[Samseau]

http://www.zerohedge.com/article/guest-p...se-protest

   

[Chad Daring]

After reading all he wrote, then reading that last paragraph you almost want to cry when you think about how it ended and why it went that way.

I'm gonna keep that link bookmarked and send it to every girl I see online who says "where have all the good guys gone"

[YoungGunner]

Fact that he was an army veteran (if true) makes this all the more disgusting

[Samseau]

http://www.zerohedge.com/article/guest-p...as-decline

"Late last week, Thomas James Ball reached his breaking point. Driven to desperation by a system that bankrupted him and destroyed his family, Ball walked up to the main door of the Keene County, New Hampshire courthouse, doused himself with gasoline, and lit himself ablaze.

Hardly anyone seems to have noticed.

Conversely, when a 26-year old Tunisian man lit himself on fire a few months ago after police confiscated the fruits and vegetables he had been selling without a proper permit, it launched a wave of revolution across the Middle East.

People were shocked into taking action… protests and riots swept the region and one regime after another crumbled.

Rather than sparking an “American spring” and shocking US citizens into taking their country back, though, Mr. Ball’s act of self-immolation seems to have been largely ignored. There has been scant coverage (and scant is being extremely generous) of Mr. Ball in the mainstream media, and what little coverage there is generally discredits the man as a troublemaker.

This is how the system’s gatekeepers have been so adroit at maintaining the status quo– by suppressing dissent, marginalizing the detractors, and distracting the populace with meaningless, irrelevant drivel."

[wi30]

(06-18-2011 02:40 PM)Chad Daring Wrote:  

After reading all he wrote, then reading that last paragraph you almost want to cry when you think about how it ended and why it went that way.

I'm gonna keep that link bookmarked and send it to every girl I see online who says "where have all the good guys gone"

The end actually was pretty hard for me to read. It sucks that it had to end that way for him.

Though I think burning himself was not the way to protest, something needs to be done. The government is getting way too involved and the ball is entirely in the woman's court so to speak.

I would never hit a woman under normal circumstances (exceptions being if she was coming at me with a knife or some shit) but some broad can hit herself in the face and blame you when the cops get there. Same thing for rape. Any girl can randomly accuse you of anything and no one is going to believe that you are innocent. America is getting ridiculous.

[oldnemesis]

(06-18-2011 02:40 PM)Chad Daring Wrote:  

After reading all he wrote, then reading that last paragraph you almost want to cry when you think about how it ended and why it went that way.

I only went through 1/4 of it and pretty much every sentence sounded fake to me.

[Samseau]

Oh shit... haven't seen you in awhile! Just when I was starting to miss you!

(06-28-2011 02:16 AM)oldnemesis Wrote:  

(06-18-2011 02:40 PM)Chad Daring Wrote:  

After reading all he wrote, then reading that last paragraph you almost want to cry when you think about how it ended and why it went that way.

I only went through 1/4 of it and pretty much every sentence sounded fake to me.

Are you fuckin kidding me? You think those burn marks are spray-painted on or something?

How about the fact that this story was mentioned all over the local Keene newspapers? This letter was sent in on the same day the burning took place, which occurred in broad daylight and had plenty of witnesses?

Do you think a fake incident would get featured on one of the most prominent news blogs around?

[oldnemesis]

(06-28-2011 06:22 AM)Samseau Wrote:  

Oh shit... haven't seen you in awhile! Just when I was starting to miss you!

You may be surprised, but some of us actually have a life outside this forum

Quote:

Are you fuckin kidding me? You think those burn marks are spray-painted on or something?

My argument was about the content of the letter, and the details mentioned there. It was not about the fact someone burned themselves, which is something I don't really care about. You know, roughly 35,000 people died from suicide in 2008; I guess they all had motives for that. One more suicide doesn't impress me at all.

Quote:

How about the fact that this story was mentioned all over the local Keene newspapers? This letter was sent in on the same day the burning took place, which occurred in broad daylight and had plenty of witnesses?
Do you think a fake incident would get featured on one of the most prominent news blogs around?

Are you sure you didn't fall for the copypasta fallacy? A lot of "prominent news blogs" simply copy content from other news sources, and do not have any independent reporters. Only independent reports matter, not the total number of news sources who copied the article from somewhere else (including each others).

[Adventure21c]

One thing says it all:

He has quit on his children by killing himself. For that alone, I can't give this man any credit.

YOU DO NOT JUSTIFY QUITTING in some 15 page rant, on the most important people of your life. So long as you're breathing, you grit your teeth and keep on fighting.

Quote:

I have three things to say to my children. First, Daddy loves you. Second, you are my three most favorite people in the world. And last, that you are to stick together no matter how old you get or how far apart you live. Because it is like Grandma always said. The only thing you really have in this world is your family.

The system may have been broken, but what was more broken was the man who slapped his own four year old and had a wife who called police on him for the incident.

No, the man didn't love his children. If he truly did, he would've persisted. What he loved was the excuse to quit. I've known these kind of men to be sure. You do not immolate yourself over $3,000 that you can borrow for the time being and quit on people important to you. I'm sure there is the other side of the story the man did not tell.

Quote:

The only thing you really have in this world is your family.

This alone tells this man had seriously f'ed up mentality, plus being a hypocrate. THE ONLY THING YOU REALLY HAVE IN THIS WORLD IS YOU. Without yourself together, you can't give shit to other people. You do not draw strength from or get reliance from your family: Your family is for giving and giving only. If you need to really have something as a fallback, then you've already lost.

[Samseau]

(06-28-2011 04:48 PM)oldnemesis Wrote:  

(06-28-2011 06:22 AM)Samseau Wrote:  

Oh shit... haven't seen you in awhile! Just when I was starting to miss you!

You may be surprised, but some of us actually have a life outside this forum

Says the guy with 1300+ posts

Quote:

Quote:

Are you fuckin kidding me? You think those burn marks are spray-painted on or something?

My argument was about the content of the letter, and the details mentioned there. It was not about the fact someone burned themselves, which is something I don't really care about. You know, roughly 35,000 people died from suicide in 2008; I guess they all had motives for that. One more suicide doesn't impress me at all.

Quote:

How about the fact that this story was mentioned all over the local Keene newspapers? This letter was sent in on the same day the burning took place, which occurred in broad daylight and had plenty of witnesses?
Do you think a fake incident would get featured on one of the most prominent news blogs around?

Are you sure you didn't fall for the copypasta fallacy? A lot of "prominent news blogs" simply copy content from other news sources, and do not have any independent reporters. Only independent reports matter, not the total number of news sources who copied the article from somewhere else (including each others).

[/quote]

Why don't you just see for yourself? Tell me how fake it is

http://www.sentinelsource.com/news/local...03286.html

http://freekeene.com/files/KPD_Self_Immolation2011.mp3

http://www.sentinelsource.com/news/local...03286.html


Adventure:

Quote:

He has quit on his children by killing himself. For that alone, I can't give this man any credit.

He was already banned from seeing his children, and on the day he set himself ablaze he was about to be sentenced to jail. Did you actually read anything he wrote?

Quote:

but what was more broken was the man who slapped his own four year old and had a wife who called police on him for the incident.

My dad slapped me when I was younger. I'm glad her never got thrown in jail.

[Adventure21c]

Samseau

Quote:

Adventure:

Quote:He has quit on his children by killing himself. For that alone, I can't give this man any credit.


He was already banned from seeing his children, and on the day he set himself ablaze he was about to be sentenced to jail. Did you actually read anything he wrote?

Quote:but what was more broken was the man who slapped his own four year old and had a wife who called police on him for the incident.


My dad slapped me when I was younger. I'm glad her never got thrown in jail.

I've read the whole 15-page explanation.

Imagine what will go through the children's mind when they find out that their dad quit on them--it'll haunt them their entire lives. Anybody with a sane mind knows staying alive, keeping fighting on will help your children--you truly care about someone, you don't just quit for their sake. Did you carefully read what I wrote, or what the man wrote?

He could've easily burrowed that $3,000 and avoided the jail. He clearly mentioned he's quitting fighting the system.

There're some things very fishy that do not add up. The guy, I'm sure, didn't tell the whole truth.

[Gmac]

(06-29-2011 01:47 PM)Adventure21c Wrote:  

Samseau
He could've easily burrowed that $3,000 and avoided the jail. He clearly mentioned he's quitting fighting the system.

There're some things very fishy that do not add up. The guy, I'm sure, didn't tell the whole truth.

You really don't get it at all. This isn't about the money, it's about the injustice.

[Adventure21c]

Quote:

You really don't get it at all. This isn't about the money, it's about the injustice.

Look, this isn't about injustice. This is about the man quitting on his children, while never telling the whole truth. Read the entire 15-page explanation of his, and give me some detailed breakdown, instead of skimming the surface.

Let's put a limit to playing the victim's game, shall we?


Let me put this in another perspective:

Your marriage is going terrible, your wife divorces you, the system is against you.

Would you and your children ever justify you setting yourself on fire?

Ultimately, this is not a question about the system or the injustice. This is a question about who you are, your true character. Do you feel that helpless against the system? Would you choose to quit or fight on?

In spite of the tragedy that has happened, I can't possibly agree self-immolation was the best recourse.

[oldnemesis]

(06-29-2011 11:23 AM)Samseau Wrote:  

Why don't you just see for yourself? Tell me how fake it is
http://www.sentinelsource.com/news/local...03286.html
http://freekeene.com/files/KPD_Self_Immolation2011.mp3
http://www.sentinelsource.com/news/local...03286.html

Maybe you consider those "prominent news sources", but personally I never heard of any of those sites before.

Quote:

My dad slapped me when I was younger. I'm glad her never got thrown in jail.

Did you get a lip cut when he slapped you? That's what he mentioned; I'd guess it is hella of a slap.

[oldnemesis]

(06-29-2011 01:55 PM)Gmac Wrote:  

You really don't get it at all. This isn't about the money, it's about the injustice.

For the real laws mentioned I don't see any injustice here. He made the kids, he should support them. Now, once he quit, forcing me and you to support his kids - this is injustice.

Most of the story, however, just looks fishy to me, and it sounds more like a conspiracy plot written by "take our country back" lobbyist than a true story. Note that we're supposed to read the last note of someone who is going to commit a suicide. They're typically much shorter, and much more emotional. This one is kind of essay which looks like it was written by a writer, and used some research. There are some true facts, but there is also false information which is carefully hidden/twisted the way that most people, who are not familiar with justice system, would consider it true. As I said, to me it looks like a careful work of some lobbyist. Think of it, how long would it take you to write a solid 15-page article?

[Samseau]

(06-29-2011 04:23 PM)Adventure21c Wrote:  

Quote:

You really don't get it at all. This isn't about the money, it's about the injustice.

Let me put this in another perspective:

Your marriage is going terrible, your wife divorces you, the system is against you.

Would you and your children ever justify you setting yourself on fire?

Ultimately, this is not a question about the system or the injustice. This is a question about who you are, your true character. Do you feel that helpless against the system? Would you choose to quit or fight on?

In spite of the tragedy that has happened, I can't possibly agree self-immolation was the best recourse.

What could he have done for his children? Even if he payed the fines, he'd still be unable to visit them. His children were fatherless no matter what happened.


Self-immolation is one of the strongest forms of protest available, because it is such an excruciating death. The guy is basically saying,

"I would rather die from torture than live under your yoke."

If Tom Ball had any sons, they will grow up to be proud of their old man.

oldnemesis Wrote:

He made the kids, he should support them.

Do you believe you should be forced to support kids that he cannot even see, or raise?

Quote:

Most of the story, however, just looks fishy to me, and it sounds more like a conspiracy plot written by "take our country back" lobbyist than a true story. Note that we're supposed to read the last note of someone who is going to commit a suicide. They're typically much shorter, and much more emotional. This one is kind of essay which looks like it was written by a writer, and used some research. There are some true facts, but there is also false information which is carefully hidden/twisted the way that most people, who are not familiar with justice system, would consider it true. As I said, to me it looks like a careful work of some lobbyist. Think of it, how long would it take you to write a solid 15-page article?

He was a well educated, thoughtful, and intelligent man. That is the kind of men America is willing to sacrifice to the alter of Family Law.

[Lumiere]

As detailed here :

http://www.counter-currents.com/2011/06/...rs-part-2/

[Adventure21c]

OP

I'm going to address your points in the reverse order (, even the ones not replied to my comments).

Samseau Wrote:

He was a well educated, thoughtful, and intelligent man. That is the kind of men America is willing to sacrifice to the alter of Family Law.

I see a genuineness in the letter, and I wouldn't write it off as propaganda or fake. Even if it actually is fabricated, so many of the issues listed ring true.

Samseau Wrote:

Do you believe you should be forced to support kids that he cannot even see, or raise?

Yes, I do believe so. There are certain responsibilities a man he should never quit on. I wouldn't categorize this man as one of those douchebags, but there are some men who'd love avoiding that responsibility.

Samseau Wrote:

What could he have done for his children? Even if he payed the fines, he'd still be unable to visit them. His children were fatherless no matter what happened.


Self-immolation is one of the strongest forms of protest available, because it is such an excruciating death. The guy is basically saying,

"I would rather die from torture than live under your yoke."

If Tom Ball had any sons, they will grow up to be proud of their old man.

It's not that the children need to see their father everyday and spend some quality time together--all I asked was to let them know that there is a man who fought for their well-being, there is a man behind their backs whether he is actually there or not, a man who refused to quit. Qutting in a glorious final act is actually easier than fighting through quagmire throughout years. This guy chose the easier path.

At any given point in time and culture, the system is almost always set up against 'somebody'. This has happened throughout the world at all times, and this particular American/Western machinations exploiting men in divorce and custody battle is all too real.

I know I'm asking for a bit of superhuman here, but I cannot possibly condone being defeated by the system that was unjust and exploitative to begin with. That's a loss.

I would expect this guy or any other guy to beat the system, not succumb to it. Plan ahead, list and calculate the factors of the reality. The battle of marriage and raising children, as it always has been, is a tough challenge.

Look at the Hollywood movie category on the American legal system. It's littered with the unjust legal webs that no ordinary, single citizen can possibly take on, where vast corporate and political interests win at the end of the day. I've watched and analyzed those movies in American history and civic classes. Civic Action with John Travolta, Erin Brockovich, others including the ones that predate the late 20th century.

The forces that want to bully you into servitude always has been there and always will be. It is your job to counter those forces and get what you want and deserve.

I think I can see your view, but when I see this man's end, I see defeat and quitting on the children. I cannot validate that. This guy chose his battle, but this certainly wasn't a winning.

Look at the 15-page suicide note. The man blames everything from his wife, the police, the American legal system, the U.S. government, to feminism--the only thing that's spotless is himself. We know the only place where that kind of self-exemption can lead--failure. He should've sought for solution in himself, not elsewhere, even when others are at fault. There are some things that do not quite add up, and I'm sure the man didn't handle well a few things in his marriage and his life. Not to put all the blame on the man, but I can't say he was fault free.

"Man up, and fight on" is my view--not "you've been fucked by the system, job well done on quitting in one valiant act."

There's always more you can do than quitting. Always. Especially when your causes are just. My heroes persevere rather than quit--so long as you persevere, there will always be another chance.

[oldnemesis]

(07-03-2011 06:48 PM)Samseau Wrote:  

Self-immolation is one of the strongest forms of protest available, because it is such an excruciating death. The guy is basically saying,
"I would rather die from torture than live under your yoke."

Actually this is one of the weakest forms of protest, which basically says "I give up".
If he wrote a letter to every Congressperson/Senator, and kept repeating it, this would be much stronger form of protest, which might have had much larger effect. Even joining Father Rights movement would have a larger effect than his action.

Quote:

If Tom Ball had any sons, they will grow up to be proud of their old man.

Not really. Since nobody would present (and stand behind) this side of the story, his kids would grow up learning that their father was a coward who decided to escape his parental obligations in a really creepy way, which had negative effect on his children.

Quote:

Do you believe you should be forced to support kids that he cannot even see, or raise?

He got himself into this problem by his own actions, and refused to resolve them as required by law. Hence I don't give shit.
What I do give shit, however, is I do not want to support his kids, nor anyone else's kids besides my own. This is why I agree with child support enforcement.

Quote:

He was a well educated, thoughtful, and intelligent man.

My impression is different.
Well, at least he would not have any more kids for the rest of us to support.