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What role does conformity play in masculinity?
#1

What role does conformity play in masculinity?

There was temporary open registration for this forum so I said "fuck it, why not?". If this forum is tightly moderated hopefully there will be some cool perspectives that I can't find elsewhere. So here's my first post

A lot of times I feel people (ie those in Red Pill/Neomasculinity/Manosphere) describe the non-conformism as a part of the masculine form. ie why girls love the bad boy right?

and on the flipside, many people describe the masculinity as the opposite. One who does what is good for the tribe. In a video a few months back roosh describes his friend turning to him and telling him "do what you want" and roosh thinks "I don't think thats a good idea. one should do what is good for his tribe"

Obviously, masculinity is a concept, not a hard physical object. so asking "is XYZ part of the masculine form?" is a silly question to begin with. That being said, one can agree that strength for example is a virtue generally found in the masculine form?

Thinking back to myself, there was a period of time where I excessively abused LSD, amphetamines, xanax, MDMA, prescription opiates, and heavy caffeine and oral tobacco use. I would say that was the most "badass" point of my life. I was doing everything for me, and nothing for "the tribe". And I would personally say that this was my most unhappy and least masculine phase of life.

From my point of view, nothing is masculine about breaking rules/views that were put in place for good reason. Ie I don't see cheating on your girlfriend or drug abuse as masculine whatsoever

Thoughts?
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#2

What role does conformity play in masculinity?

I used to be an atheist who believed in the whole "do what you want" thing, but it was mainly before I discovered the "red pill." I used to think "conformists" who were religious, practiced/preached sexual morality, etc., were stupid. The whole concept of the red pill/traditional masculinity is what made me realize that was wrong, and that "conformity" and hierarchy weren't always bad. In fact, hierarchy and leadership is not only necessary, but pretty much universal in human relationships and human interaction. Conformity to the laws of God (or nature, whatever you want to call it) is necessary in life, and so is conformity to certain social norms.

Of course, non-conformity, and rebellion against bad leadership, is also an important aspect of masculinity. It really depends on the situation, i.e. the specific society and time period, that one is living in.
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#3

What role does conformity play in masculinity?

Girls who go for bad boys are doing so for several reasons, none of which will ever be complete explanations, but of which I can reasonably identify two:

(1) Daddy issues. The girl could be going after boys who remind her of her father because he's a piece of shit as well, and she's still craving his love. But a girl can be going after boys that her father would disapprove of because she hasn't got over her teenage rebellion phase. Women can be just as juvenile as guys can, and adulthood has been delayed in the West to at least the mid-twenties if not further. In this case she's going after the bad boy because she's craving excitement. That's not a woman drawn to the masculine aspects of a man.

(2) The guy has one thing in common with traditional masculinity: he's confident in himself and he has enough self-assuredness that she doesn't detect him seeking her approval of him. This is perfectly consistent with a man who believes in his nation, his God, or his tribe first. The DILLIGAF attitude mimics this well because sociopaths don't give a fuck about anybody but themselves, but there are few things that will dry up a vagina faster than a guy who has so little self-assuredness that she can dislodge his confidence and self-esteem by merely giving him some shit.

If she wants to make someone cry by giving them shit she can get that from her stupid female friends who are exquisitely oversensitive: what she wants from a man is the paradox of being both caring and dangerous, which masculinity looks a lot like because it involves greater objectivity and self-confidence than she is ever going to be able to muster.

Women want to feel desired. That necessarily means they want to feel the man has made a conscious choice to fuck them, and that they continue to make this choice notwithstanding the other pussy that's around on a regular basis. This is why women get snotty when you have a wandering eye: you are making them feel like they are not your choice, and it rattles them because it makes them feel less desirable; the "faithful" part of it is a much lesser aspect.

Paradoxically, though, if you act like your whole world revolves around them, they don't feel like you are choosing them. And let's face it, if that's the situation, they're right. Instead, you are giving the impression of being dependent on them, and the only dependent a woman feels any innate connection to or responsibility for is the dependent that they shit out of their vagina.

Remissas, discite, vivet.
God save us from people who mean well. -storm
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#4

What role does conformity play in masculinity?

Conformity is only beneficial to the self in cases of

1. Self preservation: say whatever you need to get by, to live to fight another day / don't rock the boat and make unnecessary enemies

2. Following a noble and just leader who might be in the right role to benefit himself and you (and your loved ones).

If an authority figure is foolish or unjust (according to you), and you will not die opposing him/her, why not oppose them?

As to the whole "good of the tribe" thing, it's a bit egotistical to imagine that some of us can tell what is best for a whole bunch of other people, or that a mass of people can suddenly be on the same level about what they really need. We're fallible, so we do the best we can, but I'm coming to believe a lot of decisions are the result of naked selfishness (not necessarily a bad thing and not necessarily hurtful to the tribe) and the backwards rationalizing of the essentially irrational.

Tough question; good thread.

To clarify, I am not against the idea that what might be truly best for the self (and obvious to one as one acts) is to better everyone around you or help them to get what they want. I am suspicious of someone saying they act on behalf of the tribe, and doubly so when people ask me to change my actions and beliefs on behalf of a tribe they don't even belong to.
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#5

What role does conformity play in masculinity?

Very good first post.

Masculine ideals are a large umbrella of different assorted items. The posters before me have stated it well.

Girls chasing bad boys is a symptom of a lack of patriarchal conrol in their lives. They crave it and thus seek out a characture of it.

As for conformity, there's a degee of it you should be aiming for, but you don't want 100% conformity. Personally, i am for a 60/40 split of conforming. Why? I find this leads to a wolf in sheeps clothing effect. You're able to find your way into certain circles by virtue of fitting in, but then you'll be able to whip out a wild card. Those are the moments that propel you to leadership.
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#6

What role does conformity play in masculinity?

Quote: (12-09-2016 04:27 AM)The Beast1 Wrote:  

Very good first post.

Masculine ideals are a large umbrella of different assorted items. The posters before me have stated it well.

Girls chasing bad boys is a symptom of a lack of patriarchal conrol in their lives. They crave it and thus seek out a characture of it.

As for conformity, there's a degee of it you should be aiming for, but you don't want 100% conformity. Personally, i am for a 60/40 split of conforming. Why? I find this leads to a wolf in sheeps clothing effect. You're able to find your way into certain circles by virtue of fitting in, but then you'll be able to whip out a wild card. Those are the moments that propel you to leadership.
i really like this. and this was sort of the conclusion that I was getting at


I read through these posts and I have two comments
1) I find that there is a balance to be struck. I am from a conservative asian family. and my fathers argument from day one has been "traditions in our culture aren't random rules and bullshit. they serve a purpose and are tested overtime". ie a man works hard to provide for his family because he is inherently strong and stoic. a woman marries young (because young women look better and produce better children). women have more empathy so biologically they are more well suited to take care of the children etc. I could go on. but I feel where my father comes from is very similar to roosh v's position and frankly the whole red pill. I stand on the ground that SOME of these rulings end up being worthless. Some of them come in handy. Ie obviously crack cocaine delivers little long term benefits. but MDMA, LSD, and DMT (when you very cautiously and responsibly) are powerful tools in the quest for self-actualization. As such there is a stigma attached to "Drugs" as a whole which is stupid. But in reality its only a handful of drugs that cause serious issues when abused (which I am the example of). So I would agree. I think one should think about each societal ruling and ask themselves honestly what their role is/was, and what wisdom they carry. 60/40 is a nice ratio. be open minded, but not so open minded that your mind falls out

2) as I stated earlier, there is no hard "list" of things that masculinity encompasses. The question that I ask myself is "Would I respect my dad if he did this?". I wouldn't respect my dad if he banged other hoes while married to my mom. I would respect him for working his ass off to bring me to this country. I would respect him if he worked his ass off. I would respect him if he got swole. I would respect him if I found out he had an insane notch count before meeting my mom lol. This is just my method of dicerning masculine from feminine

any thoughts/arguement is welcome
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#7

What role does conformity play in masculinity?

Quote: (12-09-2016 12:30 PM)sparkythedawg Wrote:  

1) I find that there is a balance to be struck. I am from a conservative asian family.

Oh hey same.

Quote: (12-09-2016 12:30 PM)sparkythedawg Wrote:  

2) as I stated earlier, there is no hard "list" of things that masculinity encompasses.

I'd add that you know upon first inspection whether something's masculine or not. Conformity itself isn't an end-all, be-all (the Spartan agoge training for their young men sounds pretty badass!)

The definitions for masculinity change with age, not because age confers maturity, but because you grow tired of old stuff and move on (funny, I just used one of my childhood trophies as a backscratcher just now) to bigger and better stuff.

You move through different phases-no, pursuits-as you mature and with them different standards. Look no further than men like Roosh right now.

Quote: (12-09-2016 12:30 PM)sparkythedawg Wrote:  

The question that I ask myself is "Would I respect my dad if he did this?". I wouldn't respect my dad if he banged other hoes while married to my mom.

Quote: (12-09-2016 12:30 PM)sparkythedawg Wrote:  

I would respect him if I found out he had an insane notch count before meeting my mom lol. This is just my method of dicerning masculine from feminine

I find this observation of yours very interesting! Seems paradoxical at first..."would not be cool if my dad ran a train...would be cool if he had run a train."

The difference lies in how you define your relationship in each scenario. In the first, he's a father figure and family man. In the second...an aspirational figure. Different pursuits at different times in life.
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#8

What role does conformity play in masculinity?

Quote: (12-09-2016 12:30 PM)sparkythedawg Wrote:  

Quote: (12-09-2016 04:27 AM)The Beast1 Wrote:  

Very good first post.

Masculine ideals are a large umbrella of different assorted items. The posters before me have stated it well.

Girls chasing bad boys is a symptom of a lack of patriarchal conrol in their lives. They crave it and thus seek out a characture of it.

As for conformity, there's a degee of it you should be aiming for, but you don't want 100% conformity. Personally, i am for a 60/40 split of conforming. Why? I find this leads to a wolf in sheeps clothing effect. You're able to find your way into certain circles by virtue of fitting in, but then you'll be able to whip out a wild card. Those are the moments that propel you to leadership.
i really like this. and this was sort of the conclusion that I was getting at


I read through these posts and I have two comments
1) I find that there is a balance to be struck. I am from a conservative asian family. and my fathers argument from day one has been "traditions in our culture aren't random rules and bullshit. they serve a purpose and are tested overtime". ie a man works hard to provide for his family because he is inherently strong and stoic. a woman marries young (because young women look better and produce better children). women have more empathy so biologically they are more well suited to take care of the children etc. I could go on. but I feel where my father comes from is very similar to roosh v's position and frankly the whole red pill. I stand on the ground that SOME of these rulings end up being worthless. Some of them come in handy. Ie obviously crack cocaine delivers little long term benefits. but MDMA, LSD, and DMT (when you very cautiously and responsibly) are powerful tools in the quest for self-actualization. As such there is a stigma attached to "Drugs" as a whole which is stupid. But in reality its only a handful of drugs that cause serious issues when abused (which I am the example of). So I would agree. I think one should think about each societal ruling and ask themselves honestly what their role is/was, and what wisdom they carry. 60/40 is a nice ratio. be open minded, but not so open minded that your mind falls out

2) as I stated earlier, there is no hard "list" of things that masculinity encompasses. The question that I ask myself is "Would I respect my dad if he did this?". I wouldn't respect my dad if he banged other hoes while married to my mom. I would respect him for working his ass off to bring me to this country. I would respect him if he worked his ass off. I would respect him if he got swole. I would respect him if I found out he had an insane notch count before meeting my mom lol. This is just my method of dicerning masculine from feminine

any thoughts/arguement is welcome

Forum mantra and panacea is eat clean, lift heavy, learn game, be social, expand your mind. Don't go overboard on the chemical means of expanding ones mind, but use it as a smaller part of a larger whole.

My advice to you: I spent college undoing all of the good habits, tricks, and behaviors I picked up in high school. I spent the first 3 years out of college re-learning all of those tricks again and slapping myself for forgetting.

Don't re-invent the wheel. Our elders made the same mistakes from their parents.

Rules are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men.
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#9

What role does conformity play in masculinity?

thanks. Don't worry. I am already doing the lift of non-negotiables
https://www.reddit.com/r/TheRedPill/comm...gotiables/

I am wayyy past my phase of chemical abuse. it was fun while it lasted but its done. I was merely giving an example
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#10

What role does conformity play in masculinity?

I think as long as your testosterone levels are optimal and cortisol levels are low you should be fine. The beta males I know have an inverse relationship and "conform" to society. Yes, they go to church, but so do some of the more alpha guys I know that have optimal test. Yes, betas can dress business casual but the alpha guys that work out rock that look better.

As long as your test levels are optimal and cortisol levels are low you won't get pushed around by women and will get respect from other men.
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#11

What role does conformity play in masculinity?

I feel that one should appear to conform, but value becoming the best-version-of-himself over what anyone else thinks of him. The only conformity that is beneficial in life is conforming to your own principles, rules and values that you refuse to break. If they have been carefully developed, than any deviation from them will likely lead to consequences down the road. One should also carefully consider the thoughts and feelings of others in their group, and never just steamroll over them with your own ego running the show. I have done the opposite before, and even though I was dominant in the situation and felt great it led to some mistakes that have stayed with me for a long time.

Instead of conformity, take societal norms to your own level. Maximize your style, and put effort into your health and fitness - not for others, but for yourself. Other people will appreciate it too, but it's clear that those who achieve greatness do so by following their own compass and ignoring societal constructs. My masculinity has been developing bit by bit over time, and becoming your best self without caring what others think will be the one thing that causes the opinion of you to improve in their minds.

Keep in mind that most people have no idea what they want, and even if they did they wouldn't have the guts to do what it takes to pursue it. Also know that what one "wants" should be carefully aligned with the outcome of achieving that. Many people have given up everything to climb one ladder or another that is value by "society", only to find that what is waiting at the top is not what they expected. No path will lead to happiness if you don't take it upon yourself to find joy in the present moment, and improve that skill regularly.
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