[Celestial]

Hey everyone,

So I've been working in Silicon Valley for awhile now, and something I've been thinking about quite often are the limits for balancing money and lifestyle. I know a lot of people have written about this, but are there any hard limits for how much you're willing to sacrifice one for the benefit of the other?

As an example, let's compare money vs. lifestyle for IT workers, at each extreme. We can imagine an ordering with lifestyle decreasing as money increases:

Kiev, Ukraine (Lifestyle >>> Money):
Money : Low - Need to resort to internet, though there are local IT jobs but pay is little, ~30-40k tops in general.
Lifestyle : Amazing, beautiful city and women, many parks and restaurants, clean and safe compared to most of Europe.

Moscow, Tallinn, Bangkok, Bogota, Bucharest...

<insert many cities in between> (Warsaw might be a good midpoint)

London, Seattle, Zurich, Berlin, Los Angeles...

San Francisco Bay Area (Money >>> Lifestyle):
Money : High - Can clear 100-200k easily with salary and stocks, and can get to 300-400k+ if you're good (e.g. Netflix, Facebook Senior SWE).
Lifestyle : 3rd world cleanliness on streets, long work hours, major gender imbalance, relentlessly liberal.

My question is, when are the extremes worth it, and for how long? From what I've heard on this forum, people tend to start at the bottom of this list (Money > Lifestyle) when they're young then move upwards (Lifestyle > Money), but at the same time we are at out peak energy/youth when younger rather than older.

While I'm still young (mid 20's), I've become largely demotivated due to the Bay Area and how little it offers for someone my age outside of money. I am wondering at which point I should transition towards lifestyle, and whether it should be done from one extreme to the other or more gradual.

[BB1]

(02-03-2017 09:00 PM)Celestial Wrote:  

Kiev, Ukraine (Lifestyle >>> Money):
Money : Low - Need to resort to internet, though there are local IT jobs but pay is little, ~30-40k tops in general.
Lifestyle : Amazing, beautiful city and women, many parks and restaurants, clean and safe compared to most of Europe.

Have you ever been to Kiev?

There is no way I would say it has an amazing lifestyle, no matter how many quality bangs I got there.

[Celestial]

(02-03-2017 10:32 PM)BB1 Wrote:  

(02-03-2017 09:00 PM)Celestial Wrote:  

Kiev, Ukraine (Lifestyle >>> Money):
Money : Low - Need to resort to internet, though there are local IT jobs but pay is little, ~30-40k tops in general.
Lifestyle : Amazing, beautiful city and women, many parks and restaurants, clean and safe compared to most of Europe.

Have you ever been to Kiev?

There is no way I would say it has an amazing lifestyle, no matter how many quality bangs I got there.

Yes, I was there for two months. The lifestyle is good if you are making an IT salary, which I said above. With that you can afford to live near Shevchenko, Teatralna or Arsenalna, all of which are nice.

You do have a point though, if you are making UAH and live near the furthest metro stations, then it's pretty bad. But I'm assuming an IT salary here.

[Peregrine]

In terms of money, it's more helpful to think in terms of "annual expenses saved per year worked". Let's say you spend 50k a year and make 200k after-tax. You'd be saving three years of expenses per year worked. I bring this up because 100 to 200k is not that much in SF due to the high cost of living.

Back to your question, I think a man should prioritize money in his 20's. You do it right and you're on easy street for the rest of your life. 30 is not too late to start enjoying life.

[samsamsam]

Get the nest egg while you can and when you are able to handle the work. Things change when you get older. I have no desire to work until 3AM any more.

There is an expression that I always think of when it comes to money and advice.

Work now, play later.
Play now, work later.
Whatever you do last, you do longest.

[zatara]

If you've been working in SV for a while do you have a decent chunk of savings? If so, you're in your mid 20s. Quit, go traveling/working independently for a few years. Something new will either fall into place along the way, or you can come back to SV in your late 20s and settle back into your career. If you've got a decent job now you'll get another one then no problem.

I completely disagree with the people saying spend your 20s working. Your 20s are the best social life years of your life - your friends still aren't married with kids, you'll have people to travel with, every week there are loads of parties etc. And when you travel you'll actually be able to relate and make friends with the other travelers you meet along the way too, almost all of whom will be 18-30. Which is very important for your own enjoyment.

Girl wise, in your 20s you can still bang girls from 18-50 with no real restrictions. If you work till you're 35/40 you're no longer going to be able to just hit up college bars whenever you feel like fucking a 20 year old girl on a Thursday night. Or go to the many, many big travel 'events' like Spring Break, the Full Moon Party in Thailand, island hop in Greece etc where you'll stand out like a sore thumb as the creepy old dude.

The best career path I've seen for the average person is good college + good grad school, get into a good career and work in it for 2/3 years and save. This leaves you at 25ish, you have some savings, and have enough of a solid career base to come back to in a few years time if you need it. The perfect combination of security, future potential, and youthful flexibility to go traveling/experimenting for a few years. Then settle back into a career as you near 30.

When you're 70 looking back on your 20s I'd be shocked if you regretted spending 3-5 years traveling the world, chasing strange tail, working on your own side projects/fitness (or whatever else you want to do with your free time that you're not wasting in an office) etc. The standard 9-5 career will always be there waiting, the adventure won't be.

[qwertyuiop]

(02-04-2017 08:01 AM)zatara Wrote:  

The best career path I've seen for the average person is good college + good grad school, get into a good career and work in it for 2/3 years and save. This leaves you at 25ish, you have some savings, and have enough of a solid career base to come back to in a few years time if you need it. The perfect combination of security, future potential, and youthful flexibility to go traveling/experimenting for a few years. Then settle back into a career as you near 30.

This is pretty solid & good advice. Assuming you are above average, but not some millionaire entrepreneur.

I went the engineering degree + sales route. Very flexible.

[Travesty]

I think banging as many 18-20yo girls as possible until you are 24 or 25 when it is the easiest it will ever be. Sow your oats. After that age it just gets harder with each year.

Then focus as hard as you can making money knowing you got it in all the easiest hottest bangs and that in old age you will need money and options to have the same enjoyment once you lose your youth.

I think any guy that likes the player lifestyle would be doing himself a huge disservice by not devoting a large block of time running game and banging girls in these early years... if someone chose to ignore girls during these years and settle for a few plain 6s here and there between droughts because they are working so much I would say that is a very gay gamble with your time because you would need to be worth millions or famous soon after these years to have the same ease & fun with these girls.

Once you get to late 20s - mid 30s now all those years just blend into older guy for these chicks rather than peer.

That said if you are 25-35 and never successfully gamed for a few years do it now to get the experience in.

[Off The Reservation]

(02-03-2017 09:00 PM)Celestial Wrote:  

Hey everyone,

So I've been working in Silicon Valley for awhile now, and something I've been thinking about quite often are the limits for balancing money and lifestyle. I know a lot of people have written about this, but are there any hard limits for how much you're willing to sacrifice one for the benefit of the other?

As an example, let's compare money vs. lifestyle for IT workers, at each extreme. We can imagine an ordering with lifestyle decreasing as money increases:

Kiev, Ukraine (Lifestyle >>> Money):
Money : Low - Need to resort to internet, though there are local IT jobs but pay is little, ~30-40k tops in general.
Lifestyle : Amazing, beautiful city and women, many parks and restaurants, clean and safe compared to most of Europe.

Moscow, Tallinn, Bangkok, Bogota, Bucharest...

<insert many cities in between> (Warsaw might be a good midpoint)

London, Seattle, Zurich, Berlin, Los Angeles...

San Francisco Bay Area (Money >>> Lifestyle):
Money : High - Can clear 100-200k easily with salary and stocks, and can get to 300-400k+ if you're good (e.g. Netflix, Facebook Senior SWE).
Lifestyle : 3rd world cleanliness on streets, long work hours, major gender imbalance, relentlessly liberal.

My question is, when are the extremes worth it, and for how long? From what I've heard on this forum, people tend to start at the bottom of this list (Money > Lifestyle) when they're young then move upwards (Lifestyle > Money), but at the same time we are at out peak energy/youth when younger rather than older.

While I'm still young (mid 20's), I've become largely demotivated due to the Bay Area and how little it offers for someone my age outside of money. I am wondering at which point I should transition towards lifestyle, and whether it should be done from one extreme to the other or more gradual.

What????????????

The Bay Area is one of the most exciting, dynamic, happening places in the entire world. You work in one of the most productive and innovative places anywhere. The value of simply BEING there is so high that in some places a couch is more than an apartment in the rest of the country. I know there are a lot of liberals bla bla bla.

But this isn't the problem. The problem is your epistemology.

Now look back at your quote that I put red at the top. You have this false belief that everything is some sort of dichotomy or compromise. It is a common belief that condemns men to a life of misery.

The only options you see are those of extremes. A money only place with a terrible lifestyle, an amazing lifestyle with no money. An extremely boring "balance" of compromised choices in the middle. The problem isn't geography, its between your left and right ear.

So I have no idea if you will take the long journey of learning that it takes to understand this, but maybe another young guy will read this who has already doubted the existence of such compromises and will really live well.

You think you are sucking on the gelatin casing of the outside of the red pill because you know about Eastern Europe? You aren't. You are still sucking your thumb. You are asking us to pre-excuse your failures in life before they happen, by nodding yes at your context as presented.

I am 100% sure you don't have bad intentions by your questions but I am here to say that they are false and damaging to others. A few simple facts blow apart your question. There are happy tech millionaires in Kiev, and there are happy non- libtards in Silicon Valley. You have to drop Marxist epistemology if you want the fruits of a non-Marxist result, meaning you determine the outcome of your life not some silly divided formula of pay vs lifestyle.

If the word BUT is welling up in your brain right now... I rest my case.

[Adrenaline]

Sorry Travesty but I'm gonna disagree with you on one point. 25-35 is not old and you can still pull quality young college girls even without money or fame if you stay in shape and maintain your appearance. I'll be 26 soon and pull more young girls from night game now than I did from 18-24, and I'm confident when aim 30 I'll be doing even better. You just need to stay reasonably youthful looking. Girls are terrible at guessing age anyway.

That said, I am on the have fun in your 20s bandwagon. Just make sure you have a degree in an employable field as a back up, then explore the world and trial with trying to gain location independence etc. if it doesent work out, or you get tired of it, just come back and start reignite your career at around 30.

[doc holliday]

I think guys in their 20s should be doing both. You're young, you should have a shitload of energy so you can handle working your ass off and going out to bang chicks. Problem is, too many guys in their 20s just want to party, they don't want to do what it takes to set themselves up for later in their life. They tell themselves that once they get into their 30s they'll start taking their 'careers' more seriously and slow down on the partying. Except they never do. So many younger guys cry about having no money, no opportunities but they don't want to work, they just want to show up and get paid. In your 20s, you need to do work on both.

If I were the OP, I would find a city with decent opportunities in his field that isn't a femaie desert like SF. What about a place like NY? Pussy galore and money galore. How about Miami? Or Berlin or London which you have on your list? Hong Kong? I have a good friend who is 28 who got his Phd, moved to SF, hated it so much due to it being a pussy desert, got himself transferred to NY and is loving his life now. Bottom line is that you need a balance. A pussy paradise with little opportunities to make any money is going to leave you nowhere after a few years and the other extreme of a pussy desert but boatloads of money will leave you burned out on life and depressed after a few years.

[polymath]

"Money, go do _____ for me."

The whole point of money is that it either (A) buys you something today, or (B) gives you options to buy something tomorrow.

You have to choose the lifestyle that you desire, and figure out how to bankroll it. Then cut out the chaff and extraneous spending.

For example, when I did an internship at a bank in NYC a few years ago, all of my intern classmates would go blow $400 a weekend at places like Lavo. To me, that seems like a waste, because you can spend a ton of money and still not be the big dog in the club.

I saved my money and took a trip to South America at the end of my internship. Then another one three months later. Then a third one a month later. All of this (you guessed it) bankrolled by the money I didn't spend at Lavo.

My biggest mistakes, financially, have always come from spending coin on things that don't fit my vision of a perfect lifestyle.

So the strategy is:

1) work hard
2) envision the lifestyle of your dreams
3) cut out the bullshit
4) allocate the saved cost of the bullshit to your dream life

[Celestial]

(02-04-2017 08:01 AM)zatara Wrote:  

If you've been working in SV for a while do you have a decent chunk of savings? If so, you're in your mid 20s. Quit, go traveling/working independently for a few years. Something new will either fall into place along the way, or you can come back to SV in your late 20s and settle back into your career. If you've got a decent job now you'll get another one then no problem.

I completely disagree with the people saying spend your 20s working. Your 20s are the best social life years of your life - your friends still aren't married with kids, you'll have people to travel with, every week there are loads of parties etc. And when you travel you'll actually be able to relate and make friends with the other travelers you meet along the way too, almost all of whom will be 18-30. Which is very important for your own enjoyment.

Girl wise, in your 20s you can still bang girls from 18-50 with no real restrictions. If you work till you're 35/40 you're no longer going to be able to just hit up college bars whenever you feel like fucking a 20 year old girl on a Thursday night. Or go to the many, many big travel 'events' like Spring Break, the Full Moon Party in Thailand, island hop in Greece etc where you'll stand out like a sore thumb as the creepy old dude.

The best career path I've seen for the average person is good college + good grad school, get into a good career and work in it for 2/3 years and save. This leaves you at 25ish, you have some savings, and have enough of a solid career base to come back to in a few years time if you need it. The perfect combination of security, future potential, and youthful flexibility to go traveling/experimenting for a few years. Then settle back into a career as you near 30.

When you're 70 looking back on your 20s I'd be shocked if you regretted spending 3-5 years traveling the world, chasing strange tail, working on your own side projects/fitness (or whatever else you want to do with your free time that you're not wasting in an office) etc. The standard 9-5 career will always be there waiting, the adventure won't be.

Gotcha, yeah that's the career path I've been leaning towards, i.e. getting a nest egg from Silicon Valley earning over a few years, then invest it and travel (potentially off just the returns) alone, then either find a job in a foreign country along the way or return to the US to work (albeit I'd almost surely go to NYC). Even if I fail to find a job abroad in the traveling period I still think it'd be worth it, I've already done one trip and enjoyed it immensely.

It's damn difficult to get your mind out of the 9-5 mindset from 22-65 years old that is drilled into your head when you're young, I'm trying but damn.

[Off The Reservation]

^how are you trying?

[Celestial]

(02-06-2017 11:14 PM)Off The Reservation Wrote:  

^how are you trying?

I'm trying by planning for early retirement - getting a strong nest egg and passive income streams so that the nest egg @ 4% withdrawal + passive income allows me to live in a city that is closer to my interests. So that'd be something at the minimum 500k (20k @ 4% withdrawal) + 10k in passive income streams = 30k, good for a bunch of places. Read ERE and Money Mustache blogs, bunch of super useful tips.

As far as the Bay Area, for tech it is clearly the best place in the world (maybe NYC beats it for High Freq. Trading but that's about it). Professionally I'm doing fine, it's simply the social environment which I find incredibly lacklustre. Right now I'm rolling solo for night-game and attending meetups to boost my social circle, and aside of that working pretty hard.

[texas]

Celestial, check out these blogs too. They round out the ERE/MM saving-focused blogs and give a "just earn more" perspective.

joshuakennon.com
financialsamurai.com
wallstreetplayboys.com

They have some good side income stream ideas. Maybe also consider learning another language if youre not already to add another dimension to social interactions/opportunities.

[christpuncher]

(02-06-2017 11:52 PM)texas Wrote:  

Celestial, check out these blogs too. They round out the ERE/MM saving-focused blogs and give a "just earn more" perspective.

joshuakennon.com
financialsamurai.com
wallstreetplayboys.com

They have some good side income stream ideas. Maybe also consider learning another language if youre not already to add another dimension to social interactions/opportunities.

+1

IMO too much RVF travel section and too much MMM/ERE reading is causing smart 20 somethings to throw away, or prematurely eject from, promising careers in the western world.

If you earn 200k and live in California, one of the most beautiful and opportunity-ful places in the world, you are really grasping at straws for something to complain about... A goal of living on 20k/yr of "passive income" in some low-cost foreign nation is not nearly sufficient, nor is it anything close to a "safe" (4% rule bla bla bla) financial plan. It has a HIGH probability of you ending up as a 50 year old single man with little money, no family, and zero options in life.

Not to say that you can't have a successful "alternative" career and great life, but focusing too much on passive income, low cost-of-living, freedom, "escaping the 9-5", comfort etc. instead of building a valuable career, stacking SERIOUS cash, and "winning", is a very bad idea.

[jj90]

@christpuncher: You know I agree with the main premise of what you are saying but I completely disagree with the notion you put forth of putting your time in and climbing the corporate ladder and etc.

If a person values a bank account for nothing more than the sake of how many digits there are in it, and serious cash happens to be >1M, that person on the flip side of what you are saying will likely never get to eject from the grind. That same 50 yr old guy you talk about will have a mortgage, mother in laws, minivan, and soccer practice for the kids.

Make money, yes. Grind out 20 years in corporate land? No thank you.

[Off The Reservation]

Its that "no thank you" that drives innovation and will make jj90 worth 50 million while others slave away to create $4675.86 in monthly income and live in constant fear.

[Celestial]

I mean you can of course make serious cash in Silicon Valley, but I'm with @jj90 here in it's not worth it for everyone to grind away here into your 30's. There's a reason why this place is stacked with young people, it's because ageism is real, burnout and stress take hold after a few years and not everyone is capable of lasting long.

Also, @Off The Reservation, you drew a very strong dichotomy to make your point and made it seem as if passive income can only provide a little $$$ and likely result in fear. First, $4675 (I know you probably didn't intend this # to be used in this way) per month is VERY good money in most places in the world. And second, very few people get to 50M, there's a large # of single digit millionaires in the Bay Area, and even at 2-3% most of them could retire in their 30's pulling 60-70k + per year off investments.

[RawGod]

(02-07-2017 11:19 PM)Celestial Wrote:  

I mean you can of course make serious cash in Silicon Valley, but I'm with @jj90 here in it's not worth it for everyone to grind away here into your 30's. There's a reason why this place is stacked with young people, it's because ageism is real, burnout and stress take hold after a few years and not everyone is capable of lasting long.

Also, @Off The Reservation, you drew a very strong dichotomy to make your point and made it seem as if passive income can only provide a little $$$ and likely result in fear. First, $4675 (I know you probably didn't intend this # to be used in this way) per month is VERY good money in most places in the world. And second, very few people get to 50M, there's a large # of single digit millionaires in the Bay Area, and even at 2-3% most of them could retire in their 30's pulling 60-70k + per year off investments.

Agree. If you make $4675/month location independent, have no debt, live in Kiev or Manila, you are doing fine. Fear doesn't come into it once you have some savings and are turning away work. Or actually, the truth is that the $$$ amount you make has nothing to do with the fear you may feel in your gut. That's entirely up to you.

[lavidaloca]

One of the problems people forget is the 4% rule isn't necessarily true for 100% stock portfolio for a young guy who will I'd hope make some money at some point in the future. Additionally other factors come into play like inheritances that with house prices in North America these days will provide a great deal of money to a number of people in the West.


You will not be rich by grinding out 4-6 years post grad school (MBA, LAW, PHD etc.) The odds are overwhelmingly low. The odds you are rich from working 8 years post undergrad are also overwhelminingly low.

As someone in his late 20's, with a high income, self-employed and well educated I'll give you the general financial situation of close friends of mine.

1: Lawyer - 3 years out. Approximately 90k in debt with low six figure income.

2: Finance guy - 6 years out. Approximate net worth of 200k. Income around 200k.

3: HVAC guy - 9 years out. Approximate net worth of 200k. Income around 80k.

4: Chef - 10 years out and married. Approximate net worth of 75k. Individual income around 70k.

None of these guys have a net worth that would allow for location independence aside from if your talking about living on $1000 a month and working to make a bit more which is a reasonable possibility. But if you were going to do that, its probably not worth working 10 years in order to have a passive income of $1000 a month.Youd be better off building a sustainable income abroad.

The truth of the matter is no one is rich at 30 aside from people who have some sort of talent that is televisable / media friendly, people with big inheritances, or people who did very well with entrepreneurship.

One thing all the retire early sites i've seen have in common is it's couples. It's a lot easier to live on one salary and bank the other when you have 2 people.

I'd advise saving some sort of nest egg i.e. 100kish so you can sustain yourself for a few years then start a business abroad / online unless every year you work will make a substantial difference in how much you can spend per year for the rest of your life. I..e. someone who can up their net worth 100k a year should probably work. Someone who is upping their net worth by 10k a year is probably at best increasing their spending by a couple dollars day for life.

One thing I'd do if I was lower income abroad is to have a couple off days where I spend nothing so I could go big on days where lots of stuffs going on i.e. Fridays / Saturdays.

I admire the guys who dropped out in their 20s and have successfully made a living abroad. Those guys are winning.

[Celestial]

(02-08-2017 01:26 AM)lavidaloca Wrote:  

One of the problems people forget is the 4% rule isn't necessarily true for 100% stock portfolio for a young guy who will I'd hope make some money at some point in the future. Additionally other factors come into play like inheritances that with house prices in North America these days will provide a great deal of money to a number of people in the West.


You will not be rich by grinding out 4-6 years post grad school (MBA, LAW, PHD etc.) The odds are overwhelmingly low. The odds you are rich from working 8 years post undergrad are also overwhelminingly low.

As someone in his late 20's, with a high income, self-employed and well educated I'll give you the general financial situation of close friends of mine.

1: Lawyer - 3 years out. Approximately 90k in debt with low six figure income.

2: Finance guy - 6 years out. Approximate net worth of 200k. Income around 200k.

3: HVAC guy - 9 years out. Approximate net worth of 200k. Income around 80k.

4: Chef - 10 years out and married. Approximate net worth of 75k. Individual income around 70k.

None of these guys have a net worth that would allow for location independence aside from if your talking about living on $1000 a month and working to make a bit more which is a reasonable possibility. But if you were going to do that, its probably not worth working 10 years in order to have a passive income of $1000 a month.Youd be better off building a sustainable income abroad.

The truth of the matter is no one is rich at 30 aside from people who have some sort of talent that is televisable / media friendly, people with big inheritances, or people who did very well with entrepreneurship.

One thing all the retire early sites i've seen have in common is it's couples. It's a lot easier to live on one salary and bank the other when you have 2 people.

I'd advise saving some sort of nest egg i.e. 100kish so you can sustain yourself for a few years then start a business abroad / online unless every year you work will make a substantial difference in how much you can spend per year for the rest of your life. I..e. someone who can up their net worth 100k a year should probably work. Someone who is upping their net worth by 10k a year is probably at best increasing their spending by a couple dollars day for life.

One thing I'd do if I was lower income abroad is to have a couple off days where I spend nothing so I could go big on days where lots of stuffs going on i.e. Fridays / Saturdays.

I admire the guys who dropped out in their 20s and have successfully made a living abroad. Those guys are winning.

I agree with most of this, except that you can clear 200k by age 30 if you work on Wall Street or in Silicon Valley. Granted, if you're in that category you can clear much more than that and you'd be taking quite a large pay cut to switch to only a passive income, which would be quite hard mentally.

[H1N1]

I think 'balance' is overrated if you're still in your 20s, and in some sense is a bum's aspiration when you're young. For some, myself included, I don't think 'balance' will be that interesting for most of their 30s either. I have almost no 'balance' in my life at the moment. I've slept with one girl in the last 4 months or so, almost without realising it. I went on a date on Monday with a 22 year old model and was too tired to be charming and engaging - all I could think of was getting home and getting a really good night's sleep - 8 hours in the exact position I crawled into bed in. I've put off 4 girls that I've been talking to, all of whom had indicated that easy sex was on the table, to focus on the work that needs to be done.

I'm in a phase of my life where I am starting to really make it, and where with the focused application of my talents I should go on to enjoy unusual success. There will be a time for young girls, and 'balance', but that time isn't now. Now is a time for complete focus on the primary goal, at the expense of all other distractions.

Looking around, the people I see who have this 'balance' in their 20s are the people who have modest talent, and for whom indulging heavily in life's distractions does not do very much to harm their chances of success. If you find yourself with a particular talent, one you can apply meaningfully for a sustained period to enjoy the enhanced rewards such an accident of birth can bring you, then to my mind you should simply accept that you have this ability and wring every last drop out of it, single-mindedly and for as long as you can.

[Peregrine]

Good discussion. I want to make it clear that when I say men should grind hard during their 20s, I don't mean at a corporate job making 80k a year. You're grinding 80 hours a week or more at a job that pays real money (which you then save most of), or you're phoning it in at a job that covers the bills while you spend your other waking hours building a business. Let loose once in awhile - like doc said, you should have enough energy to party and grind. It's not either or.

I'm working hard now specifically because I don't want to have to work at all when I'm 30.