[PragueDude]

(05-02-2016 04:48 PM)swiss rabbit Wrote:  

(04-16-2016 04:24 AM)PragueDude Wrote:  

2 years in Central Europe. I have the easiest life ever. The hardest thing I do is approach. I sleep in between lessons, go to the gym after, study the language and hit on the beautiful Central Euro women. What does the US offer? Higher pay, friendlier people? So what.

More than half a decade living abroad in Europe - I'm ready to move back, tired of being a foreigner, tired of being the outsider. Home is the U.S. I know actually I'll work more and have less holiday but ready to trade that for open and social people.

Interesting post. So the outsider thing eventually got to ya, eh? I'm at the point where my attention span decreases due to shit English. Plus I teach it so that doesn't help. Other than that I feel like I still have a lot to see but it very well could be an illusion.

[Valentine]

Expat yes.

Nomad no.

Expat simply means you don't want to live in your country of birth. Why would you want to stick in your home country when there's hundreds of others which may be better suited to your temperament?

I think a big part of whether you can do this is dependent on how close you are with your family. They're one of the main reasons why I returned after living abroad for a while.

[Little Bo Peep]

I've been an expat in Thailand for 10 years now... that's been my entire adult life, really - I came here when I was 19, now I'm 29. The answer to the OP's question is either no or it depends. Basically, if you have a hefty income then yeah, it's great to be an expat. If, however, you're unskilled and poor, you'll end up realizing you've made a huge fucking mistake (like me). I'm going back to New Zealand in about 1 month and never coming back to this shit-hole.

That's not to say I hate it. Like any masochistic drug addict, I just can't give the idea up. I'm leaving because I'm right now a financial eunuch, however… I do eventually plan to return (although not to Thailand - India has crossed my mind).

The problems are sad, really. I cannot legally work in Thailand and I'm broke right now with no real way to pull myself out. Yet when I got back to NZ, I face the very real problem of having no genuine work experience or education to help me land a job. Basically, my prospective employer is going to ask what I've been doing the past 10 years… and I'm, like, "smoking weed in a jungle… why?" So, I'm doomed to work a shitty job when I get to NZ, and that will doom me to being unable to find a Western wife (even if I was interested in the predominantly slut hos there). The answer to this conundrum? Just save money to come back to SEA! Rinse and repeat!

Even just working a few years, I'll be able to save enough cash to prop up another decade in India. The fact that I'm low status in the West won't matter. White skin and a bit of cash will land me a fucking hot Indian wife, and I'll get her preggers and that will be that. I already have 2 Thai daughters, by the way, which I now have to drag along wherever I go, but whatever.

I do have a plan to break the cycle, eventually… I'm a writer (fantasy) and I'm actually pretty good. Soon enough I'll find a literary agent to push one of my novels. It's only a matter of time if I keep at it. I don't believe I'll still be poor as shit when I'm, like, 45 or so. Also, I've got children, and we'll invest in our futures as a team, yeah.

Still, you can see the conundrum I face due to having come to SEA without first doing university or something - the advice: don't do it. Before becoming an expat make sure you have overseas income sorted out and preferably a useful university degree up your sleeve, otherwise you will be picking up the pieces (and shoving them in your suitcase) for the rest of your fucking life.

Just staying in NZ is not an option, though. As I said, if I'm working a shitty manual labor job for Forestry or something, I won't be able to attract a wife I could stomach being seen with in public (because every guy there is smirking because she's fucked 'em all). I like hot, young, chaste girls, so I simply have to get back to SEA as soon as possible. I don't have time to linger, go back to school, whatever. Seriously, becoming an expat can fuck you.

Yeah, though, it's addictive. I see a lot, I do a lot, and I know a shit-load more about the world than most people. There's no way I can give it up.

[Fortis]

^ There is so much wrong with that post that I can't even process it all.

1) Moved to Thailand without any plan.
2) Developed no Marketable skills despite having the internet.
3) Decries moving to another country with no plan and says you can't expatriate forever.
4) Plans to move back to a western nation to get enough money to repeat the cycle again in India.
5) Banking his future on being a fantasy novelist.
6) Worried about getting a western wife despite knowing they suck.
7) Profit???

I don't mean to sound mean, but I can see why you're in that situation. You're not even 30 but you've quit on yourself.

[Little Bo Peep]

1. I was 19 and raised by a single mother/feminist - what did you expect?!
2. Skills on the internet? Seriously?!
5. I'm a good writer, though. That's a true thing. Also, my writing skills were largely developed through learning from the internet, which I suppose is relevant to point #2.
6. I'm not worried about getting a Western wife - I said I won't even try, which is why I have to get back to SEA as soon as possible (I mean, I'm talking about it already and I haven't even left yet!)
7. Children = profit. Building a large traditional-values family = investing in your future and retirement.

I'm alright. My advice, though, was indeed not to do things precisely as I do (because I know things could be done better than this, but I'm too far through my life to back-flip now, aye).

[Putin Closes]

The US is a decent place to raise a family. No crime if you live in the right areas, breathable air, relative cheap cost of living (if you live outside the major coastal cities), spread out land, and pretty much you can buy whatever you want and it will be delivered within a couple days.

Now you have to marry the right girl who isn't about "the big city lifestyle" but some do exist who are comfortable in suburban lifestyle and stay (relatively) faithful as long as you maintain a good frame.

For a single man though, feminism has ruined a lot of aspects.

[Recovering Beta]

You certainly can be, but if you hop from country to country that can get old. You want to make sure you have a secure old age. My recommendation is since you can't contribute foreign, non-taxable income to a Roth IRA, set up a Vanguard Index Fund and contribute to it; plus, look at buying a house free and clear and renting it out to accumulate monthly income.

Most expats I know who moved back to America regretted it.

[CleanSlate]

(05-06-2016 03:25 AM)Little Bo Peep Wrote:  

2. Skills on the internet? Seriously?!

Yeah, seriously. There are plenty of ways to make money on the internet or doing work entirely online. If you've been in Thailand for 10 years, surely you've seen tons of other expats who do exactly that.

[Little Bo Peep]

(05-06-2016 09:43 AM)CleanSlate Wrote:  

(05-06-2016 03:25 AM)Little Bo Peep Wrote:  

2. Skills on the internet? Seriously?!

Yeah, seriously. There are plenty of ways to make money on the internet or doing work entirely online. If you've been in Thailand for 10 years, surely you've seen tons of other expats who do exactly that.

Nah, man, I live in rural Nakhon Si Thammarat. I haven't seen another white person in months… but seen is different from interacted with. I think it's been years since I've had a conversation in English longer than a few sentences with anybody.

I don't seriously believe it's possible to make easy money on the internet. It's possible to, like, buy cheap clothes in Bangkok and sell them on eBay and stuff, but that takes effort and money - it isn't easy. Nothing is easy. I've been working rice and rubber trees where I live. It's the only real work there is around here.

I'll be more savvy in the future, though. Yeah, I do have a few ideas for internet stuff, actually. For one, I reckon I can write a better blog and better pick-up books than Roosh does (my books would be SE Asia focused). I might give that a try in the future, but even that takes money to set up and get going. Like I said, nothing is easy.

[CleanSlate]

(05-06-2016 09:50 AM)Little Bo Peep Wrote:  

I don't seriously believe it's possible to make easy money on the internet.

Ah, there it is.

Nobody is saying it's easy to make money on the internet.

I make money doing work online, and so do many others - and I've personally met some forum members who make FAR more than me just doing online work.

But it isn't easy.

I'm not saying this to be a dick, but to be frank, it now seems to me that you only wanted an easy life, and didn't put in the work to learn any marketable skills. Therein lies your problem.

[Fortis]

I imagine making money on the internet is easier than working in rice fields. That's for sure.

[Little Bo Peep]

(05-06-2016 09:58 AM)CleanSlate Wrote:  

I'm not saying this to be a dick, but to be frank, it now seems to me that you only wanted an easy life, and didn't put in the work to learn any marketable skills. Therein lies your problem.

Like I said earlier, I was raised by a single mother/feminist and thus didn't understand the importance of hard work and being a man until… just a couple of years ago, really. You'd be surprised how long this shit takes to figure out when you're all alone.

I've got this memory from my childhood, yeah. I was walking back from school, must've been about 8 years old or something, and I was walking through a park by a river and had to take a piss. I tried walking faster to get home, but I couldn't make it and there weren't any toilets nearby. I pissed my pants.

I seriously didn't understand that men could just flop their cock out and piss wherever they want, because I'd never known any men and hadn't seen that done before. That's what being raised by a feminist does to you. I'm frankly just lucky I didn't end up in prison. Most men raised by feminists end up faring a lot worse me.

Anyway, I piss all over the place now and I know what it is to be a man. Working on the internet isn't easy, we both agree. I'll find a good job in the West when I return in a month, and after that when I come back East I'll definitely consider trying to work online in some way.

[Little Bo Peep]

(05-06-2016 09:59 AM)Fortis Wrote:  

I imagine making money on the internet is easier than working in rice fields. That's for sure.

Well when I married my wife I gained possession of her farming land. It made sense to work it. She had a rice crop and a rubber tree plantation, so that's what I did.

[skptc]

(05-06-2016 10:07 AM)Little Bo Peep Wrote:  

(05-06-2016 09:58 AM)CleanSlate Wrote:  

I'm not saying this to be a dick, but to be frank, it now seems to me that you only wanted an easy life, and didn't put in the work to learn any marketable skills. Therein lies your problem.

Like I said earlier, I was raised by a single mother/feminist and thus didn't understand the importance of hard work and being a man until… just a couple of years ago, really. You'd be surprised how long this shit takes to figure out when you're all alone.

I've got this memory from my childhood, yeah. I was walking back from school, must've been about 8 years old or something, and I was walking through a park by a river and had to take a piss. I tried walking faster to get home, but I couldn't make it and there weren't any toilets nearby. I pissed my pants.

I seriously didn't understand that men could just flop their cock out and piss wherever they want, because I'd never known any men and hadn't seen that done before. That's what being raised by a feminist does to you. I'm frankly just lucky I didn't end up in prison. Most men raised by feminists end up faring a lot worse me.

Anyway, I piss all over the place now and I know what it is to be a man. Working on the internet isn't easy, we both agree. I'll find a good job in the West when I return in a month, and after that when I come back East I'll definitely consider trying to work online in some way.

I really hope you are a troll.

Take responsibility for your life jesus. You need a good slap in the face.

[Little Bo Peep]

Take responsibility for what, exactly?! I do work the best jobs I can find and I do take care of my family. It's not my fault that I was given a shit upbringing and a shit start in life, though.

[262]

^ I had hoped this guy had been banned for being a whiner, but my guess is he's actually been banned for advocating P4P: thread-54699...pid1294905

Not that I have anything wrong with guys being banned for advocating P4P. There are other websites for that.

[ElJefe1]

This doesn't sound remotely close to the Europe I live in atleast coming from America... Which country/countries are you referring to?

[Constitution45]

Yes and no really. In a lot of ways being an expat albeit for just around two years in Russia and China really messed up things for me. My priorities shifted massively, I got used to that adventure of being in an unknown country that was redeveloping itself. On top of that mostly, the whole emphasis on family. Even living in Moscow, I became accustomed to women talking about wanting to start a family before the age of 25 with a man who had purpose in his life. Even my conservative minded friends back in the U.K, didn't really get where I was coming from, whenever I expressed my desire to start a family in the future. But after having a series of girlfriends from this part of the world, and making friends with some of the 'alpha provider' types if I dare use that phrase it started to rub off on me.

Living back in London has its advantages as the job I do is pretty exciting and I really get an edge on life which unfortunately being an expat at the age of 24 years old I wouldn't get. I would have to be extremely fortunate, and I can't submit to office work at this age. But still the culture here just feels completely superficial and alien to me. In terms of career, this city is great to build myself up on. But I am starting to invest to move into EE or another location similar by the time I am in my late twenties for a permanent basis. The old school ex British military officers who bought a house in Southern Italy or some quiet corner of Africa are my inspiration in this case.

Despite the consistent political corruption you get in these other parts of the world. The way in which the U.K is going culturally, seems to be very bizarre for me. There are a lot of red flags which are simply being ignored even though they are blatantly obvious. I rather live in a location that relies on one's own self dependence and reliance, minus the social security than say living in the U.K will give you. As nothing is free in life, the social security you receive here comes at the cost of having all of this politically correct living rammed down your throat. And having to succumb to an androgynous way of living. I am not exaggerating here, you should see what London does to your normal man or woman.

The man turns into a bumbling wreck with premature balding at the age of 25 and a deep self loathing from basing his sexual market value around responses to his tinder profile. Meanwhile the woman becomes a mini Rhianna, wasting her years in a pointless career, posturing as being an aggressive career girl while resenting the males around here for not being able to give her a real masculine touch. Yes there are exceptions, but considering the size and so called 'diversity' of London, you will see these people like the sad caricatures that they really are.

So to answer this question, yes I can defiantly be an expat forever. However I think it is important for one to always be true to themselves and their potential. Some guys are really throwing themselves short becoming expats early on for the pursuit of pussy and being a mini celebrity in some developing country. However our generation has been born into an environment where you don't have many options. You won't be missing a community in a city like London because all of your neighbours will be foreign and might not even speak English. You won't be missing a family, as the women don't want kids or family until they are getting into their 30s. And religion is pretty much out of the window.

However there is always an adventure to be had elsewhere in the world, its up to guys to get back into that empire mentality, of traveling to some distant far reaching part of the globe and colonising it for themselves so to speak.

[Designate]

(05-08-2016 04:20 PM)Constitution45 Wrote:  

Yes and no really. In a lot of ways being an expat albeit for just around two years in Russia and China really messed up things for me. My priorities shifted massively, I got used to that adventure of being in an unknown country that was redeveloping itself. On top of that mostly, the whole emphasis on family. Even living in Moscow, I became accustomed to women talking about wanting to start a family before the age of 25 with a man who had purpose in his life. Even my conservative minded friends back in the U.K, didn't really get where I was coming from, whenever I expressed my desire to start a family in the future. But after having a series of girlfriends from this part of the world, and making friends with some of the 'alpha provider' types if I dare use that phrase it started to rub off on me.

Living back in London has its advantages as the job I do is pretty exciting and I really get an edge on life which unfortunately being an expat at the age of 24 years old I wouldn't get. I would have to be extremely fortunate, and I can't submit to office work at this age. But still the culture here just feels completely superficial and alien to me. In terms of career, this city is great to build myself up on. But I am starting to invest to move into EE or another location similar by the time I am in my late twenties for a permanent basis. The old school ex British military officers who bought a house in Southern Italy or some quiet corner of Africa are my inspiration in this case.

Despite the consistent political corruption you get in these other parts of the world. The way in which the U.K is going culturally, seems to be very bizarre for me. There are a lot of red flags which are simply being ignored even though they are blatantly obvious. I rather live in a location that relies on one's own self dependence and reliance, minus the social security than say living in the U.K will give you. As nothing is free in life, the social security you receive here comes at the cost of having all of this politically correct living rammed down your throat. And having to succumb to an androgynous way of living. I am not exaggerating here, you should see what London does to your normal man or woman.

The man turns into a bumbling wreck with premature balding at the age of 25 and a deep self loathing from basing his sexual market value around responses to his tinder profile. Meanwhile the woman becomes a mini Rhianna, wasting her years in a pointless career, posturing as being an aggressive career girl while resenting the males around here for not being able to give her a real masculine touch. Yes there are exceptions, but considering the size and so called 'diversity' of London, you will see these people like the sad caricatures that they really are.

So to answer this question, yes I can defiantly be an expat forever. However I think it is important for one to always be true to themselves and their potential. Some guys are really throwing themselves short becoming expats early on for the pursuit of pussy and being a mini celebrity in some developing country. However our generation has been born into an environment where you don't have many options. You won't be missing a community in a city like London because all of your neighbours will be foreign and might not even speak English. You won't be missing a family, as the women don't want kids or family until they are getting into their 30s. And religion is pretty much out of the window.

However there is always an adventure to be had elsewhere in the world, its up to guys to get back into that empire mentality, of traveling to some distant far reaching part of the globe and colonising it for themselves so to speak.

Great post +1 from me.

Reminds me of that expression that most people are just chess pieces, jockeying for a better position, and a better role on the squares. Stuck in a systematic rat race that is largely indistinguishable from person to person.

Shifting your mindset back to that empire mentality, you strive for something bigger by playing an entirely different game. You create a new foundation for another system, your own.

[budoslavic]

(04-07-2016 07:37 PM)Brodiaga Wrote:  

(04-07-2016 07:32 PM)samsamsam Wrote:  

(04-07-2016 07:21 PM)Brodiaga Wrote:  

...

Brodiaga, ever plan to get married and have kids? Just curious. You mentioned retiring, and for some reason that question popped in my head. Thanks.

Not in the near future, but I'm open to the idea.

This has entered my mind every now and then ever since I turned 50 a few weeks ago (even though I am not an expat).

My dilemma is where to live or what country to move to if I were to get married and have kids because it is all about setting down roots and raising children in the right environment (i.e., good schools, traditional family values, etc.).

[Travel Museums]

Being an expat is one thing. Constant travel is another. About the most I've seen anyone do is a year.

I'm on 10. Retired at 26. 5 years travel USA. 5 years abroad. Mostly Asia.

I used to think I'd travel forever no problem. I didn't consider the emotional toll. Ive lived in several world cities over the last ten years. It feels like I've hit breaking point. Either I go full sociopath and chuck all feeling out the window or I take some kind of a sabbatical.

Racking up a hundreds of meaningless notches isn't what I thought it would be. It's to the point where I don't want to go out anymore just to bang a girl once. It doesn't excite me. It feels like an unproductive use of my time and resources. The pickup model is so fucking predictable. I get angry with myself and actively undermine my own best interests.

So I got into a bunch of LTR with decent to hot girls in different countries. It's been amazing in the short term. But emotionally devastating in the long term. I spend a few magical months with an awesome woman. Then leave her.

I tried keeping it casual. I came back for visits. That gets about another year. Things eventually become strained. Mostly they think I'll change and settle down. The reality is I still love them. But I'm not going to support them financially. They can't afford my lifestyle. Even if they could, their visa situation is poor compared to my US passport.

Meanwhile this is all going on with multiple women at the same time. That doesn't help. I'd basically have to get rid of all social media. But I can't. It's an ancillary source of income.

These women are lovers, friends, occasionally soulmates. I've turned down several live-in situations and marriage proposals. At 35 I must recognize the reality of my choices in regards to having kids. Unlikely.

My life is so far removed from the reality of my buddies. They can't really relate. They live in NY and LA. They have their style of game on lock. Autopilot game with no pressure on safety, time, money, language, distance, social customs, etc.

Their logistics are permanently solved for years on end. They project stability and effortlessly run Day 3s (or more) to get the lay. Keep a steady harem of fuck buddies on rotation. Not to mention a steady social group and all that benefits.

A lot of guys do this while being expats. I guess that's there is a difference between being an expat and traveler. The latter is a lot more tolerable if your personality is the party guy.

I used to be ok with pub crawls and clubs. But at this point I'm more interested in getting up early for hikes, museums, etc. This makes it a lot harder to get SNL.

I occasionally see posts from other guys who have been on the road for years. Seems there's never been a very good system established to deal with the repercussions. A lot of RVF'ers just say leave every girl you meet. But it does take a toll year after year.

I think there are two ways it doesn't bother a man:

1. You actually don't have sex with many girls. Or didn't get laid much in your 20s. So you're still keen on the game. Lots of young guys on the travel-party circuit fall into this category. Like going to Bangkok to bang as many girls as possible. Or doing a ton of party hostels. Usually this is guys in their 20s to early 30s the big benefit here is youth. No one really questions what you're doing bc it's kinda standard to travel and have fun for guys and girls in that demographic.

2. You're in the 1% of the 1%. You live an expat lifestyle. Speak the language. Have your shit on lock. You get all the benefits of intl arbitrage + the benefits of being a local. Strong social connections. Long term prospects. Etc. essentially you only look like an expat. The country may be xenophobic to never truly accept you but they're not kicking you out after a tourist visa expires.

[Sonoma]

I could not do it. The weather in parts of America beats 90% of the world (I hate humidity), and the job opportunities are much better in the US than abroad. I don't really enjoy looking at a computer screen, so even doing online freelance work doesn't interest me.

I love traveling, but the idea of permanently being in another country sounds lonely and not terribly interesting. A lot of countries have shit infrastructure and are just generally run down, and if I ever was to attempt to make connections with locals, I have a feeling I'd never totally click

[Mr. Nobody From Nowhere]

Working on it after three years in Korea. I came of mental age here so I don't have the same connection to my home as some people might. Going red pill (and just generally achieving a higher plane of awareness and maturity) kinda split my memories of home like oil and water. I love my family and friends and have a lot of fun stories and shit back home but I also see a lot of things in retrospect as being something of a pathetic blue pill drone. I could go back and start an adult life in Canada but it would kinda feel like I'm transplanting myself from my life here in Korea instead of returning home.

Then again, I'm only 27. If I hit some sort of wall down the road my thinking would obviously change. I don't see that happening right now though.

[Suits]

Apparently, this is what living in Japan too long does to you.

No disrespect to the man who created this video, but it's a perfect example of how NOT to be an expat. If you're 40 years old and you are in east or south-east Asian (where the only thing that really matters is being in a position of power) and you're still dependent on other people to hire you and have gained no leverage-able skills that put you in a position of power (to at least a meaningful degree), you've done it wrong.

My existence is fairly low stress (comparatively), because I live somewhere that I can get away with working on tourist visas indefinitely (at least for the time being) and thus am able to be in a position of power as I have a dozen clients, enough that I can drop which ever ones piss me off without meaningfully damaging my income.

Also, by doing so and eliminating the middle men (agents and schools), I earn more money for my time and at least gain a respectable income, which we all know is a great way to justify some inconvenience along the way.

However, this is an imperfect and hardly a long term position. The ideal position to be in as an expat is to own a business that affords you significant freedom. That way you aren't stuck in one location more than you want to be and have far more flexibility in how you organize your lifestyle.

What guys (like the man who created the video above) should have done when they came to Japan at age 25 was start working on revenue earning side gigs and turned one or more into a primary source of income by age 35 at the very latest.

[Travel Museums]

Ugh the Loser English Teacher in Japan. Let's create an acronym (LETiJ). Ive met these guys in Korea too: LETiK. It's painful.

I never imagine this to be what any RVFer is talking about when he uses the term expat. I want to imagine "expat" to be a game aware guy grinding out a personal endeavor like suits said. But that's the exception.

To illustrate my point: these guys corner one 7 and talk all night at intl parties. People have gotten hostile towards me in the Japan thread, but its the truth. This is the default "expat" in East Asia.

They are wholesome and decent guys. They make for reliable friends. They set the competition bar low. But the dynamic makes it awkward.

Working a room with them around made me look like playboy sleezeball. They'd get hostile and shit talk behind my back for opening more than one girl. Even coming over social "hey I haven't met you guys yet!" Was 50/50 at a normal social response. Common guys... It's a party!

My impression was the average expat teacher does ok financially. I've had several of them as roommates. Their biggest issue was getting placed in a school that has a long commute.

I mean, they're not making a ton of money teaching. But they're not MS degreed at a private intl school. So what do they expect? Maybe cover your expenses and save ten grand a year? Great choice for a kid out of college!

Ive met a few expats that go the intl school route. They are the ones with their own two bedroom apt in itaewon. Basically on par with an intl businessman. Weekend vacations to Hong Kong,etc.

I've seen LETiJ date 8s. They'll sweet talk girls for weeks. Text all day. Meet girls for lunch on weekends. Basically do first-fifth date stuff I consider absurd and never agree to. Good for them.

I look like a playboy by comparison. Annoying as fuck. I try to explain to girls that I'm the normal guy. They are actually the losers, which is why they are in Japan grinding it out. They're not just there for pussy, but punching above their weight class is a nice benefit. At home they're an untouchable.

The other default types are the travelers. Usually 20s. Usually backpackers. Most in Japan are on the JR pass riding the train around. They mix less but with Meetup they've discovered the parties are an easy lay.

One huge problem in Asia is smoking/drinking. Becoming any kind of a real businessman seemed like you had to spend a lot of long nights being totally unhealthy hanging out with your coworkers/clients. Not even running game. Dumb karaoke stuff. I could never do it. Totally unsustainable.

I knew one guy in Osaka who was I his 20s with chronic bronchitis and getting his tonsils removed. Pretty much every weekend was wasted recovering. He spoke perfect Japanese and Chinese but he never saw or did anything.

In Shanghai or Beijing you don't even need to smoke. The air quality is so bad. Living there long term is horrendous. I walked around with a 3m mask. I changed it weekly bc it was black with pollution. I wore it maybe half the time!

It took me 3 months to see and do everything in kansai. By the end I was commuting to Nagoya (two hours each way) just to find new things to see and do.

So yeah I think being an "expat for life" comes down to having a solid career or business. But even then there are some huge trade offs relating to health, boredom, etc.