[RockHard]

(01-25-2016 07:10 PM)General Mayhem Wrote:  

Honestly though, I think some married men get in the habit of "choosing their battles" which begins a painfully slow descent to hell as they continue on choosing less and less of those battles.

Meanwhile, their wives choose their battles too. The only difference is that the wives choose every battle.

Guilty as charged. That'd be in my top 5 life mistakes. Eventually I got to where I would pick battles for the sake of it, and then she'd be confused why I was challenging her on everything. That medicine didn't taste so good to her.

(01-25-2016 11:07 AM)The Black Knight Wrote:  

What really needs to change are divorce laws for sole-provider families and make divorce less punitive for the earner in the family. Makes no sense that a sole-provider is required to provide after the other spouse leaves; the whole "lifestyle they have become accustom to" non-sense standard should be outlawed. A small pre-defined severance to assist with transitioning is reasonable for a long marriage but getting a divorce in America is like going to the hospital without insurance: You know its going to cost a lot but you won't know the cost until you get the bill. This unknown factor scares a lot of sole-providers (mostly men) into acting like pussies.

The leverage the non-earning spouse (typically a woman) has in divorce now is absolutely insane and is anti-family to its core. I will NEVER get married in the US given the current laws. You have to insane, stupid, or naive to do it otherwise.

Agree 100% with Black Knight. Put the "marriage tax" on top and what you realize is that even more insane than getting married is getting married and letting your spouse stay home with the kids (again typically the woman). There are some small benefits to marrying a committed partner: you get some assumptions legally, usually in the case of one partner dying or getting ill - assumed power of attorney (though that's weak in cases like "right to die"), assumed inheritance rights, some automatic deference (like if you go to visit your spouse in the hospital). But overwhelmingly, it's a mechanism for income redistribution from the higher earner to the lower earner, and on top of that, in the US you're penalized by the tax code. Social engineering, anyone?

(01-25-2016 12:21 PM)Moma Wrote:  

Are prenups truly that iron clad?

No. I knew a man who remarried after his first wife died and he had a decent amount of assets (> $1M) so he made her sign a prenup. Too bad he was dealing with an experienced gold digger. She went to work on him, all the tears, emotional manipulations, threatening to leave... he dissolved the prenup. Didn't solve the problem though, she was still a manipulative bitch. I guess he felt he would've been more miserable alone and relatively well off than married and miserable.

A prenup or a divorce decree is only as ironclad as your will to enforce it.

[brick tamland]

(01-25-2016 11:02 AM)Khan Wrote:  

Good points have been made, but I think only Heart Break Kid and Beyond Borders came close to the real reason for this.

Human sexual hierarchy is at play here.

In today's world, women's participation in the workforce coupled with elimination of religious/moral regulations of sexual behavior led to female sexuality being unconstrained and released in its primordial form. Also, in the absence of patriarchal culture our society is largely feminized.

What does this mean for men? Just like during caveman times, the majority of men in today's world are sexually unattractive to women. By and large, women crave for alphas - we all know that. However, the majority of alphas won't even think of settling down and marrying, so your modern woman has to bargain and settle for a provider beta once she hits the wall and starts approaching 30.

This is where the average dude comes into play. He has followed all societal norms which have been taught to him since childhood (be nice, well-mannered, hard-working and the girls will flock to you), yet he never found success with the ladies. Eventually however, he'll find an average girl that likes him and get himself into a LTR or two. Being subconsciously very aware of his status in the sexual marketplace, and brainwashed into thinking that's the right thing to do, he'll end up marrying his girl. And there you have it, your sissified beta husband is born.

However, the worst thing about this is that those guys really have no better alternative. Remember, the vast majority of men will never discover, let alone swallow the red pill. They're completely in the dark, and game is unavailable to them. What are they going to do, sit at home alone and jerk off to porn? They're men, with sexual impulses that have to be satisfied somehow. If it has to be once per month with an ugly wife, then so be it.

As I see it, so many married guys are pussies because they have no other option.

I see this everywhere around me. Average men, who could have fared much better had they invested in self-improvement, shackled to ugly and fat wives. It really terrifies me in a way.

lmpeccable.

[C-Note]

Check out Rollo Tomassi's blog, as exploring this theme is the main topic of his essays. In short, men are the true romantics and make the mistake of projecting their perspective on relationships onto their women. I.e. men think that if they faithfully perform as a provider, comforter, and loyal partner that women will appreciate it and reciprocate in kind. When women don't reciprocate in kind, men think it's because they (the men) aren't trying, communicating, listening, or being sensitive enough and they need to try harder.

Mr. Tomassi used to participate in this forum and at RoK at times but was treated rather rudely by other forum members for reasons I don't understand.

[John Michael Kane]

(01-27-2016 10:02 AM)EDantes Wrote:  

(01-26-2016 03:16 PM)John Michael Kane Wrote:  

To add what Vincent mentioned above...

Keep in mind that many, many young men never had a proper alpha male role model that taught them how to become a strong man.

I don't think it takes till a man's 30's to become a mature, strong man---if he has a proper mentor.

With so many fatherless households and weak men not teaching their sons proper lessons they themselves don't know, mens' natural maturity process is drawn out artificially. There's no reason why a man can't be aware of the strengths and weaknesses of women and how to deal with them in a LTR or marriage by the time his is in his 20's. It comes back to male leadership, and mentoring from a young age. Why wait till you're older and learned from the school of hard knocks? Men get scarred too. As men who "get it", the best thing we can do is mentor other men younger than us, so that way they don't have to learn from harsh experiences.

Truth be told - I didn't have a male role model growing up - but even from a young age I'd see all of the beta behavior in other men, and I just knew that it was wrong in some way, I knew there was something better out there than that even if I didn't have a man to model myself after

Some men have a stronger sense of social cues and behaviors than others. Simply put, most men aren't that observant without some level of training by a man who has been there, and done that.

[EDantes]

(01-27-2016 04:05 PM)John Michael Kane Wrote:  

(01-27-2016 10:02 AM)EDantes Wrote:  

(01-26-2016 03:16 PM)John Michael Kane Wrote:  

To add what Vincent mentioned above...

Keep in mind that many, many young men never had a proper alpha male role model that taught them how to become a strong man.

I don't think it takes till a man's 30's to become a mature, strong man---if he has a proper mentor.

With so many fatherless households and weak men not teaching their sons proper lessons they themselves don't know, mens' natural maturity process is drawn out artificially. There's no reason why a man can't be aware of the strengths and weaknesses of women and how to deal with them in a LTR or marriage by the time his is in his 20's. It comes back to male leadership, and mentoring from a young age. Why wait till you're older and learned from the school of hard knocks? Men get scarred too. As men who "get it", the best thing we can do is mentor other men younger than us, so that way they don't have to learn from harsh experiences.

Truth be told - I didn't have a male role model growing up - but even from a young age I'd see all of the beta behavior in other men, and I just knew that it was wrong in some way, I knew there was something better out there than that even if I didn't have a man to model myself after

Some men have a stronger sense of social cues and behaviors than others. Simply put, most men aren't that observant without some level of training by a man who has been there, and done that.

I think it's like a lion growing up in a zoo cage; even if it's never even been in the jungle, it's instinct just knows it's not in it's natural habitat.

Unfortunately if you took many a lion out of the zoo as an adult and plopped it back into the jungle, it wouldn't be able to survive there due to having been sheltered and pampered all its life.

So the lion in the zoo is essentally the equivalent of the modern, suburbanized beta male.

[EDantes]

(01-25-2016 11:02 AM)Khan Wrote:  

What does this mean for men? Just like during caveman times, the majority of men in today's world are sexually unattractive to women. By and large, women crave for alphas - we all know that. However, the majority of alphas won't even think of settling down and marrying, so your modern woman has to bargain and settle for a provider beta once she hits the wall and starts approaching 30.

What's interesting is that monogamy was invented almost as a type of 'redistribution' by the Catholic Church as a way to prevent the highest status men from taking all of the women. (The Bible also never says polygamy is wrong, in fact Solomon and Jobs wives were described as a blessing from God).

What's unfortunate is that polygamy from what I can tell is the natural state of men, and in reality most women won't care if a high status alpha man has other partners as long as he's emotionally supportive of her; a woman would rather be 'cheated' on by an alpha than married to a beta.

So other than people capable of true self denial, I really think the ideal state for an alpha man is to eventually have multiple, steady female partners; the idea of living 'happily ever after' with just one partner is an invention of Disney movies.

[Khan]

EDantes Wrote:

What's interesting is that monogamy was invented almost as a type of 'redistribution' by the Catholic Church as a way to prevent the highest status men from taking all of the women. (The Bible also never says polygamy is wrong, in fact Solomon and Jobs wives were described as a blessing from God).

I wouldn't say monogamy is an invention of the Church. Monogamy is the core element of any civilized society, it developed as soon as agriculture was developed by man and first civilizations arose. This brings us to the 'chicken or the egg' question - did monogamy serve as a catalyst for the development of civilization, or was it vice versa?

EDantes Wrote:

What's unfortunate is that polygamy from what I can tell is the natural state of men, and in reality most women won't care if a high status alpha man has other partners as long as he's emotionally supportive of her; a woman would rather be 'cheated' on by an alpha than married to a beta.

So other than people capable of true self denial, I really think the ideal state for an alpha man is to eventually have multiple, steady female partners; the idea of living 'happily ever after' with just one partner is an invention of Disney movies.

Yes, but I wouldn't say that polygamy is the natural state of all men, but rather only the top 30 or 40%; i.e. alphas and higher betas. Studies of human DNA confirm this: throughout human history, only about 40% of men managed to reproduce.

[John Michael Kane]

Monogamy is a healthy way to keep betas productive and invested in society instead of having alpha man harems and constant conflict. You could call it a sort of sexual redistribution. That being said, the goal of any society which is healthy is to teach betas some alpha traits, that way a larger percentage of betas have both beta AND alpha traits. A combo of which, is very attractive to the average woman, in the absence of the artificial Beta State Husband Government Handout.

[GlobalMan]

They're losers because they're losers, not because they're married. Implying marriage caused it is ignorant. Those men were weak before they got married.

The weak frame, poor actions you describe many men taking these days is whats going on in society in general. All of those things you describe happen outside of marriage, so of course they do in it as well.

Getting married doesn't turn a man into something different, it only tests and lays bare what he already is.

[Thoroughbred]

Anti Trace's thoughts on this I found pretty lucid.

As I roll this around my head it's pretty sobering to realise how much I've changed.

If I was married, and came home to this news, I'd get some evidence of the transgression, for insurance, and then change the scenario American Beauty style, along the lines of: Let's stay married, keep the house with both of us and the kids in it, and not do that whole clusterfuck.
I'm going to do my thing, whatever that is, date , see other women, or not, you do the same.
I'd get a flat to keep some bachelor shit separate, but still put in a good appearance around the house.
Keep the kids out of it as much as possible, and keep on keeping on.

I just don't care anymore, I've detached my ego, my self worth and any notions of "my performance" from what the women in my life do or do not do. Women will be women, you can trust them to do that. Hopefully you get one that's adverse to this shit, if you don't? Ahh well.

We're married and you fucked someone else? Well that's inconvenient, we've got all this shit and these kids. Don't ask me what I'm doing or where I'm going ever again, show me the std lab results before you get in bed with me and I'll see ya round the house sometime.

[RatInTheWoods]

(01-25-2016 07:10 PM)General Mayhem Wrote:  

No. I knew a man who remarried after his first wife died and he had a decent amount of assets (> $1M) so he made her sign a prenup. Too bad he was dealing with an experienced gold digger. She went to work on him, all the tears, emotional manipulations, threatening to leave... he dissolved the prenup. Didn't solve the problem though, she was still a manipulative bitch. I guess he felt he would've been more miserable alone and relatively well off than married and miserable.

A prenup or a divorce decree is only as ironclad as your will to enforce it.

In Australia we call them "binding financial agreements" and they don't hold water.

Judges just overrule and ignore them.

There is a huge industry in striping men of their assets and splitting it in between the lawyers and the person with tits. They are not going to let you opt out of that cash cow with a contract/prenup etc. Way too much at stake.

I always wondered who would get all the cash if lesibains divorced? With two pairs of tits, how would the judge know who to give all the money to?

[XPQ22]

It's not really my experience with married guys.

In my experience, most marriages that have "stood the test of time" (and LTRs as well) fall into two camps - successful men who have a lot going for them happily married to successful women who have a lot going for them, and loser men married to loser women in wackadoo marriages full of conflict where they keep on with each other because it's the only thing they know.

Marriages that are just "meh" don't seem to last very long. "Beta Bucks" marriages often fall into this camp, or evolve into the final type.

Sounds like these experiences fall into the latter two camps. These guys weren't pussified by marriage, they were pussies going in and never changed.

I know a guy in his early 60s who was married for 30 years - he's certainly not a pussy, and if you ask him if he regretted at all being married all those years he'll look at you like you're crazy. His wife got cancer and she died with him holding her hand. What did he do then?

He took time to grieve, and then got back in the game. I think he's dating a pretty sweet 40-something hairdresser these days.

[N°6]

I don't judge married men as I have never been married.

I have wondered how much the threat of alimony, financial ruin, having one's children abducted causes a husband to become the submissive simp walking on egg shells.

No-fault divorce must be like living under the Sword of Damocles.

[Akula]

(01-25-2016 11:02 AM)Khan Wrote:  

What does this mean for men? Just like during caveman times, the majority of men in today's world are sexually unattractive to women.

Well I wouldn't put it that way - it's more like there is such a clear lack of suitable young, well-intentioned, in-shape, motivated prospective loving mothers in the Anglosphere that the average guy with little game simply has not choice but to settle for an unsuitable wife & mother of his children. Most modern "liberated" Western women simply don't deserve a good man - they are overconfident, entitled, fat, lazy spoiled princesses who add ZERO value to a man's life other than being the mother of his children (and even then they mostly fuck it up as many are also slutty carousel-riders who spent their prime biological childbearing years banging unattainable guys who never considered them as "partners").

And unfortunately, society sends such horrible mixed-signals and bad advice to women in their prime child-bearing years that many of them simply confuse their priorities and wait until it's too late.

(01-30-2016 06:23 AM)N°6 Wrote:  

I don't judge married men as I have never been married.

I have wondered how much the threat of alimony, financial ruin, having one's children abducted causes a husband to become the submissive simp walking on egg shells.

No-fault divorce must be like living under the Sword of Damocles.

Yep. But the power to have a legacy and be a father is so primordial and strong that most men still want to do it even despite the bad deal marriage and divorce laws have become and the horrible options & lack of suitable wives we now have in the West. I think this is also a big part of how many "good guys" turn into pussies as their marriages go on - they basically are "doing it for the children" + as you said the repercussions of a breakup are too draconian to contemplate.

I know countless guys like this. But even so, many of them eventually break and just say "enough" after it slowly dawns on them what a bad deal they've been given and how miserable they are (even if they willingly accepted it early on - they know they made their own bed and have to lay in it, but at some point "enough is enough" and they will do anything to get away from a manipulative woman). It might take 5,10 even 15 to 20 years but eventually it happens.

[Stimulus]

(01-29-2016 05:40 PM)RatInTheWoods Wrote:  

I always wondered who would get all the cash if lesibains divorced? With two pairs of tits, how would the judge know who to give all the money to?

[Cobra]

EDantes/OP, you started another thread similar to this one. Not to mention the 100 posts (including other random non value added threads) in the matter of a few days that has already been mentioned by other members.

I had some questions in that thread for you that are relevant to this one too. Can you please oblige me and answer them? I don't want to lose track.
thread-53352...pid1205422

[Sidney Crosby]

Divorce rape

/thread

[muscless]

We all know western women are the lowest quality women in the world hence why betas marry them!

Remember betas rarely get sex so they basically take any girl that shows interest in them. They also fall in love so easy!

70% chance of divorce if you marry a western woman
80-90% of divorces in the west are by the woman
90% of men get raped in the family court afterwards
80% of sucidals are men where 3/5 are due to relationship breakups/divorce

If you had a 80-90% chance of your parachute not opening, would you go sky diving?

[TheNookieMonster]

Marriage and children sap your testosterone levels. That's my hypothesis.

I'm married and definitely noticed the effects of low T when my wife was pregnant with our first. Now that we have another one on the way, I'm being pro-active about keeping T levels up; I'm banging other chicks.

[rainy]

I know plenty of married men who are still alpha, still strong, the head of the household types who haven't been made into a bitch.

I frankly think it just depends on the man. If you're true alpha when dating and the woman you end up marrying is/was attracted to that, for the most part I don't think the guy changes all that much. But if you're beta when dating or beta in general, the woman will usually have more control both when dating and after you tie the knot.

Do I think some of the younger guys getting married, say late 20s and early 30s who trend towards being pussy whipped, are more common than the 40+ generation? Indeed I do. But I don't think that's due to marriage so much as a generation full of pussies, lacking father figures who don't know what hard work or real men are, ultimately getting married. These women know many of these guys are pussies so they had control and had them eating out of their hands before they ever got hitched.

I think it's also who you're surrounded by. As a former athlete and personal trainer, I knew a number of alpha guys who ran the show. Women respect that. Now working in IT I'm surrounded by betas with little to no social skills, let alone the ability to game.

But when I look at my father who was alpha through and through, and most of his friends who were the same whether they're in their 40s, 50s or 60s, marriage didn't negate their masculinity. That's because of how they were raised, just who they are. Given the pussification of modern culture, it's no wonder there's more guys who lack basic masculinity who let their GFs or wives run the show. That's however due to who they were and are before marriage, not marriage itself.

I've spent far too much time with the older generations of alphas or in Eastern Europe where men are still men to blame marriage for it. If marriage changes who you are for the worse and chips away at your manhood, you weren't much of a man in the first place as women deep down want a leader, want to be protected, want to be provided for, want their stone, want their lion, and if you offer that type of personality from the start, no problems. That all happens during dating though, true alphas make clear their intentions and whatever role they'll have from the start. It's like anything in life, some are natural leaders, others natural followers. You naturally fill your role.

[Cobra]

@the newbies

Breath a bit guys!

Betas, testosterone and Europe.

I'm frankly getting a bit annoyed by the "marriage sucks" posts by those that are not married and supposedly "seeing" men pussified through marriage. The view is extremely singular and one dimensional in the manosphere.

This is a game forum. First hand accounts would be nice whether it worked out or not. We ask for it in other game threads but in "marriage" threads we're willing to entertain second hand opinions. I don't get it.

Basically, we have guys providing opinions without having gone through the responsibility or struggle of raising a family and keeping a wife happy.

There are many guys here that can do approaches and get a girl into bed. It's either just as difficult if not much more to keep a home active with a happy wife and kids, especially if that wife works a full-time job just like you. A different kind of leadership and collaboration are required there; one that many here will find difficult to appreciate as of yet.

[Easy_Mode]

I was married. I turned into a pussy due to fear of child support payments. Also, got out of shape, so then I really wasn't able to pull hot girls. Rather jerk off, than bang an ugly chick. Then, for whatever I went on about a 6 months period of working out, and eating a shitload of chicken. Lost 45 lbs, gained a lot of mass. It was incredibly easy to get women. I told the bitch to pack her shit I'm done. I'll pay the child support.

So, for me it was a combination. Child support, losing my son, and really not knowing how to pick up women. Life was less dramatic back then, but I also had a boring life.

[mammal]

Fear of the alternative:
1) losing 1/3 of his money to his wife,1/3 to lawyers,never seeing his kids again.
2) Has been too long out of the dating market, no dating skills.
3) Lousy marriage has made himmistrustful of women, doesn't think the alternative is better.
4) Social isolation: since marrying, hiswife has become his"best" and only friend and is afraid of losing her.
5) She's crazy/psycho and he's learned that it's notworth it to confront her.

[doc holliday]

(02-08-2016 11:36 PM)Cobra Wrote:  

@the newbies

Breath a bit guys!

Betas, testosterone and Europe.

I'm frankly getting a bit annoyed by the "marriage sucks" posts by those that are not married and supposedly "seeing" men pussified through marriage. The view is extremely singular and one dimensional in the manosphere.

This is a game forum. First hand accounts would be nice whether it worked out or not. We ask for it in other game threads but in "marriage" threads we're willing to entertain second hand opinions. I don't get it.

Basically, we have guys providing opinions without having gone through the responsibility or struggle of raising a family and keeping a wife happy.

There are many guys here that can do approaches and get a girl into bed. It's either just as difficult if not much more to keep a home active with a happy wife and kids, especially if that wife works a full-time job just like you. A different kind of leadership and collaboration are required there; one that many here will find difficult to appreciate as of yet.

Well I think a lot of guys think being married is beta and automatically makes you a pussy. It's not. Like you said, being responsible for kids you've brought into this world isn't easy nor is financially providing for a family. It takes cohones to do it and I've said it before, most single guys today are pussies who wouldn't be able to handle it. That's one place I agree with a lot of women who say this shit to me all the time.

That said, I do thing a lot of married guys have given their wives their testicles to store away. The draconian family laws have made it so that women have nothing to lose and married men everything so these guys are in fear of their shadows (I know quite a few guys like this unfortunately). The culture is also such that women are encouraged to act like men and be the boss while the man stays home and does "women's work". Modern day marriage has become the ultimate emasculator.

Having been married for 19 years and now going through a nasty divorce, I rebelled hard against the notion of modern day marriage for the entire 19 years. Eventually she got tired of it and pulled the plug. So even though I acted "alpha" for lack of a better term in my marriage, it still failed. I don't like seeing pussified husbands but it is the reality in America today due to the laws and the culture. Single guys aren't much better. The women? Well we know what train wrecks most of these bitches are married or single.

[BassPlayaYo]

I think the biggest mistake men make with regards to marriage is that they do not fully and objectively read the contract before signing on the dotted line. In this day and age, in the USA, marriage is not a contract that is in the best interest of a man but every day men are signing on the dotted line.