[RaulValdez739]

I'll weigh in since I'm also in my mid 20's.

It really comes down to what you want out of life. Do you want to be a corporate drone? Then by all means do a 9-5 job and have your two weeks of vacation. If you desire a Independent location lifestyle with ample travel opportunities, then choose the alternative paths to the independence you desire. You may not make alot of money in the alternative path but at the same time there are no guarantees if you choose a traditional path. Choose carefully and cherish your 20's. You are only young once.

[Peregrine]

People taking issue with my suggestions of ODing at 40 missed my point. It was intended to be illustrative. If you want to party, the worst possible path you could take is to grind away for XX years until you are (probably) 55 or 65 and too old to enjoy a good party. Even going full YOLO and dying at 40 is better. And WalkingMan, I disagree that no one should hope to OD by 40 for any reason. It's not what I want and it's obviously not what you want, but who are we to say that that's not the best way for a particular individual to enjoy their time on this earth? That's why it's so important for everyone to figure out what they want and how to get it. I highly recommend reading the first two sections of Ray Dalio's Principles for more on this topic.

Designate, I agree, with the caveat that a large enough salary can fund an early retirement. I'd rather have 40K with nearly no constraints than 80K in a corporate pen. But 200K? I could live like a pauper and squirrel away the rest. In not too long, I'd be financially independent, i.e. completely free with a reasonable lifestyle to boot.

[WestIndianArchie]

(06-01-2016 04:03 PM)worldwidetraveler Wrote:  

(05-31-2016 04:58 PM)WestIndianArchie Wrote:  

The pay off never came for millions. Though millions still believe that it will, if they just keep working at it.

Most people don't have skills that translate to millions.

Not that the pay off was millions of dollars,

But that the pay off did not come for millions of people.

I thought that was obvious the way I wrote it.

The pay off - the house, the 2 cars, the wife/spouse, 2.5 kids - Millions and millions of people in the richest country in the world have not achieved this despite doing everything they were told to do to get it.'

When you have numbers like that, it's not individual choice or some sort of moral failing that RVF likes to apply to things it doesn't like.

It's systemic. It's bigger than choosing to be a civil engineer and not a electrical engineer.

No one with a history degree expects to be living with their parents in their mid 20's. A person with a business degree does not expect to be assistant managing an Enterprise Rental Car spot.

Most of you guys are young.

I remember when tech crashed and those newly minted CS degrees became hard sells. 2-3 years of not doing much, of doing Tech Support, and some guy younger than you gets to work at a start up because he graduated into a better economy.

Despite you knowing more. The unproven guy gets a phone call, and your resume just sits on monster, getting calls from insurance companies looking for salesmen.

I'm old enough to remember when the oil crash came too.

You guys don't really see how the ladder to success is not only broken, but an illusion.

The same matrix that exists when it comes to banging girls exists for making money.

What you've learned all of your life serves the society, not you personally.

WIA

[WalkingMan]

(06-02-2016 10:53 AM)Peregrine Wrote:  

I highly recommend reading the first two sections of Ray Dalio's Principles for more on this topic.

Sure. I'll check it out.

[AWright]

I'm 25 almost 26, moved to vegas this week and got a place a block off the strip. I'm looking for a career here with my Econ Degree and customer service experience. I'm also looking to goto the night clubs here a few nights a week and party. I almost went the esl/travel route but decided I can international when I'm older and have better career experience.

[Peregrine]

WIA, I agree that it's systemic and that the same matrix exists for making money as the one that exists for banging girls. But are you saying that a young guy can't figure out the matrix for making money in the same way as he can for banging girls? I think the bar was raised for both, but young guys can still get paid and get laid if they hustle and leverage their individual abilities.

Edit: I agree that it's not a moral failing if you gave it an honest shot and get busted out by the dealer. Sometimes you manage to get to 20 and the dealer gets the card for 21. That's life.

[BoiBoi]

You can do both. Even if you are still in college. Just do internships/ jobs overseas. That's what I did.

[worldwidetraveler]

(06-02-2016 11:08 AM)WestIndianArchie Wrote:  

Not that the pay off was millions of dollars,

But that the pay off did not come for millions of people.

I thought that was obvious the way I wrote it.

The pay off - the house, the 2 cars, the wife/spouse, 2.5 kids - Millions and millions of people in the richest country in the world have not achieved this despite doing everything they were told to do to get it.'

When you have numbers like that, it's not individual choice or some sort of moral failing that RVF likes to apply to things it doesn't like.

It's systemic. It's bigger than choosing to be a civil engineer and not a electrical engineer.

WIA

I misread your original post. You are right, it should have been obvious.

The American dream doesn't exist the same way it was when you and I were younger. The days of getting any 4 year degree and getting a decent job have long been over.

I was in the middle of that tech crash you mentioned. I saw the contracts and jobs dried up and move over to India. Before the crash, I was able to throw out a resume and have people calling me up for 100 an hour contracts within hours. After, crickets.

That was the main reason I ended up working for myself and have been doing so for over a decade now. Those skills I learned from my time working on those large tech projects set me up for my own business.

Software will always be in demand. Even when things crash like they did those years back. I would say those kids with computer degrees that had to rough out that crash are probably doing pretty good right now if they stayed in the field.

After the crash, I started learning direct mail and salesmanship. Then I turned to the internet. It took a long time to gain all of those skills.

If it wasn't for that time in the tech field, I'm not sure where I would be. Maybe dead broke in Thailand with a bunch of kids... Which brings me back to my original point.

Quote:

What you've learned all of your life serves the society, not you personally.

I disagree. I don't see how doing my own thing and enjoying the shit out of it is serving anyone but myself. I don't have sympathy for people who can't adapt.

[lavidaloca]

Heres the thing about retiring by 35 which is a dream of a lot of people. The people doing it are almost exclusively couples. Why? Live on one income bank the other.

Saving $1,000 a month is a retirement plan not a retire by 35 plan. Add another 4k or so to that a month and you are in business for early retirement. For a single guy to save 5k a month hes probably gotta make atleast 120k a year before taxes and then live very minimalist. That is not going to be easy for most people.

You need a highly valued skill if you want to retire early.

I've battled the decision to walk away and party my brains out for 10 years travelling the world or work to the point where my investments will be sustainable to withhold the level of spending I wish to make. I chose to work. For me it's paying off. In most things in life there are going to be people who win and people who lose. It's a gamble for most people as to whether it pays off because most people are employees and that places some restriction on how much control of their destiny that they have.

I'd recommend just learning a skill you can do remotely after saving a modest investment portfolio. Spend 5 years save 100k. Invest it in a rental or equities etc. Don't touch it though and go live on your remote income. That seems the most practical way for people to get the best of both worlds to me.

[Travesty]

(06-02-2016 11:08 AM)WestIndianArchie Wrote:  

... CS stuff.

You have mentioned between this thread and others now CS degrees and programming is a commodity.

Please do not scare guys away from something that makes young guys millionaires everyday and a profession that has recruiters calling your phone off the hook once you have one solid thing on your resume with an easy ability to make $120k+ with as little as 3 years experience if you work hard even with an education from a middling school, without needing any post-grad education or debt.

A lot of my lawyer friends or family friends are usually one of two camps: Don't really like their job, or they love it and have no life are unhealthy and are very dull people that bring work all the time.

I would be a talented programmer rather than a talented lawyer any day of the week for reference purely for the lifestyle. One has to do with reviewing rules and arguing about made up rules. The other is going to do unbelievable shit in our lifetime.

I am not talking about Facebook or Google jobs either. There are thousands of companies.

Not to mention the unlimited upside of creating a licensed product and scaling or selling out.

Is it worth even the added bonus of stable high paying employment that is worldwide remote capable? Or no dress code most places. Or the fact once you are good at programming you can do it pretty well hung over. Not the same if you need to be on the phone or in front of people presenting, I've had a face to face customer relation sales job with a tie - it's awful for the long haul.

Or the fact if you enjoy what you work on and are good it really isn't much different than playing a musical instrument or a puzzle game while getting paid.

Tech is invading everywhere we are the last job because we are the job killers. Save for whores.

Only advanced AI will have a chance at taking out the top 20% of programmers from having very lucrative jobs with tons of positions to choose from. At that point 50 years or more from now we won't having a working society anymore. It will be universal wage or death. For now, easy to be top 20% because at least 50% of programmers are horrible at dealing with people, clients, or managing other programmers, and they refuse to keep on top of their skills.

[RichieP]

Programming is decently well paying, for now. And is in demand for now. Probably for a good couple of decades at least.

If you have a talent for it- like if you're genuinely analytical, logical, technical - it's worth going into. (It's *not* worth going into if you arent... then you'll end up like the unhappy lawyer in the example above)

But positioning yourself as a commodity - a cog that plugs into someone elses system - is never a strong long-term bet. Cogs get squeezed, cost-cut, and are highly exposed to supply/demand outside of their control.

However well you can do with that mindset, you can always do better, and for longer, by learning how to capture more value: learning sales, marketing, negotiation, positioning as a profit-center, and "price by value". Going from employee---> specialist consultant ---> business owner who owns a durable asset - agency, product, SaaS, etc.

Still, for smart analytical logical guys with no penchant for soft business skills, programming is a great option and one of the more robust overall. It also does position you well to capture more value later (consulting, agency, building b2b apps) and lends itself well to location independence.

[lavidaloca]

Personally, I'm quite happy as a lawyer though I will admit when I went solo I gained a lot of weight pretty quick from the stress / anxiety although I'm sure thats a thing many new business owners suffer from.

Did it suck going from in shape to out of shape. Sure. But with 6 or so months in the gym I'll be back where I was and making a heck of a lot more money than before. Sucks, but would I do it again? For sure.

With that said, law is not the career to go if you want to retire early. It takes too long in school and is the schooling is too expensive.

It's a tough business where often no one really wins.

Litigation in a nut shell is this

2 people want a full glass of water. The ideal scenario is probably that they each get half a glass of water. Although both sides each want the entire glass.

What typically happens is they fight until theres only 50% of the water left. The lawyer and the court system has drank 40%. They then either settle or go to trial. If they settle they each get 25%.

If they go to trial each risks going very negative i.e. owing a ton of water. One side may get 100% the other side may go -200%.

A lot of lawyers get brought down because of this system where your gain is your clients loss in litigation. I think if you want a nice easier existence in law better to just practice as a solicitor. Being a litigator you have to be very analytical and to see things in ways no one else does. You also have to have balls. If you come across as weak people and people know or think your the type to roll over they will crush you very quickly.

Most lawyers are great at reading the law but not good at creating a piece of art. To be a good litigator you have to read, interpret and then create your own piece of art.

Programming, CS degrees sound like a much more relaxing profession that probably 98% of the population is better suited for.

[RichieP]

(06-03-2016 01:46 PM)lavidaloca Wrote:  

Most lawyers are great at reading the law but not good at creating a piece of art. To be a good litigator you have to read, interpret and then create your own piece of art.

Programming, CS degrees sound like a much more relaxing profession that probably 98% of the population is better suited for.

Programming is equally demanding but in different ways. Great software engineers are as rare as great litigators.

Less stressful perhaps because the job isn't fundamentally based in human conflict. But no less intense. Programming is like doing deadlifts with your frontal lobes all day. It's hardcore.

[worldwidetraveler]

(06-03-2016 01:46 PM)lavidaloca Wrote:  

Most lawyers are great at reading the law but not good at creating a piece of art. To be a good litigator you have to read, interpret and then create your own piece of art.

Yeah, I have seen it in action with a family member practicing law. There is a creative side to litigation which gives my family member a high.

Same with programming. Especially when you start designing the software itself. Many if not most programmers are simply programming off of specs. There is still a lot of creativity when coding but I found a ton more in designing the software.

If you don't design the software properly, there can be huge problems when you continue adding more and more functionality. The last thing you want to do is make a single change and the whole system goes down.

Quote:

Programming, CS degrees sound like a much more relaxing profession that probably 98% of the population is better suited for.

Depends, some projects can be a cakewalk and many are a beast with a lot of overtime and everything is behind scheduled.

One project I was working 60 - 70 hours a week. It was already fucked before I got there. It went on for many years after I arrived. There was a lot of stress which is why I went hourly and was pulling in 6k to 7k a week after negotiations. This was my first job out of college and I worked my ass off. I made myself important in the client's eyes which is why I was able to get that type of money only after a year on site.

Another project was so easy I would leave the site and take a nap at the apartment I was renting. Still a 40 hour work week but not enough work. I think they were used to others taking longer. The problem was the time going by slow and trying to look busy.

[Ostrogoth]

(05-31-2016 04:58 PM)WestIndianArchie Wrote:  

(05-13-2016 04:30 PM)samsamsam Wrote:  

There was an expression I have heard which made sense to me.

Work first, play later
Play first, work later

Whatever you do last, you do longest.

Not saying you shouldn't enjoy yourself when young but unless anyone is expecting to die young, it is a long time that you will be alive.

I worked first, and it didn't pay off.

I've had this discussion with a lot of my peers. All the grades, accolades, and degrees. Worked the big jobs, did what we set out to do leaving college. I'm usually one of the smartest and most educated persons in a room, but all them Science Fair Medals and Fortune 500 internships didn't set me up for life.

The "pay off" never came.

The pay off never came for millions. Though millions still believe that it will, if they just keep working at it.

Instead of all of those hours of test taking and fretting, early morning hours punching out TPS reports, I could have been traveling the world, following my dreams.

In all likelihood, I'd be in the same place economically more or less.

I think OP is right to consider adventure, more so than trying to join the straight life and fail at it like millions of others.

In all likelihood, he'll parlay an education that means nothing into a field that doesn't appreciate his education, a field where he could apply his skills to do an out-of-the box solutions - but can't because management won't let him.

He'll make his rent and car note until he meets a girl, knocks her up, and hopes they can put together enough pennies to buy a house. And then it's really over.

I no longer see a point in joining the rat race. You're surrounded by other rats, and there's no cheese at the end.

There are ways to pursue his adventure and build a solid skill set. We should be helping him to figure that out, rather than send him to the salt mines.

WIA

Just wanted to say this post was mint...

It behooves every young guy to do what he wants, and live where he pleases--not tomorrow but TODAY. Fuck the rat race. Fuck societal approval. The only person's opinions that matters at the end of the day are yours.

There are just too many uncertainties in life to put off your own gratification.

P.S. If you want to live an exceptional life, you'll never get there by following conventional wisdom. Conventions are for lemmings. Don't be a lemming.

[WhatTheFuck]

I've been kind of trying to avoid posting here more, as well as in my other thread "WTF's sober game and approach thread". Reason being I am embarrassed as fuck. Also in regards to the other thread, I am DEFINITELY not sober, but that's okay. I will make this work.

In the last few weeks a lot has fallen apart, and I am back to square one. This career shit is hard, and I'm honestly not confident things are going to get better here in the USA anytime soon. Other countries aren't even a good bet as no doubt they will all follow in the way of the west soon enough.

I removed my life story from the OP, because it was a mess and could identify me based on a bunch of shit. Also I was confused and lost. Basically I went to college to satisfy my parents, plus it seemed like the best option at the time. I got a worthless liberal arts degree, and am now I'm just another victim of the times. After college all I wanted to do was escape, and I've been fairly successful at that, although my resume now looks like swiss cheese. The last several years I've essentially just been alternating seasonal customer service and restaurant jobs with travel. Work part of the year, travel the other.

I moved out of my parents house to a new city to try my luck in tech earlier this year with self taught front end web development skills. I spent 6 months teaching myself html, css, and javascript, as well as doing freelance projects on Upwork. I learnt a lot, but honestly now in retrospect I was probably naive. Iv'e done so many projects for idiots for just a few hundred dollars that were probably much closer to several thousand dollars in work. Some may likely disagree with me, but I believe the days of self taught coders are coming to an end. At least in the near future. A few years ago even 3 month coding bootcamps were landing people 80k/year jobs just like that. Now the money is in running the bootcamps. People are laughing at my self taught skills, at least in Denver. I know my skills are at least worth $15/hr at the very least, probably way more, but that's hard to find. If i could find a legit front end development job for 15/hr I would take it in a second just to get more experience, even though I know that's barely enough to survive in any major city.

Based on a lot of research I've done, we are now deep in the beginnings of another tech bubble, equivalent to year 2000 tech collapse, but probably MUCH worse.

I'll have to decide in the next few days, it's so tough to give up my dream here in Denver, but I'm probably moving back home. It seems ridiculous to grind it out here in the land of minimum wage opportunity. Stronger men than me have succeeded I'm sure.

However, best bet for me at this time is to move back in with my parents in my hometown, put some money in the bank ( significant since I won't be dropping 1k on rent per month), and save up enough to buy some land and build a tiny house. I am literally obsessed with the tiny house movement and getting off the grid.

Maybe i'll report back again in another year.

[RichieP]

Sorry to hear you're struggling. Even though you'd studied hard, honestly it sounds like there's a gap between what you've learned, and what employers want. Why dont you try to get feedback from them from interviews, and also pay careful attention to skills listed in job postings etc.

You could even email say 50 agencies and ask them, short and sweet, what they do and dont look for from a front end dev.

It's not so much a tech bubble, more that there are just tons of mediocre bootcamps now and employers are more aware that many of them dont produce competent developers. See:
https://medium.com/@kenmazaika/the-dirty....fjngmue6g

You just need to figure out what the gap is between what you've learned and what employers are looking for, then build projects that tick all the boxes and showcase your abilities.

[NFallin]

@WTF just went to indeed.com typed in denver and 28000 jobs popped up. Jobs such as custodian positions paying $15-$20. How do things seem so bad?

[Conquerer7]

Great thread. Wonder if anybody that posted their own advice would still recommend to consider taking the path they have recommened?

[qwertyuiop]

In sales. Still happy.

In engineering working hard gets you more work. In sales working hard gets you more money and you can leave early.

[Mochihunter]

Im in the same situation as OP and I already know I want to go to the adventure route. I'm wondering, should I pay off my student loan debt then travel or should, I just go for it and make small payments?

[Seth_Rose]

(03-31-2017 10:31 AM)Mochihunter Wrote:  

Im in the same situation as OP and I already know I want to go to the adventure route. I'm wondering, should I pay off my student loan debt then travel or should, I just go for it and make small payments?

This is a situation I'll face in a few years when I want to quit working and go abroad. Personally, what I plan on doing is to just go abroad and make my typical payments. Why let life pass you by because of some debt? If you won't have enough money that's one thing, but you could supplement whatever income you have with some freelance work, or just put more hours into your business to make up for whatever amount you're paying in debt.

[Jack Of All Trades]

(06-03-2016 08:28 PM)NFallin Wrote:  

@WTF just went to indeed.com typed in denver and 28000 jobs popped up. Jobs such as custodian positions paying $15-$20. How do things seem so bad?

USD or CAD?

cuz if a a low level worker is making that much, I better mexicanize myself to the USA from Canada.

[Off The Reservation]

How about an update WTF -

[WhatTheFuck]

(02-07-2018 09:06 PM)Off The Reservation Wrote:  

How about an update WTF -

Sure, it's definitely past due for my yearly update. I'm very thankful for all the different people who chimed in over the years. It's been a long journey with lots of ups and downs starting from my first post when I was still just beginning to digest the red pill.

When trying to decide between adventure and money there were a lot of interesting perspectives, but I just couldn't get this post by Travesty out of my mind:

(07-09-2015 07:10 PM)Travesty Wrote:  

Your stories sound fun for a guy in his early 20s.

Without building up some personal wealth I don't think they will sound as fun in your early 30s. And much less in your early 40s.

It really resonated with me and as I posted before I didn't want to wake up one day in my 30's or 40's with a bunch of cool stories but nothing to show for it.

For this reason I ended up choosing to pursue money through the career of web development and computer programming. What followed was a long grind where I spent over 2000 hours teaching myself front end web development, and eventually backend with Ruby/rails.

It was one of the hardest things I've done and opened a lot of doors but in the end it drove me back to drinking like a fish. I just wasn't happy grinding out code living in the city and putting the adventure on hold while trying to get meaningful work in the software development industry, plus dealing with endless social justice bullshit. I was so stressed out the past few years I could barely even think about pussy. Not what I pictured my late 20's looking like. I just couldn't picture myself doing it indefinitely for the rest of my life, even with the carrot of eventual remote work being dangled in front of me. By early 2017 I just couldn't bring myself to write another line of code.

I pulled the plug, swallowed my pride and moved back in with my parents. I found the lowest stress job I could that payed okay, driving around delivering food in the restaurant industry. Basically, I put my life on hold for the entire year of 2017 and worked as many hours as possible putting a lot of money in the bank. Saved a lot in the process.

Ultimately, to make a long story short, I've chosen adventure. Will it come back to bite me 10 or 20 years down the road? Perhaps, but I've come to believe that humans are very good at adapting to life's circumstances and while we are still living we will always be able to find a way to make it work. I'm no longer willing to sacrifice my youth in exchange for future goals that may or may not materialize. I've also embraced a very minimalistic philosophy.

The happiest times of my life have been when I am traveling, living in the moment, meeting girls and truly figuring things out on a day to day basis. I'm not worried about the future because no matter what happens I will always be able to find my footing, no matter how bad it gets.

I've now booked a one way ticket to Peru, leaving at the end of the month. It was a sigh of relief when I bought it. The adventure begins once more and no matter what happens I know it will be okay.

At least this time I have a plan, and with what I've learned over the last 2 years about discipline, grinding, making money online etc I have a much more solid basis to work with than all my attempts/travels in the past.

Hopefully this will be the last time I am involuntarily constrained to the west, and as long as I can make the bare minimum money online to maintain my minimalist travels I will be much happier than anything I could do in the US now. With any luck, I will even be able to develop something profitable enough where I will be able to save some money as well.

If all else fails, I will have at least another year or so of amazing stories and adventures that I can keep for the rest of my life. Then I will return to the US, work a seasonal job in a National Park for 6 months and then rinse repeat... Adventure is king in my book, and I've come to terms with the reality of this lifestyle. On my deathbed I will be happy and that is all that matters.

.....
Sidenote:
There is so much value in this thread it is insane, and I think for the sake of everyone it will be more beneficial if the debate continues mainly around the concept of pursuing adventure versus money. I have come to terms with my decisions and am not really looking for too much advice one way or another anymore at least for the next few years, but I will gladly answer any questions/continue to update the thread. Thanks again guys.

It's been a long couple years can't wait to see what life brings me next. Hope to meet a bunch of you along the road in South America.