that in modern age with both scientific method and the experiance multiplier a.k.a internet, paganism can get rid of these superstitions and only focus on the causalities that actually work.

It's similar how it is with seduction of women there are three approaches:

1) Patriarchal - court women by asking permission to her father and church - isn't applicable any more in a society that is not unified unders single religous code. This would be approach of Abrahamic religions.

2) Sacraficial - try to bribe a woman with being nice, and sacraficing her flowers and money in hopes to gain her favor trough simplified and intutive understending od causality and projection - "If I like it then the object I want to gain favor from must like it too - so if I give it my favourite things it will like it and give me favor"

3) Approach from learning experiances of a thousand men (Internet) - anonymously discuss topics with many men that would be too shameful or hard to discuss in real life and determine what works for most men in most situations and what doesn't. Understand true natural rules and gain wisdom in process. Before internet - honouring your ancestors and learning from them sort of worked like this experience multiplator. Scientific method and cponducting mutliple experiments is also under this. Scientific experiments works for controlling external nature's forces, but to gain insight on internal forces within human psyche you just need to accumulate a lot of experiance by discussing it with a lot of people and also trough some trial and error on your part, just so you could understand what others are talking about.

[Mage]

(04-23-2018 05:17 AM)Zelcorpion Wrote:  

All spiritual paths and religions have to be centralized and hierarchic - otherwise they won't survive in a unified way.

One druid is an exalted spiritual member who just does some rituals while preaching sensible stuff, while the other straps a baby to a tree to be devoured by animals once every 10 years, because the harvest was great one year after such a baby died in the woods, so this is how it's going to be. In addition you have the usual psychopaths who make up shit as they go along - one druid with blood-lust is enough to have sacrificial cats established every Sunday.

The problem is of course that highly spiritual founders and priests seldom care about strong hierarchies - Assisi never did and his students picked up that task. The same was true before widespread written texts and "certified" teachers going around.

Militant hierarchy or not - this order is unfortunately necessary for any kind of organization - ideally when the head honcho is a mix between saint and genius.

You are coming from a paradigm of a necesary subjugation of personal freedom to conjure a big army and conquer a lot of land. Yeah these are the successful tactics of Christianity and Islam.

I think in these times it is more important to resist the Borg and remain faithful to oneself as an individual with integrity to oneself.

There is likely to always be a big statist and scriptural dominant belief that you are to give some tax or at least lip service. But there is also always going to be that underground esoteric practices that act like sources of fresh air and give an individual some personal power to adabt and bear trough life and the conformist bullshit we are forced into by the mainstream belief. This mainstream belief is likely going to be Islam for the forseeable future. Christians are people who are good at fallowing rules so they will accept Islam and cuck for it or convert en masse. Paganism as something used to surviving in shadows will survive trough and maybe even get upper hand somewhere in this brief window when Christanity has already lost it's power but islam hasn't arrived and secured it's foothold fully yet.

Some people here complained that too many pagans are former Satanists. Reason for this is simple - Satanism is a Christian term for Paganism. When Christians spread trough pagan world they declared all their gods as demons and branded every practice associated with them as devil worship, which later got the name - Satanism. When a modern person get's delusioned with Christianity, but doesn't want to reject all spirituality and become an Atheist, he is still tied to their terminology and way of thinking trough, so he first embraces the opposite - Satanism. While learning about Satanism he learns that it is not simply antithesis to Christianity, but is rather a thing on it's own predating Christianity and that Satanism is in fact a Christian slender on the whole thing that is actually Paganism. At this point he then ronounces Satanism as a mere mirror image to Christianity and embraces Paganism for it's own sake.

[Leonard D Neubache]

As an interesting side note, there are practices for harvesting seeds and later planting them relating to moon phases and other astrological variances which have demonstrable benefits on seed viability and plant performance.

If I'm not mistaken there is no scientific explanation for this phenomenon nor for the easily observable increase in mental illness issues when the moon is full (for example). Work in any hospital full of college educated atheists and they will still joke about how it's as reliable as clockwork. Statisticians will tell you there's no measurable increase in anything we might relate to the effect of lunacy but as someone who was employed to deal with nut-jobs in EDs for the better part of a decade I can say that just because there wasn't a rash of werewolves being arrested for violent crimes on a full moon doesn't mean it didn't drive the nutters extra nutty. I went into the job a sceptic and came out a believer, as did everyone else of my vintage.

Even in the modern age there are natural phenomena for which there is as yet no scientific explanation. I will say that Christianity grapples with that sort of stuff poorly. To Christians, God is benevolent yet his inscrutable plan often results in great suffering which they are told to accept as being part of God's long-game. To Pagans the gods are often just assholes you need to do your best not run afoul of. I would suppose this makes Pagans far more practical people in many ways. To a Christian, God created abominable parasites that wrack the sufferer with pain, misery and death because it's part of his plan and it will all work out in the end you just have to trust me on that. Umm, okay. Is is part of his plan for me to boil contaminated water before drinking it or am I supposed to suffer the parasites he put on the earth for whatever purpose he put them here for?

Why would God make parasites if he didn't want people to be afflicted with them?

To a Christian the sound of approaching gunfire and jihadi wailing is often taken as a call to trust in God's plan. Stand there like good cattle. If God wills you to be spared you will be spared. It's all part of his plan. The eternal confusion comes from what part of God's plan involves you staying put and what part of his plan involves you getting the fuck out of there or picking up a gun and fighting back.

A Pagan on the other hand (correct me if I'm wrong on this) would either invoke the god of running-away or the god of picking-up-a-gun-and-fighting-back and then run the fuck away or fight the fuck back without wasting time considering whether there was one central God who wanted him to sit on his ass and trust in providence.

Perhaps this is the most fundamental problem with Christianity. Christians being trapped in a perpetual conundrum about what part of God's plan involves sitting on their ass, praying and watching the world go by versus what part of God's plan actually involves them doing something to affect the outcome.

[Pride male]

But in this day and age what purpose does religion serve? To unify people? A Fifa World Cup can do that. Hitchens reckons religion was man's first attempt at science and philosophy.


I saw a preacher ask Richard Dawkins, 'Without religion what stops people from raping and killing?' The police and the courts would stop people from raping and killing.


Besides, all the churches in Chicago dont stop the raping and the killing. I just wish people could practice their religions without asking for a tithe, a sacrifice or try to sell you something. If you need someone in a shiny suit or clerical garb to explain why raping and killing are wrong, then you need a psychiatrist, not a priest.

[Leonard D Neubache]

Humans are tribal creatures and it's in our nature to be deferential to some kind of higher authority. For some reason a godless bureaucracy doesn't seem to cut it. The Soviets tried to replace God with The State and it worked out poorly. In the end they simply had to tolerate worship of God because it was functionally impossible to convince random people to worship "that asshole Bryetnev we grew up with but thinks he's hot shit now because he's in the politburo".

Besides, religion provides a basic framework for what was acceptable in the first place, and you have a society because that framework was apparently effective, yet you take away the religion and you take away the framework. Or in other words you get what we have in the west here today, where if "God's" word on whether women should whore themselves around and flippantly divorce their husbands is no longer relevant then the laws to prevent it are erased and your society suffers.

We can say "women obviously shouldn't do that" but the law was dependant on the religion and without the law people are allowed to do whatever they please.

We've already seen the kind of madness that moral relativity has brought us. In California it's not even against the law to knowingly donate AIDS infected blood to a blood bank any more. Murder. Robbery. Rape. They might not be legal but that doesn't mean a great deal of erosion hasn't occurred around the edges.

A notable percentage of Muslims are A-ok with infidels being slaughtered. Murder for them is not a sin if done in the name of jihad. If you have no dominant religion then even murder is up for interpretation.

[YoungBlade]

Holy shit.

A shitpost meant to incite a flame war has devolved into a respectful conversation.

Damn Super_Fire. Good job.

[loremipsum]

(04-23-2018 07:59 AM)Leonard D Neubache Wrote:  

. Statisticians will tell you there's no measurable increase in anything we might relate to the effect of lunacy but as someone who was employed to deal with nut-jobs in EDs for the better part of a decade I can say that just because there wasn't a rash of werewolves being arrested for violent crimes on a full moon doesn't mean it didn't drive the nutters extra nutty. I went into the job a sceptic and came out a believer, as did everyone else of my vintage.

Actually there is an increase and it can be easily verified with quite easy math.
Now why, that's a whole another question.

[sterling_archer]

(04-23-2018 09:44 AM)YoungBlade Wrote:  

Holy shit.

A shitpost meant to incite a flame war has devolved into a respectful conversation.

Damn Super_Fire. Good job.

Luckily, thread is going in the direction I was hoping for. Rational conversation instead of "muh christianity" or "everything I don't understand is satanism".

[Simeon_Strangelight]

(04-23-2018 08:23 AM)Pride male Wrote:  

But in this day and age what purpose does religion serve? To unify people? A Fifa World Cup can do that. Hitchens reckons religion was man's first attempt at science and philosophy.

I saw a preacher ask Richard Dawkins, 'Without religion what stops people from raping and killing?' The police and the courts would stop people from raping and killing.

Besides, all the churches in Chicago dont stop the raping and the killing. I just wish people could practice their religions without asking for a tithe, a sacrifice or try to sell you something. If you need someone in a shiny suit or clerical garb to explain why raping and killing are wrong, then you need a psychiatrist, not a priest.

Taking a look at how the Muslim world views rape and killing of infidels I would say that religion has a massive effect on the ethics - especially towards the lower 50% of the population.

Humans in my opinion have a certain moral code hard-wired into them, but that code is sensed clearly against the social consciousness by a mere 5-10% at best. We have that supported by studies done on children in the communist countries which experimented with laissez-faire kindergartens and no rules. Most kids just went batshit, but a few percent found their moral internal code even when the modus operandi of the other kids was negative.

Islam causes such terrible problems because it's essentially a religion for thugs telling you that killing, raping, plundering, pedophilia and all kinds of brutal acts are fine so long as the other person is not part of your specific sect of Islam or even worse a kaffir.

And as for atheism and all other so-called noble proceeds - you have no idea how society would look like without Christian moral sets permeating the world, without the Chinese and Japanese moral sets which are backed by certain millennia-old traditions of honor and shame.

You only find out how moral sets collide when Africans eat the hearts of 18yo girls or gang-rape a woman while holding down the husband to watch. You see it manifested in a multitude of actions of Muslims across the world - wherever they settle down. And you also saw how a combination of Talmudic hatred and Atheist violent delight massacred tens of millions in Russia and China - all because the old moral codes were violently thrown out.

And as others noted before - the intellectual ethical behavior of Sam Harris or Richard Dawkins - both with IQs of likely 130+ - simply won't be replicated by the majority of the world population set in much humbler cerebral capabilities. The simple ideas of hell/negative karma/shame to family and ancestors aid in suppressing the most negative actions. That is why we don't follow our instincts, don't rape all women we find hot, don't bash someone's head in just because he pissed us off in traffic or at work. Our animal instincts are telling us all of that. Our higher nature is speaking something else, but in between the realm of the mind and emotions is dominated by ideologies, by religion or by the wisdom of wiser men that is either helping us making better choices or the wisdom is just designed to make worse beings out of us (Islam).

Mage - as a side-note - you are making some sweeping generalizations about Christianity comparing it somehow with Islam or claiming that most Christians will simply convert when this was not even the case with the Middle Eastern Christians living for 1400 years among them despite them having all the power, strength and even monetary suppression. It's not anywhere close to being identical. It should also give you room for thought when you claim that many current-day pagans were Satanists not so long ago. And I am not even some kind of bible-thumping guy here who sees Satanist circles as a real threat, but still - it's not exactly a positive mindset.

[SlickyBoy]

(04-23-2018 02:27 PM)Zelcorpion Wrote:  

The simple ideas of hell/negative karma/shame to family and ancestors aid in suppressing the most negative actions. That is why we don't follow our instincts, don't rape all women we find hot, don't bash someone's head in just because he pissed us off in traffic or at work. Our animal instincts are telling us all of that. Our higher nature is speaking something else, but in between the realm of the mind and emotions is dominated by ideologies, by religion or by the wisdom of wiser men that is either helping us making better choices or the wisdom is just designed to make worse beings out of us (Islam).

Very odd that when it comes to not raping women, the place which invented the entire concept of karma seems the worst at it.

And those shit-bathing pics of India posted earlier are not far from the truth for much of the region. As much of a shit show that modern Christianity is nowadays, at least it isn't an actual shit show.

[debeguiled]

(04-23-2018 11:52 AM)sterling_archer Wrote:  

(04-23-2018 09:44 AM)YoungBlade Wrote:  

Holy shit.

A shitpost meant to incite a flame war has devolved into a respectful conversation.

Damn Super_Fire. Good job.

Luckily, thread is going in the direction I was hoping for. Rational conversation instead of "muh paganism" or "everything I don't understand is satanism".

Fixed it for you, to coin a phrase.

[Simeon_Strangelight]

(04-23-2018 02:45 PM)SlickyBoy Wrote:  

(04-23-2018 02:27 PM)Zelcorpion Wrote:  

The simple ideas of hell/negative karma/shame to family and ancestors aid in suppressing the most negative actions. That is why we don't follow our instincts, don't rape all women we find hot, don't bash someone's head in just because he pissed us off in traffic or at work. Our animal instincts are telling us all of that. Our higher nature is speaking something else, but in between the realm of the mind and emotions is dominated by ideologies, by religion or by the wisdom of wiser men that is either helping us making better choices or the wisdom is just designed to make worse beings out of us (Islam).

Very odd that when it comes to not raping women, the place which invented the entire concept of karma seems the worst at it.

And those shit-bathing pics of India posted earlier are not far from the truth for much of the region. As much of a shit show that modern Christianity is nowadays, at least it isn't an actual shit show.

Simple:

1) Caste system is shit - far more negative than it seems
2) Dowry system and devaluation of women - also highly negative
3) Add to it average IQ of 81 while all the high-IQ ones leave (average Indian immigrant to the US has reportedly an IQ of around 110)

The teachings of karma barely registers in such an environment.

Though some of the reports are overblown. It's a country of 1.4 billion with shit infrastructure and a still large Muslim minority. My guess is that the place would be far worse with a different mindset. Though all three aspects mentioned by me will have to change if India intends to surpass a country like China. In my opinion that will happen, just in a few centuries.

Oh - and another thing - most Indians are far more materialistic than Westerners. Many spiritual people report all the same being absolutely dumbfounded by the rampant materialism thinking that they would enter some kind of enlightened place while everyone thinks about money and social advancement.

[AnonymousBosch]

(04-19-2018 03:34 PM)Mage Wrote:  

You are a liar. You know full well that there is nothing intuitive about a dead corpse hanging on a wooden cross and somehow representing victory, strength and immortality.

Christians always bring up emotional explanations about why is death on cross so important and how much it means to them, because it doesn't make any sense rationally.

But it does. It, once again, is fascinatingly-legalistic, mirroring how Demonology functions. The Light and the Dark both operate via Terms and Conditions that the Dark attempts to obscures knowledge of so people are more easily tricked, and that the Light has clearly-laid out for us. Follow the Law, and you don't go insane and destroy your life and the lives of those around you. (Note how often insanity and disease is labelled as being possessed by demons in biblical texts).

With the Crucifixion, The Old Covenant is being broken, and a New one - as formerly laid out in the Last Supper - is being 'signed'.

Why are demonic contracts signed in blood?

Why the importance of blood sacrifices in Pagan Religions?

So here, God becomes his own Sacrifice, freeing all who believe.

Blood offerings are no longer required by Man to God, instead blood is offered for man by God.

What does biblical prophecy say happens when peace is declared in the middle east and the Anti-Christ allows the rebuilding of the Third Temple? The recommencement of Blood Sacrifices.

See how eternal and universal the importance of Blood for the Gods is, and why this one act is the inverse of that tradition?

If you view the world as being under Satan's Control, then the Biblical Texts and the provided rules are a strict operant conditioning system to psychologically-programme you to - with work and discipline - be freed of satanic bondage. Dysfunctional actions guarantee dysfunctional results under the Law that is in place because your spiritual protections are, legally, removed.

Remember what happens immediately after Jesus dies on the Cross: The Harrowing Of Hell. Jesus descends into Hell, tells the virtuous that the Gates of Heaven have been opened, and leads them to paradise. Note that even though they'd followed God's Law until they died, they were not fully yet out of Satan's reach.

The crucifixion is the rewriting of the Legal Code, almost if Jesus had found a Loophole in Satan's Contract.

It's fascinating.

[debeguiled]

Mage is playing dumb in order to subvert common understanding.

In that post he talks about a corpse on a cross and only in the last paragraph mentions resurrection.

He wants to smear crap all over something that is important to billions of people.

His big insight is that Jesus with a pierced heart is a much better symbol than the cross.

This is lame because it isn't the point of that post, which is to deride the most important Christian symbol, to make it look weak, foolish, reeking of death and destruction.

I heard his brother in arms that Styxhex guy on a podcast saying that every interview he does is basically a pagan ritual.

Bingorama.

Nothing he says will affect people with strong faith, but he may sway weak minded, weak hearted people who want to look cool and smart and strong.

Tedious when you can see it and call it what it is.

[Raylan Givens]

(04-23-2018 12:47 AM)Mage Wrote:  

Too much Orthodox Christian fanboyism here in latest posts. It all comes form ignorance about this church and only romanticized wish to escape e the cucked West and find some mythical "unspoiled, uncucked form of Christianity" somewhere.

Quote:

Yes orthodox Christianity is nationalistic and less cucked, but there is a problem with it. It is utterly corrupt. Every priest who is left there is a former KGB agent. It is a rupor for Russian state power. And it get's ridiculed all the time for it's priests riding luxury cars and living in extreme wealth, while Russian people are relatively poor. That church has no separate organ from state to think and make decisions anymore. I seriously question it''s ability to insist on upholding any moral truth if the state power changes it's moral stance. For now Putin is with the Church on the same side about gay and feminist question, but what if he changes his mind?

Anyway I would not trust an orthodox priest with a confession, the same way I would trust a Catholic priest, despite Catholics being more cucked. Each remaining Russian Orthodox priest is an informant for the state. There are non-russian orthodox, but their numbers and impact are too small to cause any cultural change and they are under constant pressure from Russian orthodox to recognize the superiority of Moscovian patriatchate.

Utter bullshit. Every Russian priest is a spy? Are you fucking kidding me? Who told you this? Hillary Clinton and Joe Scarborough?

Not to mention Holy Rus wasn't converted until the 10th century. What about the 900 years of Orthodoxy prior to that? Orthodoxy comes primarily from the Levant, the Middle East, North Africa, and Greece if we're talking about historically. The greatest saints in the Church do not come from Russia. Though some Orthodox consider Moscow the "Third Rome." That's immaterial to millions of Orthodox. My faith doesn't rise and fall on the political musings of Vladimir Putin or Western Russophobes.

(04-23-2018 01:12 AM)Mage Wrote:  

Many people here say Paganism is dead because there is no authentic way left to worship Odin and Thor and the rest.

This is a Christian-centric view. You want to analyze another faith with the mindset of your old/current one. No wonder you fail.

All you've presented is a rose colored view of paganism. Paganism is dead. It's not a serious world view, unless we're talking about Hinduism. Modern Western neopaganism is a group of functional atheists who LARP in the woods and are the male equivalents of "I'm spiritual, but not religious."

(04-23-2018 01:27 AM)Enigma Wrote:  

(04-22-2018 01:21 PM)Raylan Givens Wrote:  

Western Christianity is in it's death throes. Outside of FSSP, SSPX, and a few small sede groups Catholicism (as it is historically understood) only exists in books and the failing memories of those older than 65 or so. Protestantism is utter garbage and always has been. We're talking about 1.5 billion Christians worldwide and hundreds of millions of Christians in the United States. They have to go somewhere. Most will probably just stop going to church altogether, but some will find the draw to real, authentic Christianity irresistible. Very few people in the West have encountered anything other than a shallow, sham, a mockery of the Christian faith.

America would not exist without Protestantism. It was one of the driving forces for the settlers, the revolution, and the original government.

The Orthodox church currently has less fat because their nations have been getting their ass kicked for 600 years straight.

Westerners will just go back to reading the early church fathers, not convert to Eastern Orthodoxy en masse, which is a historically nonsensical prediction.

By the way, China's rapidly growing Christian population is mostly Protestant, so I wouldn't hold your breath on the end of Protestantism.

Show me where I said all Westerners (or even Westerners "en mass") will convert to Orthodoxy. I explicitly said the the opposite. Also, once Westerners start reading the ECFs again they'll realize that almost nothing in modern Western Christianity (Protestant or Catholic) would be recognizable to Church Fathers like St. John Chrysostom, St. Basil, or St. Gregory the Theologian.

Numbers don't really matter and don't determine truth. When 90% of the bishops bought into the Arian heresy it didn't make it true. I don't care if every Chinaman is a heretic, doesn't make it true. For most of the last 1000 or so years Orthodoxy has been out numbered, why? Because "narrow is the gate and straight is the way." More people abandoned Christ than followed him. The people where there en masse to throw palm leaves and hosannas on Palm Sunday but come Good Friday only a few women and St. John the Divine were left. Protestantism is easy. Modern Catholicism is easy. The reason more people convert to Protestant sects or follow Novus Orodo NewChurch Catholicism over Orthodoxy or even Traditional Catholicism is the same reason more people take diet pills or use shake weights than go on a true diet and hit the gym for legitimate exercise.

[FilipSRB]

(04-23-2018 04:55 PM)AnonymousBosch Wrote:  

(04-19-2018 03:34 PM)Mage Wrote:  

You are a liar. You know full well that there is nothing intuitive about a dead corpse hanging on a wooden cross and somehow representing victory, strength and immortality.

Christians always bring up emotional explanations about why is death on cross so important and how much it means to them, because it doesn't make any sense rationally.

But it does. It, once again, is fascinatingly-legalistic, mirroring how Demonology functions. The Light and the Dark both operate via Terms and Conditions that the Dark attempts to obscures knowledge of so people are more easily tricked, and that the Light has clearly-laid out for us. Follow the Law, and you don't go insane and destroy your life and the lives of those around you. (Note how often insanity and disease is labelled as being possessed by demons in biblical texts).

With the Crucifixion, The Old Covenant is being broken, and a New one - as formerly laid out in the Last Supper - is being 'signed'.

Why are demonic contracts signed in blood?

Why the importance of blood sacrifices in Pagan Religions?

So here, God becomes his own Sacrifice, freeing all who believe.

Blood offerings are no longer required by Man to God, instead blood is offered for man by God.

What does biblical prophecy say happens when peace is declared in the middle east and the Anti-Christ allows the rebuilding of the Third Temple? The recommencement of Blood Sacrifices.

See how eternal and universal the importance of Blood for the Gods is, and why this one act is the inverse of that tradition?

If you view the world as being under Satan's Control, then the Biblical Texts and the provided rules are a strict operant conditioning system to psychologically-programme you to - with work and discipline - be freed of satanic bondage. Dysfunctional actions guarantee dysfunctional results under the Law that is in place because your spiritual protections are, legally, removed.

Remember what happens immediately after Jesus dies on the Cross: The Harrowing Of Hell. Jesus descends into Hell, tells the virtuous that the Gates of Heaven have been opened, and leads them to paradise. Note that even though they'd followed God's Law until they died, they were not fully yet out of Satan's reach.

The crucifixion is the rewriting of the Legal Code, almost if Jesus had found a Loophole in Satan's Contract.

It's fascinating.

When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with
Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14 having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was
against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. 15 And having disarmed
the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross. (Col 2.13-15)

Augustine: “And where the devil could do something, there he met with defeat on every side. While from
the cross he received the power to slay the Lord's body outwardly, it was also from the cross that the inward
power, by which he held us fast, was put to death. For it came to pass that the chains of many sins in many
deaths were broken by the one death of the One who himself had no previous sin that would merit death.
And, therefore, for our sake the Lord paid the tribute to death which was not his due, in order that the death
which was due might not injure us. For he was not stripped of the flesh by any obligation to any power
whatsoever, but he willed his own death, for he who could not die unless he willed doubtless died because
he willed; and therefore he openly exposed the principalities and the powers, confidently triumphing over
them in himself”. ON THE TRINITY 4-13-17-57

“In biblical cosmology the king must first seek reconciliation and demonstrate that the stewards
are unrepentant or he can be accused of being selfish and arbitrary. He sends servants, who are
mistreated. He sends his son, who is tried by the vassals’ court, found guilty, and punished by
death. The case is appealed to the supreme court in heaven. There the judgment of the lower
court is found to be unjust, so the verdict is overturned. Moreover, the court itself is found to
be evil, so it is removed from power and sentenced to punishment. The central issue, then, is
not one of power, but of legitimacy…Given this imagery it is clear why the cross, not the
resurrection, is the supreme victory, for there Satan and his supporters are shown to be evil. In the
resurrection God overturns the judgment of the Jewish and Roman courts and frees the innocent
victim. When the case was overturned, Satan had no more legitimate authority in heaven or on
earth. He was therefore cast out.” (Anthropological Reflections on Missiological Issues, Paul G. Hiebert, Baker:1994.)

The Cross is without doubt a symbol of Christ's Victory (or Christus Victor for people interested in additional reading) over Satan. Bosch is right and it is you Mage who is a liar here.