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The Japanese Military Rises Again
#1

The Japanese Military Rises Again

Link: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-34287362

Japan's Prime Minister Shinzo Abe was successful in pushing this bill, which the Japanese parliament approved today. This was not a surprise as he has been hinting this for a long time. The real story is that this has triggered a massive reaction in Japan. Legislators on opposite sides of the bill actually fought each other inside the Parliament and tons of civilians are demonstrating on the streets. The common sentiment is "It's only been 70 years, there are still old scars from the past within our people."

While I can understand that sentiment (who wants to bring on the risk of getting nuked a second time), isn't it kind of ironic how beta-fied this once super-militaristic people have become? Are they just content to depend on the United States for military support forever? Are there no young patriotic Japanese men present who are willing to die for their country, their people, their culture? Especially in a part of the world where they have two enemies of their alliance (China and Russia) right next door. The Chinese haven't forgotten the Japanese atrocities in WWII and will gladly take revenge if the opportunity presents itself.

Just another sign of a world inching closer and closer to war again.
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#2

The Japanese Military Rises Again

I think the Japanese military "rising" up is definitely due to their neighbors next door. That said, it will take a very long time for Japan to develop any sort of legitimate fighting force.

You do raise an interesting point about how Japan has become so beta. When you think about it, it's like welfare in a way: We promised to fight all Japan's battles for them, so why do they need to have a military? I think it would do wonders for many of the Japanese men who have checked out (Herbivores or something like that???).
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#3

The Japanese Military Rises Again

Quote: (09-18-2015 09:21 PM)Seth_Rose Wrote:  

That said, it will take a very long time for Japan to develop any sort of legitimate fighting force.

Nope. According to this site, Japan currently has the 9th ranked military in the world, behind Germany and ahead of Turkey.

But this probably understates Japanese military strength. Here is a reasonable article detailing how Japan's military might well be able to handle the (much larger) Chinese military on its own because of its significant qualitative edge.

Quote:Quote:

"Japan has the strongest navy and air force in Asia except for the United States," Dr. Larry M. Wortzel, the president of Asia Strategies and Risks, said in a presentation at the Institute of World Politics last September. "They're still restricted by Article 9 of the Constitution, which forever renounces war as a sovereign right of the nation ... but you don't want to mess with them."

Once the Japanese decide to do so, they could also become a nuclear power overnight. And unlike with the Chinese and the Russians, one would have a lot of confidence that all of their equipment would actually work.

Don't sleep on Japan. They don't change for a long time, but when they put their minds to it, they change harder and faster than anyone else. A people not to be underestimated.

same old shit, sixes and sevens Shaft...
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#4

The Japanese Military Rises Again

The JMSDF still refers to itself *informally* of course as the IJN.

I welcome the move as it provides a greater amount of security within the area.
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#5

The Japanese Military Rises Again

Their 'defense force' is actually a pretty well run military complex. Their navy is no joke too.

As a basically homogeneous society, if North Korea does decide its time to play war, Japan has the force, training, budget and will to wipe them clean. I dont think this will sit well with China, but I doubt they will do anything either. Chinese need another cheap, local work force and North Korea will enter the market with $0.18 a day labour rates. Plus Japan, China and even Korea are so entwined business wise its unlikely they would risk any destabilization in the region.
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#6

The Japanese Military Rises Again

Quote: (09-18-2015 09:21 PM)Seth_Rose Wrote:  

I think the Japanese military "rising" up is definitely due to their neighbors next door. That said, it will take a very long time for Japan to develop any sort of legitimate fighting force.

You do raise an interesting point about how Japan has become so beta. When you think about it, it's like welfare in a way: We promised to fight all Japan's battles for them, so why do they need to have a military? I think it would do wonders for many of the Japanese men who have checked out (Herbivores or something like that???).

Do have much knowledge about what you are talking about? You're basically taking an internet buzzword and trying to call the entire country beta.

A country, changing it's policies that it had originally made with the states so that they could actually send their troops across the world to help fight. Is beta, Ok I get it.

Back to your men checking out comment, how is that different from the men in the west who sit on their computers playing video games all night and getting drunk over teamspeak?


As for OP, do you have any idea how super nationalistic some of the people in this country can be? Your broad and overly generalized statements show more of a lack of knowledge about the subject than anything really. The more things change the more they stay the same.

Japan has weak men who are too afraid to talk to anyone, it has crazy bad asses and it has some of the biggest players you'll meet as well. But lets focus on a policy that they were forced to sign after they got nuked. And then they throw fisticuffs in parliament in order to make sure it does get passed.

For fun, here is their neighbor South Korea with their politicians fighting.





I actually wish the politicians in the west would fight for their controversial bills. At least then they would have to be willing to risk injury for their decisions that effect the numerous lives of their countrymen.
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#7

The Japanese Military Rises Again

You're all thinking in terms of Alpha male warriors and old fashioned armies, but really how are wars won these days??

High tech and air power, and what is one of the most high tech countries on earth??

Yes, I think it's possible Japan could develop an armed forces that could render most in the world (apart from US/UK) obsolete with high tech, stealth, information intelligence systems and automation. (perhaps even the worlds first combat ready robot fighting units).

It will be interesting to see what the Japanese come up with.

And yes as said above, if you've ever owned a Japanese built car and marvelled at how reliable and long lasting it is, you know the Japs will make reliable high tech that actually works!
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#8

The Japanese Military Rises Again

The technology gap of the modern era is not the same as it was in the 1930's-1940's amongst the various NEA countries (with the exception of North Korea.)

The technology gap back then was significant..China was basically stuck in the early 1900's during that time with the same strategies. China had a few elite units (mostly KMT) trained in modern warfare but without the same resources while Japan was producing tanks, battleships, and aircraft. China back in the 1930's could barely scrape together non malnourished fighting age men with working rifles. This sure as shit isn't the case today.


Japan definitely has a technological edge but it's not as in past history. The country also has dwindling manpower (fighting age men) sources, weak resource allocation, and most of its industrial capacity is based overseas. Russia and China its two biggest rivals also have plenty of nukes too. Aside from conventional military (which both countries have plenty of recent experience in.). They also understand economic warfare and are quite advanced with cyber warfare. Both of those countries also have agreements with proxy countries in the regions where they dominate. Japan's industrial capacity would be decimated overnight.

A conventional war would be devastating but let's be real here..Japan would still get spanked silly. Anything else is based on past performance which does not guarantee future results. Especially with the very different geopolitical, economic, and military capabilities we're seeing today. IT's a whole different ballgame.

This is just geopolitical maneuvering by Abe. Dude would have to be insane to consider actual war. It would be literally national/cultural seppuku for Japan.

The fantasy of a PS4 Sony Macross Mecha with rail guns rising out of the ocean with the imperial flag draped over his head piloted by a Japanese schoolgirl with a shaved pussy is pure weaboo fantasy.
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#9

The Japanese Military Rises Again

The biggest issue is actually constitutionality. If a government can ignore it's own constitution, it can ignore any part of it. Then you're living in a tyranny.

Ultimately this will have to be stopped by the Supreme court, e.g. a soldier sues because he isn't legally obligated under article 9 to be dispatched to a war zone. However the court is known to be highly ineffectual and will likely rubber stamp it with some sophist bullshit.

The amendment procedure is crystal clear, and the government plays zero role in passing amendments.

Its the age old question. How do good people in general society reign in the sociopaths who wish to dominate them?
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#10

The Japanese Military Rises Again

..double post oops
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#11

The Japanese Military Rises Again

It is a shame that it isn't a condition of this bill pasting that the Japs have to finally take responsibility for their extraordinary evil during the last war. Those in their society who say there are still deep scars are correct, and those scars still exist around the world. My father, born just after the war, still won't buy Japanese products due to the depth and strength of his feeling about their inhumanity during the war years, for which they have never apologised, and which is whitewashed in their history books.

The Germans have dealt with an extraordinary level of opprobrium, far in excess of what any other country, many of whom (Japs included) committed atrocities of equivalent evil. To this day, the Germans are still hamstrung by war guilt, it pervades the national consciousness, and the vast majority of German people, even into my generation, feel a pervading shame. To my mind, for Germany, this is wrong - they have shown 70 years of contrition, and enough is enough. For the Japs, they've never shown a spec of remorse, other than the odd moment of inadequate lip service, such as at the recent VJ Day memorial.

The Japanese military was responsible for inhumanity of a kind that no other power during the war could match, and it's time they took full responsibility. If I were Chinese, I would not forgive, and I would never allow it to be forgotten.
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#12

The Japanese Military Rises Again

I see where you're coming from, but I think it would be a little late for Japan to start acting contrite. What can they do about it really? it's like when Blacks in america call for reparations. I can't, in good faith, ask the average american tax payer to shell out extra dough just to make me feel better about what happened to my ancestors. I don't think it is fair.

I will be checking my PMs weekly, so you can catch me there. I will not be posting.
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#13

The Japanese Military Rises Again

I agree with H1N1. It's also a bit strange to consider Japan a country full of Beta men. There is a big part of the population that is very nationalistic and outright denies any wrongdoing the Japanese did in WW2. Things like the 'Nanking massacre' or comfort women are denied or downplayed. It would be very wrong to call them beta-fied. If they would be strong enough to face up to China I would not know, but there sure is a big part of the Japanese people agreeing with this and being very nationalistic, proud and xenophobic.
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#14

The Japanese Military Rises Again

Quote: (09-19-2015 08:26 AM)Fortis Wrote:  

I see where you're coming from, but I think it would be a little late for Japan to start acting contrite. What can they do about it really? it's like when Blacks in america call for reparations. I can't, in good faith, ask the average american tax payer to shell out extra dough just to make me feel better about what happened to my ancestors. I don't think it is fair.

I appreciate the good sense behind your statement, Fortis, but your analogy is a little off. A more appropriate analogy for what the Japs have done would be if the US had totally denied the existence of slavery, and ensured that it was written out of history books altogether.

I completely agree that there is little point in elaborate self-flagellation by the modern Japs for things done by their ancestors - I don't expect to see hundred's of thousands of them weeping in the street - but national recognition of their appalling actions, and a less revisionist version of history taught in their schools would be a suitable act of contrition that would defuse some of the real animosity that many still rightly feel towards them.

If the US were to brazenly deny any slavery took place on US shores, and insisted that the history of Blacks in America was sunshine and rainbows, I think you'd (rightly!) feel a contempt for a people that could not confront their past and accept a degree of wrongdoing, even if, as you sensibly say, there is little point in attempting financial reparation for what was done by a previous generation.
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#15

The Japanese Military Rises Again

Quote: (09-19-2015 05:52 AM)H1N1 Wrote:  

It is a shame that it isn't a condition of this bill pasting that the Japs have to finally take responsibility for their extraordinary evil during the last war. Those in their society who say there are still deep scars are correct, and those scars still exist around the world. My father, born just after the war, still won't buy Japanese products due to the depth and strength of his feeling about their inhumanity during the war years, for which they have never apologised, and which is whitewashed in their history books.

The Germans have dealt with an extraordinary level of opprobrium, far in excess of what any other country, many of whom (Japs included) committed atrocities of equivalent evil. To this day, the Germans are still hamstrung by war guilt, it pervades the national consciousness, and the vast majority of German people, even into my generation, feel a pervading shame. To my mind, for Germany, this is wrong - they have shown 70 years of contrition, and enough is enough. For the Japs, they've never shown a spec of remorse, other than the odd moment of inadequate lip service, such as at the recent VJ Day memorial.

The Japanese military was responsible for inhumanity of a kind that no other power during the war could match, and it's time they took full responsibility. If I were Chinese, I would not forgive, and I would never allow it to be forgotten.

I suppose the Chinese government owns up to its treatment of it's own citizens during the Cultural Revolution too, right? I'm sure they're a bastion of good old-fashioned "yeah, our bad, sorry".

Sure, the Japanese behaviour regarding denying history is deplorable, but only for intellectual reasons. The attitude of 'never forgive' is sick bullshit that goads people into new wars.

Every baby is born innocent. New generations do not bear the blame for the actions of prior generations. Everyone should just wait for those who were involved to die of old age, shut up about it, and whenever someone attempts to guilt them on the issue simply say "I wasn't there, am I to be held responsible for things that happened when I didn't exist?".

Also name one country around China that likes China. Taiwan has batteries of missiles pointing their way. Vietnam hates them. Hong Kongers hate them. South Korea has them to blame for the humanitarian evil to their north that their own ethnic group has to endure. Lets also not mention Tibet, which is current.
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#16

The Japanese Military Rises Again

Quote: (09-19-2015 10:21 AM)Phoenix Wrote:  

Quote: (09-19-2015 05:52 AM)H1N1 Wrote:  

It is a shame that it isn't a condition of this bill pasting that the Japs have to finally take responsibility for their extraordinary evil during the last war. Those in their society who say there are still deep scars are correct, and those scars still exist around the world. My father, born just after the war, still won't buy Japanese products due to the depth and strength of his feeling about their inhumanity during the war years, for which they have never apologised, and which is whitewashed in their history books.

The Germans have dealt with an extraordinary level of opprobrium, far in excess of what any other country, many of whom (Japs included) committed atrocities of equivalent evil. To this day, the Germans are still hamstrung by war guilt, it pervades the national consciousness, and the vast majority of German people, even into my generation, feel a pervading shame. To my mind, for Germany, this is wrong - they have shown 70 years of contrition, and enough is enough. For the Japs, they've never shown a spec of remorse, other than the odd moment of inadequate lip service, such as at the recent VJ Day memorial.

The Japanese military was responsible for inhumanity of a kind that no other power during the war could match, and it's time they took full responsibility. If I were Chinese, I would not forgive, and I would never allow it to be forgotten.

I suppose the Chinese government owns up to its treatment of it's own citizens during the Cultural Revolution too, right? I'm sure they're a bastion of good old-fashioned "yeah, our bad, sorry".

Sure, the Japanese behaviour regarding denying history is deplorable, but only for intellectual reasons. The attitude of 'never forgive' is sick bullshit that goads people into new wars.

Every baby is born innocent. New generations do not bear the blame for the actions of prior generations. Everyone should just wait for those who were involved to die of old age, shut up about it, and whenever someone attempts to guilt them on the issue simply say "I wasn't there, am I to be held responsible for things that happened when I didn't exist?".

Also name one country around China that likes China. Taiwan has batteries of missiles pointing their way. Vietnam hates them. Hong Kongers hate them. South Korea has them to blame for the humanitarian evil to their north that their own ethnic group has to endure. Lets also not mention Tibet, which is current.

Ah, don't get me wrong my friend, I think the Chinese and many other have a good deal to account for. I spent time at university in China and was appalled at how little they knew about the cultural revolution, and how revered Mao still was. I also agree with you that no generation should have to bear the burden of shame for what a previous generation did, however idealised and unrealistic such an opinion may be.


That said, you seem to be making the point: 'well, other people do bad shit too and don't own up to it'. I agree, but this thread is specifically about the Japanese military, so it is the appropriate place for criticising Japan specifically. To do so is not to absolve other nations of their own sins or poor behaviour.

That said, I would defend the point of view that the Japanese are particularly unrepentant, and were particularly evil compared to any other country participating in WWII. It is one thing for the current generation not to feel they need to apologise (and after all, who is left to apologise to who has actually been personally wronged? Very few people now meet that criteria). However, it is quite another to whitewash history and not face up to the appalling evil perpetrated on the Japanese shores within (just about) living memory. The ignorance of the living Japanese as to the depths of evil plumbed by their recent ancestors is shameful.
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#17

The Japanese Military Rises Again

The Japanese should apologize like Germany? So they can flood Japan with migrants just like Germany, and self flagellate themselves into irrelavancy?

The Japanese gave the US total submission after the US destroyed their cities, including using nukes. Why should the Japanese contrite themselves over useless apologies like a browbeaten sitcom husband?
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#18

The Japanese Military Rises Again

Yuck, more military glory hunting.
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#19

The Japanese Military Rises Again

Imagine a Japanese military modernized for the mobile 21st century - Mitsubishi fighter bomber planes sweep in under the radar and then unleash a swarm of Mitsubishi drones armed with Toshiba micro bombs both HE and Micro Nukes that then using the prevailing winds feeds from Panasonic Satellites begin intelligently swarming hundreds of thousands (millions if necessary) of ordnance packages either HE or Nuke depending upon the targets and wiping out the North Korean military within 24 hours and leaving China shiteing in their boots wonders when they are going to be next - the reserve Solar powered Drones then swarm to solar recharge LZs and then swarm off to the next target.

You know based upon Lexus, Accura and Infinity quality control - the best rated vehicles on the planet exceeding US and EU manufacturers by a long shot - that this new Japanese "defense" technology will work and work quite well... Oh yeah these swarm drones can be hidden anywhere in Japan and its out islands and are immune to a first strike.

There will be no tell tale ICBM launches that trigger radar or satelite warning systems like the nutty nit wit north Korean nuke kooks keep threatening Japan, South Korea and the USA.

NorNok Nuke kooks go to sleep - get swarmed and in the morning the dust clears and no more NorNOK nuke kooks.
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#20

The Japanese Military Rises Again

Quote: (09-19-2015 10:36 AM)kleyau Wrote:  

The Japanese should apologize like Germany? So they can flood Japan with migrants just like Germany, and self flagellate themselves into irrelavancy?

The Japanese gave the US total submission after the US destroyed their cities, including using nukes. Why should the Japanese contrite themselves over useless apologies like a browbeaten sitcom husband?

I was clear that the German's have been forced to over apologise, and that the consequences for that have been serious for Germany.

But again, you seem not to recognise any kind of middle ground as being possible. What I have advocated is that contrition should take the form of TEACHING THE TRUTH in their schools of what actually, factually, historically-verifiably happened, and what was demonstrably, objectively (due to the ability to make direct comparison) more evil and barbaric in nature than the appalling acts carried out by other nations, including the Germans, during WWII.

You seem to be advocating a 'facts are offensive', 'ignorance is alpha' 'Contrition is for betas' sort of philosophy, which seems out of character for a poster I respect.
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#21

The Japanese Military Rises Again

Quote: (09-19-2015 10:30 AM)H1N1 Wrote:  

The ignorance of the living Japanese as to the depths of evil plumbed by their recent ancestors is shameful.

Meh, doesn't surprise me. It's probably a combination of: the culture (negative things are just kept silent about), so many old people, and the highly age-hierarchical social structure. If the country was young, they'd be better able to say "yeah those guys were dicks". With all the old people, a lot of them were actually there at the time.

The biggest problem is still the constitutional one (i.e. that some prime minister can just say 'fuck you' to the constitution, instead of the highly stringent amendment process). What they're teaching in schools is pretty much a non-issue compared to that.
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#22

The Japanese Military Rises Again

Quote: (09-19-2015 10:51 AM)H1N1 Wrote:  

Quote: (09-19-2015 10:36 AM)kleyau Wrote:  

The Japanese should apologize like Germany? So they can flood Japan with migrants just like Germany, and self flagellate themselves into irrelavancy?

The Japanese gave the US total submission after the US destroyed their cities, including using nukes. Why should the Japanese contrite themselves over useless apologies like a browbeaten sitcom husband?

I was clear that the German's have been forced to over apologise, and that the consequences for that have been serious for Germany.

But again, you seem not to recognise any kind of middle ground as being possible. What I have advocated is that contrition should take the form of TEACHING THE TRUTH in their schools of what actually, factually, historically-verifiably happened, and what was demonstrably, objectively (due to the ability to make direct comparison) more evil and barbaric in nature than the appalling acts carried out by other nations, including the Germans, during WWII.

You seem to be advocating a 'facts are offensive', 'ignorance is alpha' 'Contrition is for betas' sort of philosophy, which seems out of character for a poster I respect.

The Japanese do this: http://www.lanternfloatinghawaii.com/







You can only apologize so much before becoming weak. Mao had no problem sacrificing almost as many citizens from his own country as died during all of WWII, including the brutal Korean War directly following WWII. Why would the Japanese show weakness to such a man and his government?

And with the shear number of people that live in East/Southeast Asia, Japan would be overwhelmed immediately with migrants if they went to out group morality and apologies.

[Image: world-population-density-map.gif]

Finally, if the nearby governments became involved at all, Japan would have ceased to exist as a country.

Any sort of higher level morality can never be placed above strategic interests, it can only be used as an auxiliary to those interests, especially when the survival of your country is at stake.


Edit*TLDR:
Japan (and Korea) exist because of their xenophobia and refusal to teach apologetic history, not despite it.
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#23

The Japanese Military Rises Again

The biggest thing to remember about WW2 was that it was essentially the first time (not counting the sino-Russian war, which warned Europe that they were dealing with a different type of warrior) that west and east fought each other.

The Japanese had never experienced POW. Instead they would give their enemy time to kill themselves. Now they had Americans and Europeans as prisoners who demanded honour. But to the Japanese honour meant to just kill yourself. Both sides were confused. And hiding from the Red Cross is nothing new.

I will not defend what the Japanese did to people during their wars, but for other Asian countries to cry about it only shows how gullible the west is. Over the last 5000 years most of these countries tried wiping each other off the map. Then all of a sudden Japan is the monster because of they treated people during WW2.
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#24

The Japanese Military Rises Again

I'm still waiting for the Baghdadis to start demanding apologies from Ulaanbaatar.
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#25

The Japanese Military Rises Again

Complex feelings about this. I love Japan and had a strong emotional reaction to it when I was there, but during WW2 they were certainly as bad (or worse) than the Nazis, which has been forgotten by the West (but not the East). Can't really blame modern Japanese for that, much like modern Germans should not have the guilt they have. It's just a complex thing that resists easy black/white thinking or concepts.

That being said, I'm not sure how useful high tech armies are. I just think we are largely past the WW2 style warfare. Navies are certainly useful for deterrent purposes, but are we going to see naval battles with huge guns and shit? I certainly hope not.
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