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VP In China, Part II

VP In China, Part II

Seriously? Maybe it was just my city, then. The change I witnessed in Shenyang from 2009 to 2015 was unreal.
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VP In China, Part II

It's gotten noticeably harder since those years, for sure, especially in tier 1s like Beijing or Shanghai where every other white guy is pulling in six figures, is 6' 2"+ and has a six pack. But it's still fairly easy.

Venture out and move to a tier two or tier three city and you should have little to no problems.
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VP In China, Part II

I assume that's a bit of an exaggeration?
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VP In China, Part II

Quote: (09-07-2016 01:34 AM)Mr. Scumbag Wrote:  

It's gotten noticeably harder since those years, for sure, especially in tier 1s like Beijing or Shanghai where every other white guy is pulling in six figures, is 6' 2"+ and has a six pack. But it's still fairly easy.

Venture out and move to a tier two or tier three city and you should have little to no problems.

Haha come on it's nothing like that. That contingent exists, moreso now, but it's a small fraction of the expat white guy population.
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VP In China, Part II

U are pulling in $25 000 a month online. What's your job again? I see the majority dudes in China are English teachers. Definitely not getting six figures right now.
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VP In China, Part II

Quote: (09-07-2016 07:01 AM)worldtraveler3 Wrote:  

U are pulling in $25 000 a month online. What's your job again? I see the majority dudes in China are English teachers. Definitely not getting six figures right now.

It sounds like a lot until you factor in taxes. :<

If anyone is planning on going to China to teach, make sure to get in on private teaching. That's where the money is. The schools will just rape you. If you're good, you can make $5,000 or more monthly.

My last year in China, the last family I was working for had a 12,000 square foot house. 10+ security guards, 10+ nannies, a head nanny for the other nannies. Shipped all of their food from America and had it delivered to their house by semi. The mom drove a Bentley (which cost 2x as much as in the west by the way due to tariffs) with a custom paint job. No idea what they did for money but my instincts told me they were mei lao ban (coal mining).

(edit: their house also had a four-story crystal chandelier, a full swimming pool in the basement and a huge aquarium with small sharks. I can put up some pictures of this house if anyone is interested in seeing it, lol. Oh, also an elevator.)

If you're charismatic and good with kids, get into private teaching. Word will spread, I promise. You'll eventually start teaching for the richest families in the area and one of them will no doubt offer to let you live at their house, all expenses paid -- it's called "full immersion", they want their kid to have the best English possible for when they go to some Ivy League school or whatever.

If anyone is heading to Shenyang, I could try to dig up some old contacts.

Another edit: once you do go full time private teaching, make an agreement with a school. Tell them you'll work for free, 4 hours/month. In return, they help you with your work visa. You can't get a working visa unless you're with a school, and the last I heard, they're cracking down kinda hard on that. Ideally you want to work as little as possible with an actual school and work as many private classes as you can. The going rate was $30/hour for private classes, as of February 2015. If you're really good/charismatic you can earn $45/hour or possibly more.

Last edit: if you're really adventurous, and decide you like China, and wanna stay there for a year or two, consider going black once you go full time private. IE, just don't update your visa. That's what I did. Otherwise, you have to constantly fly to Hong Kong to renew your visa, which is a total pain in the ass and expensive. But they might have made the work visa process easier recently, someone can chime in if they have. The police gave me no hassle when I wanted to leave, they simply made me pay a 10,000 RMB fine and that was it.
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VP In China, Part II

Has anyone had any luck consulting in China? Is this possible from a legal standpoint?
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VP In China, Part II

Quote: (09-15-2016 01:38 AM)Suban Shelvey Wrote:  

Has anyone had any luck consulting in China? Is this possible from a legal standpoint?

Yes, but if you're asking that question, you lack the China knowledge/experience to succeed.

From both a legal and practical standpoint, a consultancy is the easiest business to create a legal entity for.

However, even with that in mind, I doubt you'll be of much use to anyone until you've spent at least a couple years in China.

And, assuming that you are successful, you're not going to like living in China unless you're at least semi-fluent in Chinese, so if you're serious about a China based operation, be prepared to spend two years here learning the language and getting acclimatized.

China is a marathon, not a sprint.

I'm the King of Beijing!
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VP In China, Part II

Quote: (09-15-2016 01:55 AM)Suits Wrote:  

Quote: (09-15-2016 01:38 AM)Suban Shelvey Wrote:  

Has anyone had any luck consulting in China? Is this possible from a legal standpoint?

Yes, but if you're asking that question, you lack the China knowledge/experience to succeed.

From both a legal and practical standpoint, a consultancy is the easiest business to create a legal entity for.

However, even with that in mind, I doubt you'll be of much use to anyone until you've spent at least a couple years in China.

And, assuming that you are successful, you're not going to like living in China unless you're at least semi-fluent in Chinese, so if you're serious about a China based operation, be prepared to spend two years here learning the language and getting acclimatized.

China is a marathon, not a sprint.

Thanks.

I've got a few ideas but yeah as you say I'm very green at the moment. I've been learning the language for just over a year now and will be moving over shortly.
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VP In China, Part II

Quote: (09-15-2016 02:12 AM)Suban Shelvey Wrote:  

Quote: (09-15-2016 01:55 AM)Suits Wrote:  

Quote: (09-15-2016 01:38 AM)Suban Shelvey Wrote:  

Has anyone had any luck consulting in China? Is this possible from a legal standpoint?

Yes, but if you're asking that question, you lack the China knowledge/experience to succeed.

From both a legal and practical standpoint, a consultancy is the easiest business to create a legal entity for.

However, even with that in mind, I doubt you'll be of much use to anyone until you've spent at least a couple years in China.

And, assuming that you are successful, you're not going to like living in China unless you're at least semi-fluent in Chinese, so if you're serious about a China based operation, be prepared to spend two years here learning the language and getting acclimatized.

China is a marathon, not a sprint.

Thanks.

I've got a few ideas but yeah as you say I'm very green at the moment. I've been learning the language for just over a year now and will be moving over shortly.

Cool mate.

The important thing about China is that you always need to be willing to learn something new. In fact, for me, the opportunity to learn so much on a regular basis is one of the reasons I enjoy living here.

Have you every heard someone refer to themselves as a USA expert?

Of course not. No one can be an expert on a country. They might be an expert on a certain country's history, a certain industry or something specific, but never an entire country.

Safe to say that no one in the world is a "China expert."

These means two things for you. First of all, you're on the right track. Moving here is really the first step. You have the right plan and the right attitude.

Secondly, there are unlimited niches to learn about and exploits, but only if you are willing to put the effort and time in.

Fortis is in Shenzhen studying the ins-and-outs of one industry. VP is in Hangzhou pursuing learning everything he can about a complete different niche.

I'm in Beijing and have already spent 4 years of my life learning about another industry and have narrowed my focus down to a specific niche that I'm currently designing and testing products for.

Which city will be moving to and how can I help?

I'm the King of Beijing!
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VP In China, Part II

Quote: (09-15-2016 03:13 AM)Suits Wrote:  

Quote: (09-15-2016 02:12 AM)Suban Shelvey Wrote:  

Quote: (09-15-2016 01:55 AM)Suits Wrote:  

Quote: (09-15-2016 01:38 AM)Suban Shelvey Wrote:  

Has anyone had any luck consulting in China? Is this possible from a legal standpoint?

Yes, but if you're asking that question, you lack the China knowledge/experience to succeed.

From both a legal and practical standpoint, a consultancy is the easiest business to create a legal entity for.

However, even with that in mind, I doubt you'll be of much use to anyone until you've spent at least a couple years in China.

And, assuming that you are successful, you're not going to like living in China unless you're at least semi-fluent in Chinese, so if you're serious about a China based operation, be prepared to spend two years here learning the language and getting acclimatized.

China is a marathon, not a sprint.

Thanks.

I've got a few ideas but yeah as you say I'm very green at the moment. I've been learning the language for just over a year now and will be moving over shortly.

Cool mate.

The important thing about China is that you always need to be willing to learn something new. In fact, for me, the opportunity to learn so much on a regular basis is one of the reasons I enjoy living here.

Have you every heard someone refer to themselves as a USA expert?

Of course not. No one can be an expert on a country. They might be an expert on a certain country's history, a certain industry or something specific, but never an entire country.

Safe to say that no one in the world is a "China expert."

These means two things for you. First of all, you're on the right track. Moving here is really the first step. You have the right plan and the right attitude.

Secondly, there are unlimited niches to learn about and exploits, but only if you are willing to put the effort and time in.

Fortis is in Shenzhen studying the ins-and-outs of one industry. VP is in Hangzhou pursuing learning everything he can about a complete different niche.

I'm in Beijing and have already spent 4 years of my life learning about another industry and have narrowed my focus down to a specific niche that I'm currently designing and testing products for.

Which city will be moving to and how can I help?

Yeah I'm going into it with a very open mind, I have a few ideas predicated on my existing skill-set/experience but at the same time I'm more inclined to see where things take me without any preconceived notions.

I will be moving to Hangzhou.I'll let you know if anything comes to mind, I've already got a ton of value from your previous posts/threads on China, appreciate it!
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VP In China, Part II

I've dug up this old thread after reading OP's recent post here where he wrote:

Quote: (12-27-2017 03:59 AM)Vacancier Permanent Wrote:  

After living in China for 2.5 years, I'm seeing more and more the not so pleasant sides of China. The only reason I'm still here is that I'm building businesses, otherwise, I'd be out of here in the next 5 minutes!

Now, clearly VP is still pursuing some business plans in China, even though in the same post he admits:

Quote: (12-27-2017 03:59 AM)Vacancier Permanent Wrote:  

Personally, I'm already looking at suppliers for our brand of products in other countries as we speak as I'm just sick of tired of all the BS that we had to go through just to place one order with them!

When VP originally started this thread, I was somewhat concerned about his purely optimistic tone. There's nothing wrong with optimism, but it won't carry you that far in China.

There's some serious hurdles to overcome to be successful here. I'd guess that most of the people gaining a real benefit from China don't live here and already established a successful company elsewhere before attempting to expand sales to the mainland or had a killer product idea and simply came to China for the manufacturing capabilities offered here, but aren't based here, don't want to be and still view China as an exotic local that they occasional drop into for a few meetings and factory inspections.

The idea of coming to China as an individual to live and improve yourself and (as VP and many others have attempted to do) is a popular one. However, while I know a number of guys who are making consistent progress, it's definitely slow and steady win the race. VP was allegedly somewhat aware of this when he wrote at the beginning of this thread:

Quote: (09-20-2015 05:44 AM)Vacancier Permanent Wrote:  

China is a mid-long term investment (think 3-5 years) that will yield very handsome dividends for anyone willing to put in the time.

My concern with optimistic attitudes towards life and business in China is that people often seem to believe that those 3-5 years will be a continual march forward with the odd setback here and there, but mostly forward progress.

The experience I have had is that if you come to China seeking opportunities, instead of already holding value when you add China to the equation (such as having a line of product designs locked and loaded and investor's money or business startup capital sitting in a bank account), your first 3-5 years in China might simply be an education in what doesn't work in China.

There are only specific circumstances where coming to China is going to benefit a person.

(1) They stay long enough and learn enough Chinese to ultimately come up with product/service ideas that they wouldn't otherwise have thought of.

This is of course all contingent on being able to protect that product or service from competition and successfully marketing and selling the service to the Chinese marketplace without losing one's shirt in the process. I include this on this list, because it is a possibility (and oddly enough, the result that I'm in the process of pursuing), but my estimate is that you're going to need 5+ years in the country before this one becomes a real possibility.

Without a knowledge base that can only built up with long term experience, you're very unlikely to identify and respond to needs in the Chinese market fast that the locals can identify and respond to the same needs. The worst part is insulating yourself again competition even if you do, for which there are some legal and business means of doing so, but that doesn't mean it'll be easy or ultimately successful, especially in a country where there is always someone willing to do what you are doing for cheaper.

(2) When you can earn a better living and therefore (a) live a better lifestyle and (b) put more money towards your hustle(s) by working in China.

I've done this too. The job market in Canada was a joke when I finished up my formal education, so given that I'd already invested 3 years in China at that point and knew how to earn a good living here, simply moving back was the obvious choice. I didn't start a big thread about it, I just did it.

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Those are the only two reasons I can think of for moving to China, other than for a one or two year adventure just for the hell of it or personal development (because you'll probably grow a lot personally from living here).

For anyone else, the best way to figure China into your plans is as a possible manufacturing base or sales market after you have a solid product/business concept or are already running an established business.

This is why I believe that it's risky to see China too optimistically.

VP's original post at the beginning of this thread was very optimistic:

Quote: (09-20-2015 05:44 AM)Vacancier Permanent Wrote:  

China is THE land of opportunties par excellence, in every aspect.

China is happening, it's a land of unlimited opportunities. Whether you're just starting your life after college or you've been working for a few years in the corporate grind, there's a better option and that is to build a real life here in China. In China, even as a relatively young and inexperienced guy, you can get access to or walk your way to interesting and fulfilling positions and career within a short time. Within 2-3 years you can achieve things that you could not even dream of achieving in 2-3 decades in the West. Why? Because China is happening and they are hungry for Western minds, ideas, creativity, expertise and experience.

As soon as you walk the streets in China, you notice an air of excitement around you. You sense the same kind of feeling of excitement that settlers in the New World must have felt at the beginning of the 18th century upon landing in what is now Canada and the US. A land filled with unlimited opportunities where dreams can and do come true. I have rarely been as excited as I am now and I've rarely felt as alive as I have been ever since I arrived in China almost 2 weeks ago. The excitement is very palpable. Not just in me but in anyone who's got any ounce of ambition in life.

China is THE hottest market in the world right now and for the foreseeable future. The locals spending power is exploding, their thirst for foreign goods and everything exotic (read not Chinese) is insatiable. The Chinese have money and they are looking to spend it on foreign goods and foreign expertise. This is where it's GREAT news for us, foreigners in China.

OP also went into quite a lot of detail about all of the jobs, jobs, jobs available.

Quote: (09-20-2015 05:44 AM)Vacancier Permanent Wrote:  

1. Land of Opportunities: Cool, Interesting and Fulfilling Jobs Galore!

I've had way more job offers thrown my way in the 2 weeks that I've been here and even before I got here than in the past 6 months in Toronto! And mind you, these are not just boring, mind numbing, soul crushing cubicle J.O.B.S!

I've had teaching gigs paying 150RMB/hr (31$/hr) for a guy with no prior teaching experience like me. The guy who offered me this gig said after each 100 hours worked, I'd get a raise of 20 RMBS (4 bucks)! So within 3 months, I could be making over 40 bucks an hour just to teach basic English to Chinese people! Looking at my resume, he said he could even get me gigs doing corporate training teaching business english charging a "LOT more than 150/hr".

Got approached by a Chinese company to work for them. Upon meeting with the Marketing VP, and after he explained to me what their business was, which I liked, I told the guy that currently, his company is only exposed to the English speaking market. With my language skills and marketing and business experience, I can get his company and services into markets that he currently doesn't have any exposure to, that is the French speaking market, comprised of 4 of the richest countries in the world (France, Switzerland, Luxembourg and Belgium), not to mention half of Africa. That is a market of about almost 400M people! With Portuguese and Spanish, I can get him into a market of half a billion people in Latin America! Combined, these 3 markets represent a whopping billion people potential new clients! Not to mention the Italian market, another 80 or so million!

As I was explaining this to him, I could see his mind going crazy and his eyes getting bigger and bigger! He said he's very interested and wants me to work with them. His initial offer was a peanuts base salary plus 8% commission on any sales I'd generate. I tactfully counter offered what I thought was a fair deal. He said he'll run it over with the owner first. A day later, he called me, saying the boss accepted and wanted to meet with me to sign the contract!

Another guy, foreigner, based in HZ for a few years, with his own import export company, approached me to help him expand his company into new markets using my skills. Since the guy flaked on me the day minutes before I was supposed to meet him, I've relegated him to the back of the queue for now.

My first question for VP is this: Out of all the opportunities that you raved about shortly after arriving, did any of them pay off in a meaningful way? And by meaningful, where you able to live a genuinely middle class existence by any Western standard?

I actually earn for more money that I think I would earn in Canada at this point in my life, but due to the expense of living in Beijing (where I can arguably earn more money than most places in China, my standard of living is nothing to brag about. It's not bad. I eat out as often as I want to. I've never missed a rent payment, despite living without roommates for the entirety of the last 3.5 years. When I was hustling for as much paying work as possible (back before I reduced my working hours to concentrate on product development), I lived in a very nice party pad (by China standards) that actually made some girls gasp when I walked them into it the first time. But at the same time, this was only possible because I didn't have to pay for a car and just paying rent left me broke more often than I'd like to admit. I've also never paid for life insurance and have some necessary dental treat that I've been delaying because I aside from living really, really cheap for 4 months or not going home to see family once a year, I'd struggle to pay for it.

So to repeat, with all the opportunity that you spoke of so glowingly, were you able to actually reach an income that supported a lifestyle that wouldn't essentially be that of a poor person's in Canada in the last 2.5 years? And by that, I mean a lifestyle involving not living in a substandard apartment, being able to afford a car if you want one, decent expat health insurance, etc.

Because if it hasn't, it might be time to retract your original claims of "all the amazing opportunities in China" because those claims are obviously not worth jack.

Quote: (09-20-2015 05:44 AM)Vacancier Permanent Wrote:  

The craziest thing is that I've had these offers without even trying other than just doing a short introduction on the expat wechat group in HZ through a contact from the Enter China private community! I can't even imagine what I'd get if i were to actively start looking or even better, started attending networking events! It simply is mind blowing!

In 2.5 years, did anything come of this "mind blowing opportunity"?

Quote: (09-20-2015 05:44 AM)Vacancier Permanent Wrote:  

At this time, my main focus is to learn Chinese asap. This would open a whole new world of incredible opportunities, work wise and business wise that I can't even imagine in my wildest dreams.

How words does your Chinese vocabulary currently consist of? Would you rate the challenge of learning Chinese easier, comparable or more difficult than you originally anticipated?


Quote: (09-20-2015 05:44 AM)Vacancier Permanent Wrote:  

[b]What are my goals for my first year in China?

- Being able to speak conversely in Chinese by the end of it.
- Having an ecommerce biz generating at least 5KUS$/month in profits by end of June 2016.

I've already mentioned your Chinese language goal above, but how did the ecommerce biz work out? Are you generating at least 5KUS$/month?

It's only fair to follow up on your initial optimistic statements. Guys reading this thread today deserve to know how optimistic they should reasonably be and you're in the unique position (having carved your initial impressions into stone here in this thread) to follow up and give us an open account of your experiences in the last two and a half years.

My final question is, how many times did an opportunity not work out the way you anticipated and you felt like you were starting over again from square one?

This is an important question, because I think most people come to China expecting their journey to be hard, but to be continually taking one small step after another forward. I suspect that the reality is that many, after a few years of strong effort, simply discover that they've mostly been going in circles.

I'm the King of Beijing!
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VP In China, Part II

Don't have the time to go through each point on the above post but just to answer the main points:

1) Agreed that I was a bit too optimistic at first which was good and not good. Good as it opened a lot of opportunities for me and not good as most didn't pan out as most people are just as you said, talk talk talk and or just expect you to do all the work while they just sit back and collect the cash (both Chinese and foreigners!) and that has been very frustrating, so I learned a valuable lesson that has served me well.

2) When I wrote on the other thread that I was looking for suppliers in other countries, this was for my E-commerce business. To be honest, that post, in retrospect after thinking about it, I kinda regret writing that post as I was in a bad mood when I wrote it. Obviously no country is perfect but despite all the negative points I mentioned on that thread, the pros far outweigh the cons, especially business wise.

Opportunities wise, I'd much rather be here than going back to Canada, that's for sure! As a matter of fact, the only thing I miss from Canada is Family and the abundance of good food from all over the world. I certainly don't miss the long cold winters nor the high taxes or long commuting or the lovely ladies in TO, even less the sick social environment there!

3) Along with the Ecommerce business, I'm also building another business, first in China and then, expanding it to potentially the entire world within 5 years. That is a much bigger and much more high profile business than my E-commerce biz, in an industry where China and the Chinese badly and desperately need foreign expertise and which happens to be precisely, my field. [Image: smile.gif]

4) As I wrote on my initial post over 2.5 years ago, China is a mid to long term investment that will take about 3-5 years to start paying off. I'm on my 3rd year now and that's only now that things are starting to get on the right track as to where I really want to be and what I really want to build and do.

Not saying the first 2.5 years were a waste, quite the opposite as they've been teaching me the indispensable and invaluable lessons required and been the stepping blocks to get me to where I am, be it experience wise or contacts and connections and knowledge of how things are done here. And most importantly, to realize where is the gap in the market that I can fill with my knowledge, expertise, contacts and connections and now, I'm pouncing on them and making them happen.

5) Language wise, that's where I am still at point 0. I tried in the beginning to learn as I did genuinely want to learn the language. However, the closed mindedness of the people turned me off big time that I just didn't bother anymore. However, now, after almost 3 years here and now that I'm building a real business here on the ground, I will put more serious effort into learning Chinese! It's extremely frustrating not speaking and understanding the language here and I can only blame myself for that. I take full responsibility for that and will start a Chinese class shortly in the new year.

All in all, I can safely say and without any hesitation that moving to China 2.5 years ago was a good move on my part. I've met people that have become friends and business partners that I would have never met had I not made the move. It's not just a matter of making the move to China but also to putting yourself out there, attending as many meetings in the industry/field/niche that you're interested in.

I'm an entrepreneur by heart and I have been attending all and any entrepreneurial event that I could find, in whatever city I happened to be at the time. This is how, during a big conference, I met the guy who organized that conference. That guy is a high profile, well known and very respected expert in the entrepreneurial scene worldwide. I offered to help him expand his business in another city and that went well that he offered me to join his very successful E-commerce business and team. So guys, put yourself out there, be social, be outgoing, attend events, and be optimistic and persevere!

China can be as good or as lousy as you make it to be. Depending on how much you commit yourself, how much you put yourself out there. For me, I can say without a doubt that China has been good to me and things can and will only get better from now. Especially now that I am more experienced, not as green as I was when I first came here, now that I have an ever growing Rolodex of important and influential contacts, both local and foreigners.

All in all, China, can be good, but need to be careful, smart and you must be PATIENT. Otherwise, you won't last long here, let alone make it. Find your niche and go after it!

As to whether people should move to China now in 2018 vs say when I did in 2015, I can say that things are different. In some aspects it's harder now, others, it's a lot easier now. Depending on what one is looking to get out of here, why he's considering coming to China and what are his goals. I can write a post another time on the differences between China now in 2018 (almost) and back in 2015 as to the main differences now vs back then, if people are interested.

Happy New Year guys, all the best wishes and Let's Make 2018, THE Greatest Year To Date! [Image: smile.gif]
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VP In China, Part II

Quote: (12-30-2017 04:09 AM)Vacancier Permanent Wrote:  

Don't have the time to go through each point on the above post but just to answer the main points:

1) Agreed that I was a bit too optimistic at first which was good and not good.

It's all about striking a balance. Too little optimism and you'll never too anything. Too much, and you may waste energy pursuing things that are being your reach.

Quote: (12-30-2017 04:09 AM)Vacancier Permanent Wrote:  

Good as it opened a lot of opportunities for me and not good as most didn't pan out as most people are just as you said, talk talk talk and or just expect you to do all the work while they just sit back and collect the cash (both Chinese and foreigners!)...

Very true. While we tend to assume that foreigners in China are more trustworthy than the locals, this unfortunately isn't always the case and it's best to assume that you can trust no one and proceed accordingly. This goes for business anywhere in the world. There's actually a real shortage of people who keep their promises when the going gets tough or even the moment some actual effort is required on their part.

Quote: (12-30-2017 04:09 AM)Vacancier Permanent Wrote:  

...and that has been very frustrating, so I learned a valuable lesson that has served me well.

I think it's a lesson pretty much everyone has to learn the hard way. That's why business success rarely comes easy (not just in China). Deciding who to trust and how to distribute your limited resources is half the battle.

Quote: (12-30-2017 04:09 AM)Vacancier Permanent Wrote:  

2) When I wrote on the other thread that I was looking for suppliers in other countries, this was for my E-commerce business. To be honest, that post, in retrospect after thinking about it, I kinda regret writing that post as I was in a bad mood when I wrote it. Obviously no country is perfect but despite all the negative points I mentioned on that thread, the pros far outweigh the cons, especially business wise.

We all have bad China days. That's why my four pieces of advice for anyone doing long term time in China are to:

(1) Eat a good diet. Really take care of yourself physically (and ideally include a exercise regiment in your lifestyle).
(2) Good position thinking. Acknowledge reality, but don't allow yourself to focus on the negative too much. There's nothing to be gained by doing so.
(3) Learn Chinese. There's no better way to reduce frustration and the resulting bad China days. It'll be very satisfying to your need for identity.
(4) Have a good community. Even just having people you like who you can talk to. Even better if there are established people who can bring you soup when your are sick or families that can invite you over for the occasional home-cooked meal.

I'm convinced that people who do these four things will last FAR longer in China and be happier living here.

Quote: (12-30-2017 04:09 AM)Vacancier Permanent Wrote:  

Don't have the time to go through each point on the above post but just to answer the main points:

1) Agreed that I was a bit too optimistic at first which was good and not good.

It's all about striking a balance. Too little optimism and you'll never too anything. Too much, and you may waste energy pursuing things that are being your reach.

Quote: (12-30-2017 04:09 AM)Vacancier Permanent Wrote:  

Good as it opened a lot of opportunities for me and not good as most didn't pan out as most people are just as you said, talk talk talk and or just expect you to do all the work while they just sit back and collect the cash (both Chinese and foreigners!)...

Very true. While we tend to assume that foreigners in China are more trustworthy than the locals, this unfortunately isn't always the case and it's best to assume that you can trust no one and proceed accordingly. This goes for business anywhere in the world. There's actually a real shortage of people who keep their promises when the going gets tough or even the moment some actual effort is required on their part.

Quote: (12-30-2017 04:09 AM)Vacancier Permanent Wrote:  

...and that has been very frustrating, so I learned a valuable lesson that has served me well.

I think it's a lesson pretty much everyone has to learn the hard way. That's why business success rarely comes easy (not just in China). Deciding who to trust and how to distribute your limited resources is half the battle.

Quote: (12-30-2017 04:09 AM)Vacancier Permanent Wrote:  

2) When I wrote on the other thread that I was looking for suppliers in other countries, this was for my E-commerce business. To be honest, that post, in retrospect after thinking about it, I kinda regret writing that post as I was in a bad mood when I wrote it. Obviously no country is perfect but despite all the negative points I mentioned on that thread, the pros far outweigh the cons, especially business wise.

We all have bad China days. That's why my four pieces of advice for anyone doing long term time in China are to

(1) Eat a good diet. Really take care of yourself physically (and ideally include a exercise regiment in your lifestyle).
(2) Good position thinking. Acknowledge reality, but don't allow yourself to focus on the negative too much. There's nothing to be gained by doing so.
(3) Learn Chinese. There's no better way to reduce frustration and the resulting bad China days. It'll be very satisfying to your need for identity.
(4) Have a good community. Even just having people you like who you can talk to. Even better if there are established people who can bring you soup when your are sick or families that can invite you over for the occasional home-cooked meal.

Quote: (12-30-2017 04:09 AM)Vacancier Permanent Wrote:  

Opportunities wise, I'd much rather be here than going back to Canada, that's for sure! As a matter of fact, the only thing I miss from Canada is Family and the abundance of good food from all over the world. I certainly don't miss the long cold winters nor the high taxes or long commuting or the lovely ladies in TO, even less the sick social environment there!

That's the thing. No matter how much stuff in China pisses me off sometime, I always end up concluding that my life is why better here than it would be anywhere else for the moment and that living here is the best way to pursue my current goals.

Acknowledging that fact makes it a lot easier to stay positive and be grateful for all the good things that I have in my life. If I'm every feeling down, I just need to go watch a street sweeper or fast food service person doing their job for 2 minutes and I quickly become thankful for the great life that I live.

Quote: (12-30-2017 04:09 AM)Vacancier Permanent Wrote:  

3) Along with the Ecommerce business, I'm also building another business, first in China and then, expanding it to potentially the entire world within 5 years. That is a much bigger and much more high profile business than my E-commerce biz, in an industry where China and the Chinese badly and desperately need foreign expertise and which happens to be precisely, my field. [Image: smile.gif]

The longer your ear is to the ground in China, the more of these ideas you'll have.

Quote: (12-30-2017 04:09 AM)Vacancier Permanent Wrote:  

4) As I wrote on my initial post over 2.5 years ago, China is a mid to long term investment that will take about 3-5 years to start paying off. I'm on my 3rd year now and that's only now that things are starting to get on the right track as to where I really want to be and what I really want to build and do.

That's good to hear.

Quote: (12-30-2017 04:09 AM)Vacancier Permanent Wrote:  

Not saying the first 2.5 years were a waste, quite the opposite as they've been teaching me the indispensable and invaluable lessons required and been the stepping blocks to get me to where I am, be it experience wise or contacts and connections and knowledge of how things are done here. And most importantly, to realize where is the gap in the market that I can fill with my knowledge, expertise, contacts and connections and now, I'm pouncing on them and making them happen.

Your problem might become having too many ideas to choose from.

Quote: (12-30-2017 04:09 AM)Vacancier Permanent Wrote:  

5) Language wise, that's where I am still at point 0. I tried in the beginning to learn as I did genuinely want to learn the language. However, the closed mindedness of the people turned me off big time that I just didn't bother anymore. However, now, after almost 3 years here and now that I'm building a real business here on the ground, I will put more serious effort into learning Chinese! It's extremely frustrating not speaking and understanding the language here and I can only blame myself for that. I take full responsibility for that and will start a Chinese class shortly in the new year.

I hope you're successful. But I've seen classes really help very few people to quickly progress. My experience is the best first step is to be able to do something really simply, like order in Chinese an McDonalds. If you can do that, everything else just seems to blossom from that point. Also, high frequency vocabulary. That's what you absolutely need to memorize. Start with a 50 word list, then another 50 word list, followed by another 50 word list.

Quote: (12-30-2017 04:09 AM)Vacancier Permanent Wrote:  

All in all, I can safely say and without any hesitation that moving to China 2.5 years ago was a good move on my part. I've met people that have become friends and business partners that I would have never met had I not made the move. It's not just a matter of making the move to China but also to putting yourself out there, attending as many meetings in the industry/field/niche that you're interested in.

That's awesome.

Quote: (12-30-2017 04:09 AM)Vacancier Permanent Wrote:  

All in all, China, can be good, but need to be careful, smart and you must be PATIENT. Otherwise, you won't last long here, let alone make it. Find your niche and go after it!
Good advice.

I'm the King of Beijing!
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