[Matt3B]

Apologies if this is in the wrong forum. I ran a search and was quite surprised not to find anything on it actually.

I want to learn Japanese but have absolutely no idea where to start. Has anyone on here learned it and can you point me in the right direction please - whether that's downloading an online course/app, buying a book, etc?

Thanks in advance.

[MdWanderer]

http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blo...just-do-it

I have never learned Japanese so other posters might be a much better resource, but the above site may help you. It is a blog of an African guy who learned Japanese in 18 months without even setting foot there but he used flash cards, bought a Japanese cable package, and basically did everything but breath in Japanese and gained fluency. I am thinking about learning Chinese so I will be reading some of this site too (he recommends using the same methods he used to learn any other language).

[Tokyo Joe]

MattC: If only I had the time for it, I would have started a SPEAK JAPAN thread to follow SWOOP JAPAN, but I haven't even been able to give the latter the attention it deserves, so I gave up on the idea. I taught myself Japanese in my not-so-early 30s, and have been conducting business exclusively in Japanese for the past seven years. It is surprisingly easy to learn to speak it; more challenging, and much more rewarding, to learn to read and write it.

I think I have scanned just about every text available, and for beginners I recommend above all others the books I settled on, namely the GENKI textbook series:
GENKI I: An Integrated Course in Elementary Japanese
GENKI II: An Integrated Course in Elementary Japanese

Opinions are like assholes -- everybody's got one -- and this one will be controversial, but if you want to ever have a real chance of speaking Japanese more than half-assedly, you cannot take the shortcut of skipping the Japanese writing system and relying on the romanization of Japanese (i.e. the absurdity of rendering Japanese using the Latin alphabet).

No, the tack to take is this: Before you even crack those books, first commit yourself to learning the two syllabaries (the hiragana and the katakana) of 46 characters each. This will not take too long, and it will give you both a very solid base to start your study as well as an immense sense of accomplishment right off the bat, as you will be able to read a fair fraction of the characters that show up in your textbook and in everyday life. The real challenge comes in learning the ideograms (the kanji), of which 2,136 have been designated as "kanji for everyday use" and which you would need to know to read, for example, a Japanese newspaper without recourse to a dictionary. But you can slowly add to your stock of kanji over months and years -- and you can get very far with only 1,000 or so (which Japanese kids learn in elementary school).

You can make your own Kana flashcards on notecards, or if you have money to spare, pick up these cards by Tuttle:
Japanese Kana Cards Kit

(To be continued...)

[kaeru]

I have been learning Japanese for a while now, and unfortunately lacked the time/discipline to practice it regularly in order to maintain it, but here is my take on how you should proceed :

First, as Tokyo Joe said, learn Hiragana and Katana. If even this seems impossible or ridiculous to you, then you should learn another language. The journey is going to lead you to learn a language that has nothing to do with english, so better be mentally ready.

Once that's done, I suggest taking any book aimed for Japanese learners, but always go for one that writes everything in Kana. Get used to seeing those alphabets, try to make sense of what you're hearing, and start noticing the rules and patterns of speech. Try to learn basic grammar and vocabulary, which is not too difficult, and you will have an idea of how Japanese is formed.

Now getting to the next level (enriching your vocabulary, and starting to read/write in Kanji) is where it's getting tough. Japanese vocabulary has a lot of homonyms (words sounding the same but with different meanings), so you're going to need a good system to remember it. What I actually suggest, and I think that was the way of some Japanese speakers of the forum, is to focus big time on the Kanji. The best way to do that without going crazy is by using Heisig's famous method :
Remembering the Kanji

It's easy to find free trials online, and if you like it I suggest using this website along with it to help you with flashcard management. I think going for the Kanji first will allow you to then read like a real Japanese person, and to memorize the writing of a word in Kanji along with it's pronunciation and meaning. This has helped me tremendously in remembering words, simply because I knew how to write them. The icing on the cake is that you can even guess a word's meaning simply by looking at the Kanji, even if you don't know how to pronounce it.

Don't forget to watch Japanese movies / anime / TV, there are a lot of gems truly worth your time and it will train your ear at the same time.

Good luck !

[Phoenix]

I'll add my perspective, as someone who's had to force himself to learn, and who finds language learning to be excruciating.

One thing to note with Japanese is that the writing and speaking system are massively decoupled, probably moreso than any other language in the world. For this reason, learning those two aspects should also be separate if you want to be efficient and get a handle on the language without being discouraged by a brutal learning curve.

What I've found doesn't work:
- Books. It's just too dry and too decoupled from using the language. I get nowhere with this.
- Flashcards. I'll go over 20 flashcards, and the following day, will have remembered exactly zero.
- Attempting to translate articles and learn meaning from that. The language structure is so different that it takes forever.
- Listening to the radio or movies. You're kidding yourself if you think watching anime is going to help you.

Neutral:
- Pimsleur. Again, not very engaging, but better than a book, and some things will stick.
- Lessons. I say neutral because it really depends on the teacher and setting. Classrooms don't work as well for language learning - you really need the teacher to be engaging with the pupil directly. And if the teacher isn't engaged or competent enough, you get nowhere.

What I've found does work:
- Going into bars and talking to people. It's hard and slow, and you use a dictionary a lot, but at least some of it sticks.
- Watching YouTube lessons. An explanation video on how to use conditionals beats a book any day.
- Dating girls who can't speak English. Helps both with written (during messaging) and speaking. If it can mean the difference between her going cold, or ending up in your bed, you'll learn.
- Heisig method for Kanji. This is the only thing that allows kanji meanings to stick in my head. Knowing the meaning won't allow you to speak them, but it will give you a foundation.

Also search for the Kitani Method Japanese video, it gives a great grammar framework lesson.

[Sidney Crosby]

If I was you I would start with something like Pimsleur and learn Hiragana/Katakana. Do a little Duolingo then once you've learn some basics switch to something like Italki (Online 1 on 1 lesson)

[Yeti]

The most important part of learning any language (in my experience) is to live for an extended period of time in the country(ies) that speak(s) the language. If that's not possible, get a Japanese girlfriend who wants you to learn Japanese. By that I mean that a lot of foreign girls will want to date a gringo for the exotic value and don't really care about him learning their language. There are a few girls who don't really care that you're a gringo and just respect someone who would learn her language - go after these kinds of girls.

[Parzival]

I started with audio CD to get used to the sound of the language and to know some words and phrases. Then I use Rosetta Stone. But now is the point where I have to learn the Hiragana and Katakana to get further with it. I also get some words / phrases at my trip in Japan.
It's just about the discipline to practice regular. I try at least 1 hour a day and next year I will join a language class that I have a regular schedule to learn it.

[Mr. Brightside]

Stole this from another place:

"Hi there, you've come to this thread looking for guidance on how to start learning Japanese, or you've already been learning Japanese for whatever length of time and you're trying to progress past a sticky point. Hopefully this OP helps somewhat, but if not, the hugely learned Japanese-speaking goons in this thread can!

Yes, Japanese is hard, but so is any language. I studied French at school, and that was fucking hard. I also took Latin, which was damn easy for me, but it's a dead language so who the hell cares that I (could, years ago) understand Latin?

The one thing common to learning any subject is that it takes time and effort. Nobody is incapable of learning Japanese, no-one. Not the twats I studied Japanese with at university who proclaimed they were doomed never to get anywhere with Japanese, because it was so hard for them; even they could get to their desired level of fluency if they applied the appropriate amount of time and hard work.

[fixed]

1. The reading & writing system
   
   1. Hiragana
   2. Katakana
   3. Kanji
      [/list=1]
   4. Can't I just go to Japan to study Japanese?
   5. Suggestions for textbooks for beginners
   6. Dictionaries: a discussion of paper, electronic, internet and smartphone varieties
      
      1. Internet dictionaries
      2. Paper dictionaries
      3. Electronic dictionaries
      4. Smartphone dictionaries (really just a blend of the above three types)
         [/list=1]
      5. Something about conjugating verbs
      6. Speaking Japanese
      7. Pitch accent
      8. How did we learn Japanese?
         [**]Is Rosetta Stone any good?
      9. The Japanese Language Proficiency Test (JLPT): What is it, who's it for, and should I take it?
      10. Links to external resources
      11. A guide to ordering books & manga from Japan
      12. In closing...
          [/list=A][/fixed]
          
          A. The reading & writing system
          
          There are two phonetic alphabets in Japanese and one character system imported from China.
          
          1. Hiragana
          
          This is the first alphabet system in Japanese, and is generally used by children who don't yet know Kanji, or for representing grammar as shown in the quote from mystes below in the Kanji subsection.
          Rather than linking just any old chart, I'll link to Tofugu.com's generous offering: http://www.tofugu.com/japanese-resources...ana-chart/
          
          2. Katakana
          
          This is the second alphabet system in Japanese, generally used for words imported into Japanese via other languages.
          A lot of Katakana look similar to their Hiragana counterparts, which makes it seem easier to learn but also has the unfortunate side-effect of making you confuse Hiragana and Katakana on occasion (as a beginner).
          Here is Tofugu's Katakana chart: http://www.tofugu.com/japanese-resources...ana-chart/
          
          Unlike Kanji, below, I do not hesitate to recommend learning Hiragana and Katakana by rote repetition. It's the maximum effort approach, but I had both alphabets down within 3 weeks by writing them out from memory until I could reproduce every character without referring to my charts. There are many books which you can buy that purport to teach you via easy systems or pictures, but I haven't used any of these and my way is free
          
          3. Kanji
          
          Here is a helpful explanation of what Kanji are by mystes
          
          Japanese children need to learn ~2000 of these by high school graduation (so, about 10 years of studying them), and they study by rote repetition, writing out the day's lesson's characters over and over and over and over and over and ... you get the idea.
          You however, are smarter than a Japanese child! It needn't take you 10 years, hell, some people claim to have learned how to write all 2000 (that are mandated by the Japanese Ministry of Education) in less than 1 year!
          
          There are many, many ways to learn, and the trick is to try as many as you can until you find one that works for you.
          
          I have personally tried:
          
          Remembering the Kanji volume 1 by James Heisig, which was working amazingly until I got derailed by personal commitments, after which point I've never quite returned to it.
          RtK has been published in English, French, German and Spanish, and is typically available in well-stocked bookstores and from Amazon.
          If you go ahead with it, you will find Spaced Repetition Software extremely useful, of which there are two well-known programs, [url="http://ankisrs.net"]Anki[/url] and [url="http://www.mnemosyne-proj.org/"]Mnemosyne[/url], both of which feature user-generated flashcard decks for learning Japanese or specifically for Remembering the Kanji, and one RtK specific website, [url="http://kanji.koohii.com/"]Reviewing the Kanji[/url].
          
          [url="http://bookclub.japantimes.co.jp/act/en/Search.do?k=&c1id=2&c2id=18"]Kanji in Context[/url], from the Japan Times Book Club, is a reference book plus two workbooks involving teaching the learner new words via example sentences, so that they are remembered in context and the learner knows their usage.
          I'm currently using this approach to Kanji, in conjunction with Anki.
          
          Ara and gra recommend [url="http://kanjidamage.com/"]Kanji Damage[/url]. The site offers a comprehensive explanation of the Kanji Damage method, so check that out if you're interested.
          
          Oh, and I almost forgot, you can disregard all those and just learn by rote memorisation, writing each Kanji over and over whilst repeating the pronunciation under your breath... that's how I started! (using this series of books, [url="http://www.bonjinsha.com/product/?item_id=27"]Basic Kanji Book 500[/url])
          
          Whichever method you choose to learn Kanji, the most important thing to remember is do not be afraid!
          In the closing page of the previous thread it was unanimously agreed upon that one should begin to study Kanji from the very beginning of one's Japanese study. If I can offer my own take on this, a very good reason for starting Kanji from the very beginning is: they take a long time to learn, so the sooner you get started, the better!
          
          08.10.2011 edit: By common consensus in this thread, it is better to learn Kanji as components of a word than to learn each Kanji individually.
          For example, the Kanji 日 should be learned by memorising the words 日（ひ・day）, 日曜日（にちようび・Sunday）, 日本（にほん or にっぽん・Japan）, 日差し（ひざし・sunlight）, and so on, rather than attempting to memorise the on-yomi and kun-yomi readings of the individual Kanji. As mentioned earlier in this subsection, the Kanji In Context textbooks teach Kanji via words in this manner.
          
          B.Can't I just go to Japan to study Japanese?
          
          Sure! Here are a couple of Tokyo-based Japanese language school directories, for people interested in studying from scratch or brushing up on their current Japanese skills:
          
          http://www.japantimes.co.jp/info/japanes...directory/
          
          http://metropolis.co.jp/specials/909/909_top.htm
          
          I also learned of [url="http://yamasa.org/index.html"]the Yamasa Institute[/url] in the previous thread; I welcome any reports from alumni!
          
          I personally know of people who have been able to go live in Japan by landing English-teaching jobs, either through the JET programme or via some private English-language schools (known as 英会話・えいかいわ). Nominally a Bachelor's degree is the entry-level requirement for such a job, however some private schools sneakily hire foreigners who don't have degrees too. So this would be an alternative to paying for the above-mentioned Japanese language schools.
          
          C. What are some good textbooks for beginners?
          
          [url="http://www.3anet.co.jp/english/books/books_01.html"]みんなの日本語[/url] (Minna no Nihongo)
          [url="http://www.ajalt.org/e/publications/textbooks1.html"]Japanese for Busy People[/url]
          [url="http://genki.japantimes.co.jp/index_en"]Genki[/url] - Genki comes most highly recommended by goons!
          
          If textbooks turn you off, skip on down to the Resources section of this post, and have a read of All Japanese All The Time and Tae Kim's Guide To Japanese, both of which enable textbook-averse people to join in and learn Japanese.
          
          D. Can you suggest a good dictionary?
          
          1. Thank god for the internets! Seriously, if you're just starting out and not willing to drop a load of cash on pricey paper dictionaries (or even more hilariously pricey electronic dictionaries) there are a good few sites out there.
          
          I use [url="http://www.alc.co.jp/"]ALC[/url], which is all in Japanese but you can still use it if you don't know any Japanese.
          Just enter the word you're trying to translate (Japanese or English, either is fine), press the Enter/Return key, and you will get a lengthy results page.
          A word of caution: mystes advises you below not to use ALC for translating Japanese words into English, as entries are automatically generated.
          
          [url="http://dic.yahoo.co.jp/"]Yahoo! Japan[/url] has a selection of dictionaries, and will reference all of them in their search results. The radio buttons underneath the search box mean Japanese, quasi-synonyms, English-Japanese, Japanese-English, and all dictionaries, respectively. The yellow box to the right means to search the dictionaries, whilst clicking the blue box will search the internet.
          
          Both of the above dictionaries are primarily aimed at Japanese internet users, whereas in the English-speaking internet, [url="http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/cgi-bin/wwwjdic.cgi?1C"]Jim Breen's WWWJDIC[/url] is quite popular. I have little experience of using it, and haven't used it in a long time, so I'll link to [url="http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3438030&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=2#post395738276"]a post on page two[/url] containing other people's thoughts on it.
          
          2. If you're looking for something more tangible, I highly recommend the two following paper dictionaries:
          [url="http://www.amazon.co.uk/Kodanshas-Furigana-Dictionary-Japanese-English-English-Japanese/dp/4770024800"]Kodansha Furigana Japanese-English/English-Japanese Dictionary[/url]
          [url="http://www.amazon.co.uk/Kodansha-Kanji-Learners-Dictionary-Halpern/dp/4770028555/ref=pd_bxgy_b_text_b"]Kodansha Kanji Learner's Dictionary[/url]
          
          3. Exceedingly popular among foreign exchange students (though marketed towards Japanese people who are themselves learning Japanese or studying foreign languages), the electronic dictionary is a portable device which comes preloaded with software, and has memory card slots so that you can buy additional software to suit your needs. The "software" tends to be electronic versions of popular paper dictionaries.
          
          Electronic dictionary hardware is updated annually, although there is not usually a lot to differentiate between different years. Recently, models with colour LCD screens have become cheaper and so there are more of those on the market than in previous years when black and white dominated the lower-priced end of the market. The main determinant of cost is the amount of software that comes preloaded with your model, and the higher the price, the more broad the variety of dictionaries included.
          
          (In my Y30,000 electronic dictionary, as well as Japanese and English dictionaries, I also have Kanji dictionaries, an entire section of English conversation dictionaries, a bunch of "lifestyle" software including an encylopedia and more, two guides to childcare (wtf?), several guides to housewifery, medical dictionaries and encyclopedia, etc. Basically shitloads of content that I may never use.)
          
          I don't recommend buying an electronic dictionary outside of Japan. Although it is possible, the choice of models is extremely limited, and you will probably not get your pick of software as you would in a Japanese electronics store. Also, electronic dictionaries are expensive enough without paying extra like you would via an import store!
          Popular manufacturers are Canon, Casio, Seiko and Sharp.
          
          As you start learning Japanese, you'll be using Japanese -> English (and English -> Japanese) dictionaries. There are many, ranging from small ones produced by Western publishers (e.g. The Oxford Starter Japanese Dictionary) to large ones produced by Japanese publishers, which I will list below:
          
          研究者新和英大辞典
          This comes recommended by Ara, mystes, Keito, and orenronen, and I've never heard of it, so I really feel like I am missing out by not having a copy on my electronic dictionary!
          研究社新英和和英中辞典
          mystes mentions this below, as a subset of the above dictionary, and notes that it is included in [url="http://www.yahoo.co.jp/"]Yahoo! Japan[/url]'s online dictionary.
          ジーニアス英和辞典 (Genius English -> Japanese Dictionary)
          プログレッシブ和英中辞典 (Progressive Japanese -> English Dictionary)
          
          The general consensus on the internet seems to be that you should wean yourself off Japanese -> English and English -> Japanese dictionaries as soon as possible, but how are you meant to know how to pick a good Japanese -> Japanese dictionary? The following come recommended by posters in this thread:
          
          [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C5%8Djien"]広辞苑[/url] (こうじえん, kou ji en)
          [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daijirin"]大辞林[/url] (だいじりん, dai ji rin)
          [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daijisen"]大辞泉[/url] (だいじせん, dai ji sen)
          明鏡 (めいきょう, mei kyou)
          [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shin_Meikai_kokugo_jiten"]新明解国語辞典[/url] (しんめいかいこくごじてん, shin mei kai koku go ji ten)
          [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nihon_Kokugo_Daijiten"]日本国語大辞典[/url] (にほんこくごだいじてん, ni hon koku go dai ji ten)
          
          4. Smartphone dictionaries.
          
          On the iPhone/iPod there are a few Japanese dictionary apps, and the two most highly commended (to my ears, at least) are [url="http://www.codefromtokyo.com/japanese"]Japanese[/url] and [url="http://kotoba.pierrephi.net/"]Kotoba[/url].
          Unfortunately I don't know what equivalent apps are available for Android, though they do exist.
          
          There is more detailed information on dictionaries by mystes [url="http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3438030&pagenumber=1&perpage=40#post395652100"]below[/url].
          
          E. Conjugating verbs in Japanese
          
          The textbooks from which I learned Japanese tend to separate Japanese verbs into two groups of regular verbs, and just one irregular verb (which is する・to do). The former are referred to as Group I and Group II verbs, or 1-row and 5-row. Learning most of the verb forms, i.e. dictionary form, polite form, negative form, imperative form, past form, is relatively easy. Learning how to properly use is the only problem with causative, passive, and passive-causative verb forms, in my experience.
          
          I've located a verb conjugation chart! Please visit [url="http://respectthebeard.com/japanese/"]Aeron Buchanan's Japanese Verb Chart[/url] to download.
          
          Next up: some information about adjectives in Japanese (there's two groups, ending in -i or in -na, and the way you follow them in a sentence changes depending on the ending, therefore not so difficult ((apart from memorising whether an adjective is -i or -na when you learn it))).
          
          F. Speaking Japanese
          
          Oh my word! All this information on Japanese without even mention of actually speaking any? Well, let me rectify that.
          
          If you are taking classes, you might have guided instruction on speaking and role-play with fellow students, which is shit because no-one has any confidence whatsoever, but is great for putting you on the spot and forcing you to use what you've just learned.
          
          If you are a self-learner (or even fancy extra speaking practice beyond what you receive in class) then it's worth seeking the Japanese clubs/societies of your local university. At my university there was a Japanese Society which held weekly social events, to which non-students were frequent visitors. These provide an excellent opportunity not only to practice Japanese with native speakers, but also to integrate oneself with the local Japanese community.
          
          In old versions of Skype, you could search for Japanese people and spam them with requests for conversation practice. Skype no longer includes this capability, but there are websites (does anyone have links please?) which you can use to locate Japanese Skype users for this purpose.
          
          G. Pitch accent? Huh? what?
          
          I can't write a good explanation of pitch in Japanese, so I'll defer to seorin:
          
          
          My Casio EX-word electronic dictionary includes an NHK pronunciation dictionary, in which words are written with lines above them. If the line is flat, the pronunciation is flat; if the line steps up, the pitch of that syllable of the word also steps up, and so on. But I agree with seorin, more fluent foreign speakers of Japanese than I suggest to me that pitch is best picked up subconsciously through massive amounts of exposure to native Japanese TV, radio, etc.
          
          H. How did others in this thread learn Japanese?
          
          Here are some examples from the previous thread:
          
          
          
          ii.
          [/quote][/quote]
          
          I. What's the [url="http://www.jlpt.jp/e/"]Japanese Language Proficiency Test(JLPT)[/url]?
          This is an exam offered around the world which measures your ability to comprehend, but not produce, Japanese. As such, passing it at the highest level doesn't equal being able to speak the language perfectly but if you're studying holistically (learning how to speak, read, write, listen all together) you'll be okay.
          The test is offered twice a year in some locations, and once a year in the rest of the world. There are five levels of difficulty, and you can only take one per test session. In my opinion, level N2 is the bare minimum you should apply for, because when you apply for jobs involving Japanese, the recruiter tends to ask for that or higher. I would say levels N3-5 are a cruel attempt to squeeze money out of hapless language students by the administrator of the JLPT.
          
          There are a lot of publishers that offer their own series of textbooks for passing each level of the JLPT, and three of the big ones are 3A Corporation, Unicom, and ASK.
          
          [url="http://www.3anet.co.jp/english/index.html"]Here[/url] is the English-language website of 3A Corporation, who publish the 完全マスター series of JLPT-preparation books.
          [url="http://unicom-lra.co.jp/indexe.html"]Here[/url] is Unicom's English-language homepage, and they publish the 実力アップ！ series, which I think are the best-selling JLPT study guides.
          The online store for ASK's 日本語総まとめ series for the JLPT is [url="http://www.ask-shop.net/shopbrand/042/002/X/brandname/"]here[/url]. As Reverend Cheddar says in the quote below, for grammar, this comes highly recommended because each Japanese sentence is accompanied by an English translation, which comes in handy when you encounter a new grammar pattern and need to get your head around it. Although I think the N1 books in this series do not include English translations of example sentences...
          
          Generally the three publishers offer study guides for grammar (文法), reading comprehension (読解), Kanji (漢字）, listening comprehension (聴解), and vocabulary (語彙).
          These are aimed at people taking the JLPT but they make a good intermediate-to-advanced level of learning material for everyone.
          
          The following point by Reverend Cheddar is worth mentioning:
          
          
          Should I take the JLPT?
          
          I refer you to one pro-JLPT and one anti-JLPT argument from the previous thread, plus something quirky:
          
          
          
          
          J. Resources:
          
          [url="http://www.polarcloud.com/rikaichan"]Rikaichan[/url]
          Rikaichan is an add-on for Mozilla Firefox which displays the pronunciation and meaning of a Japanese word if you hover over it with your cursor, and is probably the first thing any aspiring Japanese language learner should get. Dictionaries now available for English, German, French, Russian, Thai and Vietnamese.
          
          [url="http://code.google.com/p/rikaikun/"]Rikaikun[/url]
          Rikaikun is a version of Rikaichan, for Google Chrome.
          
          [url="http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog/about"]All Japanese All The Time (AJATT)[/url]
          Khatzumoto, the man behind this site (and method) purports to have become fluent in Japanese in 18 months (fluent enough to sound Japanese over the phone and get through an interview to land a job in Japan as a computer programmer). Let's take everything he says with a giant hunk of salt...
          His blog is worth a read, though, for advice, inspiration, ideas, links, and interesting source material, and he deserves a mention.
          
          [url="http://www.guidetojapanese.org/learn/grammar"]Tae Kim's Guide to Learning Japanese[/url]
          Tae Kim wrote an awesome guide to Japanese grammar, and a lot of people seem to find it more useful than beginner's textbooks. It's free, so you can go and give it a try before investing in any yourself.
          
          [url="http://www.tofugu.com/"]Tofugu[/url]
          [url="http://nihongoperapera.com/"]NihongoPeraPera[/url]
          [url="http://www.nihongojouzu.com/"]Nihongojouzu[/url]
          The above three sites are all interesting and useful to Japanese learners, and the first even to people only interested in Japanese culture.
          
          [url="http://kanji.koohii.com/"]Reviewing the Kanji[/url]
          RtK is designed to be used in conjunction with Remembering the Kanji volume 1. It is an online flashcard/Spaced Repetition System application for reviewing the kanji you have learned so far in the book, and has a lot of cool features, like a list of stories for remembering a character that other users came up with themselves, and a helpful forum very much like this thread but massive-er.
          
          [url="http://www.fnn-news.com/"]Fuji News Network[/url]
          If you're interested in watching the news in Japanese, this site is handy.
          You see the garbled text below the slideshow too? It took me AGES to figure this out, but if you click on that garbled text, you are taken to that particular news story with a full Japanese transcription of the video! Combined with Rikaichan, you can follow along with the news in Japanese!
          
          [url="http://lang-8.com/"]lang-8[/url] is a site where you can write a diary in the language you are trying to learn, and any mistakes will be corrected by native speakers.
          
          
          http://www.japanesepod101.com/ is a podcast for learning Japanese.
          http://www.nhk.or.jp/r-news/ is also a podcast, which lets you select the speed of playback. I can't get it to work in Firefox for Mac
          
          
          gra has some input on Japanese-language websites that intermediate users may progress to once they get to the stage where they want some native language source material:
          

          Quote:
          
          Here are some random social news type sites that I read since that seems to be what people are looking for -
          
          Websites -
          
          http://www.kotaku.jp/ (yeah whatever, it's got a good collection of fairly short articles about stuff the average goon will find interesting)
          
          http://news.2chblog.jp/ (you can take or leave the comments, has lots of pictures too which is less daunting than a huge block of text which puts me off even English internet reading)
          
          http://umashika-news.jp/ as above
          
          http://b.hatena.ne.jp/ & http://newsing.jp/ (more Digg-like than the above)
          
          Podcasts -
          
          http://www.kjp.konami.jp/gs/hideoblog/ (there's an awesome Suda51 radio drama version of Snatcher at the moment)
          
          http://www.avanti-web.com/ (this always cracks me up, I don't know why. They just have a random guest come on and pretend to having a casual chat in a bar complete with a somebody playing the waiter and fake clinking glass sound effects etc.)
          
          http://www.tbsradio.jp/kakiiin/hono...88;relationship advice, I find it quite easy to understand)
          
          Books/manga/games other -
          
          Murakami/Radio - a book of short (3 page) essays about all sorts of things, if anybody else knows of books like this that would be great
          http://www.amazon.co.jp/%E6%9D%91%E...16374324&sr=8-1
          
          逆転裁判 - Manga/game series, I've actually found these really helpful for understanding the news as there's a lot of dialogue to do with courts, witnesses, victims etc. and no furigana.
          
          Also a third recommendation for kanji damage over RTK, though kanji damage only covers about 1700 kanji which always seemed weird to me - if you've put in so much work why not just go for the whole 常用？

          
          K. Want to order books from Japan? Or trouble finding books mentioned in this OP or later in this thread on your country's Amazon site? Read this helpful post by [b]darkgray[/b]:
          

          Quote:
          
          I don't know where you live, either, so it's hard to recommend the best store for you. Personally I'm in Europe, and have ordered literally thousands of books/manga from Amazon Japan. They have an enormous inventory, extremely fast delivery, and are reliable. Shipping is expensive, though. Lately I've started using BK1, because they provide a lot more options for shipping.
          
          
          More details about shipping costs:
          Amazon Japan takes a minimum of 3400 yen ($39) per shipment, and an additional 300 yen ($3.3) per item, which means ordering 1 book = 3700 yen ($42) just for shipping! Delivery time 3-5 days.
          BK1 charges depending on weight with no minimum charge, estimating 200 grams per book, which using the SAL method means 1 book = 280 yen ($3.2) for shipping. Delivery time 1-11 weeks!
          
          It's clear to see that you save enormous amounts of money by going with BK1, but it isn't always this clear-cut. Shipping via SAL means you have no way to track your shipment, and delivery time can be very unreliable, so you may be checking your mailbox furiously before eventually being lucky enough to find something in it. There's also no insurance, so if the package is lost, you're most likely screwed. Having said that, the two times I've ordered, I've received my packages in exactly two weeks.
          
          It gets even more complicated from here on. Since BK1 charges depending on the weight of your package, the contents of your order have a big effect on the shipping cost, and can be hard to guess before they've actually packaged everything and sent it out.
          
          Sample weights:
          * 12 kokki 1 - 188g [light novel]
          * Bakemonogatari 1 - 402g [light novel]
          * Brave Story 1 - 227g [light novel]
          * Gosicks 1 - 180g [light novel]
          * Toradora 1 - 155g [light novel]
          * Dragonball (Perfect Edition) 01 - 435g [manga]
          * Major 01 - 161g [manga]
          * Please Save My Earth (Perfect Edition) 01 - 697g [manga]
          
          So as an extreme example, if you were to buy the entire PSME series from BK1 in one go, your package would weigh 10*697g = 6970g which is about 7000 yen ($79)!
          Compare this with Amazon Japan, where you would be charged 3400+10*300 = 6400 yen ($72) and be reimbursed if it was lost.
          
          In general, I'd recommend BK1 for orders up to 15 items, and Amazon on orders of more than 15 items. Note that the prices will differ somewhat if you live outside Europe.

          
          L. Aaand finally, I'll leave you with this:
          
          This guy, over at Reviewing the Kanji's forum, said:
          

          Quote:
          
          Drawing inspiration from AJATT and, upon beginning to use RTK, the posts and users on this forum, I dove into native material beginning my second year of Japanese study and never looked back. (I'm not usually one to post on forums, however. :])
          With a few months to go in my third year of study I was feeling good about my progress and took the JLPT for the first time.
          
          N1
          Vocabulary: 57/60
          Reading: 52/60
          Listening: 60/60
          Overall: 169/180
          
          Now I can begin learning Japanese.

          
          This guy (claims to have) passed JLPT in just over two years of study, although further posts by him/her allude to making Japanese part of one's life (kind of like the approach suggested by All Japanese All The Time in my Resources section above. I include this quote to say that you too can do the same!
          (Even after 7 years of study, with 6 months in Kyushu and 4 years of study as a minor at university including a full year of study abroad in Tokyo, I still narrowly failed JLPT 2級 3 times, so remember, learning Japanese successfully is about applying a sustained effort with no long breaks in learning or using your Japanese)"

[cascadecombo]

There has been a lot of good information already posted.

As earlier mentioned, the Genki series was my first introduction into Japanese.

I did find flashcards to be useful, especially with a phone app. Kanjisenpai and Memrise are two different apps that I have used and found to be helpful. I especially liked Kanjisenpai as I could remove words I already knew / memorized faster than the others so that I would not waste time seeing them again.

^ A lot of words are in katakana that are basically English words turned Japanesezy.

For learning hiragana and katakana
Get the japanese language on your phone and using the swipe style keyboard has been a way for me to show my friends who visit how to practice and write down the words they have heard.



The image on the left is the keyboard I still use when texting in Japanese. I had my buddies use that and when they wanted to practice how to write simple words, I would have them try to type it out to send me what they thought the spelling was.

It's fairly intuitive.
[a ] [ka] [sa]
[ta] [na] [ha]
[ma] [ya] [ra]
[cnv] [wa] [punctuiation]
^button changes [ha] -> [ba] or [pa] or [ka] -> [ga] for example.

From there you swipe up to change the vowel.
Swipe up for う
Swipe left for い
Swipe right for [e]え
Swipe down for [o] お
(pronunciation differs from English)

[u]Quote:

The best way to do that without going crazy is by using Heisig's famous method :
Remembering the Kanji

This book, in regards to every person I know who speaks fluent Japanese, is the must read for learning kanji. Hands down, this is a much acquire. No questions, just get it. Ebook or actual book whatever.

[i]If you intend to study in Japan
A mistake I made when I first started, was learning Japanese from the girls I was talking to. There are very distinct masculine and feminine ways of speech. Be aware of what you are saying so that you don't sound like some flaming homosexual when your Japanese gets to a conversational level.


Hopefully I was able to add something useful in addition to what other users have already posted.

[Heart Break Kid]

Bump, anyone taking Japanese still?

I figure I learn a language at my Uni and Japanese was the most convenient for me schedule wise, plus I do have interest in learning it. My class uses the Genki books so I'm excited to start reading them.

[cascadecombo]

Those are the same books I started with. Typically universities have exchange programs so check with your teacher if there are any Japanese students on campus and try to get in touch with them. Nothing really beats 1 on 1 interaction.

If you want extra resources [Kanji Sempai] is an app I used/use for studying kanji. It's free and has the lists broken down from level 5 up to level 1. Most of the level 1 kanji would be what you are learning anyway.

^ That app has a nice built in Timer too, 5 minutes a day if you do it daily will improve your vocabulary immensely.

[VolandoVengoVolandoVoy]

https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Wikibooks:...h_Speakers

According to the FSI, Japanese is the highest difficulty level, and requires 2200+ classroom hours to learn, with half that recommended to be in country immersion.

In the same amount of time, you could learn two low difficulty languages and one moderate difficulty language.

For example, Spanish (600 hours) + Portuguese (600 hours) + Russian (1100 hours) = 2300 hours.

Personally I think it would be MUCH more useful for pussy, pleasure, and business to learn Spanish, Portuguese, and Russian than Japanese, but to each his own.

Also, by number of native speakers (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_la...speakers):

Spanish (405 million) + Portuguese (215 million) + Russian (155 million) = 775 million people

Japanese = 125 million people

[cascadecombo]

^ What's the point of that? Thread about learning Japanese, oh hey learn Spanish because lots of people around the world speak Spanish.

Fun fact, Spanish pronunciation is quite similar to Japanese.

Not to mention if a guys trying to get laid the types of women vary immensely from Hispanic - Russian - Japanese.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co...nominal%29

[VolandoVengoVolandoVoy]

(01-29-2016 10:42 AM)cascadecombo Wrote:  

^ What's the point of that? Thread about learning Japanese, oh hey learn Spanish because lots of people around the world speak Spanish.

Fun fact, Spanish pronunciation is quite similar to Japanese.

Not to mention if a guys trying to get laid the types of women vary immensely from Hispanic - Russian - Japanese.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co...nominal%29

It was what popped into my head when I saw the thread.

It doesn't seem like there's much point in learning a language half assed.

So, I looked into time required for professional proficiency, aka the FSI standard.

I was actually surprised by just how much longer it takes to learn Japanese than other languages.

You could knock out German and French, learn salsa or tango, and still have time left over to pick up guitar in the same length of time as learning Japanese.

I'm actually intrigued by people who would choose to do it without a compelling reason such as family ties or a doctorate in oriental studies or something.

Maybe as a demonstration of intellectual prowess or a desire to be different?

[Heart Break Kid]

(01-29-2016 11:40 AM)VolandoVengoVolandoVoy Wrote:  

(01-29-2016 10:42 AM)cascadecombo Wrote:  

^ What's the point of that? Thread about learning Japanese, oh hey learn Spanish because lots of people around the world speak Spanish.

Fun fact, Spanish pronunciation is quite similar to Japanese.

Not to mention if a guys trying to get laid the types of women vary immensely from Hispanic - Russian - Japanese.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co...nominal%29

It was what popped into my head when I saw the thread.

It doesn't seem like there's much point in learning a language half assed.

So, I looked into time required for professional proficiency, aka the FSI standard.

I was actually surprised by just how much longer it takes to learn Japanese than other languages.

You could knock out German and French, learn salsa or tango, and still have time left over to pick up guitar in the same length of time as learning Japanese.

I'm actually intrigued by people who would choose to do it without a compelling reason such as family ties or a doctorate in oriental studies or something.

Maybe as a demonstration of intellectual prowess or a desire to be different?

(01-29-2016 10:06 AM)VolandoVengoVolandoVoy Wrote:  

https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Wikibooks:...h_Speakers

According to the FSI, Japanese is the highest difficulty level, and requires 2200+ classroom hours to learn, with half that recommended to be in country immersion.

In the same amount of time, you could learn two low difficulty languages and one moderate difficulty language.

For example, Spanish (600 hours) + Portuguese (600 hours) + Russian (1100 hours) = 2300 hours.

Personally I think it would be MUCH more useful for pussy, pleasure, and business to learn Spanish, Portuguese, and Russian than Japanese, but to each his own.

Also, by number of native speakers (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_la...speakers):

Spanish (405 million) + Portuguese (215 million) + Russian (155 million) = 775 million people

Japanese = 125 million people

I think you're looking at this too much like a video game.

It is not an actual fact, that someone can learn 3 languages by the time someone learns Japanese. This is just one study, and ultimately one opinion from one accumulated source.

Learning a language is largely up to the individual. Most people in America have been studying Spanish since they were in elementary school, and most people who are not of Latin origin cannot speak Spanish still. Learning a language requires tenacity, which cannot be easily measured.


It doesn't take 2200 hours to learn how to talk in Japanese. The metrics that you posted take into account fluency in writing and reading, which is disproportionately difficult for an English speaker than writing is. If you want to pick up girls in a club, you will likely not need to learn thousands of Kanji characters.

Unless linguistics is your hobby, being able to pick up 3 languages in perfect sequence would be rather difficult (ie learning Portuguese, Spanish and Russian all back to back). Becoming fluent in a language still does not mean that you are "good" at speaking that language, chances are you're not going to feel satisfied about your grammar even after you have become fluent. Also, one has to take into account practical things like burning out on studying, forgetting the language you just learned, etc.


Ultimately though, the reason why people might not learn an army of Indo-European languages over learning just Japanese is because of lack of interest. If you don't have a real interest in learning a language, you're probably not going to be able to learn a language. Russia is pretty popular on this board, but in the US I would dare say that most people would have zero interest in ever going there (and I think the same would be true for some other Western countries as well). Without genuine interest in a culture where people speak Russian, chances are you're not going to be able to speak Russian (wanting to put that you can speak Russian on a resume is probably not enough motivation).


125 million people is quite a bit of people, Japan is still a large market. In a vacuum, there are a lot of languages in this world, and Japanese is still among one of the more popular ones. There are also hardly any people who can speak both Japanese and English, there are a lot of people who are bilingual in English/French or English/Spanish - so the unique factor has to come into play. To put things in perspective, there are probably about as many native Japanese speakers as there are German speakers, but there are a significant amount of German speakers who can speak a 2nd language incredibly well (English is what I am thinking of primarily), so Japanese would probably be a more "valuable" language in a vacuum.






As for me personally, I have a chance to take some foreign language credits at a university. My school just got rid of Russian, and there is only one Portuguese class (I think Portuguese would be the most useful for someone in international business personally).

I was left between more competitive languages like Arabic, Mandarin and Spanish vs Japanese. I have no interest in going to Arabic countries, I don't care too much to go to most Chinese speaking countries (and I don't really like the Mandarin language much, I've taken lessons in it for business before), and my Spanish is already decent enough (but ultimately, I do not care much to go to Latin American countries at the moment).


Japanese is still useful, there is a lot of resources to help someone get emerged in it (video games, anime, sports, movies, comics), I'd like to live in Japan for at least a few months, being able to talk in Japanese is something that is unique, and it's also rather challenging (not particularly important for most people, but I want something that I can strain my brain while I'm sleep walking through my bachelors degree). The rules to speaking Japanese are not complicated and are very consistent (based on what I've been exposed too), and the pronunciation is not difficult.


Sorry for the tl;dr, just trying to give my insight.

[RichieP]

FSI includes time taken for learning reading/writing.

If you just want to get conversational, it's significantly easier. In terms of difficulty, probably not much harder than learning German as a native Eng speaker.

[Tokyo Joe]

BUMP.

Well lads, how's our study of Japanese coming along these days?

Here is today's listening comprehension exercise. See if you can catch her measurements.

If this doesn't motivate you, I fear nothing will.

[Stallion]

Actually, if you ignore the writing, I was surprised at how simple Japanese grammar and vocabulary are. Pronunciation is also very quick to catch.

Hiragana and Katakana don't take more than a couple days to learn. Kanji.. well, that's another story.

I've heard that grammar get's exponentially harder once you are intermediate.

But for basic day to day spoken Japanese, I found it so much easier than German for example. Although much respect to those who are fully fluent, that does take much more commitment than German!

It's a pity I didn't keep practicing, I would be conversational by now, but I got sidetracked by German. And my German still sucks!

[Satoshi]

For EU citizens there is a university where you can study Japanese doing online course for free, they use the genki book and you need to be online about 5 hours a week. After two semesters you can do exchange program where tuition fee is paid. Don't want to post it here, if anyone wants to know more send me a pm.

[Heart Break Kid]

I increased my level of Japanese by a decent amount in the Summer. The base I got from Japanese 101 in Uni was enough, I essentially did the equivalent of the next two courses on my own.

I also went out to meet Japanese people in my city, and got some practice in. I got a pretty good method for increasing my Japanese at a good rate, but it's a shame my microphone broke down during the Summer (needed for Italki and Skype).

I haven't practiced in a couple months because I'm at a bit of a decision paralysis. I'm not sure if I should stop my Japanese and pick up Mandarin since I want to go to Taiwan (and it gives me the option of exploring mainland China as well).

I think I am going to just give Japanese a go until the new year, see where I am three months from now, because I think I may have developed a method that is good for language learning.

[Stallion]

(10-03-2016 03:31 PM)Heart Break Kid Wrote:  

I increased my level of Japanese by a decent amount in the Summer. The base I got from Japanese 101 in Uni was enough, I essentially did the equivalent of the next two courses on my own.

I also went out to meet Japanese people in my city, and got some practice in. I got a pretty good method for increasing my Japanese at a good rate, but it's a shame my microphone broke down during the Summer (needed for Italki and Skype).

I haven't practiced in a couple months because I'm at a bit of a decision paralysis. I'm not sure if I should stop my Japanese and pick up Mandarin since I want to go to Taiwan (and it gives me the option of exploring mainland China as well).

I think I am going to just give Japanese a go until the new year, see where I am three months from now, because I think I may have developed a method that is good for language learning.

Don't make the mistake of going for yet another difficult language before your bases on Japanese are strong strong strong.

I know a lot of guys who make this mistake. They end up being bad at a dozen languages, and end up forgetting everything after a year or two.

[Eklavya]

I have been watching anime a lot.one episode per day.

I am planning to learn Japanese and Spanish. There are a lot of Japanese businesses investing right now in India.They will need a translator or two.

Plus,I have a bad case of 'yellow/asian fever' right now.I don't know something about their creamy legs and tiny petite frames makes me just want to fuck them raw and make babies..

Spanish is the second most spoken language in the world,so everyone should learn it.

[[email protected]]

I'm half Japanese and fluent in the language, passport holder.

Hiragana first, then Katakana (which is the same as Hiragana but reserved for use in foreign words). I would not bother with Kanji and delve straight into manga. Read the crap out of manga while looking up words and from there you can branch out into whatever.

[YMD]

I believe that this is a good start point, although I'm not a Japanese learner (because it's my first language...)
I like watching a video made by a vlogger like him, a person who is from an English speaking country and speaks Japanese.
The GENKI series, which is introduced by him in this video, is apparently very popular among other J-vloggers too.

This advice is for people who are very serious about improving their accent.