[Tapestry]

I've been experiencing this problem for a while, but it's become enough of a glaring pattern to warrant asking for help. The problem is women losing attraction very predictably, usually 1-2 weeks into an interaction. I have no problem opening women, I often get opened myself due to physical attractiveness. I have a serious flaking problem combined with a serious ghosting problem 1-2 weeks into any semi-successful interactions. In the past year I have probably had this happen 30-40 times. But focusing on just the past month alone, after I had made the decision to go exclusively for better looking women, it's becoming a real pain.

- About a month ago met an 8. She asked for my number. Met me the next night for drinks. Made out in her car and she wanted us to make dinner at my place the next day. She specifically told me to text her tomorrow. The next day she went full ghost, haven't heard from or seen her since.

- 1 week ago, met a 27 yr unmarried 7 through a job I was doing. Got her number and set up happy hour thing. She texted to cancel 30 minutes prior with the excuse that she had to travel in 4 days.

- Less than a week ago, met up with a 9 for dinner, drinking. Made out with her multiple times and texted her throughout the week. By this weekend, she's gone full ghost. Lost her somewhere between Tuesday when she was full on making out with me sober and Saturday when she would barely kiss me. Even though she half hearted said we should go to [somewhere specific] soon, I could tell the typical pattern was in place.

- Same timeframe as the last girl, met for happy hour with another 8, went well, no escalation involved though. Continued to text/snap and also by Saturday she had gone full on ghost.

- Today, set up a brunch thing. Girl canceled 1 hour before saying she had just got up and wouldn't make it.

My main questions are: is it typical in this day and age to have a 90% flake/ghost rate on women who have been successfully opened or have even opened you? It seems to me I'm doing something drastically wrong. It's hard for me to translate texting into meetups and exceedingly hard to translate an initial meetup into more meetups. I think I am generating attention on looks alone, am interesting enough initially, but quickly bore women with lack of personality, small talk, texting skills, possibly being too nice and predictable, or "safe." Initial texts are enthusiastic and then start to dwindle where I'm doing all the initiating with fewer and fewer responses. If I didn't continue to reliably open 2-3 women per week I would have no social life with the opposite sex at all. I know it could be worse because some guys have trouble getting this amount of opens on a regular basis. But I can't help but think this amount of disinterest is not the norm. Any advice appreciated.

[roberto]

Best post some of your text interactions mate, you're obviously slipping up somewhere.

[Travesty]

Have a few drinks to loosen up before dates. I am guessing you aren't feeling inside like a crazed Grizzly bear overlooking a stream of salmon when you are sitting next to these girls you haven't banged yet. You should.

If you have a plate girl ask her directly what she thinks of your sex game, making out etc... tell her you want to improve. Maybe in these makeouts there is something that is steering these girls away from going for the bang.

[JuanQuinQuin]

(05-22-2016 03:17 PM)Tapestry Wrote:  

I've been experiencing this problem for a while, but it's become enough of a glaring pattern to warrant asking for help. The problem is women losing attraction very predictably, usually 1-2 weeks into an interaction. I have no problem opening women, I often get opened myself due to physical attractiveness. I have a serious flaking problem combined with a serious ghosting problem 1-2 weeks into any semi-successful interactions. In the past year I have probably had this happen 30-40 times. But focusing on just the past month alone, after I had made the decision to go exclusively for better looking women, it's becoming a real pain.

- About a month ago met an 8. She asked for my number. Met me the next night for drinks. Made out in her car and she wanted us to make dinner at my place the next day. She specifically told me to text her tomorrow. The next day she went full ghost, haven't heard from or seen her since.

- 1 week ago, met a 27 yr unmarried 7 through a job I was doing. Got her number and set up happy hour thing. She texted to cancel 30 minutes prior with the excuse that she had to travel in 4 days.

- Less than a week ago, met up with a 9 for dinner, drinking. Made out with her multiple times and texted her throughout the week. By this weekend, she's gone full ghost. Lost her somewhere between Tuesday when she was full on making out with me sober and Saturday when she would barely kiss me. Even though she half hearted said we should go to [somewhere specific] soon, I could tell the typical pattern was in place.

- Same timeframe as the last girl, met for happy hour with another 8, went well, no escalation involved though. Continued to text/snap and also by Saturday she had gone full on ghost.

- Today, set up a brunch thing. Girl canceled 1 hour before saying she had just got up and wouldn't make it.

My main questions are: is it typical in this day and age to have a 90% flake/ghost rate on women who have been successfully opened or have even opened you? It seems to me I'm doing something drastically wrong. It's hard for me to translate texting into meetups and exceedingly hard to translate an initial meetup into more meetups. I think I am generating attention on looks alone, am interesting enough initially, but quickly bore women with lack of personality, small talk, texting skills, possibly being too nice and predictable, or "safe." Initial texts are enthusiastic and then start to dwindle where I'm doing all the initiating with fewer and fewer responses. If I didn't continue to reliably open 2-3 women per week I would have no social life with the opposite sex at all. I know it could be worse because some guys have trouble getting this amount of opens on a regular basis. But I can't help but think this amount of disinterest is not the norm. Any advice appreciated.

You are not closing. I recently jumped on the dating game and after a couple of girls started ghosting on me, and consulting with the heavy tanks in the forum I found out the issue. Woman nowadays need to be closed, aka fucked, on the first date if not, the possibility of ghosting increases considerably. Take Cake, look for my thread called, WTF ... No second Date.

[Captain Gh]

My guess is that since you're a good looking Dude, and that you have an issue with keeping them interested,is that you need to work on your middle Game aka building Rapport/ Comfort. Without fully knowing your situation, I believe that's your issue since you mentioned that you had trouble translating interaction into dates.

It seems that you're one of those dudes that could be Banging 5-7 without breaking a sweat, but when you go higher in quality, Game becomes mandatory... since the other 8-9 Dudes went through the same thing you're going through, and developed Mad Game! Things could be worse my friend. You just need to put in some work, maybe pick up a Game book, and you're set. All it takes is Knowledge and Hard work to fix up your issues

[Tapestry]

Here are some random text excerpts:

flaker
Me: Wake up, it's dinner time
Her: Haha I woke up about 4:30
Me: Oh no...and tonight is date night too
Her: Haha of course you would remember that. Yes it is. I'm headed there now actually
Me: I hope he's dreamy...
Her: Haha you're terrible
Her: If he's too terrible you may never get your jacket back
Another Day:
Me: I'm going for a drink or two tomorrow
Her: Last I heard, I was invited lol
Me: Yes at [name]. Make sure you dress down lol
Her: Will do. Do you just want me to let you know when I get done with my meeting?
misc. logistics follow
Next day: I really hate to cancel last minute but theres no way I can go [excuse about traveling]
Me: Who's this?
Her: Seriously?
Her: Lol do you have so many girls on a dating rotation you can't keep up?

Another one:
Her: Haha everyone here is nice!
Me: Oh yeah everyone is nice when you're a pretty girl
Her: Haha I wouldnt knoww
Me: Lies, I'm sure all the bros are after you
Her: Lol the bros..
Her: All the bros circulate at the place where you work
Me: I try to avoid them
Her: lol gotcha me too. So is that where you work full time?
2 days later
Me: Hey, wyd
Her: Hey, just leavin work. Gonna go to the gym shortly. Hbu?
Me: I'm trapped at the bar, roads are closed
leads to another flake

ghoster excerpt
Her: I fell asleep! I didn't even know you called! I'm so sorry!
Me: Haha it's ok. I figured something came up.
Her: Hahayea I wasn't feeling very well
Her: Still downtown?
Her: Want to grab some dinner and play some pool?
Her: Sorry it's so late
Me: That sounds great actually
Me: I'm at [place].
Her: OkayI'm going to chance and get ready I'll leave in about 20?
Her: Awesome
Her: I'm on my way
Me: Cooool
Her: Are you still at [place]
Me: Still here
Her: Just got back home. I had fun tonight, sweet dreams
Me: Good night
Her: How are you? Just woke up!
fast foward 3 days
Her: What are you up to?
Me: Hey, just got up... heading to the gym
Her: Nice! sounds like fun!
Me: You want to do something after? Weather sucks again lol
Her: Lol yea it does!
Her: [job related question]
This leads to fewer and fewer texts and ghost two days later

[Chetthebaker]

Yes, pushing harder to close on first dates is big. The problem I run into now is that unless the logistics are straight I won't go on the date.

And with the amount of girls that pull the soft flake - ie not agreeing to meet where I suggest and trying to negotiate the location, or worse change it right before the date- along with regular flaking and all the other bullshit girls pull- I just end up nexting the majority of prospects I generate.
I think it's just part of the game, but there's always things within your game to tweak.

I don't have much in common with Troy Francis and his style, but it's great to read his stuff since he's super aggressive and ballsy.

To paraphrase Roosh - you must push and escalate as far as you possibly can as quickly as you can on every first date, because you will never see her again.

[TornadoByProxy]

Yes ghosting can be that common. It's really the norm now. Don't take it personally.
You're probably coming off too eager when they suggest the next step. Remember it's always a shit test. Don't think you won when they suggest another meetup. They may be testing how you react and you are failing.
You should try to do something other than drinks and dinner too. Not sure how old you are, but every girl has a ton of opportunity to go to dinner for free. You've got to come up with something better to keep their attention.

[Tapestry]

Thanks for for the replies. Captain's analysis is spot on. I can get 5's, 6's, 40 year olds and the like with minimal effort. But I don't want to do that anymore. In fact the only thing in the past year that would qualify as a relationship and not a fling was with a 6 who was cool as shit, but just not there in the looks department. Had to end it.

Another question I have is what is the appropriate amount of texting and what subjects to use for building rapport through texting? I guess I'm from the old school where texting was mainly used for logistics and setting up physical interactions. As you can see I have an easy enough time at first, but by day 2 or 3 I'm running out of stuff to say, reasons to text them. I'm naturally introverted so all this stuff has to be learned. I've made a conscious effort to text more instead of being stubborn and waiting for them to text me but my results have remained about the same. Any advice on the frequency and timing of texting would be appreciated as well.

[LeoneVolpe]

It's easy to overvalue girls in the 8-to-10 range. You're probably just fine swooping them in the beginning because you figure "what do I have to lose?" by trying. Then, once you've gotten a week or two in, you start caring too much about outcome and they're picking up on some sort of needy/clingy vibe. Without knowing you, I can't say for sure this is something you're doing, but it's something to be mindful of.

I'd recommend keeping your text game mostly logistical, especially before getting the bang. Don't just text for the sake of texting. If you MUST text her, have a specific reason for doing so and don't drag it out too long or you'll kill the mystery surrounding yourself. Dates are the proper venue to build rapport/close. Remember, the game is won in the field, not over the phone.

[Tapestry]

"Remember, the game is won in the field, not over the phone."

Ok so now we're really getting somewhere. See, this is what I believed a year ago and my strategy now relies on the theory that almost completely the opposite is true. As the hottest women today were born well into the 90s they literally did not know a time before texting. When I would try strictly logistical plays I would either get ghosting or steered into classic date style interview questions leading to ghosting. Now, I am trying to throw more nonsense and playful bullshit and it seems to work a little better, although clearly the problems of my above posts remain. So which is true? Texting as a means to an end, or does texting determine how the physical "date" is going to go? Seems to me the latter. By the time you actually get her out your textual banter has put her in whatever mood you've created by it. She's already texted her friends about your texts and whatnot and made a decision largely about how the night is going to go since you've been "pre-screened" by the texting process. The physical meetup is like a ribbon cutting ceremony which is just for show as all the hard work has been done by the construction crews and the lawyers. Or is it somewhere in between these two extremes?

[Vaun]

While these numbers seem high, I would caution you to not put too much stock in how much flake you are seeing. Especially if you have ramped up your approaches lately, flakes always happen. But.. a few of your texts looked like you were putting too much on the actual meet up. Like calling it a "date". I would say keep it more casual and take the time to build some rapport over text. Its a double edged sword, but you have to ease off while still finding a way to build rapport. I find being super cool over text, and flaking on them a few times first sets you up for later for gooey pastures. "Logistics Only" to me is unlikely, todays women are not likely to go that route unless you demonstrate such massive social proof and attraction when you first meet, that she has to. Unless she knows anything about you, logistics only can be dicey. Tell her a joke, send a gif, send a pic of you doing something cool like attending a concert. Try everything and experiment. But if you are a good looking dude and too nice, they will see an incongruence. Try acting like a dick.

[LeoneVolpe]

(05-22-2016 05:28 PM)Tapestry Wrote:  

"Remember, the game is won in the field, not over the phone."

Ok so now we're really getting somewhere. See, this is what I believed a year ago and my strategy now relies on the theory that almost completely the opposite is true. As the hottest women today were born well into the 90s they literally did not know a time before texting. When I would try strictly logistical plays I would either get ghosting or steered into classic date style interview questions leading to ghosting. Now, I am trying to throw more nonsense and playful bullshit and it seems to work a little better, although clearly the problems of my above posts remain. So which is true? Texting as a means to an end, or does texting determine how the physical "date" is going to go? Seems to me the latter. By the time you actually get her out your textual banter has put her in whatever mood you've created by it. She's already texted her friends about your texts and whatnot and made a decision largely about how the night is going to go since you've been "pre-screened" by the texting process. The physical meetup is like a ribbon cutting ceremony which is just for show as all the hard work has been done by the construction crews and the lawyers. Or is it somewhere in between these two extremes?

As I said, you'll want to keep your text game mostly logistical. That doesn't mean you can't ever have playful banter with a girl over the phone. If she texts you, I don't see anything wrong with going back and forth with her a little bit but don't drag the conversation on too long. Make an excuse to stop texting her and end on a high-note. A man of value won't have all day to fuck around texting her which she, on some level, has to realize this. Use the fact you're ending the text conversation to set up the logistics of meeting up with her in the near future. (e.g. "OK, well I have to get off here for now but let's grab drinks on Thursday.")

If you make yourself too available to a girl via constant texting, you're taking the teeth out of your bite. You still want her to feel a little bit of that nervous sexual tension when you two are together not complete comfort. Make her too comfortable and you could find yourself in the friend zone, particularly if you haven't already made your sexual intentions clear (either directly or indirectly) which you should always do. Remember, a lot of attraction is built in the time you're not together. Ever hear the phrase, "Absence makes the heart grow fonder"? Well, absence also makes the pussy wetter. It gives her time to think about you, wonder about what you're doing or who you're doing it with. If she always knows what you're up to because you talk all the time, you'll quickly become boring.

It doesn't matter if all girls do anymore is text. That's what her girl friends are for. If you feel the need to text her constantly, you're already buying into her frame which is a loss for you. Make communication work on your terms. If you feel like texting her, text her but I'd recommend only doing so to ask her something specific or to set up logistics. As I've said before, I don't believe in texting a chick just to have conversation. You can't bang her through the phone -- unless you know how to do some cool Terminator 2 T-1000 shit I don't know how to do. Bottom line: Get her out in the real world, in person. That's where you should be focusing on building your rapport because if she likes how things are progressing, that's when you have a real shot at sealing the deal. You just can't do that over the phone.

[Travesty]

Actionable advice: never text about other guys in any capacity. You should be the only dick on her mind. Also don't say she gets treated different because she is pretty, I know it is a joke, a bad one. You already are telling her she is above other people. In fact it would better to neg her that she probably sits home and knits because she doesn't get asked out much because of some cute quirk she has.

You are getting hot girls on first dates so your date game is tripping her up. I think girls especially when out with better looking guys though give them some leeway also expect them to act more confident and be more charismatic from the halo effect. You need to get her laughing and turning towards you and making deep eye contact.

Remember, you need to push her in the frame that you are more social dominant, and she may have some a social faults that are cute, still faults though. She is the nerd, the dork, the bratty the little sister. The one without manners, the one with the weird laugh and so on. Catching a girl's intimate quirks then warmly jabbing her is what she likes. The "who's this?" when she tried to change plans is way overgaming. In fact I think "who's this?" in any capacity isn't good game unless you really honestly don't know who it is.


For girls that ghost prior to date 1:

I agree with Vaun in 2012 when the straight up phone call died because that is the year everyone had a smart phone by, logistics only texting was new and ballsy and to the point. Girls liked it because they were too socially retarded to handle a phone call which came off as too needy to them.

Now in 2016 they all have had the experience of being on social media and dating apps for far too long. They are used to court jesters coming at them all day in text of all forms. Logistics only for them used to be: "this is great, this guy isn't needy and has the balls to ask me out!". Now it has more become: "wow this guy is lazy and uncreative and only wants sex".

Now the best option is 5-10 texts sent back and forth over a few sessions over the course of a few days and up to a few weeks (some hot chicks are extremely busy and you need to wait them out) then make a phone call. It is a lot of fucking work if you don't really want the bang, she still may flake at the 10th text exchange or even after the phone call. I find it is the highest odds of success with the hottest girls. They can afford to be picky so now you need to dance through hoops like a circus bear.

It is almost the same as being on a first date and knowing when is the best time to ask her back to your place. You need to know there is just enough comfort and attraction built without setting off slut defenses or the friend zone drone.

Not being in a hurry to meet (unless she suggests a slam dunk meet - i.e. alone and drinking) while investing just enough time to social proof without getting friend zoned. I would say 90%+ of the time if she tries to change the plans it is best to cancel and say you can't make that, let's get together another time. It is all depends on everything that happened up to that point though.

It's Care Bear Gay Earth man, Care Bear Gay Earth.

Hot girls unless they are hoes on the rebound (I have caught a lot of these chicks at the right time) - the higher quality ones in my experience need a lot more showmanship time upfront because they know they can get it.

[XPQ22]

The post first-date makeout ghost is not at all uncommon. It's something that I found surprising and bizarre when I first got back into game a year ago, but I've come to accept that it's mostly about them, and not about me.

Some of your text game is maybe a little questionable, but I don't think there's anything overwhelmingly devastating to your attractiveness there.

Basically the problem just seems to be that you didn't close with these girls fast enough. The mentality with young women these days with a lot of options is that if a man doesn't bring it to such a level that he can bang her rapidly, he's essentially an unworthy guy, not worth continuing investing in when other options are on the table. 1-2 weeks is an eternity in dating land these days, if you're a good looking guy these girls are going to be wondering why the fuck you aren't pushing harder to bang them and are texting with them instead.

It's been pretty shocking just how rapidly I can get dumped into the "friend zone" by a girl, even ones that aren't particularly good-looking. Girls in their 20s are screening hard and fast - they often have narcissistic attitudes and rapidly dismiss anyone that isn't punching exactly the right buttons.

It can almost be a curse to be too good looking! That "9" must have really liked you to keep chatting over text for almost a week after a date where you didn't get the lay. I'm maybe only slightly above average, and in some sense it makes my life easier that I can pretty much rest assured that if I don't get the lay on the first date I'm never going to hear from her again, and I can safely delete her number and move on.

Some of the others just sound like standard flakes that happen to everyone, not really worth commenting on.

[All or Nothing]

(05-22-2016 04:34 PM)Tapestry Wrote:  

Here are some random text excerpts:

flaker
Me: Wake up, it's dinner time
Her: Haha I woke up about 4:30

Another one:
Her: Haha everyone here is nice!
Me: Oh yeah everyone is nice when you're a pretty girl

ghoster excerpt
Her: I fell asleep! I didn't even know you called! I'm so sorry!
Me: Haha it's ok. I figured something came up.

It seems like you are laser focused on getting the date over everything else.

This makes it seem like all you want to do is get in her pants, which is off-putting.

I would try to do comfort building texts back and forth for a day after you get her number.

THEN, the day after that I would set up the date, so it doesn't seem like all you want is to hook up.

[Phoenix]

Speed and escalation timeline is off.
Next time try only making out once you have her alone at your place.

[Tapestry]

(05-22-2016 10:30 PM)XPQ22 Wrote:  

It can almost be a curse to be too good looking! That "9" must have really liked you to keep chatting over text for almost a week after a date where you didn't get the lay.

That one was brutal, considering she drove me back to my place but refused to come inside. She told me "Next time." But of course, a woman's words are next to meaningless. I escalated in the car and I guess the only thing I could have done at that point was maybe to just keep continue escalating hoping her base desires might take over at some point. But I thought things had gone well enough, lesson learned.

[Robert Plant]

A girl decides within the first half hour if she wants to sleep with you. If you look good and have tight game this will be about a 50/50 proposition. If a girl is only luke warm she will text you back but unless the stars align and all her other social plans fall through and she's in her horny time of month, you won't get the lay. However, if she wants you bad enough she won't flake. I've had several women in the past few months who I strung along for weeks before I had time for a second date. I think the key is to make them feel like they're chasing you.

Women who have been exposed to online dating have checklists and are looking for the guy who checks every box. This means they put in a lot of numbers (in terms of dates) looking for that perfect guy. As a result, if you want to be successful you need to also put in lots of numbers. If you day game however you might be lucky enough to find a woman who does not do online dating. Also, older women overvalue themselves more and are usually way more picky than younger women.

[Dalaran1991]

Excellent advice from Travesty.

The ghosting after making out is, in WIA's words, newbie's mistake: escalation when you can not close.

You should only escalate if you know you can close, and once you do, do everything you can to close there and now because that might well be your only chance.

It might sound desperate but it's mere necessity. Buyer's remorse combined with ADHD = ghosting.

But if you are good looking, play to your advantage and push as much as possible.

[heavy]

I was going to add in my thoughts, but you have some expert advice in a mere 20 posts.

One thing: The process sucks when you don't get the lay, but enjoy it a bit. You're getting some great experience. You learn more from these experiences than when you get the lay.

Good for you for going for 8+s.

[WestIndianArchie]

A lot of good advice, but my take is that you are just dating these girls. There is no game here. I'm not trying to be harsh, but this is a wake-up call.

You have no idea what you're supposed to do, so you don't know what to do. You're getting typical results. This is what happens to most guys. This happened to me, minus the pretty boy aspect.

Even guys here who don't actually understand what game is. To use an old school term it's fast seduction not fast sex.

It's not so much that you're making mistakes. Let go of that. You're not in the right head space.

Trying to boil water by putting it in the freezer.

There are game denialists, but this is game unawareness.

I blame you being a pretty boy and getting easy lays but no real pulls.

Every date I go on is either a bang or a second date. That's not bragging, that's recognizing this simple fact.

If a girl agrees to meet up with you, wild circus sex is on the table.

It's your job to make it happen for her. That not only means making her feel good in a generic way, but hitting different buttons of her personality through words, silence, body language and action.

Her being physically attracted to you is just the resume. The date is the interview.

Most pretty boys don't have much to add by her measurements. That's why older chicks love pretty boys. Just bang her and leave, there's nothing to engage her on an emotional level. That's what she wants.

These younger chicks can get better dick than you all day long. She wants you to fuck her mind. I don't mean build a love connection.

You're really losing these chicks during the first interaction/date, not so much the texting.

The next broad you get out for happy hour, don't talk about the same old bullshit. Even If it's a five minute number pull you want to affect her.

Cold reads with and delving into her thought process and emotions. Predicting how she feels, articulating things that she cannot. That's value.

Creating an atmosphere of us versus them, that's value.

This doesn't have to be all Dr. Phil. There doesn't need to be a story about losing your dog so that she opens up with a tragic story of her own.

Maybe you turn the date into an adventure. Send her to score drinks for the two of you.

You just can't meet these bitches for drinks and talk about work and current events. Much less make out in the Camry and expect anything to really happen.

For a player, you want that meeting to be so eventful that she doesn't want to leave your side. That's value. That kind of value has shit all to do with your face, money, or six pack.

It's supposed to be cinematic. You're snap chatting right now.

WIA

[XPQ22]

^ You should aim to be Jimi Hendrix's rendition of "All Along the Watchtower" in 1968, when all anyone has heard is "Ob-La-Di, Ob-La-Da" and "I Wanna Hold Your Hand."

"Two riders were approaching, and the wind began to howl..."

[egionesco]

This is a goddam great thread in the newbie forum. Thanks, everyone.

[Vaun]

(05-23-2016 01:25 PM)WestIndianArchie Wrote:  

Even guys here who don't actually understand what game is. To use an old school term it's fast seduction not fast sex.

There is fast, and there is deep, which locks the girl to your side. I am shooting for the latter.