[Stringer]

Hi All,

Long time fan/supporter of Roosh here, first time posting. I have had low normal testosterone levels for a few years, and have a lot of typical low testosterone symptoms (low sex drive, constant fatigue and mental fogginess, memory issues, depression/anxiety, trouble putting on weight/muscle). After getting nowhere with many female doctors in improving any of my symptoms, I started pushing for a referral to a men's clinic. After a long wait, I was able to get in to be assessed (Masters Men's Clinic close to Toronto if anyone knows it).

They felt that many of my symptoms could be testosterone related, but they wanted to try a hCG-only treatment to see how I would respond, as they felt that the cause was more likely due to pituitary as opposed to testicle health (I'm 35). They told me that there is far less chance of any side effects, and that there is no risk of this treatment in terms of affecting long term natural testosterone production (if the treatment was stopped).

I am about 3 weeks into taking the injections (.4ml or 400IU x3 a week), and haven't really noticed much improvement in symptoms yet.

Has anyone tried this treatment, and if so how effective was it? Was what I was told true about there being no risk at this dose? I read online that long term high hCG treatment can damage the leydig cells.

My bloodwork numbers (Canadian units):

Testosterone: 11.4 Range 8.4-28.8 nmol/L
Testosterone Free: 202 Range 196-636 pmol/L
Luteinizing Hormone: 2 Range 2-6 IU/L
Prolactin: 5 Range 2-18 ug/L
Estradiol: 90 Range <150 pmol/L
DHEA-S: 10.3 Range <15.0 umol/L

Thanks

[rudebwoy]

Why would you need HGH?

Why didn't you try Test first?

You do know with a vigorous proper exercise rountine you can increase those numbers.

[Stringer]

(04-24-2016 01:09 PM)rudebwoy Wrote:  

Why would you need HGH?

Why didn't you try Test first?

You do know with a vigorous proper exercise rountine you can increase those numbers.

It's hCG, not HGH. hCG mimics LH to raise test naturally.

I hit the gym twice a week, and do at least one other day of either sprints or some kind of sport. It's hard to do more than this with my energy levels and recovery time.

[Requiem]

If they are a professional clinic, they're likely doing this on a very regular basis with many different patients so I'd somewhat trust their judgement here. You're right about hCG having the potential of lowering your testicle sensitivity towards LH. However, form what I've read it depends on the dosage. So if it's a "high" dose for an extended period of time, then it will do the damage. "Low" doses are apparently tolerable, even if applied over a long period of time. Apparently it's best to spread the doses over the week rather than putting everything into one shot. And, I've heard the weekly "harmlessness-limit" is around 1000IU. With your 3x400=1200 you're a little above that so you can ask your doc about it but I can't imagine they'd be doing this recklessly. The tolerable limit is probably just a bit higher than what I've read so you should be OK.

I'm very interested what effect the sole hCG-supplementation will have on you, especially the T-levels, so make sure to k-k-keep us p-posted.

[Stringer]

(04-24-2016 04:00 PM)Requiem Wrote:  

If they are a professional clinic, they're likely doing this on a very regular basis with many different patients so I'd somewhat trust their judgement here. You're right about hCG having the potential of lowering your testicle sensitivity towards LH. However, form what I've read it depends on the dosage. So if it's a "high" dose for an extended period of time, then it will do the damage. "Low" doses are apparently tolerable, even if applied over a long period of time. Apparently it's best to spread the doses over the week rather than putting everything into one shot. And, I've heard the weekly "harmlessness-limit" is around 1000IU. With your 3x400=1200 you're a little above that so you can ask your doc about it but I can't imagine they'd be doing this recklessly. The tolerable limit is probably just a bit higher than what I've read so you should be OK.

I'm very interested what effect the sole hCG-supplementation will have on you, especially the T-levels, so make sure to k-k-keep us p-posted.

Will do, thanks a lot Requiem. I'll have testing done again in early May so I can see where my levels are at then.

[Atheistani]

Hey OP, Do you have any digestive issues? I ask because those symptoms could also be caused by that.

[Stringer]

(04-24-2016 04:32 PM)Atheistani Wrote:  

Hey OP, Do you have any digestive issues? I ask because those symptoms could also be caused by that.

Thanks for the response Atheistani - I do have some stomach issues, though they seem to get a lot better if I avoid certain foods. Dairy and wheat seem to give me problems, as well as dried fruit like dates. I usually avoid these things and I tried taking digestive enzymes (and probiotics) but my symptoms don't seem to get much better.

[Atheistani]

Do you recall if they both started around the same time? Any association with antibiotic use?

You could have intestinal dysbiosis, it happened to me and I also have low test symptoms. I can give you more info depending on your answers to the above.

[Stringer]

(04-25-2016 12:00 PM)Atheistani Wrote:  

Do you recall if they both started around the same time? Any association with antibiotic use?

You could have intestinal dysbiosis, it happened to me and I also have low test symptoms. I can give you more info depending on your answers to the above.

I do find that when my stomach issues are better, my other symptoms are better as well. Dairy and wheat seems to make me feel worse for sure. Is there testing that I can do for that? I don't remember the last time I used antibiotics.
Thanks

[Atheistani]

Not sure if you can do a test. I would Google Intestinal Dysbiosis or Intestinal Candidiasis and take it from there if the symptoms match up.

If this is what you have, the general consensurs is to stay off sugar, take anti fungals, colloidal silver, probiotics, ACV etc depending on severity.

I dont know if this is what it is for you, but it might be worth focusing on fixing the root cause (poor digestion) rather than individual symptoms.

[Stringer]

(04-25-2016 08:17 PM)Atheistani Wrote:  

Not sure if you can do a test. I would Google Intestinal Dysbiosis or Intestinal Candidiasis and take it from there if the symptoms match up.

If this is what you have, the general consensurs is to stay off sugar, take anti fungals, colloidal silver, probiotics, ACV etc depending on severity.

I dont know if this is what it is for you, but it might be worth focusing on fixing the root cause (poor digestion) rather than individual symptoms.

Ok, will do. I know I used to take ACV regularly and felt better at that time. Do you mean avoid natural sugars like fruit/honey as well, or just the stuff in junk food/soft drinks? Would all sugar feed bad bacteria the same?
Thanks

[Atheistani]

I guess avoid the bad ones, not sure about the good ones. If you wanna take fruit etc I think it's best to have it on an empty stomach. A lot of people say to avoid all sugars for a few weeks at the beginning and then slowly phase them in depending on how you feel.

[Fortis]

(04-24-2016 01:09 PM)rudebwoy Wrote:  

Why would you need HGH?

Why didn't you try Test first?

You do know with a vigorous proper exercise routine you can increase those numbers.

Agreed. Testosterone is stable and pretty predictable.

I know nothing about Clomid, HCG or anything like that, but aren't those things we usually use to help our testosterone levels recover after they've been shut down by a test cycle or something?

[Stringer]

(04-26-2016 09:00 PM)Atheistani Wrote:  

I guess avoid the bad ones, not sure about the good ones. If you wanna take fruit etc I think it's best to have it on an empty stomach. A lot of people say to avoid all sugars for a few weeks at the beginning and then slowly phase them in depending on how you feel.

Sounds good, thanks.

[Stringer]

(04-26-2016 09:04 PM)Fortis Wrote:  

(04-24-2016 01:09 PM)rudebwoy Wrote:  

Why would you need HGH?

Why didn't you try Test first?

You do know with a vigorous proper exercise routine you can increase those numbers.

Agreed. Testosterone is stable and pretty predictable.

I know nothing about Clomid, HCG or anything like that, but aren't those things we usually use to help our testosterone levels recover after they've been shut down by a test cycle or something?

Yes, that's normally how HCG is used at a pretty low dose. It seems that it is starting to be used more often as a monotherapy at higher doses though (in certain situations).

[Fortis]

I guess since your doctor sounds like he knows what's up and he thinks you have a pituitary issue you should just go along with it.

I am always surprised by how hesitant doctors are about prescribing testosterone.

[Checkmat]

How much do you pay for HCG in Canada?

[Stringer]

(04-29-2016 09:16 AM)Checkmat Wrote:  

How much do you pay for HCG in Canada?

I missed this back when I posted Checkmat, my bad. I think it was about $250 for 3 vials at 10mL each. That's about a 6 month supply.

[Stringer]

Hey All, I thought I would give an update on this. A little over a week after my last post I had my testosterone levels checked, and they came back as 13.5 nmol/L with a range of 8.4 - 28.8. So my levels came up a small amount, and I was noticing mild improvement to my symptoms. This seemed to persist over the last couple of months, though I haven't been feeling as well the last 2-3 weeks. This could be due to not getting as much exercise and not being as disciplined with sleep.

I had my levels checked last week, and they came back as 9.8 nmol/L, so even lower than what I started with. The funny thing is, I think my symptoms are better now on hCG and lower testosterone levels. My estradiol came back as 84 pmol/L (<150).

I saw my doctor this week, and he wanted to try either Clomid or testosterone injections. He didn't seem interested in a higher dose of hCG, though I didn't ask to be honest. I said that I was interested in trying the Clomid. I've done some reading on it and it seems that it has worked well for a lot of people, though it can spike up estrogen, and there are concerns about long term use. He prescribed 50mg every 3 days. He said that he has just started putting men on Clomid, and uses this kind of "pulsing" dose after another doctor had great success with it.

Any thoughts on this dose or on Clomid in general? I'm actually nervous about stopping with the hCG after I have seen some improvement, but I definitely want to be doing better than I have been.
Thanks