Very interesting thread on money and game, although it turned into more of a debate on how money affects your ability to pull women. As far as that debate goes, it seems that we've come to the collective conclusion that the opinion of honorable men may differ. We could debate that forever.
That aside, a question I get asked a lot by my buddies, regardless of their wealth is, "When is it okay for me to pickup the tab or spend money on a girl?"
My general rules of thumb seems to have served me pretty well. To answer the question, like all things, it depends on the nature of the relationship.
I'll take a crack at it...
Scenario 1 - You have money and she doesn't: If she's a student or makes $30k a year, and you're making $230k a year, expect to pay for stuff if you want her to keep up with your lifestyle. If you live a lifestyle of relative luxury and want to keep her around, she has to be able to afford it. In this scenario, it's okay to pay for things, IMO. Otherwise, you're going to be ordering steak and she's going to be getting a side of mashed potatoes and a water while watching you eat it.
However, there is a fine line between being a sugar daddy and being a masculine man she respects who just happens to make more money than she does. If she's not working to please you in other ways - blowjobs, not creating drama, small tokens of her affection even if they don't have a lot of monetary value, cleaning your house, doing your laundry, etc. - she is probably milking you. She has to be chasing your affection, and contributing to the relationship in other ways.
If you're in the mood for a steak or a trip to the Bahamas and want her company, by all means feel free to pay for it. Otherwise, you're either going to be dating nothing except "career women" who can match your lifestyle, or not be doing the things that you want to do with her.
Don't do fancy things to impress her or risk putting yourself into bankruptcy. If she starts demanding you do fancy things when you don't feel like it or your cash flow is tied up, be firm about saying no - and you owe her no explanation. Boundaries must be established.
At the end of the day I prefer this type traditional of relationship, and I've found that so do the women I date. Your mileage may vary.
Warning:This also assumes you're trying to keep the girl around and you're open to an LTR. If not, see Scenario 5 on "FWBs."
Scenario 2 - You both have similar incomes: If she's on your level of income, relatively (or at least not poor), she'll pay for stuff on her own without asking - IF she's into you. My last LTR made good money, and she was good about picking up the tab and buying me nice stuff. This goes into our basic concept of frame - women want to please a strong, masculine male.
She should still be chasing after your affection and doing feminine things, even though she's contributing to the relationship financially. If she makes similar money to you but doesn't offer to contribute, she's probably not that into you. If you're very good looking, fit, interesting, or charming, she's going to want to do whatever it takes to keep you around.
Warning - this can quickly lead to a "roommate" situation. I've seen it way too many times - "Wow, if we both didn't have separate apartments we'd be saving so much money. It would be like cutting our expenses in half, and doubling our income!" Except then the attraction dies off, and suddenly you're just two people who live together and bang once in awhile. And your finances and living arrangements are tied together, as she lusts for the days of fucking the guitarist, not the dentist.
Sometimes, and often, people mistake "attraction" for "someone who is my financial and social equal." However, women don't want to date their equal, they actually want to date their better. Hypergamy is very, very real. As a man, you always have to have the upper hand in the relationship one way or another.
You can be a hypergamous male making equal money to her, but you need to maintain the upper hand in other ways - such as by being very good looking, having status (DJ on YouTube!!!), a very strong alpha frame, or by being a very interesting / charming person, etc.
Scenario 3 - You're poor. When a woman dates a bartender, grad student, or guitarist, she usually knows what she's in for - and it's not a lifestyle of luxury. You can occasionally offer to pay, but don't break the bank trying to keep up with a woman who likes you even though you're poor, or feeling like you have to. If she knows you're poor yet expects you to pay for everything, bail.
Believe it or not, she probably likes other qualities about you. This means she is attracted to something else about you, even knowing that you're poor. Bartenders, guitarists, artists, hipsters, DJs... these guys often have no money and really hot girlfriends. Capitalize on whatever she likes about you instead, and don't much worry about money.
Scenario 4 - She wants to be your sugar momma. No clue. I have never tried this. I'd be interested to hear the RVF's thoughts, but this type of relationship wouldn't work for me personally. I've only dated women whose income is lower than mine, or relatively close to mine.
I am an admitted chauvinist pig and prefer not to date career women. Go make me a sammy, clean my room, and head to the gym. I'll worry about everything else.
All I can picture is Jefferson Darcey from Married with Children or Kato Kaelin.
Scenario 5 - She's just a fuck buddy: If she's just a random bang then it doesn't matter, because you won't be going out to dinner or on vacation anyway.
If you have no real desire for an LTR with a girl, don't lead her on. Don't be seen in public with her. Don't meet her family. And don't spend money on her. All that jazz sends the wrong signal, which just creates drama down the road. When you start taking a girl out and being seen in public with her, she's going to expect a relationship. A few beers or some coffee at most is fine.
However, you can maintain casual fuck buddies with relative low investment. Just be clear about it, or at the very least don't send the wrong signals.
Scenario 6 - She's not even a fuck buddy but she wants money: We touched on this in the other thread, but if you're not fucking her, do not give her money expecting sex down the road. Paying her cell phone bill and keeping her electric from getting shut off is a nice thing to do, I guess, but it won't get you laid. Sorry.
Women are merely friends until you've banged. Treat a request for a "loan" or a "gift" as though one of your male friends asked you to borrow a few bucks and act accordingly.
Personally, I never ever lend or give money to the women I'm dating.
Scenario 7 - She's in the "industry": If she's an "Instagram model", escort, stripper, waitress / bartender (there are exceptions), "camgirl", works in a nightclub, has ever worked at Hooters, or she travels to Dubai constantly even though she's unemployed, there is a good chance that she's going to expect you to pay for everything, and compare you to other guys who are willing to throw around some loot. Some women simply understand and have no problem taking advantage of the connection between a man's desire for sex, and willingness to lead with money to potentially get it. It's almost always reflected in their occupation.
The good news is that there are plenty of regular, attractive single girls out there. So, my personal opinion is simply to avoid industry girls unless it's an FWB relationship. Do not get Oneitis over one of these girls. This is the type of thing where I've seen otherwise bright and career alpha dudes throw away so much cash it makes my head spin. These girls can literally create a black vortex of cash.
Industry girls do make great friends, which sometimes turns into bangs. They'll also open doors for you, and being seen with them raises your social status. Some of my favorite friends are industry girls, and it's helped me socially and professionally. I'll buy them a round of drinks here and there just like I would my other buddies or clients, but that's about it. Just don't take them too seriously or start to believe that you're any different than the 20 other guys who bought them drinks this week, along with tickets to Vegas and a swank hotel room. No matter how much money or status you have, someone else will eventually have more, and they'll find him. You can't turn a hoe into a housewife.
Scenario 8 - The First Date: You met a girl on Cupid or Tinder, and you've agreed to get together. Or maybe you just cold approached this girl in a bar, and the conversation is going well.
Do you pay, split the tab, or demand that she pays?
My two cents. Whether or not I'm into a girl on a first date, I have no problem picking up a tab of $20 - $30 for drinks, or $7 for coffee. A little bit of chauvinism is perfectly respectable, and this is a relatively low investment even if nothing comes from it. (Of course, relative to your income. If you make $30k a year, do not be wasting $30 on drinks - go out for ice cream, go one a bike ride, and then get a nightcap at your place or something. Drinking out is expensive, even if it's just your own tab.)
Where I've seen guys get blown out is making the first few dates way too expensive or formal. I've heard that described by women as "too intense" or "a little weird." Throwing down a few dollars for drinks is one thing, throwing down $500 is another. It's even worse when it's clear the guy doesn't really have money like that. Now, I'm sure Dan Bilzerian has no problem flying a gal out to his penthouse in Cabo and she'll proceed to fuck his brains out. But you are not Dan Bilzerian, and nor do you need to be.
My rule is first and second dates should never involve dinner, and always involve drinks somewhere casual. It should never cost you over $40. When you pick up a reasonable first date, you don't look like a chump, nor do you look cheap. And I know, you read on the internet never to pay for anything ever for any reason until she's banged you. But most girls actually prefer a chauvinist pig. I've simply made it a habit to pick up the first date, and it hasn't impeded my bangs one bit.
Of course, use some judgment here. If she seems bored or spends the entire night texting, have one drink and bounce. If you've fed her a couple cosmos and she's still not trying to leave the bar, you're DOA. If you haven't kissed her by like the second date, and banged by the third, there is like a 90% chance you're DOA. Women have no problem hanging out with "their gay best friend" who always picks up the tab. I've seen guys go on 10 dates and pick up the tab every time with zero physical reciprocation. Stupid, stupid, stupid. She's either attracted to you or she's not. And if she's not attracted to you, buying her more free drinks or steak dinners isn't going to fix that. Ever.
So to answer the question, until you've banged, don't put in any significant investment, but don't be afraid to put in a minor one for fear of being seen as a chump because you read that on the internet. Cut her loose after two or three dates if there's no physical interaction and move on. Just like anything, there is a cost of doing business. That rule applies to dating.
And that's all I have to say about that.
That aside, a question I get asked a lot by my buddies, regardless of their wealth is, "When is it okay for me to pickup the tab or spend money on a girl?"
My general rules of thumb seems to have served me pretty well. To answer the question, like all things, it depends on the nature of the relationship.
I'll take a crack at it...
Scenario 1 - You have money and she doesn't: If she's a student or makes $30k a year, and you're making $230k a year, expect to pay for stuff if you want her to keep up with your lifestyle. If you live a lifestyle of relative luxury and want to keep her around, she has to be able to afford it. In this scenario, it's okay to pay for things, IMO. Otherwise, you're going to be ordering steak and she's going to be getting a side of mashed potatoes and a water while watching you eat it.
However, there is a fine line between being a sugar daddy and being a masculine man she respects who just happens to make more money than she does. If she's not working to please you in other ways - blowjobs, not creating drama, small tokens of her affection even if they don't have a lot of monetary value, cleaning your house, doing your laundry, etc. - she is probably milking you. She has to be chasing your affection, and contributing to the relationship in other ways.
If you're in the mood for a steak or a trip to the Bahamas and want her company, by all means feel free to pay for it. Otherwise, you're either going to be dating nothing except "career women" who can match your lifestyle, or not be doing the things that you want to do with her.
Don't do fancy things to impress her or risk putting yourself into bankruptcy. If she starts demanding you do fancy things when you don't feel like it or your cash flow is tied up, be firm about saying no - and you owe her no explanation. Boundaries must be established.
At the end of the day I prefer this type traditional of relationship, and I've found that so do the women I date. Your mileage may vary.
Warning:This also assumes you're trying to keep the girl around and you're open to an LTR. If not, see Scenario 5 on "FWBs."
Scenario 2 - You both have similar incomes: If she's on your level of income, relatively (or at least not poor), she'll pay for stuff on her own without asking - IF she's into you. My last LTR made good money, and she was good about picking up the tab and buying me nice stuff. This goes into our basic concept of frame - women want to please a strong, masculine male.
She should still be chasing after your affection and doing feminine things, even though she's contributing to the relationship financially. If she makes similar money to you but doesn't offer to contribute, she's probably not that into you. If you're very good looking, fit, interesting, or charming, she's going to want to do whatever it takes to keep you around.
Warning - this can quickly lead to a "roommate" situation. I've seen it way too many times - "Wow, if we both didn't have separate apartments we'd be saving so much money. It would be like cutting our expenses in half, and doubling our income!" Except then the attraction dies off, and suddenly you're just two people who live together and bang once in awhile. And your finances and living arrangements are tied together, as she lusts for the days of fucking the guitarist, not the dentist.
Sometimes, and often, people mistake "attraction" for "someone who is my financial and social equal." However, women don't want to date their equal, they actually want to date their better. Hypergamy is very, very real. As a man, you always have to have the upper hand in the relationship one way or another.
You can be a hypergamous male making equal money to her, but you need to maintain the upper hand in other ways - such as by being very good looking, having status (DJ on YouTube!!!), a very strong alpha frame, or by being a very interesting / charming person, etc.
Scenario 3 - You're poor. When a woman dates a bartender, grad student, or guitarist, she usually knows what she's in for - and it's not a lifestyle of luxury. You can occasionally offer to pay, but don't break the bank trying to keep up with a woman who likes you even though you're poor, or feeling like you have to. If she knows you're poor yet expects you to pay for everything, bail.
Believe it or not, she probably likes other qualities about you. This means she is attracted to something else about you, even knowing that you're poor. Bartenders, guitarists, artists, hipsters, DJs... these guys often have no money and really hot girlfriends. Capitalize on whatever she likes about you instead, and don't much worry about money.
Scenario 4 - She wants to be your sugar momma. No clue. I have never tried this. I'd be interested to hear the RVF's thoughts, but this type of relationship wouldn't work for me personally. I've only dated women whose income is lower than mine, or relatively close to mine.
I am an admitted chauvinist pig and prefer not to date career women. Go make me a sammy, clean my room, and head to the gym. I'll worry about everything else.
All I can picture is Jefferson Darcey from Married with Children or Kato Kaelin.
Scenario 5 - She's just a fuck buddy: If she's just a random bang then it doesn't matter, because you won't be going out to dinner or on vacation anyway.
If you have no real desire for an LTR with a girl, don't lead her on. Don't be seen in public with her. Don't meet her family. And don't spend money on her. All that jazz sends the wrong signal, which just creates drama down the road. When you start taking a girl out and being seen in public with her, she's going to expect a relationship. A few beers or some coffee at most is fine.
However, you can maintain casual fuck buddies with relative low investment. Just be clear about it, or at the very least don't send the wrong signals.
Scenario 6 - She's not even a fuck buddy but she wants money: We touched on this in the other thread, but if you're not fucking her, do not give her money expecting sex down the road. Paying her cell phone bill and keeping her electric from getting shut off is a nice thing to do, I guess, but it won't get you laid. Sorry.
Women are merely friends until you've banged. Treat a request for a "loan" or a "gift" as though one of your male friends asked you to borrow a few bucks and act accordingly.
Personally, I never ever lend or give money to the women I'm dating.
Scenario 7 - She's in the "industry": If she's an "Instagram model", escort, stripper, waitress / bartender (there are exceptions), "camgirl", works in a nightclub, has ever worked at Hooters, or she travels to Dubai constantly even though she's unemployed, there is a good chance that she's going to expect you to pay for everything, and compare you to other guys who are willing to throw around some loot. Some women simply understand and have no problem taking advantage of the connection between a man's desire for sex, and willingness to lead with money to potentially get it. It's almost always reflected in their occupation.
The good news is that there are plenty of regular, attractive single girls out there. So, my personal opinion is simply to avoid industry girls unless it's an FWB relationship. Do not get Oneitis over one of these girls. This is the type of thing where I've seen otherwise bright and career alpha dudes throw away so much cash it makes my head spin. These girls can literally create a black vortex of cash.
Industry girls do make great friends, which sometimes turns into bangs. They'll also open doors for you, and being seen with them raises your social status. Some of my favorite friends are industry girls, and it's helped me socially and professionally. I'll buy them a round of drinks here and there just like I would my other buddies or clients, but that's about it. Just don't take them too seriously or start to believe that you're any different than the 20 other guys who bought them drinks this week, along with tickets to Vegas and a swank hotel room. No matter how much money or status you have, someone else will eventually have more, and they'll find him. You can't turn a hoe into a housewife.
Scenario 8 - The First Date: You met a girl on Cupid or Tinder, and you've agreed to get together. Or maybe you just cold approached this girl in a bar, and the conversation is going well.
Do you pay, split the tab, or demand that she pays?
My two cents. Whether or not I'm into a girl on a first date, I have no problem picking up a tab of $20 - $30 for drinks, or $7 for coffee. A little bit of chauvinism is perfectly respectable, and this is a relatively low investment even if nothing comes from it. (Of course, relative to your income. If you make $30k a year, do not be wasting $30 on drinks - go out for ice cream, go one a bike ride, and then get a nightcap at your place or something. Drinking out is expensive, even if it's just your own tab.)
Where I've seen guys get blown out is making the first few dates way too expensive or formal. I've heard that described by women as "too intense" or "a little weird." Throwing down a few dollars for drinks is one thing, throwing down $500 is another. It's even worse when it's clear the guy doesn't really have money like that. Now, I'm sure Dan Bilzerian has no problem flying a gal out to his penthouse in Cabo and she'll proceed to fuck his brains out. But you are not Dan Bilzerian, and nor do you need to be.
My rule is first and second dates should never involve dinner, and always involve drinks somewhere casual. It should never cost you over $40. When you pick up a reasonable first date, you don't look like a chump, nor do you look cheap. And I know, you read on the internet never to pay for anything ever for any reason until she's banged you. But most girls actually prefer a chauvinist pig. I've simply made it a habit to pick up the first date, and it hasn't impeded my bangs one bit.
Of course, use some judgment here. If she seems bored or spends the entire night texting, have one drink and bounce. If you've fed her a couple cosmos and she's still not trying to leave the bar, you're DOA. If you haven't kissed her by like the second date, and banged by the third, there is like a 90% chance you're DOA. Women have no problem hanging out with "their gay best friend" who always picks up the tab. I've seen guys go on 10 dates and pick up the tab every time with zero physical reciprocation. Stupid, stupid, stupid. She's either attracted to you or she's not. And if she's not attracted to you, buying her more free drinks or steak dinners isn't going to fix that. Ever.
So to answer the question, until you've banged, don't put in any significant investment, but don't be afraid to put in a minor one for fear of being seen as a chump because you read that on the internet. Cut her loose after two or three dates if there's no physical interaction and move on. Just like anything, there is a cost of doing business. That rule applies to dating.
And that's all I have to say about that.
