[blurb]

When men say they don't like fat women, men go about it the wrong way and are branded as shallow and immature. Instead, here's an idea to turn the tables and make fat women the shallow ones.

You: I don't date fat women.

Other: That's so shallow!

You: I'm not shallow; in fact, I'm just the opposite. Being fat is unhealthy and is associated with an increased risk in heart disease, cancer, diabetes, stroke, and a host of other illnesses. If a woman does not care about herself, then how do I know if she'll care about me? If she doesn't even put in the effort to make herself healthy, then how do I know if she'll care about my health?

Other: ...

Basically, instead of trying to say you don't like fat women because they're not sexy, go about it in a way to qualify a woman.

[Screwston]

It doesn't matter how u say it blurb. Girls will always say you're shallow and an asshole while they're allowed to have ridiculous standards.

[hypesession]

(07-07-2011 11:10 PM)houston Wrote:  

It doesn't matter how u say it blurb. Girls will always say you're shallow and an asshole while they're allowed to have ridiculous standards.

Ain't that the truth lol

[Mr. Butterworth]

Fat women are funny because they will call you shallow. Yet they are some of the most shallow fuckers on the planet. SHE can be a lard ass but her guy has to be piping hot.

[Excelsior]

The epidemic will always be kept in check by human nature. With humanity, one only has to remember a simple rule that drives interaction: incentives drive behavior.

Men simply do not prefer women with high percentages of body fat. When given a choice, the women who men gravitate most readily to are thinner, and possess lower levels of body fat. This isn't debatable-exceptions to the rule exist, but most men generally want fitter, thinner women.

This means that women who are thinner attract more male attention.

If you understand women, then you'll also understand that male attention is like crack cocaine to a girl, especially a reasonably young one(30 or under). They'll go out of their way to get it, even if they aren't seeking male sexual company specifically. This type of thing drives guys crazy ("tease!", "frikkin attention whore!"), but it is a reality and always will be.

This creates a very powerful incentive for women to try and remain thin. Lower body fat = more male attention, and women value that attention very highly. Incentives drive behavior, which means you will always see women trying to lower their body fat percentage.

You will have a couple of other incentives working as well. Jealousy and intra-sexual competition between women will create further incentive, as women will see thinner women taking most of the elite men they want and will work to outdo them and gain an edge.
Health issues will provide the final incentive needed. Obesity is actually deadlier than smoking in most cases(unless you're some sort of weight lifter/athlete), and no fat acceptance movement will change that.

None of this means that obesity is going to disappear. These incentives all exist right now, and America is still full of obese individuals. What this does mean, however, is that a nightmare scenario in which the vast majority of the populace is obese(not just overweight) and current trends of increasing obesity continue into perpetuity is unlikely.

As long as these incentives exist, there will be fit, thin women and others trying their best to mimic them. Fat/obese women can only cry so much for "acceptance" and "curves" before human biology takes the wheel and sets limits.

[Gmac]

...

[amistod]

Nice infographic! I may have to use that sometime.

[Docter]

(07-08-2011 04:51 AM)Athlone McGinnis Wrote:  

The epidemic will always be kept in check by human nature. With humanity, one only has to remember a simple rule that drives interaction: incentives drive behavior.

Men simply do not prefer women with high percentages of body fat. When given a choice, the women who men gravitate most readily to are thinner, and possess lower levels of body fat. This isn't debatable-exceptions to the rule exist, but most men generally want fitter, thinner women.

This means that women who are thinner attract more male attention.

If you understand women, then you'll also understand that male attention is like crack cocaine to a girl, especially a reasonably young one(30 or under). They'll go out of their way to get it, even if they aren't seeking male sexual company specifically. This type of thing drives guys crazy ("tease!", "frikkin attention whore!"), but it is a reality and always will be.

This creates a very powerful incentive for women to try and remain thin. Lower body fat = more male attention, and women value that attention very highly. Incentives drive behavior, which means you will always see women trying to lower their body fat percentage.

You will have a couple of other incentives working as well. Jealousy and intra-sexual competition between women will create further incentive, as women will see thinner women taking most of the elite men they want and will work to outdo them and gain an edge.
Health issues will provide the final incentive needed. Obesity is actually deadlier than smoking in most cases(unless you're some sort of weight lifter/athlete), and no fat acceptance movement will change that.

None of this means that obesity is going to disappear. These incentives all exist right now, and America is still full of obese individuals. What this does mean, however, is that a nightmare scenario in which the vast majority of the populace is obese(not just overweight) and current trends of increasing obesity continue into perpetuity is unlikely.

As long as these incentives exist, there will be fit, thin women and others trying their best to mimic them. Fat/obese women can only cry so much for "acceptance" and "curves" before human biology takes the wheel and sets limits.

Unless the male population is brainwashed to believe fat women are desirable.

From what I understand, a woman will never realize her overweight, disgusting self is the reason that she fails. The blame falls on men.

Unless you are insinuating this is a general effect that will drive the average women to become thinner over time even when they aren't aware of it. I'd still be skeptical of that.

Furthermore, what's considered "healthy" these days is garbage leading to more weight-loss resistance.

I don't see this changing soon.

[Moma]

(07-07-2011 05:09 PM)blurb Wrote:  

When men say they don't like fat women, men go about it the wrong way and are branded as shallow and immature. Instead, here's an idea to turn the tables and make fat women the shallow ones.

You: I don't date fat women.

Other: That's so shallow!

You: I'm not shallow; in fact, I'm just the opposite. Being fat is unhealthy and is associated with an increased risk in heart disease, cancer, diabetes, stroke, and a host of other illnesses. If a woman does not care about herself, then how do I know if she'll care about me? If she doesn't even put in the effort to make herself healthy, then how do I know if she'll care about my health?

Other: ...

Basically, instead of trying to say you don't like fat women because they're not sexy, go about it in a way to qualify a woman.

When I moved to North America, I banged and dated a few 'fat' women. I found that they had just enough meat that I found attractive..lumps in all the right places.

It was a novelty for me because in the U.K, I often met women that weren't plump enough (I turned down a lizard that was eye fcuking the shyt out of me back in the days because I couldn't imagine fcuking that pile of sticks).
Coming to North America and seeing all these breasts, hips and ass was a Godsend and I pounded out a few with the same reckless abandon as an escaped convict.

However to agree with blurb's statement, I find that there is a lack of discipline associated with a fat person in general. Coupled with the health risks (diabetes, heart conditions), it's a poor bet to even want to be involved with a person like that.

Every 'fat' chick I have dated has only gotten fatter and constantly offered excuses without my asking as they observe how I eat and workout (I hit the gym, play sports and I am extremely meticulous about the foods I consume).

WHAT THE DOCTER SAID:
From what I understand, a woman will never realize her overweight, disgusting self is the reason that she fails. The blame falls on men.

In regards to Docter's statement, overweight women KNOW they are overweight. Human beings delude ourselves in order to make themselves feel better about things they cannot or do not have the willpower to change.
All my overweight female friends will wear something to minimize the look of fat spilling out of their clothes or will undergo some sort of diet or join some type of Jenny Craig camp. If they didn't feel that they were overweight, trying to lose weight wouldn't even cross their mind.
They hope that if they utter the lies long enough, it will change how they feel and think..but it won't..in general.

The base reason that we fcuk lizards is the reproductive urge. When you see a woman and you feel a strong physical attraction to her, that's because deep down in your DNA, you feel that she will produce the best offspring for you.
That's why in GENERAL, men like women with good bodies (small waist to hip ratio, big tits) and women like men with good bodies (strong looking frames, tall).
If you happen to impregnate a lizard, isn't it better that you give your offspring good genes than cruddy ones?

Do you know how miserable genetically fat or unhealthy kids feel when their schoolmates walk around with six packs and chiselled arms while scoffing crisps and coke?
Whereas all fat bastid has to do is sniff a cream puff and he swells up like Mr Michelin?

Give your potential offspring a chance. Stop banging porklettes.

[Basil Ransom]

The delusions of fat women are reaching colossal proportions - see this video. Evil also are the women, like in that video, who promote obesity yet they themselves are skinny. Maybe they're just trying to be 'nice,' but the diminished competition doesn't hurt either.

gmac, truth. I always hear from girls "OMG, you can eat so much without worrying about it." Ok, you try eating mass quantities of meat daily ($$), and lifting 3-5 times a week, and I'll try doing nothing but avoid getting stuffed by your besties Ben and Jerry every night.

(07-08-2011 04:51 AM)Athlone McGinnis Wrote:  

The epidemic will always be kept in check by human nature. With humanity, one only has to remember a simple rule that drives interaction: incentives drive behavior.

Men simply do not prefer women with high percentages of body fat. When given a choice, the women who men gravitate most readily to are thinner, and possess lower levels of body fat. This isn't debatable-exceptions to the rule exist, but most men generally want fitter, thinner women.

This means that women who are thinner attract more male attention.

If you understand women...

I love how your argument is collapsing on itself, into desperately warring factions. I.e.
1. Male attention is like crack cocaine to women.
2. Incentives drive behavior.
3. Men don't fawn over fatties.
And yet... fatties are multiplying, or at least have been.

You seem smart, so get your head out of your ass. You sound like a keyboard jockey.

[Samseau]

(07-08-2011 04:51 AM)Athlone McGinnis Wrote:  

As long as these incentives exist, there will be fit, thin women and others trying their best to mimic them. Fat/obese women can only cry so much for "acceptance" and "curves" before human biology takes the wheel and sets limits.

What do you make of the argument that fat women used to be the more preferred and attractive women in society (back in the 16th century), etc. etc.

[Excelsior]

(07-08-2011 09:36 AM)Docter Wrote:  

Unless the male population is brainwashed to believe fat women are desirable.

Biology just isn't all that malleable. You can certainly increase the number of men who may tolerate an overweight woman, but at the end of the day the preference will still remain. There just aren't very many men who will, if given the choice, pick a woman with high body fat over a thinner, fitter girl.

Some men will tolerate bigger women (you can influence that with the media, shaming, etc) if given few thinner options, but the preference simply can't be washed away. Take those same men and give them a choice between Mo'Nique and Beyonce, and the girl with less fat will almost always win(and even Mo'Nique, a promoter of fat acceptance in black women, has slimmed down some-rhetoric can't outrun reality). Men will always generally prefer fitter girls, and those fitter girls will always get more attention than their fatter peers.

You simply can't circumvent biology-wiggle room is there, but at some point its realities will begin to take hold. This is why all of the current efforts designed to promote "fat acceptance" and other similar goals are self-defeating. Not only do high body fat individuals have lower fertility rates and lower life expectancy, they're also simply not favored by humans socially or romantically. No amount of PC language and media "brainwashing" will change these things. People who adhere to this will a) die younger b) reproduce less and c) lose out socially when put next to fitter people.

The whole movement is pretty much doomed to fail by nature, and there just isn't a way around it. The disease can only spread so far when faced with these immutable truths. The numbers of obese cannot continue to grow into perpetuity.

Quote:

From what I understand, a woman will never realize her overweight, disgusting self is the reason that she fails. The blame falls on men.

Most women do realize this subconsciously. This is the power of female rationalization-the hind brain understands the consequences of her actions (and her weight), but the front of her brain will rationalize this into something that will make her feel better. She knows the truth, but she'll try to avoid speaking it as best she can to protect her emotions.

We in the online game-sphere like to call this the work of "The Rationalization Hamster". In some countries, thanks to the effects of cultural and media influences, rationalization hamsters are stronger than in others (ex: American women probably have the most powerful ones). Regardless, the women do know the truth.

At the end of the day incentives will still drive behavior. Whether she tries to rationalize it away or not, the harsh biological realities of human nature(read: thinner, fitter women hogging the attention of desirable males and obesity's link to infertility and other ailments) will always act as the final arbiters of gender dynamics.

Quote:

Unless you are insinuating this is a general effect that will drive the average women to become thinner over time even when they aren't aware of it. I'd still be skeptical of that.

It will result in a cap on the spread of the disease in my estimation (and there is evidence of this already happening, though some disagree on when the peak will come). Weight loss resistance will remain strong and it may be some time before we begin to see very serious declines (I suspect technology will need to lend a hand for this), but these biological realities will ensure that obesity does not become a norm.

So long as there are incentives to behave to the contrary, there will always remain a sizeable population of thinner, fitter people. That population may not be quite as big as it ought to be due to weight loss resistance, but it can't be entirely eroded.

Quote:

I don't see this changing soon.

In my estimation, there is hope on the horizon.

I predict that the obesity epidemic in the US will peak very soon (in under 15 years) for the following reasons:

1. The biological realities I have outlined earlier will remain in play. Incentives drive behavior, and there is still incentive to keep body fat under control for both sexes. There always will be-this reality is unavoidable for humanity.

2. The epidemic itself exploded in the way it did because of the quick rise of processed foods and hormones to produce them within the last three decades.
A similar increase is statistically improbable, perhaps even impossible in the future. The explosion has already occurred within the last three decades, and the brunt of its impact has already been seen in the massive growth of the obese population. That growth has already slowed, and there is no logical basis for any predicted expansion of a similar magnitude in the future.

Statistically, the worst is behind us. We won't see today's obese population double again in the next three decades because the factors to create that doubling are not going to repeat themselves.

We will plateau soon, and decline must naturally follow.

Now, we are all aware of the problems obesity poses thanks to scientific and federal initiative, which in turn will likely lead to a promotion of healthier foods and eating habits(plus a slightly greater dose of shaming to go with it). There is already evidence of a decline in childhood obesity across the country, and technological advancement will make fighting the disease even easier.

3. The obese will be killed off by infertility and high susceptibility to other ailments(ex. diabetes), further limiting their spread.

[Excelsior]

(07-08-2011 10:20 AM)basilransom Wrote:  

I love how your argument is collapsing on itself, into desperately warring factions. I.e.
1. Male attention is like crack cocaine to women.
2. Incentives drive behavior.
3. Men don't fawn over fatties.
And yet... fatties are multiplying, or at least have been.

You should learn to read a bit more closely.

Here is what I am contending that all of those "factions" will lead to:

(07-08-2011 04:51 AM)Athlone McGinnis Wrote:  

The epidemic will always be kept in check by human nature.

(07-08-2011 04:51 AM)Athlone McGinnis Wrote:  

None of this means that obesity is going to disappear. These incentives all exist right now, and America is still full of obese individuals. What this does mean, however, is that a nightmare scenario in which the vast majority of the populace is obese(not just overweight) and current trends of increasing obesity continue into perpetuity is unlikely.

As long as these incentives exist, there will be fit, thin women and others trying their best to mimic them. Fat/obese women can only cry so much for "acceptance" and "curves" before human biology takes the wheel and sets limits.

If you read my argument carefully, you'd see that I am not implying a sharp coming decline in obesity, nor am I claiming that the obese have not been multiplying in recent decades. Rather, I am stating that the factors I have outlined will result in a plateau, which I believe we will see soon. Fatties HAVE been multiplying, and i know that, but I am contending that we will not continue to see them multiply at anywhere near the same rate into the future. Their growth is quite likely to peak within our lifetimes(I'd contend within the next two decades).

In other words, the growth of obesity will not continue into perpetuity.

[Excelsior]

(07-08-2011 10:22 AM)Samseau Wrote:  

What do you make of the argument that fat women used to be the more preferred and attractive women in society (back in the 16th century), etc. etc.

It is way overblown.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubens

Much of the myth stems from this man's artwork, but there does not seem to be any larger indication of a larger, dominant preference for chunkier women across European high society. Rubenesians were popular and his paintings had a large fanclub, but they can't be used as evidence to claim a wider, long standing predominant preference for bigger women in Europe throughout the 16th, 17th, and 18th centuries. This is another case of historical misrepresentation.

In either case, the large women that Ruben did paint were not obese by today's standards. contemporary "BBWs" are much bigger than this. These are considered modern representations of the Rubinesque figure-it can be attractive in a way that modern obese women simply are not.

Obese women(by the modern standard) have never been a feminine ideal in any notable civilization. Rubinesque is workable for many guys-obese is not.

[Samseau]

As to whether or not fatties will decline because of incentives to reward skinny women:

Sadly, I think you are wrong on this one, Athlone. I wish fatties would get the punishment they deserve, but I see hordes of desperate men hounding fat-fucking nasty shits all the time, so there's no reason for this to improve.


I think what ultimately must happen is what happened in Russia. If enough men get killed in the coming economic dollar collapse, say, 25% or more of the male population, then the women will be forced to compete for the remaining attention and therefore slim down.

Unfortunately I do not think this will happen, so the most reasonable guess is that the current levels of fatness will be similar for quite some time to come.




I know...! Maybe the sexbot revolution will take away enough omega/beta attention from fatties that they will be forced to improve in order to gain attention? Or maybe they will retreat into comfort foods forever.

[Riker]

big women need love too! haha......

[Gmac]

Wow, I didn't realize how short-sighted people were.

Having extra weight a few centuries ago meant that you were wealthy and could afford excess food. It was a sign of status, and wasn't something that was frowned upon by societies because people were not yet health conscious by any means.

You still see this to a certain extent in third world countries. To be overweight meant to be wealthy and/or powerful.

[Samseau]

(07-08-2011 03:55 PM)Gmac Wrote:  

Wow, I didn't realize how short-sighted people were.

Having extra weight a few centuries ago meant that you were wealthy and could afford excess food. It was a sign of status, and wasn't something that was frowned upon by societies because people were not yet health conscious by any means.

You still see this to a certain extent in third world countries. To be overweight meant to be wealthy and/or powerful.

Yes, but the question is "did men find these fat powerful women attractive?"

[Basil Ransom]

Athlone, your assertion is trivial and baseless. Obesity seems to have peaked already anyway. Like any phenomenon with a finite threshold, plateauing is inevitable. Divorce rates, for instance have plateaued if not fallen.

If the drug of male attention was so strong, it would have prevented obesity in the first place. The size and content of our diets has changed for the worse.

It's more noticeable because our peers are getting older, and obesity rates increase with age. And the fattie defenders are getting ever more vocal; el gordos are getting bolder about baring their rolls in public.

(07-08-2011 05:04 PM)Samseau Wrote:  

(07-08-2011 03:55 PM)Gmac Wrote:  

Wow, I didn't realize how short-sighted people were.

Having extra weight a few centuries ago meant that you were wealthy and could afford excess food. It was a sign of status, and wasn't something that was frowned upon by societies because people were not yet health conscious by any means.

You still see this to a certain extent in third world countries. To be overweight meant to be wealthy and/or powerful.

Yes, but the question is "did men find these fat powerful women attractive?"

Considering the history of corsetry, it was probably never in vogue to be fat in recent times, but curvy - bust > waist, hips > waist.

The vast majority of fat chicks are not curvy, they are fat. Christina Hendricks is curvy, Queen Latifah is fat. And even the curvy girls will become plain fat if they put on enough weight.

[Blackhawk]

(07-08-2011 03:55 PM)Gmac Wrote:  

Having extra weight a few centuries ago meant that you were wealthy and could afford excess food.

That false teaching came out in the 1970s and was quickly disproved by actual art historians. Through over 3000 years of artwork starting with Egyptian and Babylonian depictions of the female form the ideal has always been athletic medium build. There are a few outliers like Rubens, but they're balanced by other artists whose ideal was the beanpole woman in the 1920s, or even emaciated looking sickly women on their death beds as was popular in the Victorian Age.

The same group of people were also saying Mae West was an overweight woman who had been popular with the public in the past. Again, such sloppy research they weren't even willing to look up actual pictures of old Mae:



Gluttony has been looked down on as a failure in impulse control since before Plato. In the 14th century it was made one of the seven deadly sins. The athletic ideal body shape comes to us from the Greeks, the same people who invented the Olympics.

Women like Glee's Lauren Zizes are lazy and have no impulse control. The real issue is if you're doing a lot of physical labor, you gotta eat like a peasant with a high carb diet to keep your muscles fueled. But when you're no longer doing that level of labor, you no longer can eat that way without drastically changing your body. When you find obese women, you'll generally find their father was working his ass off at a hard physical job, and under a misguided idea of "fair" everyone at the table was given the same portions as the guy doing drywall hanging and burning through 4000 calories a day at his job.

[Samseau]

I think part of the reason fat shaming isn't that effective is because men are more desperate than women to get sex, so men will lower their standards more than women do.

So men will fuck fatties way before fatties lose their weight.

[Gmac]

Art historians? This isn't about art history, it's about human perception.

Kings and wealthy land owners (and their wives) were always more overweight because of the abundance of food available. This led people to associate a larger girth with wealth and status. It's not rocket surgery. It wasn't just Europe, this was widespread in Asia and Africa too.

I'm not saying people found them necessarily more attractive, but fat people in the past weren't as shamed as they are in today's world because of these differing perceptions.

Again, not saying they were "attractive", but they were still desirable because of their status (which was associated with larger weights).

[Blackhawk]

(07-08-2011 07:05 PM)Gmac Wrote:  

Art historians? This isn't about art history, it's about human perception.

Yet the only visual record we have of people of the past are paintings, tapestries, sculpture and other art. So yes, art historians.

(07-08-2011 07:05 PM)Gmac Wrote:  

Kings and wealthy land owners (and their wives) were always more overweight because of the abundance of food available.

If you're talking about medieval european feudalism, there were three classes of society: The peasants who tilled the land, the clergy, and the military rulers.

The military rulers were on average taller and more muscular, both because they had better nutrition during their development years (more access to meat and dairy), and because they had enough calories to fuel themselves as they trained in arms, combat, horse riding and hunting.

They tried to stay at combat levels of fitness, because part of holding a land title in medieval europe was mandatory military service every year for your Lord or ruler. Being out of shape or bad at fighting gave you a much higher chance of death.

Now there are exceptions like 45 year old Henry VIII who still hadn't had an heir, but when he was younger and won the Battle of the Spurs, the guy was combat fit, not a fattie.

And most of the military elite, as they got too old for combat, would make large donations to a monastery and retire there, taking advantage of the church's neutrality. Or if you were El Cid, several monasteries, and rolling feast to feast in a traveling party while paying additional scribes to write about your fame. Sure he got fat in the end, but only after he retired his sword, took vows, and started to spend all that loot he'd accumulated.

[Excelsior]

(07-08-2011 05:33 PM)basilransom Wrote:  

Athlone, your assertion is trivial and baseless.

My point(that the obesity epidemic will peak and slow soon) is supposedly baseless, and yet you say...

Quote:

Obesity seems to have peaked already anyway.

...that there is in fact a basis for that claim.

Is my argument baseless, or are u mad?

Quote:

If the drug of male attention was so strong, it would have prevented obesity in the first place.

My contention was that male attention was strong enough to limit obesity and prevent its predominance, not wipe the disease out forever or prevent it from existing at all.

The obese will always be around, it is simply a matter of just how many of them there will be.

Quote:

The size and content of our diets has changed for the worse.

Agreed, but there is hope for that as well with new medical and federal initiatives to promote healthier eating and eliminate harmful ingredients in our diet.

This might be behind the recent documented decline in childhood obesity, and I suspect we might see that effect trickle down a little in the coming years to older individuals.

Again, I'm not saying we'll see a massive drop in the next five years or anything, but there is some reason for optimism in the longer term.

Quote:

It's more noticeable because our peers are getting older, and obesity rates increase with age.

That is a good point. In an aging society, obesity rates will naturally increase a bit more.

I do not believe that our next two generations will be quite as large, however, for reasons listed above (healthier food, federal regulation, broadcasting of health issues, infertility, etc).
Like I said, childhood obesity is already on a slight decrease thanks to education and regulation (the government is increasingly treating obesity like smoking). There may be hope for a thinner upcoming generation.

Quote:

And the fattie defenders are getting ever more vocal; el gordos are getting bolder about baring their rolls in public.

Biology will always be there to slap them in the face, regardless of how bold they get.

[Gmac]

(07-08-2011 08:36 PM)Blackhawk Wrote:  

(07-08-2011 07:05 PM)Gmac Wrote:  

Art historians? This isn't about art history, it's about human perception.

Yet the only visual record we have of people of the past are paintings, tapestries, sculpture and other art. So yes, art historians.

(07-08-2011 07:05 PM)Gmac Wrote:  

Kings and wealthy land owners (and their wives) were always more overweight because of the abundance of food available.

If you're talking about medieval european feudalism, there were three classes of society: The peasants who tilled the land, the clergy, and the military rulers.

The military rulers were on average taller and more muscular, both because they had better nutrition during their development years (more access to meat and dairy), and because they had enough calories to fuel themselves as they trained in arms, combat, horse riding and hunting.

They tried to stay at combat levels of fitness, because part of holding a land title in medieval europe was mandatory military service every year for your Lord or ruler. Being out of shape or bad at fighting gave you a much higher chance of death.

Now there are exceptions like 45 year old Henry VIII who still hadn't had an heir, but when he was younger and won the Battle of the Spurs, the guy was combat fit, not a fattie.

And most of the military elite, as they got too old for combat, would make large donations to a monastery and retire there, taking advantage of the church's neutrality. Or if you were El Cid, several monasteries, and rolling feast to feast in a traveling party while paying additional scribes to write about your fame. Sure he got fat in the end, but only after he retired his sword, took vows, and started to spend all that loot he'd accumulated.

Right, because NO ONE could have WRITTEN about rich fat people in the past right? Art is definitely not the only reference or record we have. It doesn't need to be visual for people to understand this basic concept.

I was talking about civilizations in general. The wealthier people were obviously able to eat more. What's so hard to understand about that association?