[Know1234]

Not sure if this belongs in the newbie thread...

I grew up reading RVF - much respect to @Kaotic, @Onto, @Moma, @Rudebwoy, @Jariel, @Kai, @WIA & many others for contributing here.

Found the forum at around 21 and I'm 24 now. I've come to a fork in the road type of situation with my first ever & current relationship, and it would be helpful to get some feedback.

Background on the situation:

- Been dating a conservative, submissive and sweet 25 year old woman for roughly the past 2 years.
- She is asking for commitment now to get engaged and then get married in 2-3 years from now.
- I have always wanted a family / wife etc but my timeline for committing to do this was always around 30-34.
- She just graduated university and comes from a 2 parent household.
- Virtually no social media presence.
- Rarely argues and wants to be led (follows what I tell her to do)
- She has a naturally slim, petite built and so do all her sisters and mother. Although she does not work out, she dances and watches what
she eats (no sugar, gluten etc).
- Never heard her swear / doesn't drink anything except wine rarely.
- Understands & supports traditional gender roles due to her being a devout Christian.
- We saw each other twice a week for the past 2 years and talked on the phone almost everyday.
- Willing to be a housewife etc - not career driven.
- Does NOT believe in divorce.
- Is willing to sign any pre-nup, marriage contract etc that I ask her to

- She is still a virgin and is waiting for marriage before giving it up.
- I did not push her for sex but told her that I will have to step out of our relationship to meet other women casually.
- She hesitantly agreed to this and we never really discussed it much afterwards. I actively denied & covered up other girls that I was
casually seeing to not hurt her feelings. (had 2 semi - regular FWB's at different times over the 2 year period, but the guilt of cheating was
too much for me so I passed up on some easy chances)

Where I stand now:

- After she asked me to commit a few times, I told her that I need more time to think this through.
- She sobbed, wailed & cried for a while when I told her that I need time to think this over.
- Although, I told her that we are not a couple anymore both of us are still emotionally attached and speak & see each other frequently.
- It has been a month since the initial break up conversation, but I have not given her an answer.
- I don't want to waste her time any longer and give her an answer one way or the other.

Red flags:

- She was engaged to be married to a 40 - something year old man about 3 years ago. She broke off the engagement because he wanted her
to convert to his religion and she was / still is a practicing Christian.
- We are not the same race. I'm Indian and she is Jamaican. I grew up around Caribbean people so I know & like the culture.
- We have different faiths - I'm not particularly religious but I can see this might cause complications down the line.

How can I best approach the following questions that I'm attempting to answer:

1) I feel that I am not experienced enough at 24 after meeting only a handful of women to make a commitment to marry her 2-3 years from
now. But I can tell that she is unlike most girls I have met or hear about and I am scared that if I let her go I will regret it and not meet
someone like her.

2) Although she is cute, she is not a stunner. The thought of passing up on potential stunners after I become more established in 3-4
years and missing out on bachelor trips & other experiences single men have does make me question commitment. Although, if I had to
pick - I would pick having a happy family with kids over travelling the world & banging random women.

3) Would marrying outside of my race / religion and culture have consequences on marriage satisfaction in 10, 20, 30 years from now with
her?

4) Since I am only 24 now and starting my career etc, I'm 4-6 years away from being at my most attractive to women. Would I be selling
myself short by settling with my first serious girlfriend? I would not have considered commitment at this age had she not been so caring &
warm to be around.

Not sure if this is enough info for the membership to give their opinion / advice / feedback. Please let me know if you need more details to give your opinion here.

I realize that in the end I will have to make the call but if you guys can give me a little bit of guidance on how to approach some of the questions here, it would be appreciated.

[Travesty]

Tough decision.

If her mom and other female relatives have aged well then I say it is worth considering.

Right now though on what you said my vote is to move on.

You will have to go with your gut in the end though.

The one defining trait to look at is in you know beyond doubt she is a ride or die bitch for you and has your best interests at heart. If that falters even slightly the answer should be no.

[BassPlayaYo]

I would say if you both share the same vision of where you want your lives to go you have a good chance of it working. The caveat is that you're still young and 10 years from now you may be thinking an entirely different way about a lot of things and she will as well.

Oh just caught this: 25 year old virgin?! You have to wait until you're married to get some pussy?! Come on man! Don't waste your time, unless of course she's rich.

[Suits]

(05-31-2017 10:38 PM)Know1234 Wrote:  

- She sobbed, wailed & cried for a while when I told her that I need time to think this over.

Don't do it.

[wi30]

Are you at least getting blowjobs?

[Leonard D Neubache]

As one of the more pro-marriage voices on the forum I'm still leaning towards "no, don't do it".

You've already placed your future value above hers, which will only get lower as time goes by, and on top of that you admit openly that you haven't had your fill of the world yet.

This has little if nothing to do with who she is and everything to do with who you are.

[sch]

(06-01-2017 12:21 AM)wi30 Wrote:  

Are you at least getting blowjobs?

Some girls just have a smell that I don't really like, so I'd have a test drive before marriage.

When you'll be 30-35, you'll be at the top of your shit, at your prime.

She'll be well past her prime. I see a problem here.

[Mig Picante]

I don't know?
I liken it to the game scenario when you should never pass on a "sure thing" when you're out on the pull.
This seems like the good girl everyone is looking for.

[Robtormar]

Don't do it bro

[FireStarter]

(06-01-2017 01:57 AM)Mig Picante Wrote:  

I don't know?
I liken it to the game scenario when you should never pass on a "sure thing" when you're out on the pull.
This seems like the good girl everyone is looking for.

Two years of zero sex with the possibility of three more is not what I'd count as a "sure thing".

[RatInTheWoods]

If you were banging other chicks while dating her then you aren't full invested, don't marry a woman unless you are 100% into her and visa versa.

Also getting married later is a much safer bet anyway, you still have to ride the vagina-carousel.

[Simeon_Strangelight]

Worthy of consideration. You cannot blame her for trying. Though she should already be getting blowjobs.

Also if you commit, then you should bang her even before marriage in 2-3 years. A lot can happen in 2-3 years. If you sense that it is a sound choice, then you could enter a long-term engagement.

As for other women - she should get used to you fucking other girls. You can put that one on frame.

[Off The Reservation]

Different people see different red flags in what they observe based on observe. While you do provide us a list of red flags, but the ones I (from sitting here in my what the hell do i know chair) see are not on your red flag list but elsewhere in your post:

1. Your liberal use of adjectives about this girl. She is a walking list of positive adjectives pretty to you, conservative, submissive and sweet, and I am sure you have a dozen more if you were challenged about her. I am not saying this will happen to you, but when I was 23 I married a cute little walking list of adjectives and in 9 years I found my 20s were gone and that list of adjectives had changed magically to another list mostly of opposite words. Bitchy, abusive, argumentative, obstinate, fat, dry. When people don't have the capacity to see and judge character you replace an accurate evaluation with adjectives. It's a dangerous and evasive way to start, and always a red flag for me when a guy starts off his description of a girl with such a list. Just look through here and you will see the posts from the guys with the absolute worst situations and have their heads buried in the sand always start like this.

2. She wants to get married in 2-3 years. What a load of bullshit. A girl who wants to get married should want to do so somewhere between NOW and the next reasonable wedding season or date. 2-3 years down the road (for a 25 year old virgin) is forever and ever from now and may never happen. It says nothing but keeping options open but never getting to the point.

3. This religion thing. Decide what you want and how you want your kids raised. I don't think you are telling us the whole story. I smell a culty branch of xyz religion. Go investigate this church of hers, because if you engage her to marry you are marring this church too.

4. At 24 with no life experience she is willing to brush off your going out with other women? You will pay for this later.

So there are the first few big red flags that some anonymous guy on the internet sees in your writing, and none of them are in your red flag list.

You had nothing to break up with because you never had her (sex). You never made her your woman. You made other women your playthings (cool) while pedestalizing the virgin. This is a construct in your heads. Your "questions" aren't the right ones because not one of them start with "What do I want out of life?"

[Jetset]

My first question is "why does she want to marry you"?

You're banging other women, she isn't banging you. She wants to marry in "years". Why is no other man of her own religion trying to marry her? Why is she turning you into her project?

I sense trouble that we do not see.

[rudebwoy]

Don't do it.

I don't see any red flags with her.

Your far too young and need to experience life (other women).

I know many guys will disagree with me, but you don't find many girls like your girlfriend these days. Chances are when you are 34/35 you will not find a virgin, unless you look far and wide.

[Know1234]

(05-31-2017 10:59 PM)Travesty Wrote:  

Tough decision.

If her mom and other female relatives have aged well then I say it is worth considering.

Right now though on what you said my vote is to move on.

You will have to go with your gut in the end though.

The one defining trait to look at is in you know beyond doubt she is a ride or die bitch for you and has your best interests at heart. If that falters even slightly the answer should be no.

We haven't faced any serious challenges in our relationship up until this point so it would be hard to judge if she really is a ride or die chick. My gut tells me that she is.

She is surrounded by several long lasting marriages in her church. Also we have had several serious conversations where she speaks highly of women who don't divorce their husbands when things get tough. There is a lady at her church who stuck by her husbands side when he became mentally ill and lost his job etc.

The fact that she looks up to such women and is surrounded by them makes me think that she would stay if things went south with me down the line.

[Know1234]

(05-31-2017 11:05 PM)BassPlayaYo Wrote:  

I would say if you both share the same vision of where you want your lives to go you have a good chance of it working. The caveat is that you're still young and 10 years from now you may be thinking an entirely different way about a lot of things and she will as well.

Oh just caught this: 25 year old virgin?! You have to wait until you're married to get some pussy?! Come on man! Don't waste your time, unless of course she's rich.

I agree with your first point - I will definitely mature and change in the next 10 years. Will also have more options due to stability & money, but she is a good catch in my mind and that's why I'm trying to weigh the pros & cons of what to do next.

I would like my future wife to be a virgin, so I value her virginity. And I do play on the side with other women so I am not foregoing sex altogether before marriage.

She's not rich - lower middle class to middle class at best.

[Know1234]

(06-01-2017 12:16 AM)Suits Wrote:  

(05-31-2017 10:38 PM)Know1234 Wrote:  

- She sobbed, wailed & cried for a while when I told her that I need time to think this over.

Don't do it.

To clarify, she was crying because I was breaking up with her to do some thinking on my own.

She has told me several times that although she would like to get married now - she is willing to work with my timeline (within a 2-3 year time frame) because she understands that I'm too young to be married at 24.

[Know1234]

(06-01-2017 12:21 AM)wi30 Wrote:  

Are you at least getting blowjobs?

No, she doesn't want to before marriage. I haven't pushed her on it because I find it easier to step out and get other girls who are willing to do so without any commitment.

[Jetset]

(06-01-2017 12:00 PM)Know1234 Wrote:  

(06-01-2017 12:21 AM)wi30 Wrote:  

Are you at least getting blowjobs?

No, she doesn't want to before marriage. I haven't pushed her on it because I find it easier to step out and get other girls who are willing to do so without any commitment.

There are obviously cultural and religious differences here, but it is my belief that after several years of being with you, if she hasn't "slipped" and lost her virginity to you, she just doesn't have much of a sex drive. Are you prepared for this possibility?

There's something weird going on here that doesn't add up, because she seems to be making many concessions to be with you - including waiting out nearly the entirety of her 20s without getting any dick. That's just unnatural. I say again, why isn't someone else trying to marry her? What do you put on the table that she is holding out for, exactly? Is it possible that the single men in her church know something about her that you don't?

There are no free lunches. True story: I met a 26-year-old virgin once. She was nerdy and didn't seem to know much about dating, but she was very sweet and had a nice body. She had only given a few blowjobs and was eager to lose her virginity. I had already taken her virginity and cum all over her again that night before she confessed that she was wearing a wig and had no natural hair. The last guy she had gotten close to bailed when she told him and she was ready to get laid but had been too scared to tell me. It was a very good wig. I hadn't even noticed. The moral of this story: there is always something going on if nature hasn't taken its course.

[Know1234]

(06-01-2017 12:49 AM)Leonard D Neubache Wrote:  

As one of the more pro-marriage voices on the forum I'm still leaning towards "no, don't do it".

You've already placed your future value above hers, which will only get lower as time goes by, and on top of that you admit openly that you haven't had your fill of the world yet.

This has little if nothing to do with who she is and everything to do with who you are.

Thank you, that's a very insightful comment.

Regarding me getting my "fill of the world" - I do feel I'm fairly inexperienced when it comes to travel, lifestyle and major life decisions.

As I had mentioned, I would not have even considered marriage before 30 - but I find her to be very different from the vast majority of women I see & hear around me and in the media.

My indecisiveness stems from letting her go and then never finding someone of the same caliber.

It is also my first serious relationship / break up.

[Know1234]

(06-01-2017 12:09 PM)Jetset Wrote:  

(06-01-2017 12:00 PM)Know1234 Wrote:  

(06-01-2017 12:21 AM)wi30 Wrote:  

Are you at least getting blowjobs?

No, she doesn't want to before marriage. I haven't pushed her on it because I find it easier to step out and get other girls who are willing to do so without any commitment.

There are obviously cultural and religious differences here, but it is my belief that after several years of being with you, if she hasn't "slipped" and lost her virginity to you, she just doesn't have much of a sex drive. Are you prepared for this possibility?

There's something weird going on here that doesn't add up, because she seems to be making many concessions to be with you - including waiting out nearly the entirety of her 20s without getting any dick. That's just unnatural. I say again, why isn't someone else trying to marry her? What do you put on the table that she is holding out for, exactly? Is it possible that the single men in her church know something about her that you don't?

There are no free lunches. True story: I met a 26-year-old virgin once. She was nerdy and didn't seem to know much about dating, but she was very sweet and had a nice body. She had only given a few blowjobs and was eager to lose her virginity. I had already taken her virginity and cum all over her again that night before she confessed that she was wearing a wig and had no natural hair. It was a very good wig. I hadn't even noticed. The moral of this story: there is always something going on if nature hasn't taken its course.

During the beginning of the relationship, we did fool around and she had / has a pretty high sex drive. I've "played" with her vagina enough times to know that she also orgasms much more easily than most other girls I've been with. As she became more religious and emotionally attached to me she started to not want to do these things before a commitment was made (this is in the past few months). I didn't mind too much because I had other women on the side.

She also told me several times that she doesn't believe in rape in a marriage. And that sexually satisfying her husband is what the church & Bible both teach. So I don't see much of an issue there.

I do see your point about her making many concessions. We do have a strong emotional bond, so I have been chalking it up to that.

To answer your questions about why someone else isn't trying to marry her - she was engaged to a 40-something year old man 3 years ago. She broke it off because she did not want to convert to his religion. He still hits her up from time to time...

She also doesn't go out to bars, clubs etc - she mostly spends her time at church, home with her sisters and with her cousins so doesn't meet too many men in her day to day. Social media presence is very limited as well.

Her church doesn't have many single men - it's mostly old people, women and families. The young men at her church that I have seen are mostly "nice guys" and it did not seem like she was attracted to them.

What do I bring to the table? I work in sales so I do well financially. I don't discuss money with her but she can see I'm ambitious, hard working, willing to lead her, buy her things from time to time and always cover the bill whenever we go out. I think she does see a provider in me.

Man, your story about that chick with the wig is crazy - but I guess it could have been a lot worse...

[astro]

She's older than you? Pfft. Work on yourself until mid/late 30s then scoop up an early 20s gal who wants to have kids and be a stay at home mom. You'll thank yourself later.

[Jean Valjean]

(06-01-2017 12:11 PM)Know1234 Wrote:  

Thank you, that's a very insightful comment.

Regarding me getting my "fill of the world" - I do feel I'm fairly inexperienced when it comes to travel, lifestyle and major life decisions.

As I had mentioned, I would not have even considered marriage before 30 - but I find her to be very different from the vast majority of women I see & hear around me and in the media.

My indecisiveness stems from letting her go and then never finding someone of the same caliber.

It is also my first serious relationship / break up.

This is why "AWALT," "special snowflakes," and "one-itis" get mentioned so much in the manosphere. Women cultivate an illusion of being different than other girls, and they listen to you talk about what you want in a girl and try to present themselves as being that girl. Even guys who have fallen for it once have to be on their guard against falling for it again, because it can be really tempting to fill in the gaps of what you don't know about her with fantasy and promises.

A better woman can always be found. On the other hand, those girls who have some unusually good traits usually also have some unusually bad traits too.

You mention she's not on social media, which is one major plus. Can she cook?

The median age of Indian women is 28.3. When she's at the age at which she has in mind marrying you, there will be millions of girls 10 years younger than her coming on the market. Although Travesty raises a good point about how you can take your cue from looking at how her mother has aged.

[kaotic]

This isn't tough to me at all.

There are some really great questions posed by RVF members here.

You're WAY too young to be thinking about marriage.

YOU always come first, everyone else secondary. If you can't take care of yourself, you can't take care of others.

You need to focus on yourself, get your mind/money/life right.

I highly advise against marrying this woman.

A few things to remind you that stuck out to me as well:

You haven't fucked her yet, 2 years and no sex with her, you have no idea how she'll be in bed.

You've told her you'll be getting side action, but completely deny that you do (as has been said, you'll pay for this later).

If you marry this chick, you'll probably regret it and be unhappy, with that will come more cheating/and or divorce, which will become a shit show.

Never ever underestimate the ability of a woman making your life a living hell, no matter how submissive and sweet she is.