[SanMiguel]

Some good insights in this thread - I can relate to both sides of the argument, having gone between periods in my 20s of working ridiculously hard and then burning out and saying fuck it I need to have a life too, putting work on the back burner. One year I had no holidays at all, worked weeks straight on my own business and barely saw friends/family - quite a big sacrifice when you're 21/22 and I missed out on a lot of things, did the same a bit later too but not as drastic.

My friends thought I was crazy/boring/whatever although now at 28 I'm in a position where I can do/buy things my friends can't dream of - not just because of money (some of them earn more) but also because they have no freedom and only 28 days off a year. The best combination for me would be 70% work 30% play, if you can gauge it somehow. You don't need to sacrifice a whole decade but definitely a year or 2 now will pay off big time in the future.

I know there's a separate poll on the forum but what sort of figures (income/savings) are you guys aiming for? I used to think I want a huge house here in England, fancy cars, boats etc. and started off aiming for that type of lifestyle - £200k+/year semi-passive income was a rough target and huge savings £1m+. I've come to realise that I don't need anything near that to have a great lifestyle where I'm free to do more or less whatever I want. Not being tied down with a family or kids obviously helps and I'd need more money for that in the future, although that's a long way away in my head.

Right now my target is £5k/month net income (semi-passive) which is much more realistic, would give me a really good lifestyle in most major cities outside of London and NY. Savings wise I'd be comfortable with around £100k and a decent amount of equity in property. The first target would probably take me til 40 to achieve and I don't think would make me any happier/my life better. The second is doable by 30 so it's a no brainer for me.

[Off The Reservation]

Re Pergr.^ work at becoming the man you want to be, yes.

[Travel Museums]

Let's say you'll be 50-60 years old one day...

How much would you pay for a time machine to go back to your 20s-30s and have more time for fun and travel?

One million dollars?

[christpuncher]

(02-07-2017 09:46 PM)jj90 Wrote:  

@christpuncher: You know I agree with the main premise of what you are saying but I completely disagree with the notion you put forth of putting your time in and climbing the corporate ladder and etc.

If a person values a bank account for nothing more than the sake of how many digits there are in it, and serious cash happens to be >1M, that person on the flip side of what you are saying will likely never get to eject from the grind. That same 50 yr old guy you talk about will have a mortgage, mother in laws, minivan, and soccer practice for the kids.

Make money, yes. Grind out 20 years in corporate land? No thank you.

(02-07-2017 10:39 PM)Off The Reservation Wrote:  

Its that "no thank you" that drives innovation and will make jj90 worth 50 million while others slave away to create $4675.86 in monthly income and live in constant fear.

(02-07-2017 11:19 PM)Celestial Wrote:  

I mean you can of course make serious cash in Silicon Valley, but I'm with @jj90 here in it's not worth it for everyone to grind away here into your 30's. There's a reason why this place is stacked with young people, it's because ageism is real, burnout and stress take hold after a few years and not everyone is capable of lasting long.

Also, @Off The Reservation, you drew a very strong dichotomy to make your point and made it seem as if passive income can only provide a little $$$ and likely result in fear. First, $4675 (I know you probably didn't intend this # to be used in this way) per month is VERY good money in most places in the world. And second, very few people get to 50M, there's a large # of single digit millionaires in the Bay Area, and even at 2-3% most of them could retire in their 30's pulling 60-70k + per year off investments.

I'm just trying to provide counter perspective to your guy's "grass is greener" mindset.

We're talking about making amazingly good money (200k+) and living in California. Of course life isn't perfect, there is stress, mild dissatisfaction, ect.

Worried about corporate ladders? Ending up stuck in the grind with a bitch wife and minivan? Getting old, burning out? Retiring at 50? Wake up and smell the coffee.

Try all those things except the difference between the bottom and top of the corporate ladder is 35k-70k over 30 years, actually being stuck with a bitch wife and a rusted minivan because you can't possibly afford to leave, not worrying about mental "burnout" but "will my body survive working into old age", and hopefully retiring with a paid off house and some simple comforts by 65... That is what awaits the vast majority of men outside of a few key hubs and sectors where the cash is flowing and opportunity abounds.

But you guys want to say "no thank you" to all that. Apparently that's the key step to making 50M...

It's great to be a dreamer and have lofty goals, but unless you are exceptional, and by definition most of us aren't, leaving your great job to pursue something else is going to end badly 19/20 times.

It take a lot more than fleeting motivation, supplied not even by yourself, but immersion in internet forums and entrepreneurship circles, to have a shot at making it work. Coming to the realization in your late 20s that you have moderate dissatisfaction with the corporate world does not an business-man make. You need to have that motivation deep in you, most likely expressing itself by age 16, to hope to succeed.

And I wouldn't even say don't do it, just don't do it yet. Peoples plan for early plug-pulling used to be: save responsibly, buy used, pay off the house and retire before 55. Then it was "quit at 40 and do part time consulting in my field of expertise", recently it's "quit at 30 and start my own company (maybe related to your expertise/maybe not), or retire with 500k and 20k/year" or now it's "quit after 1-3 years and move to Thailand and do something with the internet"

500k is not "Fuck You Money". These travel sites and minimalist blogs have convinced a whole bunch of low-cost 20s and early 30 somethings into thinking 500k and 20k/year is sufficient, that "a couple years" is both all that they need and all that they can endure in corporate America...
Have convinced themselves that living in California is torture, and going from 200k at age 30 to 400k at age 40 "isn't worth the stress".

[Lime]

What would be the best time to do a 2 to 3 year corporate job stint? I am mid 20s and job offers are tempting.. but then I'll have to put off gaming a lot of young girls for those 2 to 3 years.... I hate going into a job without a girl to come home to or some girls in rotation.. Sounds pathetic to let this depend on 'girls', but I can't put off gaming a lot of girls forever....

[samsamsam]

I will agree with H1N1 and christpuncher, that most people are pretty mediocre. Respectfully, even guys on RVF, which is a several notches above the average guy, we are probably not all NASA Test Pilots or anything exceptional.

But to each his own.

But if you had exceptional talent, then I would use that talent in your youth when you energy is the best and you can recover from failure.

Trying to achieve greatness at a later stage in life, can put a lot at risk.

For a lot of people, they won't be able to make the move, ever. But having a dream to be able to, and seeing other guys do it (like cleanslate, 262, etc) at least gives guys hope. And at least they can work toward something. You can have a goal and it can change, but you need a goal in life.

I am not trying to piss in anyone's cheerios and say most will fail to generate enough velocity to escape crappy job gravity. Most won't, but you must try if that is what you want.

Everyone's definition of FU money is different, and we should to some degree, not judge too harshly the choices of others - in some situations. If someone could be happy living on 500 a month, who am I to say that isn't good enough.

But I am surprised sometimes how little frustration a person can handle before they start thinking about ejecting. Life has difficulty, it is part of life. If your sole purpose is to avoid difficulty or pain, I can't imagine you living very long. And keep in mind you are not a victim. It takes two to tango. You got a shitty boss? Maybe you need to look at your work performance. Maybe you should have chose better when the signals were there that s/he might be a shitty boss during interviews.

It used to be if you got a good job in your 20s, you put your head down and worked. Now I hear, the first thing 20 something year olds do is ask about their vacation time. During the economic downturn in 2008, I remembered reading an article that companies were keeping their older and more expensive employees and letting go younger and cheaper ones. Mainly because they were not so productive and had shitty attitudes. Slight tangent...

[jj90]

@christpuncher: You sound like me 5-10 years ago. All in it for the money and the fuck you. It's a philosophical difference and we will have to agree to disagree.

But I think you are looking at this in too much of a terms of black and white. Leave and never come back? On the contrary amigo. Those years spent abroad should give one ideas and perspective into different ways of making bank. A person can always come back, it's not career suicide for most. And by your own thoughts and admission, since many fall into the middle of the pack, going away isn't going to hurt them from grinding away 20 more years in corp land, if anything it should give them more perspective on a good position.

The main point I and others like Travel Museums above pointed out is: if you can work the rest of your life, why spend the most mobile and youthful one's grinding? You can always do that when you are 40-50, when you are immobile because of kids/health/home/whatever.

As for your numbers? Let's use your example and break this down, say you went from 200K @30 to 400K@40. That's 20K a year banked. So you are a lead software dev in the Valley making 200K. Uncle Sam takes about 50%. Now you are down to 100K. Living the Valley isn't cheap, say you spend 60K. Now your disposable income is 40K, you spend half you bank the other 20K. Totally doable right?

Here's what you don't see for those guys making 200K in high powered positions: 1)16 hour workdays.
2)Work on weekends.
3)The burnout. Think you have a social life and time to go to the gym?

Then you stick your head up and realize 5 years have gone by. For what? The American Dream? Then you decide to pull pin and get out.

Yeah I agree most people don't have the resources to sustain an expat lifestyle, and they will eventually come back. But so what? They were happy and it made them better. For those that have "made it" in good jobs and banked while doing so, leaving IS their fuck you.

[lavidaloca]

(02-11-2017 09:16 AM)christpuncher Wrote:  

500k is not "Fuck You Money". These travel sites and minimalist blogs have convinced a whole bunch of low-cost 20s and early 30 somethings into thinking 500k and 20k/year is sufficient, that "a couple years" is both all that they need and all that they can endure in corporate America...
Have convinced themselves that living in California is torture, and going from 200k at age 30 to 400k at age 40 "isn't worth the stress".

No one is getting to 500k by 30 as a single person unless they are self-employed, work a very high income job i.e. investment banker in a major city or have some sort of media talent.

Thats 8 years post university for reference or 4-6 years post grad school. The savings rate to reach that point is astronomical as a single person. All those retire early blogs are couples where they live off one income and bank the others. Two people making 80k a year makes it pretty easy to bank 60k+ a year and makes that achievable. For an individual though because the tax rate to make the same amount of money is so much higher and they lose out on shared costs its incredibly impractical. Factor in student loans, training costs and it doesn't happen often. Investing 60k a year for a decade and with some reasonable returns you'd probably be close to a millionaire.


Think about the guy in New York who fresh out of school makes 160k. Something like 70k goes to the tax man. Leaving him 90k. Another 25k in rent. Hes at 65k. he has student loans to pay, food, living expenses etc. It really isn't that easy to get up to 500k as a single person.

[monsquid]

Good discussion. Couple of points I want to make:

-- You don't know what's going to happen to your health, relationships, and general ability to work as you get older. There's a lot of risk out there as you get older. Yes most men reach their peak earnings from 40-50 years old, but there are plenty of physically broken or professionally stilted men who either never made it to the peak of their potential or can no longer keep it up. So it seems silly NOT to bust your ass during 20s to try make as much ground as possible in your profession or skillset. When you're young your body can put up with a lot of abuse -- this resilience is better directed towards working the long hours and arduous effort to find professional success instead of trolling nightclubs, hangovers, and fleeting sexual ego boosts.

-- I think in our society there is an over emphasis on lifestyle while young. Lifestyle is subjectively more valuable when you're older when you're raising children and your health can't sustain as much daily damage. Part of lifestyle inflation is trying to match others who are living way beyond their means. We see their instagram/facebook/snapchat and think "wow these people are living it up, i want the same" but they're wasting their future by focusing on cheap thrills for today.

-- If your health is shit then nothing else matters. From this angle use your 20s to grind because you're still young but as you gain more experience and become more efficient in your field you will work less as you get older. This is where you want to be.

-- For many hitting 30 is the first wake up call. On average male testosterone starts declining at 1% per year starting at age 30. Age 40 is the real wall. If you haven't set yourself up by 40 then you're going to be woefully behind the curve the older you get.

[Celestial]

(02-11-2017 05:01 PM)lavidaloca Wrote:  

(02-11-2017 09:16 AM)christpuncher Wrote:  

500k is not "Fuck You Money". These travel sites and minimalist blogs have convinced a whole bunch of low-cost 20s and early 30 somethings into thinking 500k and 20k/year is sufficient, that "a couple years" is both all that they need and all that they can endure in corporate America...
Have convinced themselves that living in California is torture, and going from 200k at age 30 to 400k at age 40 "isn't worth the stress".

No one is getting to 500k by 30 as a single person unless they are self-employed, work a very high income job i.e. investment banker in a major city or have some sort of media talent.

Thats 8 years post university for reference or 4-6 years post grad school. The savings rate to reach that point is astronomical as a single person. All those retire early blogs are couples where they live off one income and bank the others. Two people making 80k a year makes it pretty easy to bank 60k+ a year and makes that achievable. For an individual though because the tax rate to make the same amount of money is so much higher and they lose out on shared costs its incredibly impractical. Factor in student loans, training costs and it doesn't happen often. Investing 60k a year for a decade and with some reasonable returns you'd probably be close to a millionaire.


Think about the guy in New York who fresh out of school makes 160k. Something like 70k goes to the tax man. Leaving him 90k. Another 25k in rent. Hes at 65k. he has student loans to pay, food, living expenses etc. It really isn't that easy to get up to 500k as a single person.

I mostly agree, except for :

Self-employed is going to result in a ridiculously high tax rate, so unlikely to reach 500k unless you take the entrepreneurship route and do well.

500k by age 30 is reachable in IT if you work in high tech (Google / Facebook) or at quantitative hedge funds. Both are very difficult to get into, but if you get in and put in 7 solid years (23 -> 30, only need a BS most of the time), you can easily have 500k stacked.

[TooFineAPoint]

(02-08-2017 04:00 AM)H1N1 Wrote:  

I think 'balance' is overrated if you're still in your 20s, and in some sense is a bum's aspiration when you're young. For some, myself included, I don't think 'balance' will be that interesting for most of their 30s either. I have almost no 'balance' in my life at the moment. I've slept with one girl in the last 4 months or so, almost without realising it. I went on a date on Monday with a 22 year old model and was too tired to be charming and engaging - all I could think of was getting home and getting a really good night's sleep - 8 hours in the exact position I crawled into bed in. I've put off 4 girls that I've been talking to, all of whom had indicated that easy sex was on the table, to focus on the work that needs to be done.

I'm in a phase of my life where I am starting to really make it, and where with the focused application of my talents I should go on to enjoy unusual success. There will be a time for young girls, and 'balance', but that time isn't now. Now is a time for complete focus on the primary goal, at the expense of all other distractions.

Looking around, the people I see who have this 'balance' in their 20s are the people who have modest talent, and for whom indulging heavily in life's distractions does not do very much to harm their chances of success. If you find yourself with a particular talent, one you can apply meaningfully for a sustained period to enjoy the enhanced rewards such an accident of birth can bring you, then to my mind you should simply accept that you have this ability and wring every last drop out of it, single-mindedly and for as long as you can.

You don't think you could do what you are doing right now (work wise) and still fit in some sport/blow-off-steam sex once a week?

Might even clear the mind and allow you to be more creative / effective...

[lavidaloca]

(02-11-2017 08:21 PM)Celestial Wrote:  

I mostly agree, except for :

Self-employed is going to result in a ridiculously high tax rate, so unlikely to reach 500k unless you take the entrepreneurship route and do well.

Must be location dependent. I only pay 15.5% on money kept inside of the company.

[Peregrine]

Quote:

Self-employed is going to result in a ridiculously high tax rate, so unlikely to reach 500k unless you take the entrepreneurship route and do well.

Small business owners, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm almost certain that business taxes are way lower than income tax. Maybe that's just my jurisdiction, but I thought that was fairly universal. And businesses have access to a crapload of deductions that employees don't.

[lavidaloca]

(02-12-2017 02:55 AM)Peregrine Wrote:  

Quote:

Self-employed is going to result in a ridiculously high tax rate, so unlikely to reach 500k unless you take the entrepreneurship route and do well.

Small business owners, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm almost certain that business taxes are way lower than income tax. Maybe that's just my jurisdiction, but I thought that was fairly universal. And businesses have access to a crapload of deductions that employees don't.

This is correct where I'm from as well.

[Peregrine]

Delete

[Celestial]

(02-12-2017 02:55 AM)Peregrine Wrote:  

Quote:

Self-employed is going to result in a ridiculously high tax rate, so unlikely to reach 500k unless you take the entrepreneurship route and do well.

Small business owners, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm almost certain that business taxes are way lower than income tax. Maybe that's just my jurisdiction, but I thought that was fairly universal. And businesses have access to a crapload of deductions that employees don't.

Ah yeah I stand corrected, got confused with tax rates. My bad.

[monsquid]

(02-12-2017 02:48 AM)lavidaloca Wrote:  

(02-11-2017 08:21 PM)Celestial Wrote:  

I mostly agree, except for :

Self-employed is going to result in a ridiculously high tax rate, so unlikely to reach 500k unless you take the entrepreneurship route and do well.

Must be location dependent. I only pay 15.5% on money kept inside of the company.

Do you get taxed for your business profits and also the pay you give yourself?

For a small business with few employees that could be devastating on how much the business grosses vs. what actually ends up in the pocket at take home.

[lavidaloca]

(02-12-2017 08:15 PM)monsquid Wrote:  

(02-12-2017 02:48 AM)lavidaloca Wrote:  

(02-11-2017 08:21 PM)Celestial Wrote:  

I mostly agree, except for :

Self-employed is going to result in a ridiculously high tax rate, so unlikely to reach 500k unless you take the entrepreneurship route and do well.

Must be location dependent. I only pay 15.5% on money kept inside of the company.

Do you get taxed for your business profits and also the pay you give yourself?

For a small business with few employees that could be devastating on how much the business grosses vs. what actually ends up in the pocket at take home.

Thats a bit more complicated but effectively no.

What happens is I take dividends. Up to a certain amount you don't pay any extra tax as your corporation has already paid that amount. I can't comment on the amount as I'm not really sure. I think its roughly $32,000 in Ontario.

If you are for example in the highest tax bracket personally from what you take out. I.e. your taking out 100k+ a year. Then you'd pay taxes above the corporate tax rate but you don't get double taxed. That would be a rather ridiculous proposition. Pay 15% then pay a near 50% marginal tax rate. You'd be paying 65% taxes!

I don't need to draw much from my company in order to make everything work so it's not an issue for me.

If you pay dividends I believe you can avoid paying CPP and some other stuff so your taxes will be lower personally...although I don't understand that stuff and leave it to my accountant and bookkeeper to figure out.

Most people leave money in the corporation rather than take it out if they are financially savvy because keep in mind I can write off most of my living expenses. There are very few things I'd need personal monies for (buying groceries, rent if you have a personal residence without an office etc.) Within the corporation you can buy homes, commercial units, equities etc. So why bother paying more tax and taking the money personally to do that.

I have a professional corporation which provides tax advantages beyond that of a normal corporation. So I can't comment much on normal corporations and tax / withdrawing money.

If you want to get to 500k or 1 million quickly and retirely early you honestly have to be self-employed or get a very high paying job. I chose self-employed and its going well for me. Others though who are smarter and more studious than me could certainly bust their ass and get an i-banking job or job at google, apple etc.

[Thrill Jackson]

(02-04-2017 11:58 AM)Travesty Wrote:  

I think banging as many 18-20yo girls as possible until you are 24 or 25 when it is the easiest it will ever be. Sow your oats. After that age it just gets harder with each year.

Then focus as hard as you can making money knowing you got it in all the easiest hottest bangs and that in old age you will need money and options to have the same enjoyment once you lose your youth.

I think any guy that likes the player lifestyle would be doing himself a huge disservice by not devoting a large block of time running game and banging girls in these early years... if someone chose to ignore girls during these years and settle for a few plain 6s here and there between droughts because they are working so much I would say that is a very gay gamble with your time because you would need to be worth millions or famous soon after these years to have the same ease & fun with these girls.

Once you get to late 20s - mid 30s now all those years just blend into older guy for these chicks rather than peer.

That said if you are 25-35 and never successfully gamed for a few years do it now to get the experience in.

I respectfully disagree, as your signature states from Gio 'If I talk to 100 19 year old girls, at least one of them is getting fucked!".

As a man in his early 20s Its going to be money/work>Pussy til I'm 28. If I eat/workout the right way these bitches will think I'm 21 regardless.

Approach 10 times a week (520 times a year) thats 5 bangs a year.Combo that with some trips to Thailand/Mexico and you'll have 100 bangs in 4 years.

I will have sowed my oats by then.

[ElJefe1]

(02-04-2017 08:01 AM)zatara Wrote:  

Girl wise, in your 20s you can still bang girls from 18-50 with no real restrictions. If you work till you're 35/40 you're no longer going to be able to just hit up college bars whenever you feel like fucking a 20 year old girl on a Thursday night. Or go to the many, many big travel 'events' like Spring Break, the Full Moon Party in Thailand, island hop in Greece etc where you'll stand out like a sore thumb as the creepy old dude.

@travesty @zatara

This statement isn't entirely true,ou can still at that age bang 18-24 year olds regularly at this age pretty easily actually, it's just a fact of life women tend to like older guys. It's good to make money and have fun in your twenties but definitely lay the foundation to not have to toil away.

[Off The Reservation]

Have you done anything OP?

[Celestial]

(03-20-2017 07:34 PM)Off The Reservation Wrote:  

Have you done anything OP?

Yes, I've been pretty busy. I started reading a bunch more, especially WallStreetPlayboys. There strategy seems to fit closer to mine, where you work super hard early on and gradually start decreasing as you reach your late 20's, until when you hit early 30's and you are financially independent.

So I'm still working super hard, but in the interim :
- I made a trip to South America to just get out of SV for a bit and get my mind straight.
- Realized with the kind of income I got in SV the rest of the world is dirt cheap, and after a few years there I'll have enough to run around the globe a bunch.
- Started focusing on foreign women, which are a bunch more pleasant around here.