[Jaydublin]

"Mr. Trump, put up that wall!!!"

[SirTimothy]

Relevant video for those interested.

A wall is very doable, and would be more than worth the cost. Obviously we still need to do other things like reduce welfare, and crack down on sanctuary cities and employers that hire illegals.

[Leonard D Neubache]

The wall is more than a physical barrier.

It's a declaration of intent and a talisman for a nation to rally around before it dissolves into globalist mush.

For a nation, drugs and wetbacks are not nearly as destructive as a loss of identity. Why do you think the leftist leaders push ALL forms of immigration (legal and otherwise) so desperately when it creates a black hole for welfare and most of their own base is against it?

The wall says to illegal immigrants "you may still get here, but you know you are not welcome."

The wall says to Americans "we have no intention of replacing you."

It's about the most beneficial use of federal funding I could possibly imagine. To say otherwise would be like claiming the
Statue of Liberty is a waste of metal that could have been used to build a few miles of railroad or a bridge.

[GlobalMan]

(09-22-2016 08:36 PM)AboveAverageJoe Wrote:  

..if you get pulled over for a minor traffic infraction and don't have a valid DL, you go to jail.

Is it a good idea to have more arrests and more people (besides illegals) in jail for administrative traffic violations? I'm not so sure it is. Either way, this is down to individual state law and wouldn't be something possible to implement across the board, even if desirable. It also would indeed cost money. More people in jail requires more staff and resources.

Quote:

as illegals aren't protected by the Constitution, thus they are not legally deserving of due process.

This is not the case. The Fourteenth Amendment as well as the Supreme Court says otherwise. Whether they deserve it or not, the fact is there are numerous federal laws and due process protections for deportation that will not be able to be changed without an amendment to the constitution or a new decision by the Supreme Court. (There are however some differences in expediency with how things are done with deportation if an illegal is captured in the act at the border itself)

Quote:

I also know that when accosted by police in the US you are required to provide your SS#.

If you don't have one you are clearly not a US citizen. You may be a legal alien but that could be sorted out while being held during the 72 hours that police are allowed to hold you without charging you.

You are not required to give a social security number to police in a routine traffic stop. They can ask, just as they can ask for anything they want, and sometimes they do as it makes it easier for the dispatcher to identify a person- but you can refuse to give it. They certainly won't be able to hold you for any amount of time, let alone 72 hours, based on refusal to give a SS number alone. There would need to be reasonable suspicion of a crime- not giving SS number is not one.

Quote:

I am trying to look for solutions where the budgets, manpower and laws are already in place.

Some of these solutions are contrary to settled law that won't be able to be changed, or will indeed require much more spending. I definitely do agree that drivers licenses should never have been given to illegals, that has created numerous other problems.

------

There are many things we can and should be doing, it is just a reality that it will take some spending to do so. That shouldn't stop us from tackling this extremely important issue.

Build that wall.

[Suits]

(09-22-2016 09:18 PM)GlobalMan Wrote:  

(09-22-2016 08:36 PM)AboveAverageJoe Wrote:  

..if you get pulled over for a minor traffic infraction and don't have a valid DL, you go to jail.

Is it a good idea to have more arrests and more people (besides illegals) in jail for administrative traffic violations? I'm not so sure it is. Either way, this is down to individual state law and wouldn't be something possible to implement across the board, even if desirable. It also would indeed cost money. More people in jail requires more staff and resources.

You're saying that we should have an efficient system for deporting individuals illegally living in the USA because it would cost money?

[GlobalMan]

Suits, Joe started the thread with the premise that we should not build a wall because it will cost money, I am playing devils advocate pointing out that his ideas also cost money (in addition to some simply not being feasible regardless of cost). I am in no way opposed to spending money to fix the problem, as I made clear at the end of my post. I think we should build a wall, enforce laws, do everything we can within reason. I'm simply pointing out the very apparent flaws of his alternative solutions that he is arguing for in place of a wall.

Do you agree that getting multiple states (some which are Blue) to change state statutes on traffic violations seems unlikely, impossible actually? This is not something Trump or the federal government can do.

A wall is something we can do, with almost no downside.

[Latinopan]

Are we really questioning if the United States Of America can build a wall?

[Handsome Creepy Eel]

A few billions for a wall is chump change. USA just wasted $40 billion on "humanitarian assistance" to one of the richest countries in the world. This is nothing for a country that maintains 800 military bases in the remotest corners of the world, often in conditions much worse than Texas.

Of course you should also provide a disincentive, but walls work and they work well. If you are just going the disincentive route without any physical barriers, you'll get swamped. There's not enough Border Patrol agents in the world to stop the millions and millions of illegals pouring into the country. For an example, just see Italy, Germany and related countries and compare them to Hungary:

The wall won't cost much and will pay for itself in only a few years. All I have to say to this defeatist essay is:

[The Beast1]

Just stop giving militry aid to Israel and humanitarian aid to do nothing African countries for 3-4 years. Boom wall built, problem solved.

[Leonard D Neubache]

Personally if I were an American I would be honoured to be part of the wall building team.

The wall will be this depression's Hoover Dam.

[AboveAverageJoe]

@Dash Global Police can hold you in any state without charges for either 48 or 72 hours without charging you of any crime. I don't know where you live but in Texas if you can't show a valid DL you are placed in silver bracelets and given an indefinite, all expenses paid, state vacation.

To all the commenters saying America can't build a wall- I never once in this thread said we could not build a wall. I said it would be a massive project, expensive, and fraught with legal, logistical and geographical problems. All while we already have the tools at hand to eliminate illegal immigration and those already here. The proplem is the elites who own the big construction businesses, mega-farms, hotel and restaurant chains all want them here for the cheap labor they provide. As I said in my OP: De-incentivize economic opportunity and enforce standing laws and watch the deluge slow to a trickle.

Carry on.

[Tigre]

(09-23-2016 04:27 AM)Leonard D Neubache Wrote:  

Personally if I were an American I would be honoured to be part of the wall building team.

The wall will be this depression's Hoover Dam.

I also think that once the Wall is built, they should create a variant of the Adopt a Highway program.

Adopt a piece of Wall!

You ensure your stretch of wall is pristine and structurally sound. You also feed the alligators once in a while (but keep them kind of hungry, too).

[Irenicus]

I have been reading OP's initial post, and I agree with him.


While Trump's wall will certainly lower the illegal (!!) immigration, it will not stop it, in the long run. If people really have a motivation to pass it...sooner or later, they will find a way. Therefore, you need to discourage people from crossing. Such as (from top of my head):


- Make any kind of amnesty illegal by law.

- Border patrols can use lethal force if necessary.

- Illegals cannot use any public services, and receive any form of assistance from governmental/private institutions.


Not pretty, I know, but...it is you or them.




So, again...a wall alone will not fix the problem. I have an example that proves my point.

That example is the wall that separates the Spanish enclaves of Ceuta and Melilla from Marocco. Despite everything, people are not afraid to get shot or harmed because they know that, once they reach those enclaves (which are part of EU, of course), that:


- nobody will ever bother to deport them

- they will get money and housing (either from EU or private NGO agencies).


So...as long as EU and her retarded laws exist, and as long people like our good friend Palpatine (you know whom I am referring to) exist...walls will be useless. The only solution would be to make immigration laws strict as fuck, and to severely punish people who ignore these laws.




Now, a good examples of how this is handled are Israel and Australia.



Israel had, for years, problems with illegal immigrants coming from various African countries (which were coming from the Egyptian border). Not only did they build a wall (which you cannot cross without being detected either by the IDF or Egyptian troops, trust me on that) which made all illegal crossing drop OVERNIGHT, but they (Israel) even changed the law. What they did is that they offered all the illegals incentives (money + ticket) to leave during a certain time period. After that period, if they were caught, they wold be deported, and would not get any money. UN and EU were, of course, pissed.

Too bad.




Now, Australia. Although they have a wall of sorts (ocean), they, when the ruckus in the ME started, basically printed tons of leaflets in Arabic, Farsi etc. telling potential illegals that they are not welcome, in a literal sense.

No matter what your age is. No matter what your occupation is. You are not welcome. You have to go back.


Here you can see one of the leaflets, and video;

http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/australi...lcome-here

Simple...yet...effective.

[nomadbrah]

I'm seeing this talking point about the wall making its way around international media. I take it as a sign that the media has accepted Trump will be president and now try to spoil his policy.

[nomadbrah]

(09-23-2016 04:27 AM)Leonard D Neubache Wrote:  

Personally if I were an American I would be honoured to be part of the wall building team.

The wall will be this depression's Hoover Dam.

Yes!

Have your best minds, engineers, constructors come together NASA style to solve this problem, then the tech can be exported for profit to European countries.

[GlobalMan]

(09-23-2016 08:05 AM)AboveAverageJoe Wrote:  

@Dash Global

?

(09-23-2016 08:05 AM)AboveAverageJoe Wrote:  

Police can hold you in any state without charges for either 48 or 72 hours without charging you of any crime. I don't know where you live but in Texas if you can't show a valid DL you are placed in silver bracelets and given an indefinite, all expenses paid, state vacation.

You are skipping a step. Yes, you can be held without charges for a certain amount of time- if you've been arrested based on reasonable suspicion of having committed a crime. They don't need to charge you, but they must have reasonable suspicion in order to have arrested you in the first place.

In Texas yes you must show your drivers license, but you are not required to give a social security number as part of a traffic stop. They can ask, but refusing to do so is not a crime and a person cannot be arrested or "held" based on that alone, that is what I'm talking about. This is where your idea for checking citizen status via demanding SS number in traffic stop scenario will not work, depending on location. (and further reason why it has been a terrible idea to give drivers licenses to illegals, as you said). If, however, they have committed a driving or other infraction that leads to them getting arrested (like not having a DL) then the police will be able to verify citizenship status when processing takes place at the jail. We need to stop the "catch and release" of illegals that happens so often at that point.

[Laner]

If guys here think the USA/Mexico border will be hard to build, think about Mexico/Guatemala border wall they are going to have to build.

I mean it was such a mind bending issue that Mexico's Finance Minister quit just after Mr.Trumps first meeting with President Nieto.

[beta_plus]

(09-22-2016 03:29 PM)redpillage Wrote:  

Four words: Drones with machine guns.

Favorite quote: 'That was awesome! Look at the guy's head rolling down the hill'.

Maybe the Russians can lend us a few of those puppies ;-)

Damn it! You beat me to it!

Though I prefer my "flying lead" walls to be a bit more old school.

[GlobalMan]

-double post

[Dr. Howard]

(09-22-2016 09:16 PM)Leonard D Neubache Wrote:  

The wall is more than a physical barrier.

It's a declaration of intent and a talisman for a nation to rally around before it dissolves into globalist mush.

For a nation, drugs and wetbacks are not nearly as destructive as a loss of identity. Why do you think the leftist leaders push ALL forms of immigration (legal and otherwise) so desperately when it creates a black hole for welfare and most of their own base is against it?

The wall says to illegal immigrants "you may still get here, but you know you are not welcome."

The wall says to Americans "we have no intention of replacing you."

It's about the most beneficial use of federal funding I could possibly imagine. To say otherwise would be like claiming the
Statue of Liberty is a waste of metal that could have been used to build a few miles of railroad or a bridge.

I agree.

"The Wall" is by no means an entirely practical device. It is the "anti-statue of liberty"

The statue of liberty welcomed then, legal, immigrants to america in 1886. It re-assured them that they would have religious and economic freedom in a land of new opportunity. Immigrants that saw the statue in the distance as their boat approached ellis island were inspired by it.

The Trump Wall has the reverse design. Illegal immigrants will think twice about crossing, even if the wall isn't impassable. Citizens will see it as a symbol of nationalism and illegal immigrants that pass it by, will hopefully see it as a warning, with Trump as the nation's Ozymandias.

"My name is Trump, King of Kings, look upon my works ye mighty, and despair"

This is in contrast to the nation's latest civic project...the black history museum, which looks like a prison, reminding blacks that the federal government has been their owner since 1868.

[MOVSM]

(09-22-2016 09:13 PM)SirTimothy Wrote:  

Relevant video for those interested.

Fuck CNN. We crisscrossed entire Iraq and Afghan with t-barriers and hesco walls. What's the price on that?
Israelis invented t-barriers for their wall. No excavation of earth is required.
I'm pretty sure we can do it.




1950 miles? No. You don't need to build a wall around a lake or on a sufficiently wide river.

“Peace” Lines: A Selection of Walls Dividing Regions.

I prefer Israeli solution:

[Leonard D Neubache]

^ Say what you want about Israel but the threat they face is real and as such they have their shit wired tight. Australia's wall of water will fare much more poorly if Indonesia ever decides to go Camp Of Saints on us.

[polar]

In the meantime, actual live footage from the Trump Cam:

[Handsome Creepy Eel]

Irenicus, I have to disagree. While of course we need disincentives as well, we need to keep in mind that disincentives are still enforced by only a small number of people - police, some military and some bureaucrats. In situations where you have thousands or even millions swarming into your country, these institutions will get overwhelmed.

For an example, check out this scene from a year ago - a migrant swarm rushing past the overwhelmed Austrian policemen:

Even if those policemen had AK-47s, they would have still been overwhelmed in seconds and the invaders would have gotten through just as easily. With a wall, though? No chance.

Of course Austria will still catch and deport the invaders, but the cost of hunting rogue thousands roaming your country and committing all sorts of crime would be enormous, easily dwarfing the cost of any physical barriers.

Disincentives-only is a solution for 1970s USA/Europe or for extremely isolated countries like Australia. Disincentives + physical barriers is the only lasting solution.

[Gmac]

(09-23-2016 11:54 AM)Irenicus Wrote:  

I have been reading OP's initial post, and I agree with him.


While Trump's wall will certainly lower the illegal (!!) immigration, it will not stop it, in the long run. If people really have a motivation to pass it...sooner or later, they will find a way.

You guys are still missing the point! This isn't about reducing illegal immigration to 0%. It's about drastically reducing illegal immigration from its current state which is out of control. The difference between a county jail and a maximum security prison is pretty fucking huge - that's how you should be thinking about this.

The wall and its emboldened border patrol agents will be intimidating. I don't think some of you understand just how effective physical barriers such as walls actually are in the real world.