[Cobra]

Not to beat a dead horse since many members have already said this but having been in the Corporate environment for almost 15 years now, I'll drop my couple cents.

-You have not been there long enough to demand a raise even if you already cured cancer there.
-Nothing will happen in a week, let alone a month as far as promotions are concerned.

And lastly, but not least by any means...

You are NOT special enough that others will go to bat for you or defend you. As a matter of fact, the reason to me is obvious. I sense an arrogance coming across that will create a negative view in others' minds of you. This will prevent them from giving you anything more because you are not diplomatic or political enough to game your way to a raise. When you don't get a girl's number or get to bang her, do you go over and demand she give you a yes or no? Fuck no. You can do that, yes, but be on the look out for a big fat NO.

Source: I work in the staffing industry and I have seen many candidates like you that don't make it anywhere in the end because of this arrogance. It's way too obvious.

[Yves555]

So, as I said I had a meeting with the big boss of my company, and I talked with him about salary raise, and promotion, he said that he will think about what kind of job he can promote me to, and now he told me that he talked with the main chain director of human resources and recommended about me, and that the HR manager of the chain would like to meet me when he will come to our city, whice is actually, next week.

So my question is, how to prepare for it? Should I make a list of all the accomplishments and achivements that I have made and give it to him? What kind of tips can you me to get the best impression?

[Mig Picante]

Think about your accomplishments but also think about your skills and how they fit the needs of the business.
You will need to present your case for advancement in a business-focused manner rather than about yourself. You need to demonstrate how you 'add value' to the business. (for want of a better word)

You were the one that asked for a raise/promotion after 7 months. That is very quick and suggests a degree of naivety on your part so I would suggest you approach the meeting with humility as well since it's possible that you have overestimated your contribution.

Talk to them about what opportunities for progression are available.
You should have an idea of where you want to go and areas that interest you too.

[Suits]

Business is pretty simple. People do not get raises/promotions because they deserve it. If corporations could get away with paying everyone (including the CEO) minimum wage and still consistently earn the same profits, they would.

There's only two reasons to promote someone and/or give them a raise:

The company's business model needs someone in a role that includes more responsibility. Due to the increased responsibility, they also offer a higher salary, because if they didn't the person would prefer to stay in the easier and more comfortable role.

or

The company is afraid that someone will quit and paying them more money is cheaper than replacing them.

That being said, it's usually just cheaper to replace someone who demands more money, because if any company simply gave a raise to everyone who demanded one, they expense would be significant. The only way this strategy works is if you as an individual are so special that you could not easily be replaced without increased costs comparative to simply giving you a raise.

So, here's the question you need to answer:

What makes you so valuable to the company?

Keep in mind that businesses have no use for someone who goes above and beyond if him doing so doesn't generate they any meaningful profits. They'll take the freebie, but they aren't going to set a precedent by paying him extra.

[easternwomenrule]

When I was a 9-5 worker and climbing the ranks, I would ask for more work and take on new responsibilities! After doing what you have done, I would remind my boss say within a week or be specific on the time frame... He says 2 weeks he will let you know, ask him in 2 weeks! Don't be scared to remind him every now and then (every week) if he doesn't get back to you and do a little sucking up. Don't go overboard, just a little and keep the rapport good. Only ask when he is in a good mood!

I use to ask for a review of my performance every 3-6 months. Usually during this time where you have shown you are a hard worker and taking on more responsibilities, you can ask for a raise. It's usually best every 12 months no sooner unless you have taken on way more responsibilities (no less than 6 months).

You can also ask for some work from your manager to help him out! This usually means you will be the next manager or assistant manager if he is on leave cause you know his job! When the time is right (6 month review) you can ask for a pay increase due to your extra responsibilities compare to the rest of your staff that are only doing the basic job!

I've worked for some companies for free to get experience back in the day! Experience is no. 1 in getting a job next to selling yourself!

[Yves555]

(07-05-2017 08:12 PM)Mig Picante Wrote:  

Think about your accomplishments but also think about your skills and how they fit the needs of the business.
You will need to present your case for advancement in a business-focused manner rather than about yourself. You need to demonstrate how you 'add value' to the business. (for want of a better word)

You were the one that asked for a raise/promotion after 7 months. That is very quick and suggests a degree of naivety on your part so I would suggest you approach the meeting with humility as well since it's possible that you have overestimated your contribution.

Talk to them about what opportunities for progression are available.
You should have an idea of where you want to go and areas that interest you too.

My dear forum members , I just started to write down a list with all of my current achievements since I started working in my company, and projects that I lead by my self and took care of , I mentioned also the regulations and the suggestions for streamlining I created. What else should I mention/add ?

I will meet the main HEAD HR Manager (the biggest HR, in charge of more than 5k workers) of my company next week, and by the way , my big boss really recommend and said good things about me (I'm not cocky or unrealistic as some of you may think about me), I really helped the company to make much more profits, I helped dramatically in marketing my company , I recruited alot of good workers, I created alot of regulations that improved the overall opeartion of my company , the grade index (score data, every peremeter has been increased significantly) grew up big time since I started in the company, I got all the data to support my work so I feel like I got a really good chance to make an impact and persuade my companies HR manager, to support my promotion objective.

Question : through the meeting, should I read the main and actute pointers of the letter I wrote? Or just יhave a normal conversation and only after the end of, the meeting deliver to him the promotion letter? Or maybe I should immediately deliver the letter, let him read it a little bit AND only then start the conversation?

What's that ideal way to make the presentation perfect?
I can't find of any sample of promation interview letter, Should I just write down a basic list of my accomplishments and my "highlights moments"? Or write an offical professional letter, and add also different aspects except of my list of accompolishments?

Thank you in advance, I really apperciate your help and tips, This is a very critic and life changing moment in my life (I'm in my early 20's - THIS IS THE TIME) and I want to maximize the opportunity, that I have been privileged to earn.

*Please respect and give me only professional answers, there is no place for non relevant comments, negativity, and naysayers. I'm here to improve my life and thats why I'm asking for a real helpful tips and advices , and not to let someone drag me down, or make fun of it, no time to waste.

Again, Thank you guys and gals!

[Captain Gh]

^ I think you should really listen to @Cobra on this one! By reading your post... I felt some neediness... very big neediness. Yeah we'd all love to make more money... but it's as if you absolutely need this raise to validate yourself!

He felt your arrogance... and I felt your neediness. Both of us are probably right... but one of us is bound to be right! I'm sure there's already a process in place for an evaluation and such... so if I was you I'd let it be.

[Yves555]

(07-08-2017 11:52 AM)Captain Gh Wrote:  

^ I think you should really listen to @Cobra on this one! By reading your post... I felt some neediness... very big neediness. Yeah we'd all love to make more money... but it's as if you absolutely need this raise to validate yourself!

He felt your arrogance... and I felt your neediness. Both of us are probably right... but one of us is bound to be right! I'm sure there's already a process in place for an evaluation and such... so if I was you I'd let it be.

I dont understand what's your point here, I was asking for tips and help, on how to approach the meeting, and how exactly should I write down my list of accomplishments and etc.

Thank you Captain, I really apperciate your attempt to drag me down, But it didnt work for you, and you didnt follow the object of this thread, I asked for a professional plan and not useless negativity bullshit, But your such a good motivator, becuase now my ambition is even higher, so thank you dear hater, kudos for you!

Let's back to the subject guys, please give me answer for this specific question guys, becuase some of the negative people here are taking it too hard, to see someone who works hard and dream big... So as I mentioned before, how to form the letter/list of accomps? and how should I make presentation? I'm young and you guys got alot of experience, I would like you guys to share you're knowledge, just give me overall "scenario" and tips I can use, it would increase my chances dramatically, Thanks!

[Cobra]

Look OP. There is such a thing as direct communication, which is what you're seeing from a lot of us. We as human beings can communicate many things directly, including criticism. That may sound negative, but it's not, it's constructive. The meaning of this is that it is meant for you to construct a better path to resolving your issue based on the underlying feedback. You know what the biggest indicator of success is in the Corporate world? You guessed it, #1, it's the dissemination of constructive criticism from a second person and #2 the application of constructive criticism by the recipient. In this thread, #1 is happening, but #2 is barely happening. I can guarantee that unless you are more open to constructive criticism and its application, you will not be successful. How can I be so sure?

Well, I was in the Corporate world for about 10 years, worked at one of the largest consulting/audit firms in the world. I saw people succeed and become partners who had immense social/political skills but not great work ethic. I also saw people with great work ethic with great ideas but worked tons of hours and could not navigate the sociopolitical Corporate landscape. They were "counseled out," which is a nice way of saying, no you won't get "made" (made partner). Then I came into the consulting industry, essentially as a salesman selling consultants for a living to hiring managers in finance who need resources and/or solutions. I was the top salesman in my company in the previous annual year. Why? I evaluate what I sell in such a way that I see through their arrogance, technical skill and social skill almost immediately. Give me 10 minutes with a person and I can tell you their value and how much they are worth in the market, and I'm talking their hourly or annual salary or pay. I am extremely thorough in my work. Overall I guess you could say, as far as answering these posts, I do it for a living albeit in a different industry, yet under similar circumstances and standards.

When I provide advice, I am 100% genuine and honest with my clients and consultants. I have built great relationships through my interactions within the last 3 years of doing this. So what I have told you before and what I'm about to tell you will be constructive. It is in no way meant to be negative. If you feel it's negative you are putting yourself in the bottom 10% of the work force from the perspective of employees that progress the fastest. So far you have shown that your value is decreasing from this perspective than increasing because you have not taken much constructive criticism to heart. So, let's try this again and hope it works for your sake.

(07-08-2017 10:26 AM)Yves555 Wrote:  

My dear forum members , I just started to write down a list with all of my current achievements since I started working in my company, and projects that I lead by my self and took care of , I mentioned also the regulations and the suggestions for streamlining I created. What else should I mention/add ?

Yes, you should write these down, whether you are asking for a promotion or not. You should always have a note book or file handy where you will document all your achievements. Not just for this purpose. The problem with your whole scenario is that your goal is to get an "accelerate" promotion, not an "in due course" promotion. Another words, you have very high standards for what you are looking for. Because of this, the most difficult component of your response is that you have to make your achievements appear of an equally high standard. What you have to be careful of is that you are not purposefully embellishing your accomplishments to fill a paragraph or page. Let's call this Trap #1. People that do this often fall into this trap and their achievements start looking like utter bullshit. So, fair warning. In addition what you should do is highlight every possible instance you can of your social skills, management skills and/or conflict resolution. If you cannot effectively do this you will fall into Trap #1.

Quote:

I will meet the main HEAD HR Manager (the biggest HR, in charge of more than 5k workers) of my company next week, and by the way , my big boss really recommend and said good things about me (I'm not cocky or unrealistic as some of you may think about me), I really helped the company to make much more profits, I helped dramatically in marketing my company , I recruited alot of good workers, I created alot of regulations that improved the overall opeartion of my company , the grade index (score data, every peremeter has been increased significantly) grew up big time since I started in the company, I got all the data to support my work so I feel like I got a really good chance to make an impact and persuade my companies HR manager, to support my promotion objective.

Unless I'm missing something HR is a compliance function. They have nothing to do with profits. They are there to ensure that the company does not get in trouble based on their hiring or firing practices. Heads of HR are great at understanding attrition data but terrible at understanding profitability and operational effectiveness. That decision usually comes from a manager or director that is in charge of some portion of the company's expense budget that results in profitability. I see anyone like the GM or his boss fulfilling this function, but not the HR manager. Prove me wrong if you'd like.

That said, you have not made clear what your goal is for this meeting. What is it? Is it for the HR Manager to offer you a promotion, provide you options or promise that he will move the ball forward and give you feedback by x date, or promise that he will move the ball forward with no specific indication of when. If you expect him to offer you a promotion or options, don't get your hopes up. The chances of this happening are very low. The chances of him providing you a promise to move the ball forward are much much higher. If he does not give you a specific date or details as to how he will follow up, your chances at that point are also much lower. I will be honest. An HR manager does not have enough authority to do much except speak to others. This is just another step in the process. So don't go in expecting much.

Quote:

Question : through the meeting, should I read the main and actute pointers of the letter I wrote? Or just יhave a normal conversation and only after the end of, the meeting deliver to him the promotion letter? Or maybe I should immediately deliver the letter, let him read it a little bit AND only then start the conversation?

What's that ideal way to make the presentation perfect?
I can't find of any sample of promation interview letter, Should I just write down a basic list of my accomplishments and my "highlights moments"? Or write an offical professional letter, and add also different aspects except of my list of accompolishments?

You are totally overcooking the entire meeting and do not understand how to handle such meetings. I'll start with some overall behavioral advice and then get into specifics. As mentioned in my previous paragraph above, DO NOT GO IN WITH EXPECTATIONS. Let's call this Trap #2. This appears to be a problem for you and you need to erase it from your mind. You are going in with an open mind to have an open conversation with someone that is only one cog in the wheel of decision making at that company. Also in my experience, people in HR, especially women can be absolute assholes. I would expect this more than anything if I were you. So your tone and your discussion needs to be extremely cordial.

As to your question regarding how you present, let's get into specifics. You do not go in listing out points regarding what you have done, especially if you fell into Trap #1, #2 or both. You need to first of all feel out the person. If you don't know how to open and ramble, this is a problem. You need to feel their vibe and connect with them from a social perspective. When that's done, figure out what it is that they do. A simple, "what is your role in the process for something like this?" will do. Next, think of how you can present your accomplishments in a 3 - 4 sentence overview IF IT'S RELEVANT BASED ON HIS RESPONSE. That's it! Anything longer than 1 - 2 minutes is too long. At that point, ask him if you should go into something specifically. If he says yes, that's GREAT. This is indication of 2 things, that he's relevant and that he IS INTERESTED. If you get neither, which is likely, you need to stay away from providing him unsolicited information. Your 3 - 4 sentences should be interesting and relevant enough that the CEO of the company should want to give you a promotion. This is your "promotion elevator speech" if you will. At the end of the meeting if he did not completely shut you out, ask for next steps and get a clear idea when you should follow up and with who.

Quote:

Thank you in advance, I really apperciate your help and tips, This is a very critic and life changing moment in my life (I'm in my early 20's - THIS IS THE TIME) and I want to maximize the opportunity, that I have been privileged to earn.

You are very young, and it shows. Don't set your expectations too high. Getting to the top is not just about hard work, it's about social and political capital. I wrote about this in my Corporate finance datasheet (part 2) - link below. It may behoove you to read it.

Quote:

*Please respect and give me only professional answers, there is no place for non relevant comments, negativity, and naysayers. I'm here to improve my life and thats why I'm asking for a real helpful tips and advices , and not to let someone drag me down, or make fun of it, no time to waste.

What I gave you this time and any previous time are relevant comments with lots of constructive criticism. One thing you have a huge lack of is patience and political capital. You need both to be promoted to the position/s you are looking for. So don't be surprised if things do not go your way. I'm not being a naysayer. I'm setting your expectations. I do that with a lot of my consultants when I know that they are expecting too much. The thing is that they may have access to other talent like you or even better than you. That's the reality. Similarly, you can go out and explore other opportunities to figure out what your value really is before you get too serious in your current company.

The number one thing you need to work on in the long run is acknowledgment of constructive criticism and its application to your situation. I have a very busy life and I really don't need to be providing all of this insight especially to a person that has taken "constructive criticism" as "negativity." Don't try and be a badass because most senior members on this forum see right through it.

That said, I thought I would do some good and give this another chance. At this point if this is not loud and clear, there may not be hope for you. Yet, if you can fully grasp what I'm telling you, I think you will be very successful. In return, all I want is for you to come back and give us a detailed synopsis of your progress. Again, we are here to help but you are with the big boys now. Your move grasshopper!

Quote:

Again, Thank you guys and gals!

There are no "gals" on this forum! This is a place for men.

Given you're not seeing this you may be someone that is posting this question on various forums on the internet hoping for positive feedback that is not constructive. Be careful. It also indicates you may take this advice and never come back. This is why I always have a hard time helping newbies. However, I take that risk and hopefully if all goes well, you will turn out to be a productive forum member that will add lots of value to this forum. At least that's my hope!

[Yves555]

(07-08-2017 06:02 PM)Cobra Wrote:  

Look OP. There is such a thing as direct communication, which is what you're seeing from a lot of us. We as human beings can communicate many things directly, including criticism. That may sound negative, but it's not, it's constructive. The meaning of this is that it is meant for you to construct a better path to resolving your issue based on the underlying feedback. You know what the biggest indicator of success is in the Corporate world? You guessed it, #1, it's the dissemination of constructive criticism from a second person and #2 the application of constructive criticism by the recipient. In this thread, #1 is happening, but #2 is barely happening. I can guarantee that unless you are more open to constructive criticism and its application, you will not be successful. How can I be so sure?

Well, I was in the Corporate world for about 10 years, worked at one of the largest consulting/audit firms in the world. I saw people succeed and become partners who had immense social/political skills but not great work ethic. I also saw people with great work ethic with great ideas but worked tons of hours and could not navigate the sociopolitical Corporate landscape. They were "counseled out," which is a nice way of saying, no you won't get "made" (made partner). Then I came into the consulting industry, essentially as a salesman selling consultants for a living to hiring managers in finance who need resources and/or solutions. I was the top salesman in my company in the previous annual year. Why? I evaluate what I sell in such a way that I see through their arrogance, technical skill and social skill almost immediately. Give me 10 minutes with a person and I can tell you their value and how much they are worth in the market, and I'm talking their hourly or annual salary or pay. I am extremely thorough in my work. Overall I guess you could say, as far as answering these posts, I do it for a living albeit in a different industry, yet under similar circumstances and standards.

When I provide advice, I am 100% genuine and honest with my clients and consultants. I have built great relationships through my interactions within the last 3 years of doing this. So what I have told you before and what I'm about to tell you will be constructive. It is in no way meant to be negative. If you feel it's negative you are putting yourself in the bottom 10% of the work force from the perspective of employees that progress the fastest. So far you have shown that your value is decreasing from this perspective than increasing because you have not taken much constructive criticism to heart. So, let's try this again and hope it works for your sake.

(07-08-2017 10:26 AM)Yves555 Wrote:  

My dear forum members , I just started to write down a list with all of my current achievements since I started working in my company, and projects that I lead by my self and took care of , I mentioned also the regulations and the suggestions for streamlining I created. What else should I mention/add ?

Yes, you should write these down, whether you are asking for a promotion or not. You should always have a note book or file handy where you will document all your achievements. Not just for this purpose. The problem with your whole scenario is that your goal is to get an "accelerate" promotion, not an "in due course" promotion. Another words, you have very high standards for what you are looking for. Because of this, the most difficult component of your response is that you have to make your achievements appear of an equally high standard. What you have to be careful of is that you are not purposefully embellishing your accomplishments to fill a paragraph or page. Let's call this Trap #1. People that do this often fall into this trap and their achievements start looking like utter bullshit. So, fair warning. In addition what you should do is highlight every possible instance you can of your social skills, management skills and/or conflict resolution. If you cannot effectively do this you will fall into Trap #1.

Quote:

I will meet the main HEAD HR Manager (the biggest HR, in charge of more than 5k workers) of my company next week, and by the way , my big boss really recommend and said good things about me (I'm not cocky or unrealistic as some of you may think about me), I really helped the company to make much more profits, I helped dramatically in marketing my company , I recruited alot of good workers, I created alot of regulations that improved the overall opeartion of my company , the grade index (score data, every peremeter has been increased significantly) grew up big time since I started in the company, I got all the data to support my work so I feel like I got a really good chance to make an impact and persuade my companies HR manager, to support my promotion objective.

Unless I'm missing something HR is a compliance function. They have nothing to do with profits. They are there to ensure that the company does not get in trouble based on their hiring or firing practices. Heads of HR are great at understanding attrition data but terrible at understanding profitability and operational effectiveness. That decision usually comes from a manager or director that is in charge of some portion of the company's expense budget that results in profitability. I see anyone like the GM or his boss fulfilling this function, but not the HR manager. Prove me wrong if you'd like.

That said, you have not made clear what your goal is for this meeting. What is it? Is it for the HR Manager to offer you a promotion, provide you options or promise that he will move the ball forward and give you feedback by x date, or promise that he will move the ball forward with no specific indication of when. If you expect him to offer you a promotion or options, don't get your hopes up. The chances of this happening are very low. The chances of him providing you a promise to move the ball forward are much much higher. If he does not give you a specific date or details as to how he will follow up, your chances at that point are also much lower. I will be honest. An HR manager does not have enough authority to do much except speak to others. This is just another step in the process. So don't go in expecting much.

Quote:

Question : through the meeting, should I read the main and actute pointers of the letter I wrote? Or just יhave a normal conversation and only after the end of, the meeting deliver to him the promotion letter? Or maybe I should immediately deliver the letter, let him read it a little bit AND only then start the conversation?

What's that ideal way to make the presentation perfect?
I can't find of any sample of promation interview letter, Should I just write down a basic list of my accomplishments and my "highlights moments"? Or write an offical professional letter, and add also different aspects except of my list of accompolishments?

You are totally overcooking the entire meeting and do not understand how to handle such meetings. I'll start with some overall behavioral advice and then get into specifics. As mentioned in my previous paragraph above, DO NOT GO IN WITH EXPECTATIONS. Let's call this Trap #2. This appears to be a problem for you and you need to erase it from your mind. You are going in with an open mind to have an open conversation with someone that is only one cog in the wheel of decision making at that company. Also in my experience, people in HR, especially women can be absolute assholes. I would expect this more than anything if I were you. So your tone and your discussion needs to be extremely cordial.

As to your question regarding how you present, let's get into specifics. You do not go in listing out points regarding what you have done, especially if you fell into Trap #1, #2 or both. You need to first of all feel out the person. If you don't know how to open and ramble, this is a problem. You need to feel their vibe and connect with them from a social perspective. When that's done, figure out what it is that they do. A simple, "what is your role in the process for something like this?" will do. Next, think of how you can present your accomplishments in a 3 - 4 sentence overview IF IT'S RELEVANT BASED ON HIS RESPONSE. That's it! Anything longer than 1 - 2 minutes is too long. At that point, ask him if you should go into something specifically. If he says yes, that's GREAT. This is indication of 2 things, that he's relevant and that he IS INTERESTED. If you get neither, which is likely, you need to stay away from providing him unsolicited information. Your 3 - 4 sentences should be interesting and relevant enough that the CEO of the company should want to give you a promotion. This is your "promotion elevator speech" if you will. At the end of the meeting if he did not completely shut you out, ask for next steps and get a clear idea when you should follow up and with who.

Quote:

Thank you in advance, I really apperciate your help and tips, This is a very critic and life changing moment in my life (I'm in my early 20's - THIS IS THE TIME) and I want to maximize the opportunity, that I have been privileged to earn.

You are very young, and it shows. Don't set your expectations too high. Getting to the top is not just about hard work, it's about social and political capital. I wrote about this in my Corporate finance datasheet (part 2) - link below. It may behoove you to read it.

Quote:

*Please respect and give me only professional answers, there is no place for non relevant comments, negativity, and naysayers. I'm here to improve my life and thats why I'm asking for a real helpful tips and advices , and not to let someone drag me down, or make fun of it, no time to waste.

What I gave you this time and any previous time are relevant comments with lots of constructive criticism. One thing you have a huge lack of is patience and political capital. You need both to be promoted to the position/s you are looking for. So don't be surprised if things do not go your way. I'm not being a naysayer. I'm setting your expectations. I do that with a lot of my consultants when I know that they are expecting too much. The thing is that they may have access to other talent like you or even better than you. That's the reality. Similarly, you can go out and explore other opportunities to figure out what your value really is before you get too serious in your current company.

The number one thing you need to work on in the long run is acknowledgment of constructive criticism and its application to your situation. I have a very busy life and I really don't need to be providing all of this insight especially to a person that has taken "constructive criticism" as "negativity." Don't try and be a badass because most senior members on this forum see right through it.

That said, I thought I would do some good and give this another chance. At this point if this is not loud and clear, there may not be hope for you. Yet, if you can fully grasp what I'm telling you, I think you will be very successful. In return, all I want is for you to come back and give us a detailed synopsis of your progress. Again, we are here to help but you are with the big boys now. Your move grasshopper!

Quote:

Again, Thank you guys and gals!

There are no "gals" on this forum! This is a place for men.

Given you're not seeing this you may be someone that is posting this question on various forums on the internet hoping for positive feedback that is not constructive. Be careful. It also indicates you may take this advice and never come back. This is why I always have a hard time helping newbies. However, I take that risk and hopefully if all goes well, you will turn out to be a productive forum member that will add lots of value to this forum. At least that's my hope!

Firstable, thank you Cobra, I really apperciate you're detalied and imformative answers, constructive criticism is always a positive and an helpful information to recieve, I guess I missguided between the tight line of constructive criticism and pure negativity, my apologize for this misunderstanding.

You stated in your last comment alot of good and useful pointers, But I still got a few more question to ask, to get a clearer picture of what I should do:

* What did you mean by saying "What you have to be careful of is that you are not [b] purposefully embellishing your accomplishments to fill a paragraph or page"
- You meant I should not add non relevant accomplishments and highlights to fill up my "accomplishments page"? But only those that demonstrates my social skills, management skills and/or conflict resolution?


* "you have not made clear what your goal is for this meeting" My objective is to get promoted to an higher manager rank, to be more accurate, the title is : vice presdient/director manager, both jobs are available right now.

* By the way, In case the answer would be non concrete or negative, Should I request for a raise? Or wait for a different occasion in the future to ask? Becuase there could be a scenario that the upper managment apperciate my work and value in the current job role (So I can ask for the raise) Although they would think I'm not ready/suited yet to be promoted to an higher rank.

* My big boss mentioned in the past, that If I will get promoted, he wouldn't be able to find someone who will be able to fill my role and perform on the same level as I do, Becuase he gave me this information, I got a chance to prevent a rejection and just tell to the HR manager that I will contiune to function as my current role, in addition to the new role, untill they will find someone who is good enough, Or untill I will finish to teach and instruct the worker who will replace me.

* "You do not go in listing out points regarding what you have done"
- You mean I should feel his vibe first, and see to what kind of directions the conversation evolves? I understand, I should "throw" a few short highlights and see his respond, instead of plan a robotic way to state all of my accomplishments.

* Should I present only accomplishments that I took care of, Or also team accomplishments, so I can credit also other workers, and show that I'm a "team player"?

* Should I present all of my accomplishments orally? Or I can use the paper and read from it? (Wouldn't it look try hard?).
And should I give him the paper to read it by himself, or in the end of the interview deliver it to him so he can keep it, maybe it would help him remeber better my accomplishments, and that would help me to stick out?


Thanks, Cobra.

[Sonoma]

To answer your questions

1. Definitely check the vibe of the conversation
2. Definitely list both individual and team
3. Give them a paper copy only if you feel that'll benefit you. Definitely don't walk in assuming to hand it to them

[SamuelBRoberts]

If he gets a promotion, does that mean some poor fool has to work under this guy?

[Suits]

(07-08-2017 10:09 PM)SamuelBRoberts Wrote:  

If he gets a promotion, does that mean some poor fool has to work under this guy?

There's nothing wrong with asking questions. However, I have a hard time believing that someone as successful as he claims to be would be asking questions this simplistic.

Nevertheless, it's perfectly within his rights to ask questions here and all the better if he turns the advice he's receiving into real world success.

It's up to the hotel to decide whether promoting him will be a net gain or loss.

[SamuelBRoberts]

It's not the questions, it's the pushy, obnoxious, and entitled attitude. It just screams "Suck up to those who can benefit you, be a dick to everyone else". I mean, he's trying to dictate what other members can talk about on a freaking message board. I've dealt with types like these in the past, and they're absolute poison. They won't hesitate to screw over anybody if it means they get the coveted gold ring.

I mean, can you imagine having any loyalty to a guy who openly mocks the rest of his management team, and says things like, "I control workers and costumers very good - I got great interpersonal relations."? The atrocious English skills, which mean that his grasp of the subtler points of English-language communication is likely zero, is just the icing on the cake. (His co-workers are probably throwing up all kinds of subtle "Please, make it stop!" signals that are flying right over his head.)

If I was an employee working for a guy like this I would be updating my resume, or possibly doing everything I can to sabotage his relationship with his superiors so he gets shuffled to a different department, or hopefully fired. There's all kinds of ways to do that, many of which are hilarious.

[I DIDN'T KILL MY WIFE]

Good God OP you have an atrocious writing style. I know they teach you in college to write upbeat sentences with an active voice and shit but this is a bit too much. With every sentence you proclaim how big of a GO GETTER you are who RAISES PROFITS and LEVERAGES NEW REGULATIONS and is PRO-ACTIVE and DRIVEN and AMBITIOUS. It's fine in a job application where everyone involved knows they're getting bullshitted and that's just the way they like it, but when you're talking to normal people and coupled with the slight arrogance in your self-estimation you just sound foolish.

You 100% need to work on your writing, on the tone and to iron out the big amount of grammar mistakes.

(07-08-2017 07:48 PM)Yves555 Wrote:  

Firstable, thank you Cobra, I really apperciate you're detalied and imformative answers, constructive criticism is always a positive and an helpful information to recieve, I guess I missguided between the tight line of constructive criticism and pure negativity, my apologize for this misunderstanding.

My God, it's full of stars...

You basically sound like on of these dudes #driven #blessed #highperformer

[Suits]

(07-09-2017 12:37 AM)SamuelBRoberts Wrote:  

There's all kinds of ways to do that, many of which are hilarious.

I DIDNT KILL MY WIFE Wrote:  

Please stop posting images of me and my friends from my private Facebook account.

You promised you wouldn't.

[ronsaur]

(07-09-2017 03:13 AM)I DIDNT KILL MY WIFE Wrote:  

Good God OP you have an atrocious writing style. I know they teach you in college to write upbeat sentences with an active voice and shit but this is a bit too much. With every sentence you proclaim how big of a GO GETTER you are who RAISES PROFITS and LEVERAGES NEW REGULATIONS and is PRO-ACTIVE and DRIVEN and AMBITIOUS. It's fine in a job application where everyone involved knows they're getting bullshitted and that's just the way they like it, but when you're talking to normal people and coupled with the slight arrogance in your self-estimation you just sound foolish.

You 100% need to work on your writing, on the tone and to iron out the big amount of grammar mistakes.

(07-08-2017 07:48 PM)Yves555 Wrote:  

Firstable, thank you Cobra, I really apperciate you're detalied and imformative answers, constructive criticism is always a positive and an helpful information to recieve, I guess I missguided between the tight line of constructive criticism and pure negativity, my apologize for this misunderstanding.

My God, it's full of stars...

[Sisyphus]

First of all I'm not sure why this is in the Game section.

But regardless, OP you seem to have the predisposition to become the corporate Robin Hood I described in the workplace observations thread (to which this thread is turning into a dupe).

thread-62866.html

Once you get more work experience you'll see the same thing over and over - people vastly overinflate their actual value. You'll even see this in food service where some lowly line cook or busser who shows up to work high every day harbors some idea that they're the one really doing all the heavy lifting and the manager is just a lazy pig who sits around doing nothing while the restaurant would crumble the next day if they left. Same shit in retail with cashiers and floor staff. People who don't think creatively or deal with people as part of their job description make excellent armchair managers.

In office jobs people who simply do their job correctly get the same idea. This happens because so many people are woefully inadequate that someone who is perfectly adequate but nothing else gets the impression that they are somehow special. If this person gets some positive reinforcement it just makes it worse (OMG, my manager said I'm doing great and told me to keep up the good work!). In all these cases negative emotions build up and either manifest themselves slowly or explode all at once. You don't want to even take one step down that road.

If they see potential in you then they'll create a role for you in which they feel you'll be able to develop that potential. Otherwise there will be some set progression for people to advance. For example in retail exceptional cashiers become an inventory associate and have duties associated with shipping and receiving incorporated into their work. If they excel in this capacity they may get recommended for management training and start off as an operations manager from which they can progress to GM then become an area/district manager or move into corporate etc.

As others have noted, since the work you do probably isn't especially skilled or specialized your personality matters as much or more than what you actually do. If you're patient, pleasant, respectful of authority, smile often, don't get emotional, handle "stressful" situations calmly, and deal with customers well then this is what will set you apart from the rank and file who flip out over the slightest change in routine transactions.

Also, I consider a year to be a meaningful and non-arbitrary unit of time. People have seasonal mood disorders etc. so you can't really know a person too well before a year elapses. I say the first step is to do stand out work for a year and not rock the boat. See if you feel you're headed anywhere. In my case I worked for a year and a half before I started testing the market. I got a good offer from another company and told my employer I'd stay if they matched it - they countered with something much lower so I put in my 2 weeks right then and there.

Bottom line - don't let your ego convince you that you're more valuable than you really are. Focus on how you do your work instead of just doing it. You don't need to be friends with everyone but be on good terms with people, be friendly and personable. Don't indulge the thoughts that motivated you to start this thread. Practice mindfulness - there are books about this by Dalai Lama, Thich Nhat Hanh, Chogyam Trungpa etc. that are written in very simple language. You don't need to be a Buddhist and it's really more about keeping your thoughts and emotions in check than any religious practice.

[Suits]

(07-10-2017 01:12 PM)Sisyphus Wrote:  

exceptional cashiers

[Yves555]

I have met the head HR of the company a few days ago, he recieved alot of recommendation about me from alot of the head managers, about my work and accomplishments.

First, he asked me ofcourse, for my resume whice is 2 years of administrative jobs in a much bigger hotel.

I talked with him about how much I like my company, and I gave him a list with all my achievements that are not belong to my job description, Alot of hotel system management bugs that I personally fixed and saved alot of problems with the guests refunds, complaints, and eventually cancellations, hotel guest statsified record - the highest score in the last 7 years, websites fixes,updates and improvements that I took charge of, and that was lead by me, new market strategies, a second record - best rank the hotel has ever been in tripadvisior and booking, most of the reviews there were written about me and beacuase of me, dozens of thanks letters, new sales techniques, collaborations, effective inventions, and etc.

(My current role is to take charge of the hotel from the early afternoon until midnight or later)I told him that I want to start earlier becuase It's more productive hours, and so I can work together with the managers and imply all the courses, guidances, and new procedure I was thinking about to improve the workers perfomance and the general operation of the hotel.

I said also that I want to keep improving the in other aspects company, to initiate and make things happen , and In order to do that I must to have more authority, so I can have an impact on all of the areas. His answer was that theres enough back up in the morning (departments managers, general manager and etc) and becuase I'm so important and dominant they must to have me supervise and take control of the hotel in the evening, I said that I can do both, start earlier and finish later, but he said there is no need to.

He said that I can start in peak days earlier, and coordinate special dates with the other departments managers so I can to implement with them and create new guidances, courses system and etc.

After the job promotion discussion we changed the subject to salary raise, (I get paid per hour) not per month, and then he asked me how much I want to get paid, I said X number whice is about 10% more than what I was earning before, then he asked me whats my average monthly salary, (Why does it matter? I'm getting paid per hour, and each hour I provide more value to the company) he looked in the computer on my salary slip, and then he said... Oh you got also alot of extra overtime hours, like it's some consideration of deciding what salary I should get.

Why did he even bothered about my overtime hours? Those are still hours I was working for, It's not like they gave me them for free. Anyway he gave me a raise of 5% and thats it. He said also that this salary raise is unusual becuase usually they only give a raise after 1 year of seniority.

Why did they take the seniority so seriously? I can give a million of examples of workers with 10 and 20 years of seniority, but they dont push it hard enough, they dont improve or change anything, and they dont provide any extra value or even much value for their companies. And then I can give you an example of me, whice is pretty new in the company (8 months) But I did my job perfectly, and I did ALOT of extra things beyond my job description, I ADDED alot of value to the company and that what is matter - people should be paid by the value the provide not the time they work in the company.

I should add that I'm also pretty young and I guess he took it also in consideration, my relative young age versus the other managers, and my short time of seniority in the company. Maybe professionally I'm quallified enough to get promoted, but from politic stance the other manager may get jealous and start to rebel against the decision to promote me.

I can understand the promotion issue, but why the salary raise was that low? I know alot of REGULAR superviser workers (not managers) who are almost getting paid same as me, yes they got a couple years of seniority, but they are regular workers and their value is very limited compare to mine. I have to admit also that most of the hotel managers are pretty weak, they are not professional, and they dont care about their job. Even the head HR manager stated it himself, and said that I'm very unique compared to most of the managers, but he still dissapointed me.

By the way, when I asked my area general manager for the salary raise a month and an half ago, why he didnt gave me the 5% raise? What he told me to wait one month and an half for the BIG head HR company manager? I think its very disrespectful act from him, after the meeting with the HR , I asked why did he let me to wait so much time for this little raise, and he said that he dont have any authority to raise my paycheck. That's bullshit, hes not even a general manager of the hotel, but an area general manager, I guess he just didn't have anything else to say.

The bottom line is, maybe im working only for a few months for this company, but my value is very high, should i provide less value now? stop all the projects and the activites that doesn't belong to my job description and stop giving each day 110% from my self? maybe only then, they will start to apperciate me and value me correctly, I dont have any motivation now to keep pushing like a crazy man everyday, No way they give normal workers (even if they have a couple of seniority years) a paycheck close to mine. They barely provide ANY value.

I think they dont plan to promote me any time soon, they just want to use me, and underpay me for my work, I think like I should chillout in work and take everything easier, download my gear and do the basic stuff ONLY, becuase they didn't VALUED my grind correctly.


Thank you gentlemans for your tips and suggestions.

[Repo]

Whether you get paid for it or not, look at this job as training. All of the extra stuff you are doing is adding ticks to your resume and giving you work experience.

Put in as much work as you can and learn as much about the business as you can, but by all means job search like a motherfucker to find someone who will pay you what you are worth. It is very rare that someone will give you a worthwhile raise after ypu are already hired. You need to sell yourself and your experience to come in your next job at the appropriate level. Then do the same thing and hop jobs in a couple years, and before you know it you'll be miles ahead. Its a small world and you never know when you'll run into someone you worked with previously.. . .you want them to have good things to say about you.

Everyone at nearly any job will want to put you in a box. Its your job to learn as much as you can then jump out of it.

[Yves555]

I understand, But I should keep pushing or just play it easy and dont give a dam about them? I dont know if they take advantage and not really apperciating my effort and achievements. Maybe if I will keep pushing hard they will promote me in the future? or give me another raise.

[Sonoma]

You're hourly. You're bottom bitch.

Salary means you're main bitch

Find a new job

[polar]

A senior manager in my industry (not relevant) explained to me as such...

When a company hires you, you start out overpaid vs. what you prove to be capable of. They need to offer you a premium over your last job to fill their seat.

They then make it up on the back end by underpaying you. You can get an offer elsewhere and try getting them to counter, but they will likely not beat your offer for that same reason - the other company is paying a premium for you.

The bottom line is unless you're in a client-facing (sales related) position and are compensated based on sales, cost savings and other back end duties just aren't going to get you paid. They have a budget of $ to do X things at minimum, just because you outperform doesn't mean you'll get 2$. Figure out what is satisfactory, what is top marks, and don't exceed unless you agree in writing that if you go above and beyond they'll recognize your efforts.

There is no such thing as moving up in line with your abilities as shown by a few weeks or months. Update your resume, and consider cold calling or networking into another position...sell yourself hard

Set up a monthly catch up with him, butter him up, tell him you want to learn about the ins and outs of the industry, come with general questions, bring up personal successes, ask him questions about what you can do better or to get X experience (even if you know an answer it can help to ask), and attribute your success to his advice.

You're still an unknown factor so in order to move up you have to demonstrate loyalty. Not to the company as much as to the senior people who find you valuable.

[Yves555]

Why did he let me to wait so much for a little raise he could have raised by himself? He made me to think like I'm going to get promoted or a much bigger raise, because it's a formal meeting with the head company hr

He could set an appointment with the local hr manager or like I said he could just raise my salary by himself, he has enough status and prestige and authority, although he denied the fact that he can raise salaries by himself.

You mentioned that after the company recruits you they basically wouldn't hurry you increase the salary, that's why I thought about drop significantly my performance, my extra input and efforts, and all of other aspects I have mentioned. I would only fill my daily job tasks on a minimum level. They should understand that more value means more money.

I generated my company alot of money, through marketing, upsales and upgrades, new saving money ideas, ideal worker management, optimal guest satisfaction and alot of returned guests, I decreased amount of workers of each department in each shift, due to my guidance that increased their performance and my management skills, bug fixes that saved tons of money, and etc.

I can understand that they didn't promote me, but I deserve a much bigger salary raise, and that's why I should lower my performance, they must to appreciate me and value me as I deserve.