[Zona]

(09-15-2017 09:02 AM)ScrapperTL Wrote:  

(09-15-2017 06:27 AM)Hypno Wrote:  

So you would use Toremifene instead of Clomid?

Clomid is working for me but its counteracted by higher SBHG and Estradiol. Does Toremefine overcome these drawbacks? Do you take it by itself?

Estradiol is not the demon people think it is, when you have a SERM in your system.
a SERM is a benign Estrogen that occupys the Estrogen Receptor, not allowing Estradiol to make home there.
Therefore, while a SERM is in your system Estradiol is having no physiological effect on you.
Mentally, you may "feel" very estrogenic, as Clomid is commonly known to cause a psychological feminine like state in some males.

If abnormally high levels of SHBG is your problem, you will want to play around with small doses of Exemestane (Aromasin) every other day.
Exemestane will safely lower your SHBG levels without crashing your Estrogen so low that you feel like death as long as you keep the dosage low.
My recommendation for people with naturally high SHBG is 6mg of Exemestane (Aromasin) EOD (every other day).
Exemestane is a Suicide Inhibitor of Estrogen not an Aromatase Inhibitor. The SI family is great for Lowering SHBG and not destroying Estrogen, SI's keep them "in check."

Aromatase Inhibitor like Letrozole and Arimidex absolutely crush Estrogen.
Some men are lucky and can handle Arimidex.
Though a majority of men do not have the mental fortitude to handle long cycles of Letrozole.
Past 14 days Letrozole makes me literally feel like I am dying.

The future of male endocrine enhancement and optimization is a mandatory daily dose of SERM for healthy functioning testicles (Toremifene 15mg a day off cycle, 60mg a day on cycle)
Optional: Exemestane if SHBG levels are too high (6mg every other day)
Optional: Raloxifene if you naturally hold fat deposits in your Chest area (whether it is Gynecomastia or just shitty genetics)

If you can afford it Toremifene + Raloxifene daily would be ideal.
The reason is that Toremifene is great at positively effecting Bone Mineral Density.
Enough to prevent bone loss from normal aging.
Raloxifene is even better than Toremifene at supporting our Skeletal structure, strengthening bones similar to Human Growth Hormone.

With these two compounds (Toremifene and Raloxifene) you have erased the need for costly HCG or HGH completely and no longer have to deal with daily IM or SubQ Injections.

Very interesting stuff, Scrapper.

I know you kind of addressed this, but I just want to clarify to make sure I understand...the main drawback I see with using Toremifene as part of a daily protocol is the fact that it raises SHBG, correct?

Since SHBG binds with testosterone, thus lowering our available free T, wouldn't any test boost we get from Toremifene be potentially rendered ineffectual in the long run? It seems like a guy would definitely have to take something like Aromasin to keep SHBG in check.

I know everyone's biology is a little different, but I'm just trying to understand this in a general sense.

[ScrapperTL]

(09-16-2017 11:59 AM)Zona Wrote:  

(09-15-2017 09:02 AM)ScrapperTL Wrote:  

(09-15-2017 06:27 AM)Hypno Wrote:  

So you would use Toremifene instead of Clomid?

Clomid is working for me but its counteracted by higher SBHG and Estradiol. Does Toremefine overcome these drawbacks? Do you take it by itself?

Estradiol is not the demon people think it is, when you have a SERM in your system.
a SERM is a benign Estrogen that occupys the Estrogen Receptor, not allowing Estradiol to make home there.
Therefore, while a SERM is in your system Estradiol is having no physiological effect on you.
Mentally, you may "feel" very estrogenic, as Clomid is commonly known to cause a psychological feminine like state in some males.

If abnormally high levels of SHBG is your problem, you will want to play around with small doses of Exemestane (Aromasin) every other day.
Exemestane will safely lower your SHBG levels without crashing your Estrogen so low that you feel like death as long as you keep the dosage low.
My recommendation for people with naturally high SHBG is 6mg of Exemestane (Aromasin) EOD (every other day).
Exemestane is a Suicide Inhibitor of Estrogen not an Aromatase Inhibitor. The SI family is great for Lowering SHBG and not destroying Estrogen, SI's keep them "in check."

Aromatase Inhibitor like Letrozole and Arimidex absolutely crush Estrogen.
Some men are lucky and can handle Arimidex.
Though a majority of men do not have the mental fortitude to handle long cycles of Letrozole.
Past 14 days Letrozole makes me literally feel like I am dying.

The future of male endocrine enhancement and optimization is a mandatory daily dose of SERM for healthy functioning testicles (Toremifene 15mg a day off cycle, 60mg a day on cycle)
Optional: Exemestane if SHBG levels are too high (6mg every other day)
Optional: Raloxifene if you naturally hold fat deposits in your Chest area (whether it is Gynecomastia or just shitty genetics)

If you can afford it Toremifene + Raloxifene daily would be ideal.
The reason is that Toremifene is great at positively effecting Bone Mineral Density.
Enough to prevent bone loss from normal aging.
Raloxifene is even better than Toremifene at supporting our Skeletal structure, strengthening bones similar to Human Growth Hormone.

With these two compounds (Toremifene and Raloxifene) you have erased the need for costly HCG or HGH completely and no longer have to deal with daily IM or SubQ Injections.

Very interesting stuff, Scrapper.

I know you kind of addressed this, but I just want to clarify to make sure I understand...the main drawback I see with using Toremifene as part of a daily protocol is the fact that it raises SHBG, correct?

Since SHBG binds with testosterone, thus lowering our available free T, wouldn't any test boost we get from Toremifene be potentially rendered ineffectual in the long run? It seems like a guy would definitely have to take something like Aromasin to keep SHBG in check.

I know everyone's biology is a little different, but I'm just trying to understand this in a general sense.

Toremifene does not raise SHBG, I only suggested low dose Aromasin to Hypno because he has a rare case of High SHBG levels.
Proviron also drastically lowers SHBG, the main drawback here is that it is incredibly difficult to source in comparison with Aromasin.
Toremifene has only 1 known side effect, it blunts Oxytocin levels with prolonged and heavy use.

For some, this may be a benefit and not a negative.
Oxytocin is the pair bonding hormone or what is commonly referred to as the "love hormone."
Benefits: Low levels of Oxytocin make it almost impossible to develop Oneitis and will instantly put you in IDGAF Mode.
Negative: Difficulty pair bonding with Children or Animals.
Basically, you can somewhat simulate the "Sociopathic" mindset by artificially driving down your Oxytocin levels with Toremifene.

The reason I am not concerned by this side effect is because all you have to do is back off on the dose and your back to normal.

[Zona]

(09-16-2017 04:05 PM)ScrapperTL Wrote:  

(09-16-2017 11:59 AM)Zona Wrote:  

(09-15-2017 09:02 AM)ScrapperTL Wrote:  

(09-15-2017 06:27 AM)Hypno Wrote:  

So you would use Toremifene instead of Clomid?

Clomid is working for me but its counteracted by higher SBHG and Estradiol. Does Toremefine overcome these drawbacks? Do you take it by itself?

Estradiol is not the demon people think it is, when you have a SERM in your system.
a SERM is a benign Estrogen that occupys the Estrogen Receptor, not allowing Estradiol to make home there.
Therefore, while a SERM is in your system Estradiol is having no physiological effect on you.
Mentally, you may "feel" very estrogenic, as Clomid is commonly known to cause a psychological feminine like state in some males.

If abnormally high levels of SHBG is your problem, you will want to play around with small doses of Exemestane (Aromasin) every other day.
Exemestane will safely lower your SHBG levels without crashing your Estrogen so low that you feel like death as long as you keep the dosage low.
My recommendation for people with naturally high SHBG is 6mg of Exemestane (Aromasin) EOD (every other day).
Exemestane is a Suicide Inhibitor of Estrogen not an Aromatase Inhibitor. The SI family is great for Lowering SHBG and not destroying Estrogen, SI's keep them "in check."

Aromatase Inhibitor like Letrozole and Arimidex absolutely crush Estrogen.
Some men are lucky and can handle Arimidex.
Though a majority of men do not have the mental fortitude to handle long cycles of Letrozole.
Past 14 days Letrozole makes me literally feel like I am dying.

The future of male endocrine enhancement and optimization is a mandatory daily dose of SERM for healthy functioning testicles (Toremifene 15mg a day off cycle, 60mg a day on cycle)
Optional: Exemestane if SHBG levels are too high (6mg every other day)
Optional: Raloxifene if you naturally hold fat deposits in your Chest area (whether it is Gynecomastia or just shitty genetics)

If you can afford it Toremifene + Raloxifene daily would be ideal.
The reason is that Toremifene is great at positively effecting Bone Mineral Density.
Enough to prevent bone loss from normal aging.
Raloxifene is even better than Toremifene at supporting our Skeletal structure, strengthening bones similar to Human Growth Hormone.

With these two compounds (Toremifene and Raloxifene) you have erased the need for costly HCG or HGH completely and no longer have to deal with daily IM or SubQ Injections.

Very interesting stuff, Scrapper.

I know you kind of addressed this, but I just want to clarify to make sure I understand...the main drawback I see with using Toremifene as part of a daily protocol is the fact that it raises SHBG, correct?

Since SHBG binds with testosterone, thus lowering our available free T, wouldn't any test boost we get from Toremifene be potentially rendered ineffectual in the long run? It seems like a guy would definitely have to take something like Aromasin to keep SHBG in check.

I know everyone's biology is a little different, but I'm just trying to understand this in a general sense.

Toremifene does not raise SHBG, I only suggested low dose Aromasin to Hypno because he has a rare case of High SHBG levels.
Proviron also drastically lowers SHBG, the main drawback here is that it is incredibly difficult to source in comparison with Aromasin.
Toremifene has only 1 known side effect, it blunts Oxytocin levels with prolonged and heavy use.

For some, this may be a benefit and not a negative.
Oxytocin is the pair bonding hormone or what is commonly referred to as the "love hormone."
Benefits: Low levels of Oxytocin make it almost impossible to develop Oneitis and will instantly put you in IDGAF Mode.
Negative: Difficulty pair bonding with Children or Animals.
Basically, you can somewhat simulate the "Sociopathic" mindset by artificially driving down your Oxytocin levels with Toremifene.

The reason I am not concerned by this side effect is because all you have to do is back off on the dose and your back to normal.

Hmmm, I've read the opposite...that toremifene increases SHBG. Guess that's why I'm a bit confused on this.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17412336

Quote:

RESULTS:
Toremifene administration resulted in a significant increase in FSH, testosterone, SHBG, and inhibin B levels, as well as in sperm concentration, percentage motility and normal sperm forms. Twenty-two men's partners achieved pregnancy within 2 months of the end of treatment. At the end of the third month, serum FSH levels were significantly higher in the men whose partners did not achieve pregnancy, and total sperm count and normal sperm forms were significantly lower compared with the group of men whose partners achieved pregnancy.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9685060

Quote:

RESULTS:
The drug sensitized the pituitary to the action of the gonadotrophins; the LHRH-induced FSH and LH release showed a considerably increasing tendency during the toremifene therapy. Estradiol levels decreased statistically significantly and SHBG levels showed a statistically significant increase. A decreased level of prolactin is the sign of an antiestrogenic effect of toremifene on the hypophysis and, as a result, provides evidence for a direct influence of toremifene upon the pituitary. An increase in LH and prolactin release in response to the LHRH test was characteristic in the responders.

In any case, it seems very promising and I'm definitely interested in seeing how your experience with it plays out. Also good to know about the oxytocin aspect. I probably wouldn't be too concerned with that, especially if you can tweak it by adjusting dosage or just sticking to a lower dose.

[ScrapperTL]

(09-16-2017 07:07 PM)Zona Wrote:  

(09-16-2017 04:05 PM)ScrapperTL Wrote:  

(09-16-2017 11:59 AM)Zona Wrote:  

(09-15-2017 09:02 AM)ScrapperTL Wrote:  

(09-15-2017 06:27 AM)Hypno Wrote:  

So you would use Toremifene instead of Clomid?

Clomid is working for me but its counteracted by higher SBHG and Estradiol. Does Toremefine overcome these drawbacks? Do you take it by itself?

Estradiol is not the demon people think it is, when you have a SERM in your system.
a SERM is a benign Estrogen that occupys the Estrogen Receptor, not allowing Estradiol to make home there.
Therefore, while a SERM is in your system Estradiol is having no physiological effect on you.
Mentally, you may "feel" very estrogenic, as Clomid is commonly known to cause a psychological feminine like state in some males.

If abnormally high levels of SHBG is your problem, you will want to play around with small doses of Exemestane (Aromasin) every other day.
Exemestane will safely lower your SHBG levels without crashing your Estrogen so low that you feel like death as long as you keep the dosage low.
My recommendation for people with naturally high SHBG is 6mg of Exemestane (Aromasin) EOD (every other day).
Exemestane is a Suicide Inhibitor of Estrogen not an Aromatase Inhibitor. The SI family is great for Lowering SHBG and not destroying Estrogen, SI's keep them "in check."

Aromatase Inhibitor like Letrozole and Arimidex absolutely crush Estrogen.
Some men are lucky and can handle Arimidex.
Though a majority of men do not have the mental fortitude to handle long cycles of Letrozole.
Past 14 days Letrozole makes me literally feel like I am dying.

The future of male endocrine enhancement and optimization is a mandatory daily dose of SERM for healthy functioning testicles (Toremifene 15mg a day off cycle, 60mg a day on cycle)
Optional: Exemestane if SHBG levels are too high (6mg every other day)
Optional: Raloxifene if you naturally hold fat deposits in your Chest area (whether it is Gynecomastia or just shitty genetics)

If you can afford it Toremifene + Raloxifene daily would be ideal.
The reason is that Toremifene is great at positively effecting Bone Mineral Density.
Enough to prevent bone loss from normal aging.
Raloxifene is even better than Toremifene at supporting our Skeletal structure, strengthening bones similar to Human Growth Hormone.

With these two compounds (Toremifene and Raloxifene) you have erased the need for costly HCG or HGH completely and no longer have to deal with daily IM or SubQ Injections.

Very interesting stuff, Scrapper.

I know you kind of addressed this, but I just want to clarify to make sure I understand...the main drawback I see with using Toremifene as part of a daily protocol is the fact that it raises SHBG, correct?

Since SHBG binds with testosterone, thus lowering our available free T, wouldn't any test boost we get from Toremifene be potentially rendered ineffectual in the long run? It seems like a guy would definitely have to take something like Aromasin to keep SHBG in check.

I know everyone's biology is a little different, but I'm just trying to understand this in a general sense.

Toremifene does not raise SHBG, I only suggested low dose Aromasin to Hypno because he has a rare case of High SHBG levels.
Proviron also drastically lowers SHBG, the main drawback here is that it is incredibly difficult to source in comparison with Aromasin.
Toremifene has only 1 known side effect, it blunts Oxytocin levels with prolonged and heavy use.

For some, this may be a benefit and not a negative.
Oxytocin is the pair bonding hormone or what is commonly referred to as the "love hormone."
Benefits: Low levels of Oxytocin make it almost impossible to develop Oneitis and will instantly put you in IDGAF Mode.
Negative: Difficulty pair bonding with Children or Animals.
Basically, you can somewhat simulate the "Sociopathic" mindset by artificially driving down your Oxytocin levels with Toremifene.

The reason I am not concerned by this side effect is because all you have to do is back off on the dose and your back to normal.

Hmmm, I've read the opposite...that toremifene increases SHBG. Guess that's why I'm a bit confused on this.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17412336

Quote:

RESULTS:
Toremifene administration resulted in a significant increase in FSH, testosterone, SHBG, and inhibin B levels, as well as in sperm concentration, percentage motility and normal sperm forms. Twenty-two men's partners achieved pregnancy within 2 months of the end of treatment. At the end of the third month, serum FSH levels were significantly higher in the men whose partners did not achieve pregnancy, and total sperm count and normal sperm forms were significantly lower compared with the group of men whose partners achieved pregnancy.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9685060

Quote:

RESULTS:
The drug sensitized the pituitary to the action of the gonadotrophins; the LHRH-induced FSH and LH release showed a considerably increasing tendency during the toremifene therapy. Estradiol levels decreased statistically significantly and SHBG levels showed a statistically significant increase. A decreased level of prolactin is the sign of an antiestrogenic effect of toremifene on the hypophysis and, as a result, provides evidence for a direct influence of toremifene upon the pituitary. An increase in LH and prolactin release in response to the LHRH test was characteristic in the responders.

In any case, it seems very promising and I'm definitely interested in seeing how your experience with it plays out. Also good to know about the oxytocin aspect. I probably wouldn't be too concerned with that, especially if you can tweak it by adjusting dosage or just sticking to a lower dose.

Great study, you have to remember though that these patients had such low Testosterone and terribly functioning Testicles, that they could not even get a women pregnant.

These are not healthy normal males, the subjects were nearly infertile and not meant to breed.

Toremifene raised their total hormone profile enough to restore proper Testosterone, Sperm Count, Sperm Mobility and Masculinity to the point where they could impregnate a women to pass on their once pathetic genes.

Logically, SHBG will be raised in this study because the endocrine baseline was so low to begin with.
Here is the interesting part, despite everything going up up up, Estradiol was brought down down down.

Unfortunately, you will be hard pressed to find studies done on Males with normal functioning Testicles, where Testosterone has had a natural age related decline.

[PUA_Rachacha]

(09-13-2017 04:56 PM)ScrapperTL Wrote:  

Forget the days of feeling like death on Letrozole or near-death on Arimidex.

Raloxifene has massive affinity for binding to the estrogen receptors in breast tissue.

Although Raloxifene is an extremely weak SERM, in high doses it will absolutely destroy even the oldest most stubborn estrogenic fat deposits (AKA gynecomastia/bitch tits)

If you are a naturally estrogenic person with declining levels of Testosterone, Toremifene plus Raloxifene combination will literally transform you into feeling like a completely different human being.

But raloxifene doesn't rid estrogen from your system, it just binds to estrogen receptors, especially in the breast tissue. Users of a SERM could still get high estrogen and suffer other sides, e.g., mental sides with high estrogen. However, it appears that you can use raloxifene for the long haul as it's prescribed for osteoporosis, with the because concern developing a blood clot. I may give this a shot since I have too much fat by my nipples that I've been struggling to eliminate since I was a fat kid 25 years ago.

(09-13-2017 04:56 PM)ScrapperTL Wrote:  

It is cutting edge shit.

My chief concern is that does there exist enough data to take it long-term? Clomiphene's been around since the early 70s and is generally considered safe for the long-term; I doubt the same data exist for Toremifene. Because what you're advocating, unless I'm misunderstanding you, is long-term use of Toremifene, which is a newer drug that is not even prescribed off-label for secondary hypogonadism or PCOS.

Why wouldn't you then advocate a combo of test cyp + hcg + ralox? Testosterone is obviously safe, hcg has a ton of research over the long haul, and ralox would alleviate issues with gyno. You'll still have to deal with elevated estrogen wreaking havoc elsewhere in your system, so I still believe that test + hcg + aromasin is the best combo.

Regardless, I agree that clomid is not the answer long-term. The eye floater I got plus the ridiculous high estrogen on 25mg EOD convinced me of that pretty quickly.

[ScrapperTL]

(09-18-2017 12:18 PM)PUA_Rachacha Wrote:  

(09-13-2017 04:56 PM)ScrapperTL Wrote:  

Forget the days of feeling like death on Letrozole or near-death on Arimidex.

Raloxifene has massive affinity for binding to the estrogen receptors in breast tissue.

Although Raloxifene is an extremely weak SERM, in high doses it will absolutely destroy even the oldest most stubborn estrogenic fat deposits (AKA gynecomastia/bitch tits)

If you are a naturally estrogenic person with declining levels of Testosterone, Toremifene plus Raloxifene combination will literally transform you into feeling like a completely different human being.

But raloxifene doesn't rid estrogen from your system, it just binds to estrogen receptors, especially in the breast tissue. Users of a SERM could still get high estrogen and suffer other sides, e.g., mental sides with high estrogen. However, it appears that you can use raloxifene for the long haul as it's prescribed for osteoporosis, with the because concern developing a blood clot. I may give this a shot since I have too much fat by my nipples that I've been struggling to eliminate since I was a fat kid 25 years ago.

(09-13-2017 04:56 PM)ScrapperTL Wrote:  

It is cutting edge shit.

My chief concern is that does there exist enough data to take it long-term? Clomiphene's been around since the early 70s and is generally considered safe for the long-term; I doubt the same data exist for Toremifene. Because what you're advocating, unless I'm misunderstanding you, is long-term use of Toremifene, which is a newer drug that is not even prescribed off-label for secondary hypogonadism or PCOS.

Why wouldn't you then advocate a combo of test cyp + hcg + ralox? Testosterone is obviously safe, hcg has a ton of research over the long haul, and ralox would alleviate issues with gyno. You'll still have to deal with elevated estrogen wreaking havoc elsewhere in your system, so I still believe that test + hcg + aromasin is the best combo.

Regardless, I agree that clomid is not the answer long-term. The eye floater I got plus the ridiculous high estrogen on 25mg EOD convinced me of that pretty quickly.

Toremifene is extremely safe and new research being conducted is proving that it actually prevents suppression on-cycle.
Again, not shutdown, suppression.

I have been working as a guinea pig with a very good friend of mine whose credentials are as follows:
He has a PhD in Pharmacology and Toxicology, with a BS in Neurobiology, Physiology, and Behavior and a minor in Biochemistry.
He has been published.
He has been a biomedical researcher for 17 years.
I would say he knows more about the detailed workings of the athletes body than any MD you have seen or will ever see.
I would also say that there are probably less than 50 researchers in this country who have attained the level of knowledge that he has regarding novel drug development and treatment.

My friend on running a SERM (specifically Toremifene) on cycle to prevent suppression:
"Because SERMs are ER-alpha inverse agonists and ER-beta agonists, and circulating androgens inhibit LH secretion at the pituitary level (J Steroid Biochem Mol Biol. 1996 Nov;59(3-4):315-22) while inhibiting GNRH secretion at the hypothalamic level (J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 1992 Jun;74(6):1227-35.), both sites SERMs act upon. So, since E2 is a much more potent stimulus for negative feedback, blocking ER-alpha thus more than cancels out the inhibitory effects of elevated androgen levels. It's analogous to taking two steps forward (SERM inverse agonism at ER-alpha) and one step back (androgen-induced negative feedback on hypothalamic and pituitary AR).

The inhibitory effect on gonadotropin secretion is mediated mainly by estradiol from endogenous conversion of testosterone rather than direct androgen action, at least in the pituitary gland (J Androl (1994) 15(1):15–21 ) Indeed, other studies suggested that in situ aromatization of testosterone is required both at the hypothalamic and pituitary levels to insure a complete feedback mechanism of gonadotropins (J Clin Endocrinol Metab (2001) 86(6):2600–610.1210, [and] ( J Clin Invest (1987) 80(3):631–810.1172)"

The everyday use of Toremifene is indeed cutting edge shit and no, there are no long term repercussions to fear.

[ScrapperTL]

But raloxifene doesn't rid estrogen from your system, it just binds to estrogen receptors, especially in the breast tissue. Users of a SERM could still get high estrogen and suffer other sides, e.g., mental sides with high estrogen. However, it appears that you can use raloxifene for the long haul as it's prescribed for osteoporosis, with the because concern developing a blood clot. I may give this a shot since I have too much fat by my nipples that I've been struggling to eliminate since I was a fat kid 25 years ago.

---------------

Think of it like this bro, Gynecomastia is like Rapefugees blowing themselves up when they get into your country.
Your "country" is the Estrogen Receptor.

Build a massive wall (benign estrogen) to protect your country (estrogen receptor) and you will have no Rapefugees blowing themselves up (Gynecomastia) in your country (estrogen receptor)
Building the wall takes 150mg Raloxifene everyday.
Depending on the reason you got Rapefugees in the first place (Gynecomastia) you may need to maintain the wall (50mg Raloxifene per day for people with natural fatty breast) or if you are lucky, no maintenance will be required (Gynecomastia came from Steroids)

Letrozole is like using a Nuclear Bomb, you might kill a shitload of Rapefugees but the whole world is going to suffer (your body)
Also, at some point you have to decide to keep Nuking or to Stop.
Once you Stop the Rapefugees will come back faster and stronger than ever (Rebound Gynecomastia)

Arimidex is similar to the Letrozole scenario, just on a smaller scale.

[Steelex]

It's relative to how much you aromatize.

A low dose of arimidex will totally crash my estrogen.

[Hypno]

I don't have a dog in this fight, but I do understand the drug approval process.

If a drug gets approved in the U.S., the FDA is certifying its safe and effective for its intended use.

On safety, they do clinical studies but the number of participants is limited. But adverse events are tracked for some drugs, so the longer a drug has been used the better. Clomid has been around for a while; Toremifene only about 10 years.

On efficacy, the FDA certifies that a certain dose is effective for a certain indication. Use of both Clomid and Toremifene by men are not consistent with that indication. So to some extent the safety information is irrelevant because it was probably all women in the studies. But the fact that humans have used these safely for a number of years gives a doc comfort in prescribing it off label, which he can do in his professional judgment. The only limitation is that in the U.S. the drug companies can't advertise the drug directly or indirectly for these off label uses without going through the FDA approval process.

Bottom line Clomid might be a bit safer than Toremifene because its been used by women longer, but I think Rachacha you might be exaggerating Clomid's safety advantage as any approved drug is basically in the same category.

[WannaBang]

Seriously interesting thread I must say. As one who travels a LOT and works in environments where having a ton of vials and needles is impractical, the use of SERMs as an alternative to conventional TRT is fascinating stuff!

This tomerifene sounds most interesting indeed. As well as boosting testosterone by way of increasing LH/FSH it sounds like there are less side effects associated with clomid/nolvadex when it comes to SHBG/E2. One reads that perhaps it does lead to lower free testosterone but surely this could be remedied by a suicide inhibitor like arimistane in theory. Maybe proviron as that is meant to up free testosterone. One is not an expert. What is most intriguing is that it can inhibit dopamine so if you are suffering from oneitis you can just cut it off (not that I would recommend that or anything!) Anyways. Maybe you can even run SARM cycles without needing to worry about about being suppressed for example.

Would love to know more about this stuff

[duedue]

I wrote about my low T in another thread. I'm in mid 30s with T levels in the 200-400 range from different tests. My fagot local eurologist refused to prescribe me T so I went to the anti-aging clinic of Dr Saya himself. He's put me on 12.5mg of clomid and 15mg of DHEA for 6 weeks. He said my estrogen levels were less than ideal too. It's been about a week now and I don't see much of a difference yet. I may be a little more motivated and may have a little more libido but it seems I've got a little depressed.

One drawback of clomid at opposed to T is that T is bioidentical while clomid is a chemical whose long term safety for men is not yet established.

[Steelex]

Another drawback is that clomid for low T doesn't work for shit.

Do you know what does?

Testosterone.

Fire your doctor.

[The Stronger Sex]

(04-07-2016 07:12 PM)CleanSlate Wrote:  

It's nice that you're feeling great now, but clomid tends to raise your estrogen, subsequently offsetting the benefits you get from higher T. Then within a couple months from now, you're back to where you started.

American doctors are overprescribing testosterone treatments to insecure cucks because they have a "the customer is always right" attitude. They're prescription dispensers rather than doctors.

[Vlastitel]

For the past 2 weeks I've been taking clomid 25mg every other day + AI Arimitase 100g daily to prevent an estrogen rebound. In a week's time I'll be getting my levels checked via a blood test.

I haven't noticed any changes in terms of energy levels, mood, libido etc. as of yet. Could somebody here who has had success with clomid let me know approximately how long it was before you started noticing improvements and what dosage you took?

This website (http://www.maledoc.com/blog/2010/04/28/h...ks-in-men/) claims that most men on clomid for testosterone don't feel anything as their levels increase. I don't see much point in increasing your testosterone if there isn't any effect from doing so.

I'm considering switching to testosterone injections if I don't see any significant changes in the next couple of weeks. Will keep you updated.

[birthday cat]

This thread has a lot of excellent information about SERMs, AIs, and SIs especially from ScrapperTL. Possibly the thread name should be changed. I never read much of the thread until now because I thought it was only about Clomid which I wasn't interested in.

ScrapperTL - please let us know if you have any updates on Toremifene and Raloxifene.

[ScrapperTL]

(11-08-2017 03:27 PM)birthday cat Wrote:  

This thread has a lot of excellent information about SERMs, AIs, and SIs especially from ScrapperTL. Possibly the thread name should be changed. I never read much of the thread until now because I thought it was only about Clomid which I wasn't interested in.

ScrapperTL - please let us know if you have any updates on Toremifene and Raloxifene.

PM'd you birthday cat.
Also, Toremifene will eventually (about 3 months of consistent use) cause acne and uncontrollable teenage like libido, which is actually incredibly annoying.

To prevent this, I lowered my dose to:
15mg E3D (every three days) off-cycle = no acne/ridiculous over the top libido

on-cycle is a whole different ball game, you gotta try to find the sweet spot.
The amount on-cycle will vary depending on the type and amount of Androgens you are introducing into your body.
Example 1: Anavar you can get away with 30mg Toremifene E3D (every three days) to prevent testicular suppression - no acne
Example 2: Winstrol puts you in the zone of 45mg Toremifene EOD (every other day) to prevent testicular suppression - some acne
Example 3: Trenbolone your talking 60mg Toremifene ED (everyday) to prevent testicular suppression - acne

Notice that the harsher the Androgen, the harder it is to avoid acne because you will need a higher daily dose of Toremifene to prevent testicular suppression.

A man with a good head on his shoulders will deduce something clever from the above Examples.
...
You can run a low to moderate dose of Anavar ED (everyday) and a moderate dose of Toremifene E3D (every three days) for life with no consequences to your endocrine system.

For anyone that has played around with real legit pharmaceutical grade Anavar - you realize how powerful the above statement is.

[zoom]

I agree that the name of this thread should probably be changed. ScrapperTL is dropping some serious gold!

[Hypno]

Clomid worked for me but I had a cuck doctor who didn't want to prescribe a SERM. So I got high total T but the result was offset by higher E and I have a rare case of high SHBG. So I went to a doc who would give me a SERM.

I initially felt tons of energy and that dissipated over 2 weeks.

I'm pinning T know with anastrazole and HCG and having similar results. In fact, I'm accelerating my blood tests because I havent really gotten much of a result.

My doc is an anti-aging outfit in Tampa. Wasn't familiar with Toremifene. So is you want to follow scrapper's advice you are going to have to search for a doc who will prescribe it.

[birthday cat]

(11-09-2017 05:59 AM)Hypno Wrote:  

I'm pinning T know with anastrazole and HCG and having similar results. In fact, I'm accelerating my blood tests because I havent really gotten much of a result.

I'm assuming you are using cypionate or enanthate. I suggest giving it at least 6 to 9 weeks. It takes time for blood levels to increase. For the first 5 weeks or so you are essentially on a lower dosage of testosterone than you are actually taking.

[Jim Kirk]

I have been taking Toremifene and Raloxifine every other day for about 3 weeks at this point. I had blood work done right before beginning this -my T level was 756. My Estradiol level was slightly elevated. I have never taken anything like this prior - maybe the closest that I got would be pine pollen, eleuthero and several ginsing and plant tinctures. I am a 42 year old male - stressed out of my mind with 3 kids with a desk job.

Although its too soon to rule out a placebo effect, I woke up with a slight acne at the nose this morning, I have gotten angrier at things like traffic and such, I did a massive chest workout this week and did not have much in the way of muscle soreness the following evening. I was able to do pushups and such 24 hours later. I am going to do this for 6 months and get more bloodwork and will report back -

[Cruisen_Chubby]

(11-09-2017 10:19 PM)Jim Kirk Wrote:  

I have been taking Toremifene and Raloxifine every other day for about 3 weeks at this point. I had blood work done right before beginning this -my T level was 756. My Estradiol level was slightly elevated. I have never taken anything like this prior - maybe the closest that I got would be pine pollen, eleuthero and several ginsing and plant tinctures. I am a 42 year old male - stressed out of my mind with 3 kids with a desk job.

Although its too soon to rule out a placebo effect, I woke up with a slight acne at the nose this morning, I have gotten angrier at things like traffic and such, I did a massive chest workout this week and did not have much in the way of muscle soreness the following evening. I was able to do pushups and such 24 hours later. I am going to do this for 6 months and get more bloodwork and will report back -

Captain,

What dosage are you taking and what are your goals? For your age your test seems okay.

Also-- 3 kids and a desk job... how's your diet look?

[Hypno]

(11-09-2017 10:52 AM)birthday cat Wrote:  

(11-09-2017 05:59 AM)Hypno Wrote:  

I'm pinning T know with anastrazole and HCG and having similar results. In fact, I'm accelerating my blood tests because I havent really gotten much of a result.

I'm assuming you are using cypionate or enanthate. I suggest giving it at least 6 to 9 weeks. It takes time for blood levels to increase. For the first 5 weeks or so you are essentially on a lower dosage of testosterone than you are actually taking.

Yes, cypionate. But when I took clomid, I had almost immediate results.

I'm patient, the problem is the side effects are being ineffectively countered in my case. My new doc did give me a SERM, but its probably the SHBG in my case which is unusually high. So I'm going to have another blood test.

As for Clomid, some docs will prescribe it without the SERM which in my case was a waste of time. Its best to find a doc that is comfortable with TRT therapy. In my case, I went to an endocrinologist recommended by my long term primary care physician, but the guy basically is a diabetes doc, not TRT, and had no experience treating my symptoms. He told me no matter the symptoms, he would never prescribe T for somene with T over 300.

[ScrapperTL]

(11-10-2017 06:36 AM)Hypno Wrote:  

(11-09-2017 10:52 AM)birthday cat Wrote:  

(11-09-2017 05:59 AM)Hypno Wrote:  

I'm pinning T know with anastrazole and HCG and having similar results. In fact, I'm accelerating my blood tests because I havent really gotten much of a result.

I'm assuming you are using cypionate or enanthate. I suggest giving it at least 6 to 9 weeks. It takes time for blood levels to increase. For the first 5 weeks or so you are essentially on a lower dosage of testosterone than you are actually taking.

Yes, cypionate. But when I took clomid, I had almost immediate results.

I'm patient, the problem is the side effects are being ineffectively countered in my case. My new doc did give me a SERM, but its probably the SHBG in my case which is unusually high. So I'm going to have another blood test.

As for Clomid, some docs will prescribe it without the SERM which in my case was a waste of time. Its best to find a doc that is comfortable with TRT therapy. In my case, I went to an endocrinologist recommended by my long term primary care physician, but the guy basically is a diabetes doc, not TRT, and had no experience treating my symptoms. He told me no matter the symptoms, he would never prescribe T for somene with T over 300.

Hypno, unless you have extremely off the charts high levels of Estrogen - I would advise against using aromatase inhibitors.

Aromatase Inhibitors (AI) such as Arimidex will crush estrogen levels and over time leave you feeling lethargic throughout the day.
Coffee and energy supplements might help, though it won't feel the same as your normal baseline energy levels.
Letrozole (AI) will kill estrogen levels and over time leave you feeling like death throughout the day.
Also once you stop using Aromatase Inhibitors, the male body will often have a massive estrogen rebound that can result in Gyno.
That is why people who use only AI's for Post Cycle Therapy end up losing all their gains and getting bitch tits.

Suicide Inhibitors (SI) are what you need.
Exemestane (SI) and Arimistane (SI) will moderately lower SHBG and only slightly lower Estrogen.
The great thing is once you stop using Suicide Inhibitor's there is no estrogen rebound, so they can technically be used solo for Post Cycle Therapy as well. Although a strong SERM is always the best choice for this.

I know your Doctor will not prescribe Exemestane (SI) for you so here is the solution:
Arimistane (SI) is a 100% legal over the counter Suicide Inhibitor (atleast for now) and Victor Pride from http://www.BoldandDetermined.com sells it here: https://redsupplements.com/product/red-pct/

Arimistane (SI) will lower SHBG moderately and lower Estrogen slightly.
This is exactly what you need, you will have better energy levels from not crushing Estrogen and more unbound Free Testosterone/DHT in your bloodstream due to lower SHBG levels.

NOTE: Arimistane (SI) is not as powerful as Exemestane (SI) so you'll need to play around with Higher Dosages to find the sweet spot.

As for your Arimidex/Anastrozole (AI), I would either stop using this completely or use it every 3 days at a very low dose.
Doctors don't know how extremely powerful and overkill Anastrozole (AI) is.
It messes with your bones, your energy levels, lipids, etc...

The modern man has no use for Aromatase Inhibitors, specifically because of the existence of Raloxifene and less so because of Suicide Inhibitors.

[Jim Kirk]

@Cruisen -

As per some suggestions - I am taking 15mg Toremifine and 150mg of ralofixene every other day. Because of work schedule its been more like ever 60 hours.

For the last 2 months my diet has been steak, chicken and eggs. I cheated with candy around Halloween but ive been eating that type of diet.

As for goals, with some years of exception in between, ive always had these odd fat deposits at the chest - after 9 months (out of 12) of regular exercise doing everything from kettlebells, to TRX to squatting, my chest has lost virtually none of the 'tit' aspect to it although my entire body has shrunk. I have not been this strong in over 15 years. Also, I have similar deposits around my guy forming as it has shrunk.

I was curious as a general question, does drinking an alcoholic beverage around the time you take these formulas increase any liver damage or counteract their effect. I typically pour myself one glass of scotch a night and I have 3 to 4 drinks on a Saturday or Sunday.

[Cruisen_Chubby]

Is there any difference between taking the powder or the liquid version?

I noticed the liquid version is notably more expensive and you seem to get less of it.