[_DC_]

I'm a decent sized guy... 6'0" and 180 lbs.

I've very confident in my look, thinking I'm the best or one of the best looking in a bar at any given night (this is much less important to some people, but I agree at lot with Assanova's posts). Anyway, I seem to have a decent amount invested in my looks.

That being said, I don't have much confidence in my body. Well, I should say I do, it's just not up to par with my facial features . I feel like my good vibes would increase 10x with 20lbs of extra mass.

Has anybody done serious lifting for the first time in their upper 20s? I've got decent strength, but I haven't lifted for a year (e.g. maybe 200 1RM on bench). I've started Rippletoe's "Starting Strength". You basically squat 3x a week, and do bench press, shoulder press, deadlifts, and chips/pullups. All heavy compound movements and full body workouts.

Maybe this is more a question for a body building forum, but I'd like to hear posters on the board and if they saw any great "beginner gains" in the first few months doing a similar program.

From all my research, with a good program (heavy compound lifts) a beginner can gain 20-25 lbs in a year (with most of that coming in the first six months). Gaining 15lbs in six months would certainly be awesome. I've also a natural increase in testosterone now that I'm lifting heavy. Just need to stop masturbation now and I should be an animal on weekends.

Any success stories with a similar program?

[AJ]

I'm sure this has been addressed somewhere and others may have better advice but I'm a similar size as you and so I'll just post my observations. Just to let you know I have a body where if I go 1month+ without working out I lose muscle mass rapidly ~5-10lbs. I've always been relatively "cut" but have a little trouble keeping mass.

Lifted throughout college but saw little gains. ~10lbs throughout

Afterwards got a job and had a consistent schedule. I was using a similar program as through college but there was a period of 2-3 months where I just ate chicken breast for lunch and dinner. ~2-2.5lbs of chicken a day. Grossest thing ever.

But saw myself gain ~15+lbs over that period of time.

Since then I've been steadily improving but I never experienced that much gain again in such a short period of time and don't want to go back to eating like that. I had a bit of a disdain for food instilled in me after that.

So I found the 2 critical things for me were.

(1) Food
(2) Consistency in workout/sleep

I find a lot of the best programs will achieve similar results. But Food/consistency will usually be the biggest limiting factors for most people. Just FYI there's a program out there called Adonis. A jacked friend of mine (1RM bench ~400) recommended it but it looks intense.

[Stitch]

DC:

I went through the beginner's program in Starting Strength until the easy gains were over, and even drank a fair amount of milk in that period for extra calories (and felt like I needed it; particularly on deadlift days I was hungry ALL THE TIME). I put on about 20 lbs of weight and almost all of it went in the right places, showing big gains in chest/arms/legs/shoulders. The use of large muscle groups also did indeed up testosterone production (I think) since I had greater libido (had blue balls for the first time in years, for example). I was almost 40 at the time and still saw that kind of gains over a fairly short period.

I'd worked out plenty in the past, but no single program had made the most obvious visual physiological gains. I did put on a little fat as well, but it came off (and has stayed off) once I stopped the excess calories; overall result was very good.

Highly recommended.

[Dash Global]

You can certainly gain 20+ pounds in a year.

Like the above poster said, the two most important things imo are

1) Consistent heavy lifting routine (3-4 times a week)

2) Consume alot of food (more specifically protein)

[BoiBoi]

I just started the program two weeks ago, so I cant commend on any long term results yet, but so far I was able to increase my squat from 130lbs to 165lbs and all the exercises also went through the roof. Matter of fact, Im going to do some deadlifting today, almost hitting 200lbs!

[amistod]

I am still in the beginning stages of this program. I find it pretty hard to solo, so I am using a deadlift machine and squatting light weights until I know my form is right.

Sometimes I wonder if I should just focus on losing my weight first. Ripptoe says that if you just start grinding, your weight should stay the same but your body comp will change.I have noticed this to be true.

[kimleebj]

(08-10-2011 04:09 AM)BoiBoi Wrote:  

I just started the program two weeks ago, so I cant commend on any long term results yet, but so far I was able to increase my squat from 130lbs to 165lbs and all the exercises also went through the roof. Matter of fact, Im going to do some deadlifting today, almost hitting 200lbs!

Is this a joke? I'm not hating, and accept that people are different. But I always warmed up with a 135 pound squat. You are a complete beginner and should have big gains ahead. Early gains will be fast and neural, not as a result of muscle. You have the long-run potential to double those weights for your one rep max.

Keep your form good.

[BoiBoi]

(08-10-2011 11:01 AM)kimleebj Wrote:  

(08-10-2011 04:09 AM)BoiBoi Wrote:  

I just started the program two weeks ago, so I cant commend on any long term results yet, but so far I was able to increase my squat from 130lbs to 165lbs and all the exercises also went through the roof. Matter of fact, Im going to do some deadlifting today, almost hitting 200lbs!

Is this a joke? I'm not hating, and accept that people are different. But I always warmed up with a 135 pound squat. You are a complete beginner and should have big gains ahead. Early gains will be fast and neural, not as a result of muscle. You have the long-run potential to double those weights for your one rep max.

Keep your form good.

No, its no joke. I did some lifting several years ago, but due to some injuries, i couldnt do any sports for quite some time and just recently got back on the horse, so Im quite glad with my improvements.

[dk902]

I read http://www.t-nation.com and the author and the programme 'Starting Strength' get a good rep on there. The guy who wrote my programme (Jim Wendler), which I've talked about before and highly recommend 5/3/1 says when in doubt 'squat and run hills' - this is never a bad adage. So squatting 3 times a week could see some serious gains, especially for a beginner.

"Gaining 15lbs in six months would certainly be awesome." I think you'll be in for a shock if you think it can be that easy, as if muscle was so easy to put on every one would do it. It's certainly do-able but your calories have to be humongous. Eating everything in sight is not a bad idea. Eat til you're full and eat some more, and lots of protein.

Lifting weights and building the body you want and getting a good level of strength takes a long time, but not many people have the patience or the discipline to follow it through to really get good at it. People think you can squat 500lbs overnight. This takes years to build. Right now I can deadlift 450lbs and I'm 180lbs, but it's taken me 3 years of busting my ass to get here and I still don't even consider that to be strong.

A beginner should focus on heavy compound lifts...so doing starting strength is a great idea. Eat lots, lift heavy and you'll be good.

[Basil Ransom]

(08-09-2011 10:52 PM)_DC_ Wrote:  

Has anybody done serious lifting for the first time in their upper 20s? I've got decent strength, but I haven't lifted for a year (e.g. maybe 200 1RM on bench). I've started Rippletoe's "Starting Strength". You basically squat 3x a week, and do bench press, shoulder press, deadlifts, and chips/pullups. All heavy compound movements and full body workouts.

Maybe this is more a question for a body building forum, but I'd like to hear posters on the board and if they saw any great "beginner gains" in the first few months doing a similar program.

From all my research, with a good program (heavy compound lifts) a beginner can gain 20-25 lbs in a year (with most of that coming in the first six months). Gaining 15lbs in six months would certainly be awesome.

You won't get beginner gains, because you are not a beginner.

My experience.

I've done Starting Strength off and on. I never got out of novice territory (1.5x bodyweight squat), got as far as 225 squat for 5 at BW of 180-185, and deadlift of ~300 at 180.

Your legs may get huge: Despite not being that strong, my legs and ass have gotten so big (25-26" & 41") that it's hard to find attractive pants that fit. I have a closet full of nice suits that no longer fit. My torso got bigger, but did not keep up with my legs. My arms trailed behind the rest of my torso, at 13.5" at 6'1" 180, partly due to a thin, lanky frame.

I've started to incorporate a bit of isolation exercises, and substituted exercises when I started plateauing on those in SS. I switched from bench pressing to weighted dips, and then added in tricep pushdowns. These, in concert with a 10 lb increase in bodyweight, have added ~.5-.75" to my arms, to 14.25 over the course of a couple months. I'm now ~193, 6'1." Weighted pullups and chins, technically not in the SS program, added thickness to my upper back that deadlifts did not.

I've done some shrugs, but my traps seem to be the same size. I stopped pressing, because I was plateauing at 125 for 5, and I didn't bother to get form critique to take me to the next level, but I'll definitely get back to it. Trying out incline barbell pressing now. I tried dumbbell pressing, but it exhausts my wrists and joints long before the muscle being targeted.

I'm not knocking it, I'm just saying know what you're in for. If you're only in it for the looks, you don't need to squat so much. Big legs aren't going to help you like big arms and broad shoulders will. You could probably do with moving squats to the end of the workout, or doing them less often.

That said, squatting and deadlifting heavy feels incredible when done right.

15 lbs in six months is definitely doable for even non-beginners.

From Rippetoe:

Quote:

We have a member here at WFAC who gained 55 pounds in 11 weeks. I shit you not. Zach Evetts started with us here in late August of 2009 and by November 12 when I weighed him and measured his bodyfat he had gained a total of 55 pounds of bodyweight and a little over 31 pounds of lean body mass (LBM). This calculates to a LBM gain of 2.84 pounds per week, approximately the rate of growth seen in young farm animals. Little baby pigs grow about this fast, and lots of people make money by raising baby pigs.

http://startingstrength.com/articles/nov...ppetoe.pdf (Before/After pics in link)

His strength gains are even more impressive.

Quote:

Anyway, I seem to have a decent amount invested in my looks.

You sound like you want people to compliment your looks. On a forum full of dudes.

[Roosh]

My problem is gaining weight. I'm lazy about nutrition so what happens is I get cut more than big. I'm simply not eating enough and I know it.

But like basil, my legs are turning into tree trunks. My ass in taking on a bubble shape.

Quote:

Right now I can deadlift 450lbs and I'm 180lbs

[UgSlayer]

(08-10-2011 01:53 PM)dk902 Wrote:  

This takes years to build. Right now I can deadlift 450lbs and I'm 180lbs, but it's taken me 3 years of busting my ass to get here and I still don't even consider that to be strong.

That's awesome. 450 pounds at 180. You are no slouch, my friend. What do you consider strong, then?

[_DC_]

Random, if I posted a bunch of pics, indeed that would be pretty


But alas, I did not.

I'm not just doing the starting strength routine. I'm doing it as a basis and adding a few other exercises, namely, rows, chipups, and pullups, all which are supposed to be superior to lowly arm curls for biceps.

You stated that I'm not a beginner, but I disagree. The longest I've ever gone in my life is 3 months with any semblance of a lifting program. Its also been an entire year since said last 3 month stint of weightlifting. Rippletoe himself states that if you are a bicep curl monkey, or have never been dedicated to eat well (e.g. enough calories and lots and lots of protein) that you are effectively a "begineer".

At 6'0", 180, and 33.5" waist, I'm hoping my frame allow me to gain some serious mass.

I will keep people posted, maybe a 2 month update. No pictures though. Unless somebody asks

[Screwston]

I'm like roosh. I know I ain't eating enough if I really want to get big. My body has slowly been getting cut but I'm still skinny. I don't want to eat like a pig because my belly starts coming in if I take a break from jogging for a few days.


My uncle is built like henry rollins and laughed when I told him about switching to a strictly protein diet. He said just cut back on junk food and cokes and hit the weights as much as possible.

I try to jog for about 15 or 20 min one day and the hit the weights the next. I'm only 5'8 and about 160 pounds but my stomach blows up fast if I take breaks from jogging! Its fucking annoying.

[flashbang]

I saw very fast gains in muscle size on this program but slower gains in strength. Perhaps it's because I train at home without a spotter so I can't always go all out.

One thing though. 3 times a week squatting? When I squat I'm sore for 4 to 5 days minimum. If I squat 3 times a week, the 3rd time, it's extremely hard to match the intensity of the first time. Is there some way to cycle this?

[bengalltigerr]

I'm in the same boat Roosh, my legs are quite big but my arms are below average in size and my shoulders are just about average. I've been lifting for the last couple of years, I went from skinny to average but I can't seem to get bigger matter how hard I try. People tell me that I should eat a lot, but I never really tried it because I got stomach issues that don't allow me to eat too much.

[kimleebj]

(08-11-2011 11:43 AM)flashbang Wrote:  

When I squat I'm sore for 4 to 5 days minimum. If I squat 3 times a week, the 3rd time, it's extremely hard to match the intensity of the first time.

I agree. I don't think you should squat hard more than once per week. Maybe you can do twice per week if you do front squats once and then back squats (or hack squat, sissy squats, etc.). For me, heavy deadlifts should only be done every 10-14 days.

I can only guess that the three times per week recommendation is for beginners who lack intensity.

[Giovonny]

I highly recommend "Overhead Squats".

This work almost everything at the same time

[dk902]

(08-10-2011 04:58 PM)UgSlayer Wrote:  

(08-10-2011 01:53 PM)dk902 Wrote:  

This takes years to build. Right now I can deadlift 450lbs and I'm 180lbs, but it's taken me 3 years of busting my ass to get here and I still don't even consider that to be strong.

That's awesome. 450 pounds at 180. You are no slouch, my friend. What do you consider strong, then?

Hey dude, yeah it wasn't to be boastful, it was just to say when I read about guys who lift 600lbs I think to myself 'I'm not even strong.' It's like when I read something Mixx or Roosh writes after I've been on a hot streak and I think I need to do more, which is good and makes you aspire, but I suppose you can't compare yourself to those sorts of people!

I'll be happy when I can deadlift 600lbs, I think that will be in 2-3 years time. My other lifts pale in comparison to my deadlift, I think there's something about my physiology that makes me excel at it (I'm only 5"10). However one thing I have found is great grip strength = great deadlift.

One exercise I do and can't recommend enough is the Kroc Row. The concept is getting a heavy dumbell and doing bent over rows with a heavy weight then doing as many reps as you can between 20-50 reps. These are humbling but good. Best left for the end of a workout, to give it your all. I can't tell you how much this has improved my deadlift from doing it every week for the past 2 years. Also I never do any direct Lat work, and they give you some serious wings, like you would almost take off! I never have a problem locking out a deadlift and my grip never fails me. Also I never deadlift without chalk, if your gym doesn't let you, use liquid chalk. Also one other tip for deadlifts, to improve your grip, on your warm-up sets use a double-overhand grip.

Other good deadlift improvers are Good-Mornings, Glute Ham Raises, and your staple compounds, i.e. Dips, Military Press, Squat and Bench that all help. As the deadlift basically uses every muscle in your body to get that weight off the floor. Deadlifting builds a great set of traps and an awesome back. I know so many guys that don't Squat or Deadlift...their loss.

I compare lifting weights in many ways to game, it takes time and practice to get good. You have to spend hours in the gym, learning the motor patterns and putting your body through its paces, like pounding pavement but in this case iron. Also for me, strength is like high-end players who say there is no end game once you're in the game. I can't ever say there's a weight I will reach that I will ever be happy at, I will always want more and to lift more, unless I reach my genetic ceiling [unlikely!]

One final thing, in terms of squats, I think it's more than fine to squat 3 times a week. Your body gets used to it...read this article excerpt (article can be found here)

Quote:

There's no Such Thing as Overtraining

If you got a job as a garbage man and had to pick up heavy cans all day long, the first day would probably be very difficult, possibly almost impossible for some to complete. So what do you do, take three days off and possibly lose your job?

No, you'd take your sore, beaten self to work the next day. You'd mope around and be fatigued, much less energetic than the previous day, but you'd make yourself get through it. Then you'd get home, soak in the tub, take aspirin, etc. The next day would be even worse.

But eventually you'd be running down the street tossing cans around and joking with your coworkers. How did this happen? You forced your body to adapt to the job at hand! If you can't' squat and lift heavy every day you're not overtrained, you're undertrained! Could a random person off the street come to the gym with you and do your exact workout? Probably not, because they're undertrained. Same goes with most lifters when compared to elite athletes.

[dk902]

(08-11-2011 03:12 PM)Giovonny Wrote:  

I highly recommend "Overhead Squats".

This work almost everything at the same time

As my friend in the military says, Overhead Squats = All Body Assault.

[AJ]

(08-11-2011 02:32 PM)bengalltigerr Wrote:  

People tell me that I should eat a lot, but I never really tried it because I got stomach issues that don't allow me to eat too much.

I'm in the same boat. I used to force myself to eat as I naturally have a small appetite. Also I'm really busy so I don't have time to prepare foods like dedicated body builders do.

One way around it was to

(1) find foods that take up low physical space but are high in protein.

- cup of egg whites in the morning @ 24g a cup. you can buy this at the store
- Protein bars @ 20g of protein a pop. buy these online for ~$1/bar
- and of course protein shakes.

(2) instead of 3 really big meals intersperse small meals throughout the day.

[Basil Ransom]

(08-11-2011 03:57 PM)AJ Wrote:  

(08-11-2011 02:32 PM)bengalltigerr Wrote:  

People tell me that I should eat a lot, but I never really tried it because I got stomach issues that don't allow me to eat too much.

I'm in the same boat. I used to force myself to eat as I naturally have a small appetite. Also I'm really busy so I don't have time to prepare foods like dedicated body builders do.

One way around it was to

(1) find foods that take up low physical space but are high in protein.

- cup of egg whites in the morning @ 24g a cup. you can buy this at the store
- Protein bars @ 20g of protein a pop. buy these online for ~$1/bar
- and of course protein shakes.

(2) instead of 3 really big meals intersperse small meals throughout the day.

Gaining weight is like fucking bitches. In order to succeed, you have to stop being a pussy. Hell, half the advice on this forum boils down to "stop being a pussy." For our purposes, that means eating lots and lots of calories: several whole eggs, whole milk if you can stomach it, several strips of bacon, cream, butter, cheese, fish and fatty meats. Forget fucking around with overpriced undersized protein bars. If you really have trouble, make shakes with a cup of heavy whipping cream, that's 800 calories right there. The skinnier you are, the more sugary carbs you can handle without getting fat.

If you're not gaining weight, you're not trying. You'd rather bitch about being skinny than take decisive action. Show me a hardgainer and I'll show you a guy who's putting down a piddling 3000 calories a day.

Here's an inspirational story:

Quote:

There was a time at the Old Westside gym where I couldn’t gain weight to save my fucking life.

There was this dude who trained there who could just put on weight like fucking magic. He’d go from 198 to 308 and then to 275 and back down to 198. And he was never fat. It was amazing.

I finally asked him one day how he did it.

“You mean I never told you the secret to gaining weight? Come outside and I’ll fill you in.”

Now remember, we’re at Westside Barbell. And this guy wants to go outside to talk so no one else can hear. Think about that for a minute. What the hell is he going to tell me? This must be some serious shit if we have to go outside, I thought.

So we get outside and he starts talking.

“For breakfast you need to eat four of those breakfast sandwiches from McDonalds. I don’t care which ones you get, but make sure to get four. Order four hash browns, too. Now grab two packs of mayonnaise and put them on the hash browns and then slip them into the sandwiches. Squish that shit down and eat. That’s your breakfast.”

At this point I’m thinking this guy is nuts. But he’s completely serious.

“For lunch you’re gonna eat Chinese food. Now I don’t want you eating that crappy stuff. You wanna get the stuff with MSG. None of that non-MSG bullshit. I don’t care what you eat but you have to sit down and eat for at least 45 minutes straight. You can’t let go of the fork. Eat until your eyes swell up and become slits and you start to look like the woman behind the counter.”

“For dinner you’re gonna order an extra-large pizza with everything on it. Literally everything. If you don’t like sardines, don’t put ’em on, but anything else that you like you have to load it on there. After you pay the delivery guy, I want you to take the pie to your coffee table, open that fucker up, and grab a bottle of oil. It can be olive oil, canola oil, whatever. Anything but motor oil. And I want you to pour that shit over the pie until half of the bottle is gone. Just soak the shit out of it.”

“Now before you lay into it, I want you to sit on your couch and just stare at that fucker. I want you to understand that that pizza right there is keeping you from your goals.”

This guy is in a zen-like state when he’s talking about this.

“Now you’re on the clock,” he continues. “After 20 minutes your brain is going to tell you you’re full. Don’t listen to that shit. You have to try and eat as much of the pizza as you can before that 20-minute mark. Double up pieces if you have to. I’m telling you now, you’re going to get three or four pieces in and you’re gonna want to quit. You fucking can’t quit. You have to sit on that couch until every piece is done.

And if you can’t finish it, don’t you ever come back to me and tell me you can’t gain weight. ’Cause I’m gonna tell you that you don’t give a fuck about getting bigger and you don’t care how much you lift!”

Did I do it? Hell yeah. Started the next day and did it for two months. Went from 260 pounds to 297 pounds. And I didn’t get much fatter. One of the hardest things I’ve ever done in my life, though.

Your meals should look like this, or bigger:





When I lived near Fatburger, I'd eat these regularly, quadruple 1/2 lb patties. The tray would be soaked with melted beef fat by the end. I'd momentarily lose my will to live. The Mexican at the counter would give me that knowing nod, and a free soda. Friends would stare at my meals, aghast, maws agape, confident that a myocardial infarction was in my immediate future.



I don't always eat enough to gain. And I'm not huge by any means. But I don't delude myself that I'm a "hardgainer."

[dk902]

I've read that article too Basil, good shit. Written by Dave Tate right? He's a big inspiration for me in the weightlifting world and life in general.

[flashbang]

(08-11-2011 02:58 PM)kimleebj Wrote:  

(08-11-2011 11:43 AM)flashbang Wrote:  

When I squat I'm sore for 4 to 5 days minimum. If I squat 3 times a week, the 3rd time, it's extremely hard to match the intensity of the first time.

I agree. I don't think you should squat hard more than once per week. Maybe you can do twice per week if you do front squats once and then back squats (or hack squat, sissy squats, etc.). For me, heavy deadlifts should only be done every 10-14 days.

I can only guess that the three times per week recommendation is for beginners who lack intensity.

Thanks for the reply man. I agree especially about the deadlifts, which done incorrectly can cause mayhem on the spine.

[AJ]

(08-11-2011 05:24 PM)basilransom Wrote:  

Gaining weight is like fucking bitches. In order to succeed, you have to stop being a pussy. Hell, half the advice on this forum boils down to "stop being a pussy." For our purposes, that means eating lots and lots of calories: several whole eggs, whole milk if you can stomach it, several strips of bacon, cream, butter, cheese, fish and fatty meats. Forget fucking around with overpriced undersized protein bars. If you really have trouble, make shakes with a cup of heavy whipping cream, that's 800 calories right there. The skinnier you are, the more sugary carbs you can handle without getting fat.

If you're not gaining weight, you're not trying. You'd rather bitch about being skinny than take decisive action. Show me a hardgainer and I'll show you a guy who's putting down a piddling 3000 calories a day.

I don't always eat enough to gain. And I'm not huge by any means. But I don't delude myself that I'm a "hardgainer."

Easy tiger...

It all depends what the lifter wants. There are many ways to go about this.

Is what you suggested the best way to go about gaining way in the shortest period of time. Absolutely. I went down a similar route for a couple of months packing hard boiled eggs as snacks, eating only chicken breasts for lunch/dinner and gained a decent amount of weight. But no lies.. it sucked.

Now can you gain that same weight on a longer time horizon with less effort focused on eating. Sure. For those that are pressed for time/have a longer time horizon to gain weight/not taking this terribly seriously/and are a bit lazy on eating eating - high protein foods in bursts isn't too bad. Breakfast (cereal + egg whites) 40g, Lunch 50g Dinner 50, Bar 20, Shake 35 gives you close to 200g with minimal effort. I've been consistently putting on lean muscle with it and so it's fine by me. You'll just have to adjust it to how your body responds.

The protein bars are overpriced but I've tried cans of tuna and other stuff and this is the path of least resistance in terms of time and not hating tuna. $1/bar for something that tastes decent isn't terribly bad.

Eating like a monster might get there faster but I think both ways will get to the same spot eventually. Is that being a pussy? I have no idea.

As for the existence of hard-gainers, I haven't seen any evidence for or against it so I can't comment.