[Dr. Howard]

I've been watching a documentary series on netflix called "making a murderer". I started watching it because its set in Wisconsin, I otherwise wouldn't have been interested as the cover is retarded and it seems to be sold as another 'serial killer documentary' as opposed to what it really is.

This series erases any faith that I had in the justice system, especially more for me because I've been in the same room with, seen in hearings, some of the state officials and defense lawyers shown in it. I had multiple, 'holy shit, I know who that guy is' moments while watching it.

I don't want too give much away to it, but its done in such a way that you can see the events unfold without being spoon fed it like propaganda by the filmmakers. Its unchecked government employees in the justice system at their worst.

[Foolsgo1d]

Is it something to do with turning what could be normal people into savages? Don't have access to Netflix.

[Dr. Howard]

(01-02-2016 12:10 PM)Foolsgo1d Wrote:  

Is it something to do with turning what could be normal people into savages? Don't have access to Netflix.

I'll PM you in case my description is borderline spoilerish.

[PapayaTapper]

Quote:

Doctor Howard
I don't want too give much away to it, but its done in such a way that you can see the events unfold without being spoon fed it like propaganda by the filmmakers. Its unchecked government employees in the justice system at their worst.

Just watched the first couple of episodes. It is very well done and the story is an eye opener

[dicknixon72]

The criminal justice system should really be nested under the Internal Revenue Service as that is its sole purpose - to generate revenue for the state and federal government as well as private contractors and companies that handle the 'administrative' aspects - probation, running of prisons, collection of fines, etc.

[la bodhisattva]

I found it to be an very interesting documentary. However, like so many other documentations on misjustice (film, books, etc), there was too much left out that I begin to second guess why I second guessed in the first place.

Make no mistake, that county's sheriff's department seems rife with grade-A assholes who wanted to railroad the Avery family at almost any cost. And make no mistake, most of the Avery clan appeared to bring most of their problems on themselves.

The posters here are erudite enough that I don't need to encourage anyone do extra research on the case to get a more complete picture, but damn, the evidence left out will leave you scratching your head as much at the filmmakers as you were at the prosecution while you were watching.

[samsamsam]

I have not watched it but la bodhisattva mentions what the fimmakers left out will make you scratch your head.

Documentaries used to be unbiased but I recall watching the director's commentary of "Waiting For Superman" and the director said he did have a point to make, so he wasn't unbiased.

A lot of documentaries are like that now. Plus, shock and awe helps drive sales. I don't think it is unrelated that over the last few years documentaries have become more accepted and more profitable it is because they are driven to include some entertainment in addition to information.

[la bodhisattva]

In most cases throughout the ten episodes, people will say about the prosecution, "Why would they say X? Do X? Ignore X? Disregard X?"

I recommend anyone read May God have Mercy. It's a book written by a checklist liberal about a halfwit hillbilly jailed for the supposed rape and murder of his sister-in-law. Again, while I read it I began to have serious misgivings about the American court system. The ultimate conclusion was years after publication was interesting.

Minor spoiler



























Steven Avery poured gasoline on a cat and threw it in a bonfire. The doc details the incident this way,

Steven Avery: Yeah, I got in dum trouble growin' dup. Did some toopid tings. Hangin' out wit da ong people. Yeah, one time we was partyin' and we'd took da cat un poured tum oil on it and darew it on da fire and it lit up da'ittle bit.

That's as far was the filmmakers chose to take this incident. However, he doused the cat, burned it alive, and was imprisoned 18 months (I think) for animal cruelty.

The guy may not be a murderer, but you can tell a lot about a person by the way they treat animals, especially a household pet.

[Hotwheels]

The cops in this documentary are just like every small town cop I have met during my lifetime in WI.

Now you know why I really don't like cops.

I have no real idea if Avery did it or not. Guilty or not, the actions of the cops were reprehensible.

[Vaun]

(01-02-2016 06:17 PM)samsamsam Wrote:  

Documentaries used to be unbiased but I recall watching the director's commentary of "Waiting For Superman" and the director said he did have a point to make, so he wasn't unbiased.

A lot of documentaries are like that now. Plus, shock and awe helps drive sales. I don't think it is unrelated that over the last few years documentaries have become more accepted and more profitable it is because they are driven to include some entertainment in addition to information.

Thats been the criticism of the series, and what I have heard in the press. But its a stretch to say "documentaries used to be unbiased". The majority of the most popular doc's were created when the filmmaker had a bias, or a certain story to tell. Micheal Moore and Morgan Spurlock are obvious examples.

The midwest is full of these small town fiefdoms. Unemployment, low-education levels, poor economies in the rust belt where manufacturing fled decades ago. Its a truly bleak place, the Siberia of the US. Now its full of heroin, oxy and meth, there is literally no reason to live there, other than the cheapest real estate in the US. For good reason. Its a free for all.

[ElFlaco]

Dr. Howard - Thanks for recommending this documentary series. I'm halfway through. So far I'm reminded that:

1. Some people in American law enforcement and the criminal justice have a callous disregard for justice. Bordeline psychopaths.

2. The gap in competence between public defenders and private attorneys is vast.

3. Really stupid people (70 IQ) think and function very differently than the rest of us. Exhibit A: the mother and her teenage son, struggling to guess the meaning of the word "inconsistent".

[MrLemon]

I'm as patriotic as the next guy but, the US justice system is in collapse.

You will not get a trial. There are no trials.
There is no privacy. Every stupid sheriff's deputy, in thousands of counties across America, can look at your medical history and see every drug you ever took.
You will not get a defense attorney unless you have a house to mortgage, if then.
The police can and will simply take your money, your car, just to fund their pension plan. You can do nothing.

These trends are speeding up, not slowing down.

[CleanSlate]

Just finished the 3rd episode. It was amazing how they pushed Brendan around and put their own words in his mouth for his statements.

Disgusting.

That reminds me, NEVER ever talk to the police without a lawyer. Ever.

[Anabasis to Desta]

The American justice system is dog-shit.

Back in college me and 2 of my frat bros spent a night in jail for "public intoxication". Not only did they cuff our arms behind our backs, they also chained our legs together like child rapists while processing our paperwork. Never felt so dehumanized.

Can't imagine how dudes alleged with more serious crimes are treated. Ever since I've felt some sort of schadenfreude whenever i hear of cops dying in line of duty.

Fuck 'em.

[MasterBacja]

What I think is hilarious is that the people on social media I see talking about wanting a full pardon for this dude after seeing the documentary (without any consideration to the implications of that) are frequently the same people who are commenting on how Bill Cosby is guilty and how it's ridiculous he isn't already just locked up for his crimes.

The irony, predictably, is lost.

[Dr. Howard]

(01-02-2016 04:51 PM)la bodhisattva Wrote:  

I found it to be an very interesting documentary. However, like so many other documentations on misjustice (film, books, etc), there was too much left out that I begin to second guess why I second guessed in the first place.

Make no mistake, that county's sheriff's department seems rife with grade-A assholes who wanted to railroad the Avery family at almost any cost. And make no mistake, most of the Avery clan appeared to bring most of their problems on themselves.

The posters here are erudite enough that I don't need to encourage anyone do extra research on the case to get a more complete picture, but damn, the evidence left out will leave you scratching your head as much at the filmmakers as you were at the prosecution while you were watching.

You've got to elaborate on this one for me. This family struck me as your typical wisconsin rural bottom of the barrel family with legacy polish accents.

There did seem to be a very intense disdain in the community for the family though, and the fact that the whole clan seemed to live and work down some backwater road that bore their family name reminded me of the "Black Donnelys" of Canada. just because the Donnelys were criminals themselves, that didn't justify a mob burning their home to the ground and shooting every man woman and child that stepped out of the house fleeing the fire.

I totally agree with MasterBacja's post though, as much as I believe in this guy and his nephew's innocence he's got to be exonerated in the justice system (the justice system does include the option for presidential pardon though, not presidential execution...well not explicitly)

[Vaun]

(01-04-2016 08:27 AM)Dr. Howard Wrote:  

(01-02-2016 04:51 PM)la bodhisattva Wrote:  

Make no mistake, that county's sheriff's department seems rife with grade-A assholes who wanted to railroad the Avery family at almost any cost. And make no mistake, most of the Avery clan appeared to bring most of their problems on themselves.

There did seem to be a very intense disdain in the community for the family though, and the fact that the whole clan seemed to live and work down some backwater road that bore their family name reminded me of the "Black Donnelys" of Canada. just because the Donnelys were criminals themselves, that didn't justify a mob burning their home to the ground and shooting every man woman and child that stepped out of the house fleeing the fire.

Spent the majority of the weekend watching it. Have a few episodes left I am watching tonight.

While I agree Dr. Howard, I see some validity in la bodhisattva's post. What struck me most of all about the Avery's was their sad tragic naiveté about the American justice system. I'm convinced it got as far as it did because they never hired a real lawyer from the start, for both Stephen and Brendan. And how that idiot mother allowed Brendan to be bullied by the cops and his smarmy lawyer. I can't imagine doing everything humanly possible to not allow my kid to go through that type of aggressive interrogation, even if I didn't have a dollar in pocket. Every time the mom would get on the phone and start talking, she just looked more and more like a helpless idiot, it really got on my nerves. And the way the kid would say, "I can't do it, I'm stupid mom, remember?", that just made my stomach turn. That kid probably grew up surrounded by real losers telling him that his whole short life.

I do completely agree though that regardless of someones IQ level, they should be able to exist in harmony with the rest of society, especially if they are responsibly taking care of themselves. It looks like the Avery's retreated back into their little self contained world and were not harming anyone.

[Dr. Howard]

(01-04-2016 09:01 AM)Vaun Wrote:  

(01-04-2016 08:27 AM)Dr. Howard Wrote:  

(01-02-2016 04:51 PM)la bodhisattva Wrote:  

Make no mistake, that county's sheriff's department seems rife with grade-A assholes who wanted to railroad the Avery family at almost any cost. And make no mistake, most of the Avery clan appeared to bring most of their problems on themselves.

There did seem to be a very intense disdain in the community for the family though, and the fact that the whole clan seemed to live and work down some backwater road that bore their family name reminded me of the "Black Donnelys" of Canada. just because the Donnelys were criminals themselves, that didn't justify a mob burning their home to the ground and shooting every man woman and child that stepped out of the house fleeing the fire.

Spent the majority of the weekend watching it. Have a few episodes left I am watching tonight.

While I agree Dr. Howard, I see some validity in la bodhisattva's post. What struck me most of all about the Avery's was their sad tragic naiveté about the American justice system. I'm convinced it got as far as it did because they never hired a real lawyer from the start, for both Stephen and Brendan. And how that idiot mother allowed Brendan to be bullied by the cops and his smarmy lawyer. I can't imagine doing everything humanly possible to not allow my kid to go through that type of aggressive interrogation, even if I didn't have a dollar in pocket. Every time the mom would get on the phone and start talking, she just looked more and more like a helpless idiot, it really got on my nerves. And the way the kid would say, "I can't do it, I'm stupid mom, remember?", that just made my stomach turn. That kid probably grew up surrounded by real losers telling him that his whole short life.

I do completely agree though that regardless of someones IQ level, they should be able to exist in harmony with the rest of society, especially if they are responsibly taking care of themselves. It looks like the Avery's retreated back into their little self contained world and were not harming anyone.

But I think that Naivete is widespread, well beyond lower class folks. People talk to the police without a lawyer all of the time, and even then alot of those lawyers...especially public defenders are crap at their job.

When I was getting divorced I went through 3 lawyers before I found a good one that I didn't have to babysit and ask for explanations of how things related to statute. The other 2 just wanted to write letters back and forth with the opposing counsel and were non-experts in law, just paper pushers looking to charge a bunch of money to be a secretary re-typing my thoughts.

[Hotwheels]

[not_dead_yet]

****SPOILER FOLLOWS****

Anybody else have a chuckle at how that woman ditched her dying husband for the convicted*** murderer?

*** - Pretty obvious he's innocent.

[la bodhisattva]

Dr Howard,

I assume you mean for me to elaborate on why I felt the Avery family brought a lot of their problems on themselves?

I'm not suggesting that Steven Avery killed the woman, but I am saying that throughout the 10 episodes, the Avery family (their insular existence, atrocious education levels, and operating a salvage yard notwithstanding) displayed behaviors that would make them logical culprits for wrongdoing within the community. Hell, as shallow as it is, their dress for court proceedings just made me suspicious.

I grew up in a smaller county than Manitowoc, and certain families carried certain reputations. They were usually crass and boorish and ultimately stupidly aggressive in their behavior. Some of these families were not necessarily living criminal lives, but they would often be associated with people with nefarious pasts. When you have a bottom of a hollow populated with five trailers housing an entire extended family, and that bottom often has some shady things going on, not always criminal, but those strange parties with large fires, moonshine, and party goers ranging from 13-65 years old, it would come under the microscope of local law enforcement. Now imagine that family has an uncle who burned a cat alive and served over a year for animal cruelty. Another uncle has been locked up for a view legit domestic disputes. An aunt with three kids by three different men is always causing trouble with school administrators because her children wreck havoc in school because they have no home structure. And those kids getting in constant fights at school. This hypothetical family is a bane on the community. If some shady shit went down within that community that included a "poorly" thought out and planned murder, a shady group of people would naturally be on the cops' radar.

I believe Dassey's mother's, distressed though she was, screaming that the family of the victim planned the whole thing to be quite telling.

[porscheguy]

No doubt they're white trash. It just seems way too convenient that this girl ended up dead on his property at a point when he was about to get a payday for his past troubles. Plus this girl had been there numerous times before and presumably without incident. And then there's the fact that authorities barred them from their property for 8 days while they conducted an investigation, at which time, God only knows what they could have done there.

They're white trash outcasts, but that doesn't mean they're murderers. And we all know that hell hath no fury like law enforcement scorned.

[Sam Malone]

Just finished watching the fifth episode last night. Ended with the cop calling in the plate number (of a car he wasn't looking at).

Wow !!!

On a side note, I showed my oldest (12) the scene where the nephew (Brendon ?) Is being interrogated/coerced by law enforcement. And reinforced that, if he's ever in a situation like that (including school), he's not to say anything until he talks to me first.

[porscheguy]

(01-05-2016 09:35 AM)George is King Wrote:  

Just finished watching the fifth episode last night. Ended with the cop calling in the plate number (of a car he wasn't looking at).

Wow !!!

On a side note, I showed my oldest (12) the scene where the nephew (Brendon ?) Is being interrogated/coerced by law enforcement. And reinforced that, if he's ever in a situation like that (including school), he's not to say anything until he talks to me first.

If there's one thing in the CJS that needs to be addressed, it's how cops deal with minors. There needs to be federal statute that prohibits the amount of interaction the cops can have with minors, without parents/guardians/court appointed child advocate present. The cops pulled that kid out of school. In that situation, after the cops establish contact with the kid, they should be required by law to notify parents/guardians/etc. They should not be permitted to remove the kid from school property without the above notifications. And the school who will be aware of the situation should also be required to notify parents/guardians/child advocate/ as soon as the cops express the slightest interest.

Most kids don't understand Miranda rights. Most kids don't have the confidence to tell a police officer that they wish to invoke Miranda. Most cops will try to scare an intimidate anyone, especially kids who try to invoke.

I almost had to turn off the program when I was watching them interrogate that kid. I couldn't believe it when his attorney arranged a meeting between the kid and the detectives to sign another confession and he didn't bother to show up. Even worse, he wasn't disciplined for his actions.

[DannyAlberta]

Although very low of me, I love all the illiberal-leftists and social justice wankers going apoplectic about how awful the US Justice system is as portrayed in this documentary.

How quickly they forget that they all voted for bigger government which is what primarily enables this mischief and corruption, all for the sake of itself and its own perpetuation. dicknixon72 was spot on about that.

Another progressive Frankenstein rising up to eat the very people who created it.