[nek]

(05-29-2017 02:48 PM)Belgrano Wrote:  

This just shows in what an unnatural, degenerate, decaying, unsustainable and broken down system Western man live in.

Think about it, based on the current legal rules and regulations an environment is created where the clearly most successful, the most attractive, the best looking and most intelligent, in short, the fittest men are relentlessly incentivized to procreate as little as possible, to the point of sterilizing themselves just to be on the safe side.

Truly perverse.

To be fair though, this is only a concern because they're participating in it too. If they wanted to settle down they probably could, but they want to take part in the decadence as well. The incentive to procreate as little as possible is due to their own desires. Nothing is stopping them from finding a woman and committing to having a family and as many kids as they want. They just want to keep the party going.

[Transsimian]

I used to think cryopreserving your sperm before the snip would give you the best of both worlds, but I found out frozen sperm has a limited shelf life.

[Excelsior]

(05-29-2017 03:01 PM)nek Wrote:  

(05-29-2017 02:48 PM)Belgrano Wrote:  

This just shows in what an unnatural, degenerate, decaying, unsustainable and broken down system Western man live in.

Think about it, based on the current legal rules and regulations an environment is created where the clearly most successful, the most attractive, the best looking and most intelligent, in short, the fittest men are relentlessly incentivized to procreate as little as possible, to the point of sterilizing themselves just to be on the safe side.

Truly perverse.

To be fair though, this is only a concern because they're participating in it too. If they wanted to settle down they probably could, but they want to take part in the decadence as well. The incentive to procreate as little as possible is due to their own desires. Nothing is stopping them from finding a woman and committing to having a family and as many kids as they want. They just want to keep the party going.

Largely true though, in their defence, society does have some structural problems (ex: no-fault divorce culture, conscious de-emphasis of traditional family structure, punitive child support/alimony laws, etc) that don't do much to incentive these men to settle down and make things much harder for those men who actually do.

[Dan Woolf]

Even after a vasectomy, they can still harvest sperm form your testicles for in vitro fertilization. So basically even if you have had a vasectomy and the sperm bank forgets to pay their electricity bill, you can still have kids without going through the reversal surgery (which might not even work).

Of course it's not the same as blasting a load inside your woman and getting her pregnant that way but still.

[rudebwoy]

Deep down those guys don't care about having kids.

They live in a world class city, which gives them loads of "different" options for dating women from around the globe. Your not going to get that variety in other places, certainly not Zagreb.

It is up for debate whether they will get top tier gals in many other countries, even with money.

I have met many girls in my travels, their dream was to visit NYC.

America isn't for me, I like being safe and secure and not having to fight someone because of my look. I can appreciate the opportunities it can offer you to make money, no other place comes close.

[JohnKreese]

(05-29-2017 04:11 PM)Dan Woolf Wrote:  

Even after a vasectomy, they can still harvest sperm form your testicles for in vitro fertilization. So basically even if you have had a vasectomy and the sperm bank forgets to pay their electricity bill, you can still have kids without going through the reversal surgery (which might not even work).

Of course it's not the same as blasting a load inside your woman and getting her pregnant that way but still.

If this happens, the money you'd make from the ensuing lawsuit would more than make up for a life without kids.

[Simeon_Strangelight]

Note how the article mentions that some women don't even have the intention of getting pregnant. They hold the early pregnancy to extract a ransom from the man.

"Give me 1 mio. $ or I will get pregnant with your kid!"

But I am pretty sure that many women past a certain age do indeed want to have a baby with a well-off man. This is also a sign of harder economic times and the ever slimmer middle class.

Though as others have noted - bitches entrap even total losers who are sitting in jail, but I doubt that these are the same demographics and they have the same reasons for doing it.

As a side note - I know some older Playboys in their 60s who taunt women that way and lead by: "Wanna have a first kid with me? You will be set for life." Of course some of them are shooting blanks which is funny.

[Excelsior]

(05-29-2017 04:11 PM)Dan Woolf Wrote:  

Even after a vasectomy, they can still harvest sperm form your testicles for in vitro fertilization. So basically even if you have had a vasectomy and the sperm bank forgets to pay their electricity bill, you can still have kids without going through the reversal surgery (which might not even work).

Of course it's not the same as blasting a load inside your woman and getting her pregnant that way but still.

That's a very valid point, although it still goes back to the statements I made earlier about giving up your capacity to procreate absent artificial means.
That process also isn't necessarily cheap or simple, although these men have enough money to make it doable.

(05-29-2017 04:13 PM)rudebwoy Wrote:  

Deep down those guys don't care about having kids.

This is true, and I think it is the main point of departure for those who are vigorous supporters of the vasectomy approach and those who are wary. Siring children (and, in particular, siring a relatively large number of children) just isn't that important to them, hence the willingness to jeopardize their ability to do it.

And that's fine. Different strokes for different folks.

My main issue is that people who maybe are on the fence and/or just aren't sure (might actually want the chance to have a ton of kids in the future, but are still wary of the risks they deal with now and know a vasectomy can deal with those risks in the short term) not feel compelled to take the sterilization path without evaluating options that give them the freedom to avoid that.

Quote:

They live in a world class city, which gives them loads of "different" options for dating women from around the globe. Your not going to get that variety in other places, certainly not Zagreb.

It is up for debate whether they will get top tier gals in many other countries, even with money.

I have met many girls in my travels, their dream was to visit NYC.

There are top-tier women all over the world. NYC is remarkable in large part because it has an unusually high concentration of them, but they are far from exclusive to that locale. For every top model chick who makes it out of the Balkans to go pro in NYC, there are 2 or 3 more beautiful girls who don't make it and remain stuck in Croatia/Slovenia/Bosnia/etc, going about normal lives or sticking to local modeling careers while cultivating day jobs.

Bad chicks are everywhere, you just have to be willing to find them. Cash makes that process much easier.

Quote:

America isn't for me, I like being safe and secure and not having to fight someone because of my look. I can appreciate the opportunities it can offer you to make money, no other place comes close.

Indeed, America is the best place to make large amounts of money.

I am not convinced that it is the best place to enjoy it.

(05-29-2017 04:14 PM)JohnKreese Wrote:  

(05-29-2017 04:11 PM)Dan Woolf Wrote:  

Even after a vasectomy, they can still harvest sperm form your testicles for in vitro fertilization. So basically even if you have had a vasectomy and the sperm bank forgets to pay their electricity bill, you can still have kids without going through the reversal surgery (which might not even work).

Of course it's not the same as blasting a load inside your woman and getting her pregnant that way but still.

If this happens, the money you'd make from the ensuing lawsuit would more than make up for a life without kids.

That is debatable and will likely vary depending on an individual's priorities.

Speaking for myself, for example, I don't think there is an amount of money that would make up for a life absent the ability to sire my own children. Such an ability is just too fundamentally important to me to be compensated for. I would never feel whole, even if you paid me $100 Million for the mishandled sperm. There's just no "making up" for that kind of thing in my book.

Others put less of a priority on fatherhood, so for them perhaps compensation is viable and you could "make up" for such a loss with certain sum of money. But this is far from an objective point.

[christpuncher]

Can't help but think that men who worry too much about this have an aversion to offending a woman's "honour", out of a fear of a diminished likelihood of the repeat bang. They are unable to unapologetically sack up and control his own nut.

1) Nut in the condom, used from the beginning or donned before the end after going raw for the majority, and immediately flush it.

2) Go for the mouth and make her swallow. If she freaks out and spits or runs for the bathroom, follow her unapologetically.

3) Bust on her body, and personally wipe up with Kleenex and maybe even wet wipes, flush them.

Men who don't follow these rules are either trying to have a child, or are afraid of hurting the woman's feelings and deserve whatever comes (heh) of their cowardice.

I do this every single time with my gf. Probably a couple times per year she'll make a comment that I'm "very safe". We all know what's up. Don't​ back down. Obviously anything more than infrequent casual mentioning from her of your tight nut-chain-of-custody deserves a hard nexting.

One time about two years ago I put the condom in a ONS's garbage can because the bathroom was all the way downstairs... Spent three months fretting about it afterwards. My life would be a constant state of stress if I didn't follow the rules 99.9% of the time.

[rudebwoy]

^In the Balkans you will only find those type of girls, mostly Slavic.

In NYC you will find Slavic, Black, Latino, Asian and pretty much everything that meets your fancy.

The variety also applies to many other things like restaurants for example, I don't recall seeing a sushi restaurant when I was Zagreb. You can forget about all the other "ethnic" foods that are available in NYC. As a guy with money I am probably not eating at Chipotle for dinner, it would be at some Michelin rated restaurant.

Having lived in London and been to NYC numerous times, people generally don't like leaving those cities. For guys like these that are living the high life, uprooting and going to some "foreign" country is the last thing on their mind.

The grass isn't always greener on the other side.

One RVFer wrote a nice book about his time living in the DR. His girlfriend was plotting to kill him over a few thousand dollars.

[Sebastian]

A place like Hampton would be more fierce than good clubs in LA. Do you think he will complain about women are so snobby here and go somewhere else? It's all about competence

[SlickyBoy]

(05-29-2017 09:38 AM)kosko Wrote:  

One interesting thing I noticed about the article, which is basically a condensed summary of game if you think about it. The one thing was how the male model even with his money and status is still pulling a healthy game average of 2.5 girls per month. We would all assume he is drowning in pussy but this guy still bats average like the rest. Now mind you his selection will be better and maybe he needs less work to bed broads but he is still stepping up the the plate and getting contact with the same averages of most seasoned men.

In my experience during my "hot streaks" of hitting the pavement hard with game, my best month was I think 7 or 8 girls. To get to the number though was hell as I literally was out almost every night in bars, doing dates in between, blowing money, getting little sleep, and overall not really getting anything aside from nuts busted.

A number of 2.5 per month would keep me happy and healthy and would still provide enough time to balance important things like work, hustles, and hobbies. My point is I just wonder if there truly is a magic number for the return on new pussy before you start to degress with things.

That's what led me to believe the examples cited in the article are made up. Sure, there are guys who get vasectomies in that situation, but I don't believe for a minute that some fat SJW troll writer ever met one in her short unfortunate life. They're nothing but imaginary plot devices.

[WalterBlack]

Every time I bang a woman wrapped up, after I've come I pull out and make sure the condom is still on my dick after it's gone soft. I then walk straight to bathroom, flush the condom down the toilet, and I wash my dick and take a piss. Am I alone in doing this?

[Leonard D Neubache]

Back in the day 'twas the one thing I flushed down the toilet even though I wasn't supposed to. Used to have to wrap the damn things in toilet paper to make sure they went down the first time and stayed down.

Even back then in the blue pill days when I was poor as fuck I still knew that girls were crazy enough to do shit that made no sense whatsoever, like deciding that my broke ass was "the one" and inseminating themselves with my jizz on the sly.

There was one girlfriend who asked me during the afterglow what I did with the condom after sex and despite her best effort at sounding casually curious there was that slight lilt in her voice that had me headed for the door.

Don't underestimate the base biological urges of women coupled with their incapacity for responsible decision making.

[bacon]

(05-29-2017 03:10 PM)Transsimian Wrote:  

I used to think cryopreserving your sperm before the snip would give you the best of both worlds, but I found out frozen sperm has a limited shelf life.

This is wrong.

Quote:

Sperm cells have been frozen, thawed and successfully used in treatment for more than 40 years

[scorpion]

Very good, men. Voluntarily neuter yourselves and spend all your masculine energy on fucking trashy gold-digging sluts, on acquiring the money that will allow you to fuck trashy gold-digging sluts, and on coming up with carefully concocted stratagems (up to and including voluntary sterilization) to ensure that fucking trashy gold-digging sluts will be as devoid of consequence as possible. Don't waste time with the traditions of your ancestors. Don't think about your responsibilities as men to both the future and the past, to those who came before you and those who will come after. Focus entirely on yourself, and especially on the the careful management and maintenance of the excretions from your erect penis, being forever aware of the potential horror of accidentally impregnating the trashy gold-digging sluts you enjoy carousing with. You were blessed with an excellent education, an IQ over 130, good health and an extremely high income. And the most important thing for you to do with this good fortune is to have meaningless drug and alcohol-fueled sex with as many trashy gold-digging sluts as possible during summertime in the Hamptons. This is obviously the pinnacle of masculine achievement. Your great-grandfather many generations back who sailed across the Atlantic on the Mayflower, endured many harsh winters, the deaths of several of his children, and a general state of privation that none of us could fathom, and yet who still never lost sight of his faith in God or sense of duty and purpose in life, would no doubt be very proud of your Hamptons summertime sexploits. I mean, you managed to have sexual intercourse with multiple slutty women. Quite the accomplishment, right? Something to be proud of and base one's existence on, certainly. Sterilization and the death of your genetic legacy, the termination of countless generations of struggle, faith, devotion, love and sacrifice? Such a small price to pay in order that you might pursue your desire for casual sex with reckless abandon. Sure, your ancestors endured hardships like death, disease, famine, religious persecution, war and similar misfortunes. But I mean...could they even conceive of the awfulness of losing 10% of your income? Of having to be responsible for another human being besides yourself? Of not being able to have sex with trashy gold-digging sluts in the Hamptons with total impunity? No - surely these are the worst and most challenging of times. Millionaires like you are left with no alternative. You must self-sterilize. Your ancestors would understand. After all, they persevered through unimaginable hardship for one reason: to ensure that one day their descendants would be free to have consequence-free casual sex with trashy gold-digging sluts. Godspeed, ye neutered conquerers, you last and greatest of men.

[The Lizard of Oz]

scorpion, are you saying these dudes need to ***man up*** and marry that unicorn, or else? Is that what this shaming post is about?

Apparently this is the one thing on which everyone agrees these days: that there is nothing worse and more terminally "meaningless" than the ability of a man of means to enjoy fucking some juicy young or not so young slut of his choosing with IMPUNITY. It's quite interesting that both the radical feminists and the self-styled tradcon scolds regard that simple and innocent pursuit as the epitome of all evil -- as the one thing that must be shamed out of existence and under duress if necessary. It should give you pause -- although it doesn't -- that the essence of this post can appear with only very slight alterations on the pages of Jezebel. Some of the emphases would change but its central shaming thrust directed at these men would remain exactly the same. And for what?

For nothing more -- in reality -- than daring to use such means as are at their disposal to enjoy their lives a little in a society that is dead set upon destroying them and denying them that enjoyment at every turn. You know full well that this is a society that is hungry to throw any of these men in prison on a false rape accusation, to take away all of their hard earned money (and these men work hard) in a despicable divorce court, to rob them of their children and their assets and their freedom of speech at every opportunity. But now they must also be shamed by their supposed brothers for having a little summer fun where they can find it? That is too much; this forum should not stand for this kind of shaming. It is wrong, and it is indeed, in my opinion, immoral -- if anything is.

It is wrong to use eloquence and rhetoric in a way that is so cheap and easy, and so divorced from facts and reality, so ideologically besotted and frictionless. It amounts to abuse and it misleads impressionable young men who are beset and buffeted in so many ways already. Let's look at the facts. Many of the men described in this article already have children; many more of them perform these vasectomies as reversible procedures (which they usually are, even though there are risks); still others freeze sperm as a precaution.

And for those who are not interested in having children, what of it? I wrote in another thread that most men should eventually marry and have kids, and this is true -- true because it is a basic natural need for MOST men; but MOST is not ALL. Some men -- a minority -- are born to be confirmed bachelors, and there is nothing wrong with that; let them enjoy it for what it's worth. The idea that that is some sort of moral failing is pure nonsense; and in the context of a society that makes the life of a normal man as difficult as possible at every turn, it is a particularly unfortunate and distorting kind of nonsense. It should not be allowed to go unchallenged.

Lastly, what is this tic about always calling sex "meaningless"? As the G Manifesto might say these days, when you hear someone speak about "meaningless sex" you are no longer talking to a man, you're talking to soy. Fucking bitches is what men do if and when they feel like doing so, it is not "empty" or "meaningless", it's just a part of life like the air we breathe and the bread we eat. This whole harping on supposed "meaninglessness" is a form of metaphysical Tourette's, it is an ingrate's obsession with maligning a part of life because he wants things to conform to some thinly construed rigors and ideals rather than let them be as they are. It has neither truth nor profundity, it is just glum chatter and is itself empty of all real content. But it has the power to dazzle the impressionable young that are looking for direction and guidance and they deserve better than this glib ideological blather.

There are real lives of real men involved here. We should be more measured with our words and more modest as well -- less drunk on the cheap high of ideology and more honest, more practical, more responsive to reality as it is. That's what this forum is for.

[GlobalMan]

(05-29-2017 10:51 PM)The Lizard of Oz Wrote:  

Lastly, what is this tic about always calling sex "meaningless"? As the G Manifesto might say these days, when you hear someone speak about "meaningless sex" you are no longer talking to a man, you're talking to soy. Fucking bitches is what men do if and when they feel like doing so, it is not "empty" or "meaningless", it's just a part of life like the air we breathe and the bread we eat. This whole harping on supposed "meaninglessness" is a form of metaphysical Tourette's, it is an ingrate's obsession with maligning a part of life because he wants things to conform to some thinly construed rigors and ideals rather than let them be as they are.

Indeed, this is one of the most unhealthy (in all meanings of the word) and most unfortunate ideas that occasionally pops up here - from different sources and through a surprising variety of idealogical veils - but is universally sad; it is an idea that attempts to take away or dismiss what is perhaps the most simple, important and uncomplicated of happinesses a man can have. This is even worse, if that is possible, in a time when the happinesses available to men can come fewer and farther between, being squeezed from all sides.

It reminds me of recent thread wherein the poster argues - ostensibly based on Buddhism - that a mans sexual desire to bed many women is a "problem" to be "solved", ultimately "meaningless", and if he can only curtail this terrible urge he will find all the "right" kinds of happinesses.

No matter the source, it seems the thrust behind these assertions is to create this supposed "meaninglessness" in order for it to be true and fit in their ideology. It's not - as they would claim - merely some objective recognition of what is supposedly already there.

(05-29-2017 10:51 PM)The Lizard of Oz Wrote:  

As the G Manifesto might say these days, when you hear someone speak about "meaningless sex" you are no longer talking to a man, you're talking to soy.

[url=https://twitter.com/MichaelPorfirio/status/869324781342031873][/url]

[Simeon_Strangelight]

I must agree with Lizard of Oz and differ with Scorpion.

I get it that the men don't create anything grand and have a family.

But note that the sexual market was destroyed by the globalist social engineers and then the very enthusiastic women first.

What would happen if you had a conservative resurgence and the divorce laws change? Also suddenly 18yo women instead of end 20s or 30-35yo carousel riders wanted to settle down with a Hamptons man? What if they started to adhere to the old old set of rules and regarded marriage as for life and wanted to have 2 children with that man before they were 25?

I can guarantee you what would happen - that man would ditch his oversupply of 25-35yo sluts and marry that 18yo girl.

We are living in a society where women are told to go wild at ages of 18-26 at the very least. The age group that is looking forward to be "gold-spermed" is usually 25+ and mostly rather nearing 30 or over 30. Most of the female office oversupply from New York and city girls is post-collage in the full Sex and The City drive. It takes only some 2-4 years for them to realize that this lifestyle is tougher than it seems and far less fun.

Those men react to the world and the stimuli given. They react rationally to the changes in the sexual market that the women unwittingly created with their behavior:

1960s:


Where are the women? Pregnant and barefoot at home - almost all of them married at ages of 18-24.

These are pics from commuting men in the very same city.

Give the men incentives, raise fatherhood, destroy old marriage law, tell women to start looking for Mr. Right at age 18 and not 28, then I am sure those men would settle down faster. Also the number of easy access sluts will markedly decrease - which is fine, there were more prostitutes in the past in the US.

[Leonard D Neubache]

(05-29-2017 09:45 PM)scorpion Wrote:  

Very good, men. Voluntarily neuter yourselves and spend all your masculine energy on fucking trashy gold-digging sluts...

...Godspeed, ye neutered conquerers, you last and greatest of men.

Translation: "I'm personally ready for fatherhood and on that basis everyone no matter how young and free should instantly grow up, sacrifice their life goals and shackle themselves to the oars of the West.

Sounds reasonable.

[Dan Woolf]

(05-29-2017 10:51 PM)The Lizard of Oz Wrote:  

I wrote in another thread that most men should eventually marry and have kids, and this is true -- true because it is a basic natural need for MOST men

Slight correction: monogamy and child-rearing are not natural to men. Men are wired to impregnate every fertile woman in their vicinity, then chop down a tree, build a raft, sail across the sea to a new world, then impregnate every fertile woman living there, then dig up some metals from the ground, build a space ship, fly to another planet and impregnate every fertile woman of that planet.

Otherwise a great post.

[Simeon_Strangelight]

(05-30-2017 06:33 AM)Dan Woolf Wrote:  

(05-29-2017 10:51 PM)The Lizard of Oz Wrote:  

I wrote in another thread that most men should eventually marry and have kids, and this is true -- true because it is a basic natural need for MOST men

Slight correction: monogamy and child-rearing are not natural to men. Men are wired to impregnate every fertile woman in their vicinity, then chop down a tree, build a raft, sail across the sea to a new world, then impregnate every fertile woman living there, then dig up some metals from the ground, build a space ship, fly to another planet and impregnate every fertile woman of that planet.

Otherwise a great post.

Our basic instincts have to take a backseat when it comes to civilization building. Monogamous marriage with every man having a stable family is the best option. A society can always have a few sluts and prostitutes around to take care for extra needs.

We men roll back some of our basic instincts and women take back some of theirs - for example their lot would be satisfied to pair only with the top 20% of men and leave the other 80% completely pussy-less. If they could get away with it and their children were taken care of, then women would do it.

But we know how those societies end up - they were all conquered by the stable one-man-one-woman-one-family society. And don't get me started here about "successful" polygamous societies that are warlike. Their system is very unstable and prevents higher rise of civilization.

[Dan Woolf]

(05-30-2017 06:42 AM)Zelcorpion Wrote:  

(05-30-2017 06:33 AM)Dan Woolf Wrote:  

(05-29-2017 10:51 PM)The Lizard of Oz Wrote:  

I wrote in another thread that most men should eventually marry and have kids, and this is true -- true because it is a basic natural need for MOST men

Slight correction: monogamy and child-rearing are not natural to men. Men are wired to impregnate every fertile woman in their vicinity, then chop down a tree, build a raft, sail across the sea to a new world, then impregnate every fertile woman living there, then dig up some metals from the ground, build a space ship, fly to another planet and impregnate every fertile woman of that planet.

Otherwise a great post.

Our basic instincts have to take a backseat when it comes to civilization building. Monogamous marriage with every man having a stable family is the best option. A society can always have a few sluts and prostitutes around to take care for extra needs.

We men roll back some of our basic instincts and women take back some of theirs - for example their lot would be satisfied to pair only with the top 20% of men and leave the other 80% completely pussy-less. If they could get away with it and their children were taken care of, then women would do it.

But we know how those societies end up - they were all conquered by the stable one-man-one-woman-one-family society. And don't get me started here about "successful" polygamous societies that are warlike. Their system is very unstable and prevents higher rise of civilization.

I know all that and I agree with you. But as I said, monogamy is not natural to men. Men don't have a natural need to have a nuclear family unlike scorpion said.

[rudebwoy]

Some of these stories reminds me what happened in the NBA. The league took measures to "educate" the rookies about having sex with groupies.
Many of these groupies were using the technique of getting the condom after sex, then impregnating themselves.

Being in my late 40s, I have only recently had the desire to produce kids. It is a shocking change to myself as I thought this would never happen.

If I were these guys in their late 20s making serious dough. Kids would be a huge liability and quite frankly put a big damper on my lifestyle.

Never mind the fact you are knocking up some girl, you give zero fucks about. I know cats who did that, they have been bitter ever since.

To each is own I say.

[DarkTriad]

(05-29-2017 03:59 PM)Excelsior Wrote:  

(05-29-2017 03:01 PM)nek Wrote:  

(05-29-2017 02:48 PM)Belgrano Wrote:  

This just shows in what an unnatural, degenerate, decaying, unsustainable and broken down system Western man live in.

Think about it, based on the current legal rules and regulations an environment is created where the clearly most successful, the most attractive, the best looking and most intelligent, in short, the fittest men are relentlessly incentivized to procreate as little as possible, to the point of sterilizing themselves just to be on the safe side.

Truly perverse.

To be fair though, this is only a concern because they're participating in it too. If they wanted to settle down they probably could, but they want to take part in the decadence as well. The incentive to procreate as little as possible is due to their own desires. Nothing is stopping them from finding a woman and committing to having a family and as many kids as they want. They just want to keep the party going.

Largely true though, in their defence, society does have some structural problems (ex: no-fault divorce culture, conscious de-emphasis of traditional family structure, punitive child support/alimony laws, etc) that don't do much to incentive these men to settle down and make things much harder for those men who actually do.

This. Very difficult to keep having kids with her after you've been ejected from the family. And ejecting the father from the family is something the system is very good at.