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Gunfight - The Two Way Rifle Range
#1

Gunfight - The Two Way Rifle Range



I have been PMing and e-mailing with a number of ROK men and we have been discussing issues in terms of deploying and preparing for when the rifle range becomes two ways. It is not simply 3 or 4 guys and it is both officers and enlisted. Having thought about this, I considered that there are probably many non-military (or non-law enforcement) men out there who could benefit from some basic principles. I am confident that there are also numerous men on the Forum who have been in the shit storm while in the military or in law enforcement. This is a call to them to share some basic experiences or rules that may be helpful to the men on the Forum in general. It may naturally lead to tactics, but my goal is to keep things simple so that they stick in the minds of members and recalling one or two things just might make the difference between spreading your genes and not.

I was also reflecting on the fact that in 1944 many of the men between the ages of 18-20 were coming off of landing craft and storming beaches in the Pacific or in Europe, whereas in 2014, many of the men ages 18-20 were looking for safe spaces.

Among the major points that I made to the men who were going to be leaders of men, three have application for a larger audience. On the internal side, you must know yourself (strengths and weaknesses). Dishonesty (and no one will know but you and your creator) with yourself can get others (and yourself) killed down the road. Secondly and third is to be technically and tactically proficient. Never stop learning, drilling, practicing, and rehearsing.

Listed below are a few points to consider.


-Have a gun, (bring a knife in addition)

-Have plenty of ammunition.

-When you pick up a weapon (gun) it has one purpose. Use it accordingly.

-Have other men with you.

-Make sure the other men have a gun and plenty of ammunition.

-Things happen fast. A normal engagement is about a 60 seconds plus or minus 30 seconds (which may be followed by another engagement as you maneuver).

-The longer the firefight, the more likely it is that you will die. End it quickly, maintain the initiative.

-Surprise is key (military guys, get recon).

-Keep your head up (when it is down, things appear to come out of nowhere), unless you are getting shelled.

-Do not turn your back on your threat.

-Calm, accurate fire at a distance is paramount (engage with your rifle, not your pistol if possible as it will generally be a fatal error). Many people panic (cerebral fibrillation) the first time out of the gate (especially in close quarters). Take your cues from the experienced veterans (platoon sergeants, company/battalion commanders).

-Breathe (holding your breath is a sign of panic).

-Watch your enemy´s hands, their hands kill.

-If you cannot see your enemy, shoot where you would be (hiding). Part of it is guess work.

-If it is worth shooting once, it is worth shooting twice. Ammunition is cheap, life is expensive.

-As the engagement presses forward things becoming increasing difficult and your stress levels go ballistic (experience helps);

-Tracers work both ways.

-Stay in motion (those moving are 2 times LESS likely to get hit as compared to those standing and not moving).

-Walk your rounds up from the ground to your target as you move toward them.

-Run to maneuver, do not walk (dead men walk).

-Seek Cover (from objects that will stop a round (not a car), do not hug the ground) and know where cover is located. Move away from your attacker at a diagonal or laterally when seeking cover (those shooting from cover are 4 times LESS likely to get hit as compared to those standing without cover).

-If you are not shooting you should be communicating, reloading, or maneuvering.

-Friendly fire is not. Communicate with your team. Tell them where you are and where you are moving.

-Use a radio, call for support (fast movers, gunships, artillery, other men, etc.).

-Have a plan and a back-up plan (plans usually do not survive past the first few seconds after initial contact with the enemy).

-Flank your enemy and protect your flank.

-Drill/practice/rehearse to be proficient, this should never be easy.


-It is not Hollywood, get that shit out of your head. In the end the details will not be remembered, only who lived and who died.

-Sometimes it is luck when you duck or stand and the guy next to you does the opposite and he gets hit.

-After the engagement you will be tired because of the adrenaline. Rest (hydrate, eat) when practical and prepare for the next engagement.


Here are a few related threads on the forum:

thread-23927.html
thread-18830.html
thread-50128.html
thread-53423.html
thread-52245.html
thread-27226.html
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#2

Gunfight - The Two Way Rifle Range

Awesome, 1+

A question though, how much of this would apply if you are a resistance fighter (so no fire support, squad tactics, etc.)?

How much does this change when fighting against guerilla fighters? Snipers are an exception I know.

Also another question: just how much fire discipline can a reasonably trained gunsman maintain during a gun fire in an urban environment? Say your basic rifleman in a Marine platoon after 2 tour of active duty, can he reliably hit a target in low cover (say low wall) with a M16 at 200 meter with semi-fire with one 30-clip?

I've done range shooting but I know it's nothing compared to a real fire fight. My friend who is a platoon commander said that back in Afghan you dont even see who shoots at you, and a lot of killing is simply done by air strike, artillery/mortar.

Ass or cash, nobody rides for free - WestIndiArchie
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#3

Gunfight - The Two Way Rifle Range

Good stuff.

Want to emphasize the 'keep moving' aspect. Sitting in one location, unless in a fortified defensive position, is a sure way to get pinned and flanked.

Also, before you move, know where you're moving to before you go. Each movement under fire should last as long as it takes to say the following:

"I'm up, he sees me, I'm down." About 3 seconds point-to-point.

Full disclosure: I was a non-infantry Marine and have not seen combat. I've only drilled the basic fire team/squad/platoon maneuvers, and am quoting from those lessons.
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#4

Gunfight - The Two Way Rifle Range

Good list but I thought I'd add some quick commentary to this. My authority to speak on these matters? I am an ex-army infantry NCO with multiple tours to Afghanistan where I did experience combat with the Taliban.


Quote: (04-24-2016 12:44 PM)NASA Test Pilot Wrote:  



-Have a gun, (bring a knife in addition)

Have a quality, working rifle that you are proficient with. Have a pistol as a backup that you can transition to if your rifle jams/runs out of ammo during close-in fighting (approximately 5-50 meters) or if for whatever reason your rifle is out of arms reach when surprised by hostile action. Your pistol cannot be your main weapon; it is only for emergencies or something to fight with until you can get to your rifle. Do have a knife. There are several varieties but lean towards a utility knife. If you're reduced to fighting hand to hand with a big fuck-off combat knife, shit has gone disastrously bad and you are close to death unless you escape right now.

Quote:Quote:

-Have plenty of ammunition.

Yes. You need to carry at least bare minimum 500 rounds for your rifle and 100 rounds for your sidearm. You also need a way to carry your ammo and your other necessary gear i.e. a chest rig/tactical vest. Ideally you are fighting as part of a group that has the logistical ability to resupply you from outside the hostile contact location within 30 minutes if need be. Guerrilla forces without that ability tend to withdraw and evade as soon as tactically possible to avoid being destroyed from running out of ammo.

Quote:Quote:

-When you pick up a weapon (gun) it has one purpose. Use it accordingly.

Only point a weapon at something you intend to shoot. Before you shoot quickly scan the target and assess foreground, background, and target itself-- are there obstacles between you and the target that render fire ineffective? What is behind the target-- friendly forces, civilians, dangerous substances, an open area, a brick wall, houses full of people? If you cannot safely take the shot, only do so when your life or teammates lives are in direct danger. The target itself-- is it in range and is my weapon effective against it?

Quote:Quote:

-Have other men with you.

You need a fireteam partner at least. A squad/section is better. A platoon is better than that. The more the merrier.

Quote:Quote:

-Make sure the other men have a gun and plenty of ammunition.

Make sure you have competent men in your organization. If you are the leader/commander it is your responsibility to ensure your men are properly equipped and trained. If they look and act like a bunch of shit birds the fault is yours.

Quote:Quote:

-Things happen fast. A normal engagement is about a 60 seconds plus or minus 30 seconds (which may be followed by another engagement as you maneuver).

Depends. An engagement could be two minutes or it could be 72 hours. It could end up in a series of continuing engagements lasting weeks. It depends on your organization's intent and the intent of the opposition and what force each is willing to commit.

Quote:Quote:

-The longer the firefight, the more likely it is that you will die. End it quickly, maintain the initiative.

You want to conclude a hostile contact asap. If you are the stronger, press forward with momentum and destroy the target. If you are the weaker you need to withdraw and escape-- unless you have the ability to be reinforced or be supported with indirect fire or air support within a timely manner.

Quote:Quote:

-Surprise is key (military guys, get recon).

Surprise is key. You need to be ahead in the information war. The better informed of the size, shape, disposition, morale, and supply of the enemy the better you are in able to attack him. Get recon? Do you mean perform reconnaissance? Yes, you need to perform recon (or recce if you aren't American) to find and observe the enemy and learn his weak spots.

Quote:Quote:

-Keep your head up (when it is down, things appear to come out of nowhere), unless you are getting shelled.

You must continually observe your surroundings. You need constant SA (situational awareness). Easier said than done when in the thick of a fight but constant observation and assessment of the tactical situation is literally life and death. Communication of what is seen by all teammates to each other is also paramount.

Quote:Quote:

-Do not turn your back on your threat.

Sometimes you might have to to move to a better position. But if you have to it can only be under covering fire from your fireteam partner/teammates.

Quote:Quote:

-Calm, accurate fire at a distance is paramount (engage with your rifle, not your pistol if possible as it will generally be a fatal error). Many people panic (cerebral fibrillation) the first time out of the gate (especially in close quarters). Take your cues from the experienced veterans (platoon sergeants, company/battalion commanders).

Calmness is key. You will be under stress in a combat situation. You will. You have to accept that and focus on the job at hand. Listen to the word of command from your superior commanders and ensure you pass on your orders to your subordinates in a calm manner with easy to understand instructions.

Quote:Quote:

-Breathe (holding your breath is a sign of panic).

Take long, slow, deep breaths from your chest when you find the stress getting to you. It will calm you down mentally and it will sort you out physiologically speaking. Wearing combat gear and holding your breath will cramp you up, slow you down, and maybe even make you pass out.

Quote:Quote:

-Watch your enemy´s hands, their hands kill.

Not really. You probably won't see the enemy, period. If you do from a distance you may not see his hands. If you are close quarters and he is there in front of you you don't need to be looking at his hands; you need to be pumping rounds into his center of mass until he collapses and is no longer a threat.

Quote:Quote:

-If you cannot see your enemy, shoot where you would be (hiding). Part of it is guess work.

Yes, but you need to be smart about it. Don't shoot off copious amounts at random locations. You need to locate the enemy if you don't yet have a positive visual ID. You have to. Use speculative fire (a few random shots to likely locations) to flush them out or get them to return fire. Or use a team member as bait. Ruthless, but we're all expendable. Once located the enemy needs to be assaulted and destroyed at once.

Quote:Quote:

-If it is worth shooting once, it is worth shooting twice. Ammunition is cheap, life is expensive.

Yes, but within reason. Don't go blatting off rounds like a panicking, undisciplined dickhead. Shoot accurate, targeted shots until the target is destroyed. It is better to shoot more rather than less, generally speaking. But if you value your life and the lives of your team, you'll use fire discipline so you don't run out mid-firefight in an extended contact. Only go severely high rate of fire if you are caught in an ambush or the Chinese human wave attack is coming up the hill and about to hit your trenchline.

Quote:Quote:

-As the engagement presses forward things becoming increasing difficult and your stress levels go ballistic (experience helps);

Yes. Remember to breathe and to keep situational awareness.

Quote:Quote:

-Tracers work both ways.

Yes. Be mindful of support weapons (machine guns, rockets) with increased signatures (tracer fire, muzzle blast, excess smoke). Have more than one tactical position to site them in so you can move them for their safety-- the enemy is looking to kill those first, as should you be looking to take out the enemy's support weapons. Machine gun or rocket teams, armored vehicles, machine gun bunkers-- you'd better believe you want to kill those things ASAP as soon as you discover them.

Quote:Quote:

-Stay in motion (those moving are 2 times LESS likely to get hit as compared to those standing and not moving).

If you are out of cover you should be either moving towards it or assaulting a position.

Quote:Quote:

-Walk your rounds up from the ground to your target as you move toward them.

Shoot at the center of mass. You calibrated your scope/sights, right? If you miss and are at distance, observe your splash-- the kick up of debris the bullet makes as it impacts something solid-- and adjust accordingly. If you are close quarters (5 - 25 meters) you really shouldn't be missing a man sized target at that range. At close quarters of 50-100 meters you should be shooting at least three shots at a clear target. The walk on or trailing method will work for that.

Quote:Quote:

-Run to maneuver, do not walk (dead men walk).

Kind of. Under hostile contact in an open space you need to dash 3-5 steps to your next position then get down and adopt a fire position. Always with the support of at least one more rifleman covering you ("one foot on the ground"). When you are good to go you then provide support fire so the guy(s) you just covered you can move themselves. In close quarters/house to house fighting running is a good way to die fast. Or as they say in Urban Operations "slow is smooth, smooth is fast." Move with a sense of urgency, but in a smooth, controlled manner.

Quote:Quote:

-Seek Cover (from objects that will stop a round (not a car), do not hug the ground) and know where cover is located. Move away from your attacker at a diagonal or laterally when seeking cover (those shooting from cover are 4 times LESS likely to get hit as compared to those standing without cover).

There's cover-- having something to hide behind that will stop small arms, and preferably explosives, and larger caliber weapons. There's also concealment-- having something to hide behind that hides you from view but doesn't have much, if any, protection. You want cover unless you're on the move.

Quote:Quote:

-If you are not shooting you should be communicating, reloading, or maneuvering.

If you're not shooting you should be observing your areas of responsibility and communicating if you have something to report. If you need to move you do it with fire support ("one foot on the ground"). If you need to reload, you need to be quick about it, and with the one foot on the ground thing working for you. Reloading in a fight while not under cover and without fire support is a good way to sit out the rest of the fight because you got shot.

Quote:Quote:

-Friendly fire is not. Communicate with your team. Tell them where you are and where you are moving.

Communication is vital. The team needs to communicate with each other and the team leader needs tactical feedback and then to clearly express his commands.

Quote:Quote:

-Use a radio, call for support (fast movers, gunships, artillery, other men, etc.).

If you have those resources available. Use them. You want every advantage you can get.

Quote:Quote:

-Have a plan and a back-up plan (plans usually do not survive past the first few seconds after initial contact with the enemy).

You cannot go into a situation without some preparation. You cannot improvise. You must have at least a general idea of what you intend to do and how you're going to do it. Things will change on the ground, often drastically, but that doesn't render your preparation useless. It gives you a baseline to work from where you can then intelligently improvise. The seven Pees of the British Army: "Proper Planning and Preparation Prevents Piss Poor Performance."

Quote:Quote:

-Flank your enemy and protect your flank.

Battle is won by closing with and destroying the enemy. You have to get on the turf they hold and kick them off it. Frontal assaults are costly. Go for the flanks where possible. However, your enemy is (usually) not stupid. They know that's what you'd like to do. Keep that in mind.

Quote:Quote:

-Drill/practice/rehearse to be proficient, this should never be easy.

You need to practice your skills. And just like team sports, you need to practice tactics with your team. Also like team sports there are several ways to do this. Realistic conditions are best, but individual and team drills are very helpful.

Quote:Quote:

-It is not Hollywood, get that shit out of your head. In the end the details will not be remembered, only who lived and who died.

Hollywood is shit. You know this. The details are often remembered, though. Military history accounts can be a goldmine of tactical and strategic insight. Read some.

Quote:Quote:

-Sometimes it is luck when you duck or stand and the guy next to you does the opposite and he gets hit.

3000% true. You can get everything right and still get hit or do everything wrong and come out unscathed. Time and chance happenth to us all.

Quote:Quote:

-After the engagement you will be tired because of the adrenaline. Rest (hydrate, eat) when practical and prepare for the next engagement.

Right after the engagement you will not have time to do anything except prepare for the enemy counter-attack or for your next move forward. You need to consolidate your team-- take care of casualites, assign responsibilities to your troops, take a quick count and redistribution of your ammo, link up with friendly forces, adopt a (preferably temporary) defensive posture-- which might include digging impromptu trenches. Once the consolidation is complete you carry on with the next phase of your orders. You should drink water whenever possible and you should also be prepared to eat cold food on the move or if static eating while your team cover you. Pissing and shitting are for whenever you can manage and also while being covered.
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#5

Gunfight - The Two Way Rifle Range

Quote: (04-25-2016 07:32 AM)Dalaran1991 Wrote:  

Awesome, 1+

A question though, how much of this would apply if you are a resistance fighter (so no fire support, squad tactics, etc.)?

How much does this change when fighting against guerilla fighters? Snipers are an exception I know.

Also another question: just how much fire discipline can a reasonably trained gunsman maintain during a gun fire in an urban environment? Say your basic rifleman in a Marine platoon after 2 tour of active duty, can he reliably hit a target in low cover (say low wall) with a M16 at 200 meter with semi-fire with one 30-clip?

I've done range shooting but I know it's nothing compared to a real fire fight. My friend who is a platoon commander said that back in Afghan you dont even see who shoots at you, and a lot of killing is simply done by air strike, artillery/mortar.

As a resistance/guerilla fighter you have to weigh what you have, what you're up against, where you want to conduct operations, and what you have to gain versus what you may lose. There's a reason why the Viet Minh/Viet Cong were very hard to pin down and fight in large-scale engagements. They knew they didn't have the firepower and logistics to stand against a western country's military. So they used a passive-aggressive strategy to bleed their Japanese, French, and American opponents gradually over a long period of time until his will to win faltered. They carefully choose where and when they would fight. Of course they had Soviet and Chinese support but that's part two of insurgencies-- having an outside safe haven/support network. Insurgencies do need them.

Fighting for/against guerillas in the tactical sense? It's all infantry combat. And good infantry tactics will work in any infantry organization if the troops are well led, physically fit, and have enough morale/will to fight on.

Are you asking about fire discipline or accuracy? I'd say probably, your basic rifleman will probably hit a target in low cover at 200 meters within ten rounds (of a 30 round magazine, not a "clip"). That's not hard to do. It also shouldn't take a Marine two tours of duty to acquire such a basic level of marksmanship. Also, a rifleman is rarely by himself so the rest of his team would also be shooting at the target, and also at least one machine gun too, so that target at 200 meters is fucked, if it's by itself, quite frankly.

In Afghanistan senior NATO commanders were reluctant to allow ground combat. They (especially European officers) wanted the safest route that produce the least amount of friendly casualties so as not to give their governments a hard time politically back home. From 2001-2008 the Taliban were stronger and NATO was more willing to engage in ground combat. From 2009 on it preferred drones and airstrikes.
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#6

Gunfight - The Two Way Rifle Range

A point to remember is that you fall back to the base level of your training, you do not rise to the occassion.
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#7

Gunfight - The Two Way Rifle Range

I've done a fair bit of shooting but never with rounds coming back in the other direction. Even hunting at night makes you realise that bench rest and pistol bay shooting are designed specifically to cut out all of the factors in the field that screw you over, so dumping a bunch of adrenalin on top of shitty lighting, wind speed, obstacles and impediments, shooting upwards/downwards, moving targets, being cold, hungry, scared etc makes you understand that accurate shooting under duress is incredibly difficult.

While I hesitate to bring it up, I first tried paintball as a young man of reasonable fitness in my early twenties. My takeaways from that experience were these.
I got shot in the first match in the first fifteen seconds (within 2 seconds of "engaging the enemy"). Adrenalin and a lack of proper mental conditioning are a recipe for disaster that IRL would have gotten me killed.
Tunnel vision is a real thing. I often walked past people within their field of vision who ought to have seen me easily but were concentrating on something else.
If the other guy has lots of money and therefore lots of ammunition and a fancy gun that sprays death in your direction, and you don't have these things, then you will want to adapt your plans accordingly (read: resistance fighter vs state funded soldier).
Movement seemed to invariably win the day. Nearly everyone who turned up had a sniper mentality (video game sniper mentality). The ones who performed best on the day were the ones who dropped that idea and learned to suppress and flank the enemy.

Most importantly, while I was hyped but exhausted at the end of the day, by the time I woke up in the morning I was so stiff I could barely move.

I recognise that paintball is a poor substitute for professional military training but for the average schmuck it's about as realistic as it gets, and it certainly does a good job of pimp-slapping some of the stupidity out of you (not pleasant being hit by those high speed paint balls).

The public will judge a man by what he lifts, but those close to him will judge him by what he carries.
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#8

Gunfight - The Two Way Rifle Range

Experience - Infantry Officer, Army

Great points. All military doctrine. One thing I failed to see is gaining and maintaining fire superiority.
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#9

Gunfight - The Two Way Rifle Range

Don't use paintball. Use Airsoft. A good team will teach you an enormous amount about moving around a war zone and it's a hell of a lot of fun.
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#10

Gunfight - The Two Way Rifle Range

Quote: (04-27-2016 01:57 PM)Easy_C Wrote:  

Don't use paintball. Use Airsoft. A good team will teach you an enormous amount about moving around a war zone and it's a hell of a lot of fun.

Care to elaborate more on this, please?

G
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#11

Gunfight - The Two Way Rifle Range

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airsoft

Basically like paintball. The difference is that the weapons are much more realistic than paintballs due to the nature of the projectile. They've got better range, better accuracy, and work in more types of weapons. As a result the game tends to attract people who want a more authentic "battle" experience. Whereas paintball is dominated by close range "speedball" fights, most airsoft games will take place in wide open wooded areas with room to manuever. It's also common for games to take place on large, privately owned tracts of land with highly organized teams engaged in "games" that will last 24 or 48 hours straight.




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#12

Gunfight - The Two Way Rifle Range

My initial goal on this thread was to put out a few items to help men in general, especially if they were non-military and I am glad Marmite made the point about falling back to the base level of your training. I think that those with interest and experience should continue to add details as they see fit, whether it is to help men in general or those serving currently. If one tip saves one life, it is a good thing. Those men wanting to know more should also ask. This can easily get very detailed should we desire to discuss tactics (to include differences in mountainous, hilly, jungle, swamp, woodland, desert, urban, artic and plains types of terrains), or move to strategy, logistics, asymmetry and combined arms. This could also develop into a combat arms or Total Warfare and Military History thread. For me it would be an extension of element five of the Geo-political thread and the application of military power.

In general, my ground-air background and training spans a full career after the Academy that has included multiple combat deployments both on the ground and in the air to include pre-MARSOC (DR, DA, SA) activities. I can discuss MAGTF and Special Purpose MAGTF from the level of the MEU and MEB as well as being able to comment on the MEF should this become more of a warfare thread.
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#13

Gunfight - The Two Way Rifle Range

I know little about infantry tactics but a big thing I learned in the Navy was controlling battlespace.

The larger the better. It's knowing where everything is in an area you decide. Open ocean is best. Once you get land involved your battlespace shrinks and you gotta adapt.

Aloha!
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#14

Gunfight - The Two Way Rifle Range

Assuming this is anything more than a pissing match with a pirate, some thought must be given to intelligence, known and required.

What does the enemy have in the way of:

Training
Numbers of personnel
Weaponry
Resources
Popular support of local civilian populations
Tactics
Desired outcomes of conflict

What do you already know? What are your intelligence requirements - what do you want to task foot patrols to find out/conduct open source research on (assuming we are talking about situations where you can't ask the OGDs to provide more info)?

Knowing who you are fighting, how they are likely to operate, and what they can bring to bear against you is a critical part of success in combat. Experience can't be bought, but armour, air support and long range reconnaissance all can be.
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#15

Gunfight - The Two Way Rifle Range

Logistics logistics logistics.
Communication.
It applies everywhere.

Have a route in and multiple routes out.
I'm not writing much since I'm on my phone, but any operation whether big or small relies on a constant source of supply chain.

Someone mentioned ammo...
Always carry more than you need and accept the added weight.
As a leader, you should always go for the push and not be pulled.
When I say this, I mean that you should always be providing the best equipment and resources to your men before they even realize they need it.
From an senior enlisted and officer standpoint, you should put a lot of time into having accurate counts of your resources and always looking for more.

Your soldiers don't always know they are running out of supplies. You should constantly replenish them to the point that they think it's magic.


The worst times I've ever had at a lower level, were the time when I had to wait for resources or begin a mission and realize I don't have what I need.
Someone will always make a grunt claim and says, do more with less or suck it up and accept that you don't have proper resources... But I think that's an excuse for incompetence.
Worse thing that can happen is you run out of something like bullets or water.

Armies die when their supply chains are incompetent.
It's very hard to pull a maneuver where you rely solely on scavenging.

Location.
Always have a place mapped out or planned ahead of time to rest.
It's simple. You don't wanna be out in the open out easily ambushed.

I feel like most people glorify the ground and fighting aspect of things, but don't always understated the sheer amount of work that is put in behind the scenes to make things run smoothly.
I work primarily line ground logistics.
Combined and joint arms.

I am the cock carousel
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#16

Gunfight - The Two Way Rifle Range

Quote: (04-28-2016 05:56 PM)Sourcecode Wrote:  

Logistics logistics logistics.
Communication.
It applies everywhere.

"Amateurs think tactics, professionals think logistics." Forgot who said that.
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