[Designate]

(04-07-2016 07:21 PM)Brodiaga Wrote:  

I believe every man should try spending at least a few months in a different country. It opens your mind and makes you a better, more interesting person. However, while you can evolve and make your life better (or worse) by moving, your fundamental personality traits will not change. You can't run away from yourself.

Good post and I agree, if it's possible I think every man should give extended travel of multiple months a try. Doing this right now for the first time in my life. I've noticed many positive personal transformations and there will probably be more as I continue to grow into it. Whether or not this will be permanent time will tell, but from where I stand now I think it's possible. My heart and mind have always longed for the road.

Underrated second point as well. From a positive standpoint this is especially true for the psychologically hardened guys on this forum who have their shit together and are highly adaptable to any environment. Reminds me of that Bruce Lee quote that I think guys here embody:

Quote:

“You must be shapeless, formless, like water. When you pour water in a cup, it becomes the cup. When you pour water in a bottle, it becomes the bottle. When you pour water in a teapot, it becomes the teapot.”

[Ibagemyoutagem]

I'm personally about to embark on my adventure to Cambodia . I stayed their for a few months last summer and loved it. Its the freedom, the lack of laws, the true to the sense that money does talk. Everything about it feels like Its where I belong and I intended to start my life there. There's just really something about that country that really captures me.

[Thaitanium]

(04-08-2016 12:14 PM)rottenapple Wrote:  

(04-08-2016 11:45 AM)Thaitanium Wrote:  

(04-08-2016 09:32 AM)rottenapple Wrote:  

I think we have to disagree on this one. Fresh foods are available in bio shops where you pay the double of what is already expensive. How many guys under 30 do you know that can afford to buy all their food in bio shops? Once again the US is worse off, but that is not what I am comparing to. Chemicals are more prevalent in Europe than in Africa/South America and I imagine most of Asia, that is a fact. You can avoid them? Good for you if you can but you must be an expert on the matter then, because they are everywhere. In your food, your furniture, anything plastic, the toys of your children, all cosmetics, etc. If you study the matter and really think about it continuously, you could avoid it for a big part. However, air quality, wow I have no idea what you refer too. Air quality is absolute shit in Central Europe. Maybe if you live in the South of France or the Schwarzwalde area in Germany it can be ok, Switzerland perhaps is ok as well. The rest is among the worst of the world. Belgium, Holland, the Ruhr area have dramatic air quality. There is no official data, but you can be assured many disseases are linked to this. You cannot compare it to anywhere in Latin America or Africa (perhaps Sao Paolo/Cairo could have similar problems but those are extremes). And a majority of the fruits I buy here in a supermarket in Ecuador are organic and dirt cheap. The food industry here is not as developed so a lot of food still comes from small time farmers. It is no issue at all to find unprocessed, high quality food for a very good price. They can even deliver fruit and vegetable baskets at your place. The diversity of the food is very high as well and in general if you want the processed imported crap, you pay extra, so you would not only be damaging your health but also your wallet.

Hope that clears it up a bit.

I find your post very informative, but I do have to disagree on the Air quality in Europe. While I am looking to get out of the Netherlands myself for a variety of reasons, the air quality is not one of them. Look at the index on this map:

Air pollution world map

I agree on the ruhr area, and I would not want to live close, but having been in parts of Asia, I sure think the air over here is clean. According to the map, it's actually better then Ecuador or many other places.

I am no expert and looking at your map, you might be right. I wonder why though. For instance Ecuador has no huge industries and has so much nature and dense forests. What would make the air quality there the same as for instance Rotterdam (according to the map they are close), where there is an abundance of industry, the large port, more cars per person, higher population density and so forth?

The place where I found air quality to be absolutely horrible has been Mexico City and it is common knowledge that China has hotspots, which are considered the worst in the world. Anyway, I stand corrected on air quality.

I actually think the map is real time, so it fluctuates a bit too. A lot has to do with the surroundings and geography of an area. Mexico city is located in a valley, so all the smoke and exhaust fumes stay between the mountains. And I know that in the summer Korea has a lot of trouble with Chinese pollution, the same as places like Singapore or even Thailand a few months back when there were forest fires in Indonesia. So the wind direction has something to do with it too.

Why Ecuador is more polluted, I have no idea, perhaps the capital is surrounded by mountains? I guess they only measure the capital city.

[the biggest cheetah]

Old cars cause tons of pollution. The US would have near unbreathable air if emission standards were as lax as in parts of Latin America.

[NASA Test Pilot]

Sometimes when we think of being an expat our frame is similar to what we knew and what were comfortable with beforehand; that we were raised in one country and therefore, we will live in one country (or town or neighborhood for that matter). Consider that being an expat is more than simply a matter of moving from one country (or town in that country) to another country and staying there. There is a whole world to explore and you can live in many countries for longer periods of time or shorter periods of time. You can go back and forth between them as well.

I have houses in 4 countries on 3 continents and a sailboat to go in between if I do not fly. For me being an expat is about adventure and being the man inside this bag of mostly water. This does not mean that you cannot settle down and have LTR´s or families, or stay in one place for years at time; sure you can, have at it. You can do this, to include having (multiple) families in more than one country. This may seem like a radical idea for some, but I put it out there as a thought anyways. I have been adventuring my whole life and particularly as an expat for over a decade. Being a perpetual traveler is not just moving between countries, it is moving between the destinations within your day as well.

The sense of wonder and vigor that I feel as I travel and learn is immense. I wake up each day with that smile of anticipation and ready myself for what awaits me that day.

[jake1720]

I'm not sure if it is only me. In the past year I have lived in 3 different states for 2+ weeks at a time and undergo culture shock on a week to week basis sometimes. It really does get old.

I love traveling, but when you travel so much for long periods of time it really is hard to stay grounded.

[Shoubuliao]

(04-08-2016 05:51 PM)NASA Test Pilot Wrote:  

The sense of wonder and vigor that I feel as I travel and learn is immense. I wake up each day with that smile of anticipation and ready myself for what awaits me that day.

This is what I miss more than anything else. In some ways being at home feels like waiting to die. When I was abroad there was a sense of possibility that, no matter how hard I try to recapture here by adjusting my perspective, simply eludes me. Living in another country truly changes you for life. It's so stimulating that coming back to your own country is like being permanently sedated.

[wilberforceeggmont]

I grew un in Brisbane, studied there, then lived in Sydney, London, Melbourne, Singapore (2 stints), was seconded to Bangkok, Madras and Dubai for around three months each time and am now back in Sydney. In between, I have racked up a few hundred days backpacking / travelling away from the city I was living in at the time. Am early-mid 30s and single.

Here's what I learned;

- A country Australian may rave about how great it would be to live in NYC and a New Yorker will visit a coastal town in Australia and tell everyone upon their return that that is where they would love to move to if they could. Basically - everyone wants the "other" thing.

- Cities become familiar. Familiarity breeds contempt. Choosing where to live as long as you open up the potential to succeed at what you find important at the time, is nowhere near as important as choosing how to live.

- If you spent a lot of time studying and are good at what you do and enjoy it, I wouldn't throw it all away just to live in another country. A break is OK, but no city anywhere is worth sacrificing very good money for. I tried it, just to throw a circuit breaker in to my life because I thought I needed it at the time and because I could well afford to from a financial perspective - but I went back to what I do and do best and to this day still enjoy. It was a failed exercise.

- Accept who you are and what you like and dislike by the age of 30, don't try and fight it and don't move abroad where there's a lot you don't like - because life's too short. For example, I don't particularly like Asian, Arabic and countries in Asia Minor. I was bombarded with : xenophobia, odd smelling food, Asian princesses bragging about how wealthy their families were, senses of entitlement, SEA women who natively look ugly to me with their bridgeless noses and large mandibles etc, countries which define people based upon their outward showings of wealth, the abuse of power, seeing people spit everywhere, multi-layered and systemic corruption, jealousy from usually poor and ugly non-white native males, being singled out because I was a foreigner... man I could type for days... I'll never work anywhere between Eastern Europe and Japan again.

- It's not where you live, it's whether or not you're achieving your goals through correct courses of action. Right now, I'm at the peak of my earning game. I'd happily move to the right small town in Northern America for a year if the money was astronomical, despite the fact that I have a significant preference for large cities. When I was in my early and mid 20s, all I cared about was studying hard to get a world class education. Once I got it, I couldn't stop thinking about banging women. I got addicted to the gym and to this day cycle steroids. If I want to fuck tonight, it's not the location I'm in or whether or not I happen to be an expat, it's my behaviour which will determine my success.

[Quaestum]

(04-08-2016 09:32 AM)rottenapple Wrote:  

Ok let me clarify. First of all, it was a personal opinion coming from my perspective and offcourse Europe has a lot of diversity. This plays a huge role in my analysis. I am from Central Europe.

-Dutch people are more open than Germans, but they are kind of the strange bird in Central Europe. Besides Germans, I wouldn´t call Belgians, French, Austrians, Swiss as being socially open. People are overall more serious and introvert than what I am used to in South America/Africa and the States.
If you make that comparison - yes, true. I thought you make a comparison between people in Europe.

-Ugly women: I exclude Eastern Europe here, I love women from those countries and I can´t comment on Scandinavia. However, Latin American women are my ideal, not only in looks, but in general feminine attitude as well. Many men will agree.
All good.

-Work: Yes, we work a lot less than Americans. I truly pity the Americans that take one week holiday a year. However Europeans also work very hard, in less time. They might not be sitting ten hours at their desk every day, but in the 8 hours when they do, they are under pressure and they work hard. My comparison is not with the US, but with most of second and third world. The general work athmosphere is more relaxed. People have less stress, no doubt about it. One thing I forgot to mention is the weather. When you arrive at work soaked by rain and cold, you tend to be in a less mood than when here I arrive at my work after a nice walk through the park in the sun.
I'm not saying you should work a whole lot, but after all this is one of the factors that allowed Europe its prosperity, doesn't it? If the South American lifestyle is more what you feel is right for you, absolutely go for it. Yet I think in (Central) Europe, we have a pretty good work - life balance compared to many other countries with high living standard.

-Expensive: Yes talking about Central and Northern Europe, Eastern Europe is fine, Southern Europe is ok as well. Still L.A. and Africa beat them easily.
Granted.

-Settling down: Yes, but one thing I noticed is people here in Latin America still go out a lot even when married or with children. You can see 60 year olds on the dancefloor here, how many times does that happen in Europe? The difference between settling down here and in Europe is big and that is part of what I am referring to. In Europe, I have friends that really dissapeared from social life once they had a fixed girl. Might be country specific or just related to my own life, but that is what I mean.
I wasn't aware of this. I should make my way over there at some point to see what it's like.

-Nature: Agreed nature in Norway or many other places is very beautiful. However, Norway is extremely expensive. In Ecuador with 15 bucks from Quito I can reach or tropical beaches, or some of the highest and most spectacular volcanoes and mountains in the world or the Amazon rainforest. The country can´t be beat in this regard. Probably Nr.1 spot in the world in terms of diversity, spectacular beauty and affordability. Other countries in the area, as well as in Africa or the States beat Central Europe easily in this regard.
There's a lot of factors which have to be taken into account, but I get your point.

I think we have to disagree on this one. Fresh foods are available in bio shops where you pay the double of what is already expensive. How many guys under 30 do you know that can afford to buy all their food in bio shops?
Not many, but if you're under 30, still live with your parents and earn money, it is possible, although you won't be able to ie buy organic-fed meat regularly. I know because I've done it.

Once again the US is worse off, but that is not what I am comparing to. Chemicals are more prevalent in Europe than in Africa/South America and I imagine most of Asia, that is a fact. You can avoid them? Good for you if you can but you must be an expert on the matter then, because they are everywhere. In your food, your furniture, anything plastic, the toys of your children, all cosmetics, etc. If you study the matter and really think about it continuously, you could avoid it for a big part. [...] And a majority of the fruits I buy here in a supermarket in Ecuador are organic and dirt cheap. The food industry here is not as developed so a lot of food still comes from small time farmers. It is no issue at all to find unprocessed, high quality food for a very good price. They can even deliver fruit and vegetable baskets at your place. The diversity of the food is very high as well and in general if you want the processed imported crap, you pay extra, so you would not only be damaging your health but also your wallet.
Again thank you for shedding some light on this. I don't know a whole lot about South America and I wouldn't have thought that mostly organic stuff is readily available rather than industrially processed food.

Hope that clears it up a bit.
Yep! I don't need to comment on the air quality part since Thaitanium got this sorted already. It's good to hear a different perspective.

[DaveR]

I would say air quality in Germany and the surrounding countries is average, not good. The EU has done a good job of targeting specific pollutants, but nothing can change the underlying problems caused by half a billion people living on a small continent. The only places in Europe which have truly clean air are the extremities - Ireland, Portugal, Spain and Norway.

You can check real-time data on the following site:
http://earth.nullschool.net/#current/che...258,49.048

The background level in the Southern Hemisphere is much lower than in the Northern Hemisphere. For example, the level of carbon monoxide is 130 ppbv in rural Iceland. In the rural areas of New Zealand, Australia, Argentina and Chile, it's around 65 ppbv.
After saying that, pollution levels in the large cities of South America and Australia can still be quite high as those cities tend to rely on private transport and don't have strict emissions regulations.

[Cr33pin]

[MikeS]

I've been living in Bulgaria for three years. I currently can't really think of reasons why I would ever consider moving back to Denmark.
Living costs are much lower here (now if I was on a local salary I would certainly be feeling differently, Bulgaria is one of the poorest countries in Europe), beautiful nature whether you want mountains or beaches, attractive girls who take a bit more effort to get into bed than the Danish ones (I was going to add some specific positives about the BG girls here, but truth be told I never had a particularly negative opinion of the average Danish girl - aside from their slow march towards obesity), and the culture and daily life is not so different and alien that it feels difficult to fit in.

It's not impossible that I might choose to relocate again in the future, but I doubt my native country would be first on the list, unless I had some very specific and critical or highly beneficial reasons for returning.

[Quaestum]

Out of curiosity, did you get a position by your Danish company in Bulgaria or how did you end up there?

DaveR, having lived in both Germany and New Zealand, I didn't notice a major difference in the air quality, although I'm aware it's much better here. On a side note, there are quite a few places in Germany called "Luftkurorte" (not sure what that would translate to in English) but it literally means places to get "healed" by clean air. I've been to one once and my allergies to grass etc. which are normally rampant in summer where gone while I was there...it's good!

[MikeS]

(04-12-2016 01:08 AM)Quaestum Wrote:  

Out of curiosity, did you get a position by your Danish company in Bulgaria or how did you end up there?
...

I do freelance online work. I just wanted a change of scenery and the low living costs was one of my primary reasons for specifically choosing Bulgaria, since I did have - and still have - some practical reasons for residing within Europe. Otherwise I would might have ended up somewhere else, like SEA for instance.

[Rawmeo]

Yes I can. I work entirely online and make enough money to make people envious. And I don't see myself returning to Canada, with SJW, feminists, etc.

I believe that Canada, a few years ago, used to be among the best places to be. Unfortunately, feminism brought society to its knees, with fat / single parenthood / SJW acceptance. The culture is gone. I wouldn't fit in this world, unless some drastic changes get put in place to reverse the damage done.

[PragueDude]

2 years in Central Europe. I have the easiest life ever. The hardest thing I do is approach. I sleep in between lessons, go to the gym after, study the language and hit on the beautiful Central Euro women. What does the US offer? Higher pay, friendlier people? So what.

[swiss rabbit]

(04-16-2016 04:24 AM)PragueDude Wrote:  

2 years in Central Europe. I have the easiest life ever. The hardest thing I do is approach. I sleep in between lessons, go to the gym after, study the language and hit on the beautiful Central Euro women. What does the US offer? Higher pay, friendlier people? So what.

More than half a decade living abroad in Europe - I'm ready to move back, tired of being a foreigner, tired of being the outsider. Home is the U.S. I know actually I'll work more and have less holiday but ready to trade that for open and social people.

[Stadtaffe]

I never used or liked the term expat for myself, it always makes me think of some British blogger who's been ten years in Thailand running some kind of tourism oriented business, barely speaking the language etc. Nothing wrong with that and I like the British too, but just that learning the language and assimilating are an important part of it, expat just sounds like you're a foreign tack-on to a society rather than someone who has really worked to be part of it.

[Baldwin81]

(05-02-2016 04:48 PM)swiss rabbit Wrote:  

More than half a decade living abroad in Europe - I'm ready to move back, tired of being a foreigner, tired of being the outsider. Home is the U.S. I know actually I'll work more and have less holiday but ready to trade that for open and social people.

As someone who moved from the coastal US to the midwestern US more than a half decade ago, a word of caution:

Smartphones have completely changed socialization in this country. Rural areas excluded, midwestern US people are now like cheap knock-offs of coastal US people.

^ I'm not discounting feeling like an outsider overseas. At the same time, if you're not into "work, eat, status-whore on social media, repeat..." prepare to feel like an stranger in your homeland.

[semibaron]

I have met countless Expats while being in Japan. Not one of them was happy.

From my observations there are two kinds of expats:

1. The guys who reject the host culture completely. They don't care for the culture nor learn the language. They complain that no one speaks English and everyone is acting weird. Of course they only have other same minded friends.

2. Expats who fully adapted to the new culture. This group adapted so much to the new culture that they changed their whole personality. They are neither western nor Japanese. Trapped between two cultures these people struggle to find friends to connect with. The locals will always look on you like on an alien and you have already adjusted too much to connect with your western buddies.


I think it is totally possible if you move into a western-like country. The language should be easy enough to learn and the people should be somehow of European origin. I'm thinking of countries like Colombia or Brazil.

[monsquid]

Grew up in US. Lived in Japan for two years, also asian myself (though not Japanese). Now back in the US.

Love traveling but the US is where I am going to make my home. I think the suburbs are great for couples without children but the idea of raising my kids in sheltered suburbia disheartens me. But there is no perfect solution, every place/country has advantages and disadvantages.

I think the ideal would be if you live in an international city with a high paying job and you can afford to send your kids to an international school. But these schools range from $25-30k/year. So for me paying higher mortgage to live in an area with great public school (like I did) is a decent tradeoff.

[el conquistador]

I don't like A/B options, I like to find a third way.

On one end of the scale is a guy who lives a few hours away from where he was born and only gets away 2 weeks a year.

At the other end is a guy who has settled in a foreign country and never goes back home.

I'd like to do something between the two: 8 months at home and 4 months in one or two great places abroad. Even with a job/kids you could pull this off. Not easy, but doable.

[Dalaran1991]

(05-04-2016 09:08 AM)el conquistador Wrote:  

I don't like A/B options, I like to find a third way.

On one end of the scale is a guy who lives a few hours away from where he was born and only gets away 2 weeks a year.

At the other end is a guy who has settled in a foreign country and never goes back home.

I'd like to do something between the two: 8 months at home and 4 months in one or two great places abroad. Even with a job/kids you could pull this off. Not easy, but doable.

I think this is actually what most "expats" do, especially when they get older. I will not go back to live in Vietnam for any length of time, but I'm sure as hell gonna visit it every 1-2 years to see my parents and take advantage of the crazy currency exchange rate. Most expats friend I know do the same. The richer usually fly back and forth several times a year but in shorter time windows.

[Shoubuliao]

(05-04-2016 09:08 AM)el conquistador Wrote:  

I'd like to do something between the two: 8 months at home and 4 months in one or two great places abroad. Even with a job/kids you could pull this off. Not easy, but doable.

This is my plan. I'd like to spend a couple months per year in Asia working remotely, the rest in the US.

Some interesting comments since I first posted this thread. The guy who mentioned expats in Japan is dead on in my experience. It's not just Japan though, it's expats all over Asia. There may be exceptions (none are coming to me right now), but all the long-term expats I know of in China, Japan, Thailand, and Vietnam are either extremely bitter because they're still treated like outsiders or completely insane.

And they don't have a home to go back to, unless they want to move back in with their parents. I was in that same position while I was in China. I hated that feeling and it was often a damper on what was otherwise an amazing experience. I need to feel like I have a home base in the US to enjoy traveling abroad. In my early 20s I thought it was cool to be a nomad with a backpack, but that's not remotely attractive to me anymore.

The US is pretty boring in a lot of ways, but as long as I can get back to Asia a few weeks per year, I'm good I think.

[malakaix]

(05-04-2016 03:15 PM)Shoubuliao Wrote:  

In my early 20s I thought it was cool to be a nomad with a backpack, but that's not remotely attractive to me anymore.

I have come to this same realization as I enter my late twenties. I followed that nomad backpacker lifestyle in my early twenties and spent a couple of years overseas but towards the end of that experience I had an intense desire to build a life.

The idea sells so well because so many people are in work/life situations they want to escape but it's not until you actually do it and the honeymoon period cools off that you realize there's only a few people who can really commit to such an idea long-term, most people do want to have some sort of structure built up around them.

I think I could do the long-term expat in Europe as I have an EU citizenship and the years I spent there I found it easy to integrate and had built up a small circle of local friends/local girls. But I really don't know now with all the immigration and EU policy change going on.