[262]

Surprised nobody posted it yet. Tip reminder: YouTube lets you play videos at up to 2x recorded speed - click Settings.

IMO, you have to find a balance between self-improvement and self-acceptance.

I agree with Roosh that too much self-improvement can be a never-ending treadmill.

But on the other side, too much self-acceptance results in delusional ideas like fat-acceptance, or "I deserve attractive girls because of my politics, regardless of my Game, lifting, etc."

At least in the West, I'd argue we have too much of the latter (self-acceptance), and not enough of the former (self-improvement). Hence the increasing obesity rates and the like.

[GlobalMan]

Tell that to this dude who was a 5'2" 28 y/o virgin, did 3,000 approaches and finally achieved what he desired. I think he will tell you self improvement changed his life.

[Phoenix]

Disagree.

[Cr33pin]

I only watched 5 or so minutes of the video. But I disagree with the idea that seeking self improvement means that one feels like they are not good enough. I know I'm fabulous, but that doesn't mean I shouldn't want to be even more fabulous... There is always room for improvement and there is nothing wrong with wanting to be the best version of yourself possible.

Again I only saw the first part of this video so maybe I am missing something in the message.. I will try to finish it up later when I have more time.

[Phoenix]

Thinking about it, maybe he's right. Take Mr Trump, for instance. He's 70, a billionaire, hot wife, big family, famous. Why would he need to engage in any more self-improvement? Trump isn't enough, he has to be President Trump too? That would clearly be overindulgent and excessive.


Nah...

[Roosh]

Quote:

YouTube lets you play videos at up to 2x recorded speed

But then non-verbal meaning is lost! It's like listening to a singer through autotune.

The video above should be taken in context with two previous videos:

[Chevalier De Seingalt]

I don’t think Roosh’s distinction is between improving or not improving per se. The major point as I see it is that too often “self-improvement” is not done from a positive view of just wanting to do or learn something out of the pure desire to do or learn that thing, but because you have incorporated into your sense of yourself the idea that there is something wrong with you that needs to be fixed. And this attitude often leads to a never-ending and impossible-to-overcome sense of self-dissatisfaction which for some people, maybe many people, prevents them from enjoying the simple pleasures of life as it is.

To my thinking the example of Trump does support Roosh’s point. I doubt that Trump woke up one day and said “I’m not good enough, I have to be president, I must be president and if I’m not then there’s something wrong with me.” No, he thought long and hard about it, and then decided to go for it, and went all in. That’s it. He did it because he wanted to for it’s own sake, not to “improve himself”. And when Roosh uses the example of learning a language just by going out and doing it, that’s exactly what he’s talking about. It’s about doing what you enjoy and makes you satisfied, and being open to life, and that this is sufficient so that you will “improve” naturally, without being consumed by a self-doubting tunnel vision that closes you off from the richness and variety of the everyday world around us.

[Roosh]

Quote:

And when Roosh uses the example of learning a language just by going out and doing it, that’s exactly what he’s talking about. It’s about doing what you enjoy and makes you satisfied, and being open to life, and that this is sufficient so that you will “improve” naturally, without being consumed by a self-doubting tunnel vision that closes you off from the richness and variety of the everyday world around us.

The self-improvement version of learning languages is the Youtube polyglots, who have complex systems to learn multiple languages, and then they are sure to show their abilities online to an audience for attention or e-fame. This is a perversion of an enjoyable activity, communication, by converting it to something goal-oriented, or even as part of a "lifestyle."

I did the same with game. Instead of being a tool to connect with women, I perverted it, made it a way to satisfy my ego through notches. It was a "lifestyle" for a while that caused me considerable inner turmoil when I was doing it for the goal of notches/flags instead of enjoying the company of women.

[Nascimento]

I got a lot out of this video.

But maybe it's because I've had other thoughts/ideas recently that have helped me take this message a different way. A Guide to Rational Living taught me that you don't *need* to be successful. You don't *need* to make tons of money, and you don't need to be surrounded by the best girls.

Some goals are highly desirable. But you certainly don't need them. I feel Roosh is trying to hammer the message that we overthink sometimes what we truly need... Which is just the human essentials. We end up overthinking a bunch of it, and allowing society to shape our goals and desires in ways that could many times prove unfulfilling, or a waste of time.

Is there a rule that suggests you have to be a successful man? This idea that we have to be rich, fit, charismatic, and ultimate alphas is something we often impose on ourselves. Our self-worth cannot be defined by these things. Hell, what defines our self-worth to begin with? Ideally you'll define it yourself, free of any pressure society places on you.

At no point did Roosh say self-improvement is a shameful pursuit. Rather, unnecessary. I think I understood what he meant because when I studied Rational Thinking, I learned that just because something is not needed doesn't mean it can't be desirable sometimes, and to an extent.

Ultimately, if all we had to do was say "yes" and we'd all be rich overnight, none of us would say no. But given that we all have our material comforts in place, being rich is merely desirable--and *not* necessary. The same applies to other areas. We'd all say yes to having a 10 in our bed tonight, but is it really *needed* for us to be content? No. I'm happy with a cute chick as it is.

I also think he's suggesting to be very careful when stepping on the self-improvement treadmill. Some goals are worth the effort, like following an exercise routine to improve your physique and health. But if you're not careful, you could lust for more and more. To the point of where a regular fit body is not enough--you must be 10% body fat with xx" arms to be happy. And once you get there, you may resort to steroids, because you feel the need to be even more muscular.

Just some of my thoughts, even if a bit scrambled. This video made me think quite a bit, the message I got out of it will be different for someone else. Even if you don't agree it, consider the different perspective. It could help you refine your current mindset on the whole thing.

[James Bond Next level]

I think everything in life should be balanced. Obsession can be productive, but can quickly become poisonous. I would venture and say that Roosh is too obsessed with ladies, this consumed a bit himself and after more than a dozen years, even though all his success, he's still unhappy and wonder why. Too much is just too much, he said it himself that he spent a lot of the time chasing girls he wasn't connected with. I'm the 1st to be glad about it, since his intensity produced great things, this forum for example.
As for us, I would advise newbie to do 1-2 years of solid self-improvement. After that, with the experience you gained from that, become more realist and use your judgement to decide what to work on (and what it will cost you) and what to accept. For example, in my case, I know I will never have 6 pack abs : I'm not fat but to stay that good in shape you have to be extra careful of what to eat all the time and I like to enjoy good things from time to time. Besides, a 6 pack won't add much to my life, I'm already attractive and to become more, it's more productive to work on preselection or else. On the other hand, even though I already have decent results in nightgame, I know I can get better without sacrificing much, so I'm working on it.

Know what to work on and what to accept guys...

P.S. I had "A Guide to Rational Living" in mind too, must read!!!

[kazz]

I cant say I agree totally, this is like splitting hairs, there is and endless amount of ways to look at the most simplest of things, let alone something as deep as this. As we get older things become clear through wisdom. I think self improvement and goals are bad words and are bad if they have no purpose, like superficial, fake etc. But you cant always just naturally do what you like, you have to compete, it IS a never ending treadmill. If you believe in evolution and just being a man, and thats why we are here today, you discount all the shit that your bloodline had to do to get you here. I have done the same thing as Roosh since my late 30s thinking oh what a tool I was, my ego ruled me etc. But honestly it had to if I wanted to compete out in the world with other human beings.

We are wired to seek reward, bang a dopamine hit, then another and so on if we didnt we would be the walking dead. When Roosh did this video he said it was because he wanted to, but Roosh did it give you a dopamine hit? It made you feel good right. Why? Because you knew many people would watch it. Would you have done it at all if you new no one would watch it. But you had to improve yourself constantly to get the audience you have now to watch it which included self improvement and committing to goals you did not like. You say kids learn naturally, this is true for some things, but what about learning to read and write? These things are not learned naturally and they are not fun.

Animals dont set goals etc they just know that to mate with that hot piece of Zebra, (or whatever) ass that they have to be the badest ass Zebra to show this. So I see you point in this way that they just do it. But the problem is that Humans are the only animal that uses their big brain to get things. Which means we must constantly improve over time. To the point we are today, setting very weird goals to ensure our genes are continued. Washboard abs, plucked eyebrows and spray on tans, where all we once had to do was club some other cave men, then club the chick and shes yours for the night. Then the concept of money was invented, a paradigm shift in competition, so no we dont need all these material things, but its easy to see from a basic evolutionary perspective why we think we do. Sure we dont need the hottest girl to produce offspring, but look at a hot chick and then an average one, you cant control the primitive instinct, it pumps feel good chemicals into our brain.

Anyway i have gone to deep into this now so I will stop. The subject interests me also because I spent the past two decades chasing pussy, and I now think what the fuck was I doing, but my hormones would not let me do anything else. I honestly wonder if I had some sort of problem, when i see kids today, they dont even seem to talk about girls often.

Good video to get people thinking either way.

Anyway shit now I have gone into this to deep to so I will stop there.

[Roosh]

Quote:

When Roosh did this video he said it was because he wanted to, but Roosh did it give you a dopamine hit? It made you feel good right. Why? Because you knew many people would watch it. Would you have done it at all if you new no one would watch it. But you had to improve yourself constantly to get the audience you have now to watch it which included self improvement and committing to goals you did not like. You say kids learn naturally, this is true for some things, but what about learning to read and write? These things are not learned naturally and they are not fun.

I know why I didn't do it: to do work or for accomplishing goals of more views or subscribers. Because of that, I didn't have to outline the video, edit it, plan it, make a custom thumbnail etc. I wanted to share and create a dialogue, and I've done so, and enjoy reading the perspective of other men.

Ultimately we can go in circles regarding human intent, and even argue that you're doing a behavior for reason X even though you don't consciously realize it. Taken too far, you can say that doing anything besides sitting alone in a dark cave is to "feel good". This is not a useful line of reasoning.

[kazz]

The cognitive dissonance with this can be quite unsettling, when we shown in the west that being successful means constant bigger and better.

I just thought of something my sister said to me the other day, I was stressing that it was hard to get into the field I studied for at uni. This had caused me quite high anxiety for a while. She said none of it matters all you have to really do is work. I thought about it a bit and have not worried about it much since. I dropped the ego somewhat, and am now looking at jobs I would have considered not so high status before.

I hope to see more of this stuff. Its very alien to me but I can see what you getting at.

[PapayaTapper]

(12-03-2016 09:54 AM)Roosh Wrote:  

Quote:

When Roosh did this video he said it was because he wanted to, but Roosh did it give you a dopamine hit? It made you feel good right. Why? Because you knew many people would watch it. Would you have done it at all if you new no one would watch it. But you had to improve yourself constantly to get the audience you have now to watch it which included self improvement and committing to goals you did not like. You say kids learn naturally, this is true for some things, but what about learning to read and write? These things are not learned naturally and they are not fun.

I know why I didn't do it: to do work or for accomplishing goals of more views or subscribers. Because of that, I didn't have to outline the video, edit it, plan it, make a custom thumbnail etc. I wanted to share and create a dialogue, and I've done so, and enjoy reading the perspective of other men.

Ultimately we can go in circles regarding human intent, and even argue that you're doing a behavior for reason X even though you don't consciously realize it. Taken too far, you can say that doing anything besides sitting alone in a dark cave is to "feel good". This is not a useful line of reasoning.

[Phoenix]

(12-03-2016 09:39 AM)kazz Wrote:  

Animals dont set goals etc they just know that to mate with that hot piece of Zebra, (or whatever) ass that they have to be the badest ass Zebra to show this.

I think you mean "high end" zebra.

[Atlanta Man]

I sacrifice a lot to improve my life. I am somewhat behind in my goals because I did not sacrifice at all in my early to late 20's. As a result I am making sacrifices now in my 40's due to my lack of discipline in my youth. Self improvement , real quality self improvement , requires discipline and sacrifice and is often not very enjoyable especially early on.

I respect Roosh and his opinion, but I disagree with him on this particular issue. Self improvement has done wonders for me. Hitting the gym has improved my self confidence and health, focusing on STEM has given me a useful life long knowledge base that will provide me with income, and travel has given me a perspective about life outside of this country that was illuminating. I see nothing wrong with people that research something before trying it,because experience can be an evil whore of a teacher that gives the lecture after final exam. I like the data sheets on RVF and feel no shame in using them.

As we all know the old saying-A smart man learns from his mistakes, a wise man learns from the mistakes of others.

[ElFlaco]

I don't think this video is directed towards the average man who just comes home from work and spends his evening watching TV, with no projects in life. (Anyone remember Roosh's "What's your project?" blog post?) Instead, this video is for those who forget that self-improvement is not the goal itself but rather a means to achieving a goal.

The problem with polyglot language learning is that there is no larger purpose to it. Who really needs to speak five languages at advanced beginner level? It's just a party trick, which I think is Roosh's point. Instead, learn a language because doing so will improve your life (which usually means getting well beyond the beginner level). Use your language to accomplish something valuable to you that you couldn't have achieved without it. Learning the language is not the achievement; it's about what doors it opens. This will rarely involve more than one second language, and for most native English speakers, even a second language is not justified. There's no need unless your business or personal calls for it.

Body building and exercise in general is another example. The external payoffs decline incrementally once you're "good enough". I used to run competitively and it stopped being about fitness and become an obsessively competitive pursuit. Highly enjoyable but ultimately it didn't lead to anything. It's better to work on projects that take you somewhere, I think.

My broader point is that hobbies are bullshit. I didn't think this way ten years ago and maybe I'll have a different perspective in ten years, but I cringe at how much time I wasted when I could have been building something lasting instead.

As for social skills, including sales, being in the top 10% to 20% is probably good enough for most things. I'm not there yet but actively working on it.

[roberto]

(12-03-2016 11:22 AM)Phoenix Wrote:  

(12-03-2016 09:39 AM)kazz Wrote:  

Animals dont set goals etc they just know that to mate with that hot piece of Zebra, (or whatever) ass that they have to be the badest ass Zebra to show this.

I think you mean "high end" zebra.

I'm dying over here

[Quintus Curtius]

Very good (and ballsy) video by brother Roosh here. I say ballsy because it contradicts some of the self-improvement mantras out there that can begin to feel like an endless treadmill and permanent slavery. It's a discussion that needs to be heard. (Did you guys also notice the good video quality? I did. Looks like the new camera really makes a difference).

I would cautiously agree with much of what Roosh has to say, but politely dissent from some of the rest. I do think that too much of what passes as "self-improvement" today consists of endless parroting of boilerplate themes: Do this! Do that! Run over here! Run over there! Get on the internet! Websites! Juicing! Weights! Travel! Game! Language! Go out! Approach! Grades! Work!

You get the idea. After a while, a man just feels like he's in an insane asylum where the other inmates are hucksters selling you everything under the sun. After a while a man just wants to unplug and enjoy some solitude, far from the madding crowds.

But we have to be careful to distinguish between legitimate and necessary self-improvement actions and simply "looking busy" for the sake of being busy. I believe it was the latter that Roosh was criticizing, and not the former. Pirouetting around to collect pointless merit badges and garlands from the mob does none of us any good. It's an exhausting and ultimately futile endeavor.

Yet, after we catch our breath, we should be careful to remember that there is no substitute for living. And life involves an upward climb from the lower to the higher levels of existence. No man was born perfect. He has a sacred duty to polish his soul and prepare it for that ascent to higher levels of being.

And now I'm going to get a bit "out there" on you, but that's fine. You know me by now and you can handle it.

If a man accepts--as I do--a Neoplatonic order of existence with the three hypostases (levels of being) of Soul, Intellect, and the One, then he will understand that it is our responsibility to strive to return to that source from which we came. We should try to move up the spiritual ladder of existence from Soul to the One. And this involves a polishing of the soul. This involves self-sacrifice, discipline, improvement, and dedication. Life is not for dullards or dunces. All of us have this potential, but few make use of it.

I said this in Pantheon (p. 224, commenting on Enneads V.1), and I'll quote it here:

For a man's soul to know its true self, it must return to that from which it came (Intellect). A soul trapped in the material world will forever remain alienated from its true place and source. A turning away from material things will assist the soul in making this upward journey. For every soul, since it is a part of the whole hypostasis Soul, "made all living things itself, breathing life into them, those that the earth feeds and those that are nourished by the sea, and the divine stars in the sky..."

On the next level upwards from Soul is Intellect. Intellect contains all archetypes of reality through the Platonic Forms. Intellect produces and perfects Soul. What produces Intellect? The One, or the Good, which Plotinus also occasionally calls God, produces Intellect. The One is "the productive power of all things" and is "beyond being." The philosophers Anaxagoras and Heracleitus had some knowledge of the primacy of the One. To begin the journey of the ascent from soul to the One, we must be able to listen to our soul's instinctive need to return to its origin. We must be ready to "hear the voices from on high."

So in a spiritual sense, we must pursue self-improvement. It is a spiritual obligation. The knowledge we acquire attaches to us in a profound way and ennobles our souls, and prepares them for their journey to higher states of existence. But it should be done in a balanced, rational way, a way that preserves our sanity, health, and peace of mind.

[The Catalyst]

I think there are two sides to this. I live in New Zealand, where there is a massive culture of mediocrity, anti-intellectualism, socialism etc(relative to the US/Europe). They call it "tall poppy syndrome"(a perceived tendency to discredit or disparage those who have achieved notable wealth or prominence in public life). Success is *very* underrated here. More than half the population would dislike Trump to some degree because of his "arrogance". It's very suffocating because they are very stubbornly small minded and if they aspired to more their life could be better than wallowing in mediocrity and scarcity etc. I understand being lazy and "chill" but a lot of Kiwis aren't even lazy as such and if you're so envious about others success instead of being happy about it then you've got a problem.

At the same time, I feel the self improvement sphere has forgotten that 1) self improvement is a means to an end, not an end in itself and 2) if you're depressed, miserable, resentful, don't see the meaning of life, or have other emotional/mental issues, success is actually not the best way out of it. It's not easy to improve your attitude but it's significantly easier than achieving any significant amount of success to make a dent in how you feel. From my experience doing CBT and REBT and therapy and all that jazz it's easier to go from depressed and resentful constantly, to beaming with joy more than half the time, than it is to... actually get an okay job. Not even a good job or successful business or anything. People in the self improvement sphere tend to overrate how much better they would feel achieving things. Would you rather be so joyful and have such a beaming infectious positive energy that other people can't help but feel better too but broke as hell, or achieve almost everything you ever wanted but are miserable? The former is much easier.

Edit: Oh I forgot to say, without doing CBT or anything, you'd never get to the root cause of the emotional/mental issue. Therefore the success can only mask what you truly feel. And you need a lot of it, and constantly.

[Roosh]

If you liked my original video, you'll really like this talk:

[dies irae]

This is a weak video.

Roosh looks confused and I couldn’t even figure out which audience he is speaking to.

Roosh’s definition of self-improvement is also vague. There are many holes in his argument and what he deems unnecessary self-improvement is not self-improvement at all.

I will go over the messages. If you feel I cherry picked anything out of context, correct me because I don’t think I did it.

Roosh starts with how babies effortlessly learn to talk and how learning to talk comes to them naturally.

The real reason all kids are able to learn how to talk and walk is not about effortlessness. Kids are not embarrassed to make mistakes, that’s how they manage to learn. When they are learning to talk, they make a lot of mistakes until they get it right. When they are learning to walk, they also make many mistakes on the way. They fall flat on their face or butt until they get it right. Next time you go out, watch all the kids. They are all doing stupid things but they just don’t care. Kids don’t have shame.

Mike Cernovich wrote about this. Shame is the killer of self-improvement.

Being shameless and not afraid to be embarrassed to makes mistakes is how we naturally learn. This is a strength. We lose this strength on the way to adulthood. We become embarrassed to make mistakes. Roosh says that we need to accept our weaknesses but what we are actually trying to do is to gain back our strengths.

Roosh points this as “as if there is no natural ability for a man or a woman to learn”. There’s a natural ability but being afraid to make mistakes kills it.

So, the conclusion Roosh arrives is the mindset of “something is wrong with me, I need to self-improve” is wrong. Roosh basically claims that there’s nothing wrong with us. There “is” something wrong with us. We forgot how to learn things.

According to Roosh, another thing wrong with self-improvement is “it never ends.” When you say “I need to constantly improve myself” you miss life.

I agree that it never ends and yes you will miss life if you are building a business, seriously lifting weights while following a strict diet/sleep schedule or reading a book. But this doesn’t mean I should skip improving myself. I will make it clear why it’s necessary later as I comment on the video.

What Roosh addresses as the wrong kind of self-improvement becomes clearer later in the video. He says “”we want to do it right the first time”. I already agreed that this is the wrong way to improve. We learn by making mistakes. But the title of the video is “self-improvement is unnecessary”. Trying to do it right for the first time is not the correct way to imrove yourself. This is not the fault of self-improvement. This is the fault of the person who got self-improvement wrong. If one person is trying to improve himself but he wants to do it right the first time, this doesn’t mean that self-improvement is unnecessary. It means that this person got the essence of self-improvement wrong.

Later, Roosh says that the message from parents to kids is “you are not happy unless you receive these material things”. Roosh objects to this. Well, I object this too, but is this really the kind of self-improvement we are talking about here?

Roosh reduces self-improvement to the need to reach material comfort. He says that self-improvement is unnecessary because we already have material comfort. “We are kings” he says. “If you had all your basic needs met: food, shelter, friends you have everything to be content.”

What audience is Roosh talking to? Who said self-improvement is done by getting everything right at the first try? Who is improving himself for material comfort? Does material comfort mean anything if you are not free?

Self-improvement is the only way to achieve freedom but Roosh makes a video about how unnecessary self-improvement is and doesn’t say a word about freedom.

Later in the video, Roosh loses it more.

He gives an example: “You improve yourself to become a doctor and please your parents but you are not satisfied”. Again, to what audience Roosh is talking to in this video? Is it fair to reduce self-improvement to pleasing our parents and dismiss it as unnecessary?

Roosh finishes the video with “ you no longer need self improvement. I guarantee, anyone who is embarking on a path of self improvement probably (80% chance) already has all his needs met and he doesn’t even need it”

Really?

How do you guarantee it?

Here’s Maslow’s hierarchy of needs. How do you guarantee everyone has all his needs met? An average man struggles at the bottom of the pyramid. How does everybody already has all he needs? How is it possible to climb up the pyramid without self-improvement.

Before I improved myself I had no sex life, I was working for someone else, I was fat and I was weak. Now I have a great sex life, my own business, I’m in terrific shape and I am muscular. None of these was possible without improving myself.

And the funny thing is, it all started by discovering Roosh and I owe him a lot. Now, the man who opened my eyes to truth and inspired me to start improving myself is saying that self-improvement is unnecessary.

I probably wasn’t in the audience this video is intended for, but then again, it’s your fault not to make your audience clear Roosh.

2/10 video. WNWA (Would Not Watch Again)

[SegaSaturn1994]

The only thing I can add to this and the only thing I think I know is that every man (and perhaps women too) is to some extent a slave of his hormonal fluctuations and what not; perhaps gene expression of the brain that changes with age. The older a guy gets, the more mellow and humble he gets because his body can no longer take the abuse of battles in the same way so that's why we evolved to be more submissive as we age, presumably after passing on our genes.

Dudes who don't take care of themselves or have bad genetics are already physical wrecks at Roosh's age in some instances and if those dudes are set financially, they can essentially play 'mellow game' which fits their increasing limitations and disillusionment; instead of trying to be a spring chicken to attract girls, they will try to be contagious in their calm and self-content demeanour. Assuming that they have lived a satisfying youth; if not, I imagine they would be bitter, neurotic and torn.

Can a set and settled 39 year old guy convince a 19 year old virgin to adopt his views? Perhaps for a night but he cannot extinguish the fire for long. The reality we live in our heads is affected by the chemical events beyond our control.

[Gaudente]

(12-03-2016 05:43 AM)GlobalMan Wrote:  

Tell that to this dude who was a 5'2" 28 y/o virgin, did 3,000 approaches and finally achieved what he desired. I think he will tell you self improvement changed his life.

If he had hired a hooker he would have done it in just 1 approach and saved a lot of effort and humiliation.

[Tresdus]

I don't really get the point of the video. If I only did what I liked I'd be playing video games 12 hours a day. Sure it made me happy when I was doing that for 3 years of my life but I was still a virgin with basically no real friends.

I like lifting. I like reading books. I like leaving my comfort zone.

And this isn't because of some societal standard. I would still selfimprove if I were the last person on earth. I'd lift 6x/week if there were no women on earth.

I don't think the Roosh that published Bang 10 years ago would agree with the video. You are only able to say self-improvement doesn't matter because you build up your income and sex life through self-improvement (or learning). If you hadn't forced yourself at times to continue writing you wouldn't have the freedom now to say you can work whenever you want to.