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Thinking about doing music full time
#1

Thinking about doing music full time

Today is the first day I've ever considered quitting all business shit full time and just doing what I love full time. Music and meeting chicks. At least for 3 to 6 months. I've been doing some serious hardcore planning to see how this would work and the feasibility of it. In order to make this happen, I'd need to be in an area with good public transportation (since I won't initially have money for a car and gas) and would need that transportation to go to areas with large population of international girls (as cost of living in high traffic areas will not initially be possible)

the way i'm doing it right now is looking at each specific project like a real estate property. what is the workflow, process, inspiration for it, labels to send demo tracks to, contacts for each, website, fan base of each, artists to network with, etc. its weird because i'm sorta doing the same thing (other than actually writing and producing music) that i would do in real estate but it's more fun and i'm finding more energy.

As much as I love traveling to other foreign lands, this would not be possible immediately so keeping the Eckhart Tolle Power of Now philosophy, I would want to feel that vacation feeling everyday. Right now NY seems to be one on the list and I would just crash with a friend outside Manhattan. Vegas is another (transportation isn't the best but cost of living is so cheap that being near the strip is an option)

LA itself doesnt have the city feel that I enjoy but it's still relatively cheap. Chicago is also on my radar but if I go all the way out there, I might as well go to NY.

And maybe if I save up enough money, then trek out to another country but in meantime, I can just work on writing tons of music to send out to contacts abroad so will have a "base" when I arrive there.

the way i'm doing it right now is looking at each specific project like a real estate property. what is the workflow, process, inspiration for it, labels to send demo tracks to, contacts for each, website, fan base of each, artists to network with, etc. its weird because i'm sorta doing the same thing (other than actually writing and producing music) that i would do in real estate but it's more fun and i'm finding more energy.
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#2

Thinking about doing music full time

I don't really get it. Do you even have any actual background in music?
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#3

Thinking about doing music full time

I advise doing it full-time after you have already found that it's making you full-time money.

Dr Johnson rumbles with the RawGod. And lives to regret it.
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#4

Thinking about doing music full time

Quote: (05-16-2015 08:54 PM)Biz Wrote:  

I don't really get it. Do you even have any actual background in music?

Thanks for commenting. Been playing for over a decade, played out in diff bands. Used to be one of the top bands on MP3.com for my area until the music industry took their asses out (fuck relying on 3rd party companies)

Quit for awhile because I wasn't getting pussy and the business part was sapping out my creative energy. Decided I would work my ass off to make money and just play/write for myself but in recent months, have gotten deep into the whole Eckhart Tolle Power of Now mindset where we need to just enjoy now, today. So if I were to die tomorrow, I'd like to know that I was playing music at least part of the day vs doing some dumb business bullshit instead of doing what I love.

Quote: (05-16-2015 09:47 PM)RawGod Wrote:  

I advise doing it full-time after you have already found that it's making you full-time money.

I tried that for YEARS but like most success stories, you gotta be in it to win it. Many ppl put in 90-95% of the work but it's truly the extra final % that separates the winners. Basically I was half-assing it, NOT being it. Point being, I don't need to be some international star that you'll know my name, but I want to know that I lived my life on my terms. Who knows? After I die, maybe 2 centuries from now, some future kid will find my shit and then I'll be appreciated haha.. That's a cool thought..

But let's not forget I don't want to be celibate either living on a farm, thus my requirement to live near a high traffic girl environment.
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#5

Thinking about doing music full time

You still haven't said what you plan on doing.

Start/join a band?
Solo artist?
Songwriter?
Engineer?
Producer?
DJ?
Promoter?
Manager?
Talent buyer?
Club owner?
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#6

Thinking about doing music full time

Hey man, I'm in the same boat as you.

Music is my first love.

I wrote songs and played in bands all through my teens.

I then studied classical singing at university.

I worked as a classical singer for a few years in Florida, doing a lot of choir gigs, church stuff, teaching privates, etc.

It was truly a hard hustle, non-stop practicing, crappy pay, ridiculous politics (musicians have some of the biggest egos around).

So I took some time out to focus on business because I wanted to come to music from a position of choice and financial freedom.

Now that it's been about 3 years since I quit music and have made a successful foray into online business, here's my thinking:

1) If you want to succeed in music, it's all on you.

You have to learn how to market yourself, both online and offline, plain and simple.

If you don't understand marketing, buying psychology, sales funnels, social media, branding, copywriting, and other aspects of business, your chances of making anything but a measly living as a musician are slim to none, I don't care how talented you are.

On the other hand, if you're decently talented and know how to market yourself, you only need a few thousand dedicated fans in your sales funnel to make a good living.


2) Forget about the music industry.

Your chances of being discovered or signing to a major label are slim to none.

Even if by some miracle it were to happen, you'd probably wind up owing the record company.

Record co's basically loan you the money to record an album, and then you repay them based on sales.

Since the great majority of artists sell jack shit, they wind up in debt to the record company that funded their recording sessions.

Plus, being on contract and being beholden to others in a creative field is kind of against the very reason we do art.


3) Develop a YouTube presence.

Remember Boyce Avenue, the guys who did a zillion covers and then blew the fuck up?

Youtube.

You know Smooth McGroove, the crazy long-haired cat guy who does acapella covers of video game music?

He makes a full time living doing that goofy shit!


4) Instead of worrying about where you can live with good public transportation and gig opportunities, I'd worry more about finding a place where you can rent a house or apartment where you can play and practice at full volume and do some good recording.

Most of your work needs to happen online, gigs just keep you sharp and tuned into actual demand.


Good luck bro, if you want to hear some of my music, PM me. [Image: smile.gif]
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#7

Thinking about doing music full time

Quote: (05-17-2015 12:31 AM)Fader Wrote:  

You still haven't said what you plan on doing.

Start/join a band?
Solo artist?
Songwriter?
Engineer?
Producer?
DJ?
Promoter?
Manager?
Talent buyer?
Club owner?

Thanks for pushing me to give specifics.

I have a few friends who already tour out every year so I might play guitar for them once in awhile but being in a band is like fucking being married to 3/4 other members. Your best friend can easily end up being your worst enemy as it's easy to get on each other's nerves so I'd be a part time member.

Am feeling more the songwriter tip as I would set up different social media profiles for each genre that I write in, then compile a list of different labels/promoters/collaborators that are appropriate for that specific genre. As an example, I wouldn't want to send a hip hop track to an indie label nor a classical composition to an EDM promoter.

I already engineer and produce my own stuff but I wouldn't want to do it for other ppl. Mad respect for those guys as they bust their asses for little pay and recognition and they're the unsung heroes of most stuff you hear on the radio and on MTV.

I'm also fairly new to DJ'ing but one of my good friends has DJ'd for years so I'd like to do a collaborative live performance with DJ show with him. That would differentiate us from all the other DJs out right now. The challenge is how to make it danceable yet sound live. I've only seen DJs perform with someone who also played an instrument but they were always separate sounding parts. I'd like to fuse them together as one to make it cohesive for a dance/party environment.

No desire to be a promoter, manager or club owner but I do know you have to wear the first two hats at times and also understand/respect the club owner's perspective as he's running a business. I've heard stories of DJs acting like divas when you gotta remember, you're business partners on a certain level. You can't just be a diva artist (in my opinion)without understanding all the components of the business.
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#8

Thinking about doing music full time

Quote: (05-17-2015 12:57 AM)VincentVinturi Wrote:  

Hey man, I'm in the same boat as you.

Music is my first love.

I wrote songs and played in bands all through my teens.

I then studied classical singing at university.

I worked as a classical singer for a few years in Florida, doing a lot of choir gigs, church stuff, teaching privates, etc.

It was truly a hard hustle, non-stop practicing, crappy pay, ridiculous politics (musicians have some of the biggest egos around).

So I took some time out to focus on business because I wanted to come to music from a position of choice and financial freedom.

Now that it's been about 3 years since I quit music and have made a successful foray into online business, here's my thinking:

1) If you want to succeed in music, it's all on you.

You have to learn how to market yourself, both online and offline, plain and simple.

If you don't understand marketing, buying psychology, sales funnels, social media, branding, copywriting, and other aspects of business, your chances of making anything but a measly living as a musician are slim to none, I don't care how talented you are.

On the other hand, if you're decently talented and know how to market yourself, you only need a few thousand dedicated fans in your sales funnel to make a good living.


2) Forget about the music industry.

Your chances of being discovered or signing to a major label are slim to none.

Even if by some miracle it were to happen, you'd probably wind up owing the record company.

Record co's basically loan you the money to record an album, and then you repay them based on sales.

Since the great majority of artists sell jack shit, they wind up in debt to the record company that funded their recording sessions.

Plus, being on contract and being beholden to others in a creative field is kind of against the very reason we do art.


3) Develop a YouTube presence.

Remember Boyce Avenue, the guys who did a zillion covers and then blew the fuck up?

Youtube.

You know Smooth McGroove, the crazy long-haired cat guy who does acapella covers of video game music?

He makes a full time living doing that goofy shit!


4) Instead of worrying about where you can live with good public transportation and gig opportunities, I'd worry more about finding a place where you can rent a house or apartment where you can play and practice at full volume and do some good recording.

Most of your work needs to happen online, gigs just keep you sharp and tuned into actual demand.


Good luck bro, if you want to hear some of my music, PM me. [Image: smile.gif]

Thanks for the post man! Much appreciated. Yeah, for sure, I wanna hear your stuff.

I also know how the industry works and agree that one should not rely on the industry for success. I actually think the way artists can make money now is by touring and performing. In fact, I think DJs have the best deal out of all the musicians because there are more opportunities for them vs a live band. Plus, you don't have to split it with 3 to 4 other people.

I think you have to distinguish which specific genres of music because when I mentioned sending stuff to labels, EDM labels are very much open to that sorta thing. It's very common to have multiple labels releasing many of your songs, ultimately giving you advertising when you go perform. Now with rock, at least in my opinion, has no money from radio and sales but is only through touring and playing out as there are still hardcore fans. Plus, my very first band from over a decade ago was a death metal band, haha. Hip hop, fuck live shows, it's all about beats, selling beats to the next up and coming rapper. You gotta be connected to the connectors to just get your beats to the right ppl to just consider flowing over them. Classical music, I don't even know but film soundtracks seem ripe for that. These are just my opinions but I have a genuine love for all genres/styles of music so would rather focus on just creating, then figuring out where to send it all afterwards. I don't want to treat any one song as too precious in that I'll give my heart and soul on each track, project but if it makes a penny or it makes thousands of dollars is besides the point. The moment I start prioritizing monetizing over creating defeats the whole point of it since music in general is not something you go into thinking you'll make a lot of money from. You go into it because it's who you are. And that's worth more than what any amount of money could buy.

On a related note, it keeps you in "state" which if you're a single guy, helps you meet chicks as I've lived the life where I've been in analytical mode, looking at excel files and became retarded after extended periods and had to warm up and get back to normal when I never got that way when I was playing music full time. Which relates to your point about finding a house to record in. I slightly disagree. I've lived the lifestyle where music was my life but I didn't get pussy and that was a big reason I quit. I think a lot of people have this romantic idea that playing in a band gets you tons of girls, and to a certain extent, that is true but a lot of the girls I am attracted to are feminine chicks from East Europe or East Asia and the kinds of chicks we'd get were indie hipster chicks. Cool to smoke a blunt with or slam a beer but they don't move my nut muscle like a feminine girl from abroad. So I bring this up to emphasize that having that feminine energy (pussy) is extremely important for creativity. Hell, I wrote a freaking classical piece because this Russian stripper said she liked Beethoven! Haha, that's inspiration. Plus, while I am a drummer as well, most of the time, unless it's rock, drum machines are sufficient enough if they're blended with live percussion or just grabbing a sampled loop, eq-ing it and adding an electronic kick produces better results imo over a subpar drum recording setup to digital (drums sound better to me when recorded to 1/2 inch tape)

Lastly as for covers on youtube. I highly agree with you. I actually just read an article about Boyce Avenue here :

http://www.digitalmusicnews.com/permalin...ets-vidcon

Respect to those guys for their success on youtube but for me, doing covers does not inspire me at all. If that ends up being the nail in my coffin for not being successful, so be it, but I don't want to sacrifice my life to play an acoustic cover of a Justin Bieber song on Youtube just to get more views. Now, if there was a way to sample his voice, distort it with some delay and use it as a keyboard sound in some crazy industrial bossa nova fusion house thing, then maybe, but just a straight cover does not inspire me. But yeah, for those of you who love doing that, this seems like a great way to gain recognition and then release your own original stuff. Just not for me.
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#9

Thinking about doing music full time

I worked at a radio statition for 3 years, interviewing bands, attending festivals and booking shows.

All I have to say is that it fucking blows to be a musician, even if you're signed, able to tour and make some money.

And when pay for music falls out from under you, you have very little to fall back on.

There's a few dudes from bands I still see on FB from time to time and despite touring internationally, being signed to a label, they still try to sell their hundred dollar used iphone, plead for people to buy them out of their lease, and have spouses who work normal shitty jobs.

The other month, a band thats featured often in the Rolling Stone, posted a rant, bitching about having maybe a thousand dollars in merch misplaced on the last tour, and now they need to sell it

MC Hammer lives a town over from me, a complete shithole town, on a measly 2 acre ranch.

The lead singer of Yellowcard worked as an arborist for his dad during their hiatus. Tons of former band members go back to the workforce and generally end up on the same bottom rung they started at, popping popcorn or selling cars
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#10

Thinking about doing music full time

Not trying to be a naysayer, but I honestly havent met anyone who has really "made it" financially, no matter how big they got.

That being said, a lot of people found it fairly fulfilling to do music
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#11

Thinking about doing music full time

I admire your tenacity. I have a soft spot in my heart for musicians and the creative process. I'm going to give some tough love, so be prepared:

Here's my advice: have a plan B. A solid plan B. 99.5% of all people in your position will fail. The industry is a cruel beast.

With that said, you need a solid plan A and from your posts you haven't really defined what it is you WANT to do. You're wallowing between many different roles and have no clear direction. So you don't like doing business stuff or engineering. That's fine, however you will need a network of people who are competent enough to fill those various roles you don't like. Is your personal and professional network healthy enough to freelance out those roles to people?

Secondly, you've stated a distaste for the business end of the creative process. I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but any two bit creative individual can write and record a song (and a lot do). It takes a real genius to SELL your product to the correct gate keepers who will be the ones who make you money. This is a real hustle in and of itself. Unfortunately this is what will make or break any creative individual even those who make modest lifestyles.

And finally, what about your lifestyle? Are you comfortable living a meager existence well into your 30s or 40s? That means living in a rough part of town with room mates well after your youth has left you.

The music industry is centered in Los Angeles with a small smattering in NYC. If you want your odds of success increasing significantly you'll need to be in Los Angeles which means you'll be driving a used car. This will be a significant expense as you'll need wheels to get to gigs.

Seriously think about what that means. It's easy when you're in your 20s, but my preferences for living has changed drastically from my early to mid 20s.

It will start getting exponentially harder to get young women as you age. Living the life of a starving artist will ruin your face and body. Obviously careful eating and living can prevent this, but most artists I know are drinkers, smokers, and stay up way too late. This lifestyle will tax your body and your hot rocker bode will give way to a nasty appearance. Game will obviously mitigate this, but it will get harder to game women outside of your age group.

And to close, you shot yourself in the foot when you quit your first band because you weren't getting enough pussy. That is by far one of the dumbest reasons to quit anything. Shame on you!

Yoko did the Beatles in. Don't commit the cardinal sin of letting a woman ruin a band (ps you already did).

Women, money, and fame are rewards for success. When you make your career centered on rewards you will not only not get those rewards, you will fail miserably and be bitter because of it.

Make the hard work your passion and the rewards will come and be welcomed.
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#12

Thinking about doing music full time

I think most artists do an inadequate self-assessment. I think there are more areas relevant than people think about.

1) What is your level of talent, and the talent of those you can get to collaborate with you?
These are two different things. I am unknown and over 50, talented young musicians don't want to have anything to do with me. However, they listen to my songs and tend to give up songwriting when they hear mine, like I gave up practicing scales when hearing someone like Eddie Van Halen.

2) What other competing talents do you have?
If you can make 5x as much per hour doing something else as you can playing covers which you do not want to do, how do you view that?

3) How low are you willing to go?
Many of my peers who were good musicians when I was about 30 were living off girlfriends. If you're attractive enough, have good enough game, you can do that. Do you want to? By the way, two of them are dead from heroin use related disease.

4) Would you do it for free?
I was sort of mad at music while I was in grad school. I almost deliberately didn't play for about three years. But I found songs just came out of me. If you are an artist, you CAN'T NOT do it.
Your talent decides for you.

5) I think if you are willing to , or forced internally to do it for free, then you should think about doing it for money.

Then you come to the "sales funnel" mentioned above which is what I am learning now. I'll probably never make significant money from making music.
I've heard a supposedly Middle Eastern saying to the effect of "Go three days without food, if then you prefer music to food, be a musician."

==

Music is the most important thing in life to me, but I don't think seriously about making money from it , because that's not the purpose of music. The cost of production is near zero now because of computers and good Chinese microphones and instruments, unless you want big band sounds.

I saw Sting quoted as saying " The purpose of music is to make people happy." Sounds reasonable to me. So I believe I should use my talent to the extent it exists and benefit people.

There was an old blues guy, Eddie Kirkland in a college town I lived in-- for all I know he is still out there.
He made very little money but he got to play in Sweden, overseas, had adventures-- you can't buy that with money. Being a paying tourist is a different universe.

But the biggest thing I loved was the quote from a drummer I knew that went with him to Europe--
Eddie was talking about his motivation in music, and he said "I'll play for ONE MAN, I'll play to make ONE MAN happy." He was willing to play a gig with ONE PERSON there.

This man had already reached sainthood, there was nothing further for him to do. He had transcended money. He drove some ancient V8 America car and I would see him sleeping in it after gigs. It had, bizarrely, a TV antenna on the roof. I think he had reached the Tolle state you describe. He WAS what he had decided to be.

===============

It was an important thing for me, was to separate making money from music.

Because paradoxically, when I play exactly what I want, people like it more than whenever I played covers.

I also am good at academics, and it is MUCH easier for me to make money in my profession, enough to travel without working ( super low budget style) than in any kind of music.

Very, very few people have the kind of lottery winning elements in their background that lead to a good living in music. Here are some examples:

Genesis for example, were going to an exclusive school, were really working hard on it together with strong cooperation before the were even 22, with a classically trained keyboardist. they came out with a very respectable progressive rock album before any of them were 23 I believe.

I just read Duff McKagen's account of being in Guns n' Roses, he was from a poor family, but was always working on music stuff from the time he was very young, and ended up in LA with the freakishly talented Axl Rose. Their band was the #1 priority in ALL their lives. They had practice TWICE A DAY.

Brian Transeau (BT) , a seminal electronic musician was classically trained as a child and obviously very talented.

I like the focusing on the spiritual aspect of it, I played my first gig at a high school dance at 17, nothing matches the excitement of writing songs and performing. I have a slight talent, nothing amazing, can't read well, no perfect pitch, can't shred.

But the important thing to me is that even though my talent is small, music is still the most important thing to me in life, the thing that makes me the happiest.
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#13

Thinking about doing music full time

http://celebrityglory.com/danny-brown-ne...nt-rapper/

http://www.spin.com/2012/01/danny-brown-...rap-album/

Danny Brown made 80,000 the year he dropped XXX, which was named #1 rap album by Spin, and #8 of the past 5 years by Complex magazine. Incredibly talented, and still barely out earning the average joe
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#14

Thinking about doing music full time

edited due to privacy concerns

Isaiah 4:1
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#15

Thinking about doing music full time

^I know guys who bought houses off music too, at age 30, and the houses are worth 200k tops. Not saying that's the limit, but it's certainly at the upper end of the curve.

I spent 3 years actually working in the music industry, and whil it was at a rock station, not a pop station, so that definitely doesnt help financially, but its still relatively indicative of the music industry.

And its pretty helpful considering youre listing off people like Skrillex and Zedd but its not as if you know them personally lol
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#16

Thinking about doing music full time

Whether it's trance, house, euro, dubstep, etc, producing quality EDM is more complex than people think.
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#17

Thinking about doing music full time

Hey guys, again many thanks for your comments. I appreciate all of them and for those of you also pursuing it, stay strong. I'll respond to each of you individually. Let me say this again, as I mentioned in my first post, a big part of this inspiration has been from Eckhart Tolle Power of Now which if you are not familiar with, I highly recommend. It’s true outcome independence for me at least. It basically means just enjoying now, LIKE RIGHT NOW. You're not stressing out thinking about the future, like someday I'll be a millionaire, I'll live here or there, etc or worse yet, still living in the past but living now and enjoying now. Today is not just a stepping stone for the future as time is an illusion, today is your life so live it like it was your last. So whether I make millions or make a penny, it's irrelevant because I'm doing what I love.

Quote: (05-17-2015 09:09 PM)CJ_W Wrote:  

Pretty much what Vincent said Especially #2. I know we've talked personally about this before but, it takes YEARS to get from where you are to where you want to be, it Took Kaskade over 15 years! (he makes over 150k a show now but it took him a long time)

Also along with #2 with what Vincent said; Things have Changed now that it was 5-10 years ago. In order to even be looked at by a record label, you have to create your own following and your own buzz. Which pretty much negates the need to send your stuff to labels in the first place. I sent you the youtube vids of that DJ bento guy a while back and he pretty much just travels around SEA doing DJ gigs and making a living doing that. YOu have to do something like that (the professional video compilation he had made) as part of your marketting plan.

But first things first: You have to have good music, and not just good music, Good music that sounds as as professional as the stuff you hear on the radio, this takes a bit of money (like $4-5k to get the right equipment, programs(Daw, masrting program, synth packs), gear(decent monitor speakers, reference headphones, decent computer preferably with an SSD drive and external HD, Audio interface , decent room set up etc etc) etc) and a LOT of time! The learning curve for making songs SOUND good from a sound design(mixing and mastering) perspective is what takes years (5+) to learn. The stuff you hear on the radio wasn't just made in a day, it takes years of mastery to make songs like that that you hear on the radio, not the actual melody and singing, but rather putting all of those elements together in a way that you can still hear all of them crisply and cleanly.

Now I'm not telling you to not follow your dreams, but what I AM saying is don't expect it to happen overnight. It may, or it may not, just focus on enjoying what you're doing and improving at it bit by bit, and understand that it may take time, and be prepared for that. I'm in the same boat, and it's the reason why I moved back to Tokyo, I have an easy, low-stress job(fuck what people say about it, I immediately disregard anything they say after that, as they are now irrelevant to me - this includes online as well) that I enjoy in a place I love. It pays well, and allows me to work on what I need to work on towards my real goals

Now you CAN go to New York and try it out, you may get lucky, but I'd suggest before anything, getting a stable job (doesn't matter what it is, even Deadmau5 was working for an IT company or something before he got lucky getting discovered from making sample packs for sale and jingles for commercials etc. . .)

But since you're in L.A. now which is pretty much one of the major centers for this kinda of thing, and you haven't gotten lucky yet, well you may have the same issue there.

For Lucky I mean this:

Deadmau5 got discovered after writing samples for a company that sold jingles/music/sounds to ad companies, someone heard his stuff and introduced him to someone who signed him

Skrillex Sent one of his tracks to Deadmau5(I think I may be wrong here) and it was great and bam he got it. . .but then again that was AFTER he was doing his rock band for years anyway

Zedd got in from sending one of his tracks to Skrillex(on his myspace page) and that got him signed.

This stuff doesn't really happen anymore as 1)you can't just send stuff to people anymore, I mean Zedd sent Skillex stuff on MYSPACE! that shit is dead now, and even Deadmau5's label wants you to have a following before they decide to move forward with you on anything.

so you have to compete with tons of other people doing the same thing.

2)sound design has advanced in leaps and bounds since then; You REALLY have to be on top of your shit sound design wise or else your tracks are just not going to work, this will take up most of your time when making stuff. . .like 90% of your time. Writing tracks/songs are easy. Mixing and mastering them right is HARD. The same tracks that got Skrillex his fame wouldn't work today sound wise - if you can find an old version of the sprites song that got Skrillex famous you can notice that the sound design on that song is...pretty bad You can't do that nowdays, there are too many people trying to do the same thing, which means you have to make your stuff the top of the top.

3)one thing you CAN do is do what Tommy Trash did: He created a HUGE presence online, had a blog a well followed facebook page, twitter, instagram etc etc, to go with his music (mash-ups at the time) targeted at a certain niche (the mash-up lovers crowd) and made it that way.

To be completely honest with you "Musical experience" as one poster misguidedly asked you for, is not necessary. This is coming from someone who has his degree in Music (I Specialized in Piano Performance, Classical of course) it helps but you can learn the basics on you tube and be fine. Deadmau5 had NO musical training and is pretty much one of the more successful if not THE most successful guys out there, but he based his music on great sound design in a time when that part of music was just getting started (the volume wars were raging pretty hard then)

[Yes Zedd is also a classically trained pianist but 1: he isn't as successful as Deadmau5 is and 2: most of his tracks are I IV V I Verse, Chorus, Verse type pop songs with vocalists now. . .which requires only the basics of music theory, but request the years of sound design knowledge to pull of. . .lucky for him he got in at a point where the labels were doing that for him from the start, same with Skrillex and to some extent Mau5]


Basically all I'm saying is, it will take time, unless you get lucky, but in case you don't you need to be able to have a steady income that supports you until your big break this is true pretty much for getting into ANY form of entertainment, Take Peter Dinklage for example(Tyrion in Game of Thrones), the dude went to an acting college, only to work data entry in new york in his dilapidated, cold studio apartment for EIGHT YEARS before he got a gig that led him to his "big break" a couple of years later(in his late 30's/early 40's!).

A lot of people think that these people just all of a sudden make it and just had it handed to them, without realizing that they were just regular guys trying to make it before actually getting there, some have to live in shitty apartments doing crappy jobs, while others (i.e. J-law and possibly ever female actress ever) had to Ride the cock Carousel of producers, managers, directors etc etc + be hot and beautiful to get where they are.

The silver lining though is:
1) You're already red pill and you know that as a man, your SMV goes up with your age (I guess until 60 or so haha. . .but then, Jack Nicholson) so you can be patient and enjoy your journey as opposed to a woman trying to enter the industry who doesn't want to ride the right cocks/lose enough weight/too old (30's) who's chances to make it become very slim as they get older
2)As long as you have a job, you can support yourself, and as you embark as your journey you can STILL get laid like a rock star if you play your cards right
3)You ALREADY know what you want to do with your life! 90% of guys, even many here don't have that mission, that purpose yet. That is extremely attractive to women as well.

So yeah, just don't give up which ever route you take, and make sure you enjoy the ride.

Quote: (05-17-2015 10:24 AM)Lochte Wrote:  

Not trying to be a naysayer, but I honestly havent met anyone who has really "made it" financially, no matter how big they got.

I have, I've met three people who have "made it" in the industry and talk to them sometimes (very rarely - like only when they're gonna be in town but yeah)

They all travel the world doing their gigs, they all have made songs that have pretty much bought them houses etc

This comment doesn't contribute to the thread in the slightest it would be either to just stay silent and read if you haven't had the experience to back up your words yet. Stop arguing for your limitations.

What’s up man! Hishashiburi! How’s Tokyo? By any chance is this your site?

http://www.tokyonightowl.com/djing-in-to...-get-paid/

Thought it might be but if not, you should hook up with this guy.

As for sounding professional, that’s part of my motivation to do this as when I’ve tried doing this as an afterthought (after work and 2nd priority), I have only been able to capture ideas without the energy and time to really hone in on the minor details that are needed to polish up the tracks to a better level. Hell, I think anybody here who writes and also has a day job that it’s hard enough just to find time to create, much less polish them up so this weekend has been good for me to really dial in on all the settings, equipment setup, etc needed to be efficient in producing good stuff. (ex. Having templates in Ableton that have side-chain compression with drum racks, with 128 samples for each kick, snare, hi hat, ready to tweak and tune depending on the song. Also having an EQ8 with high pass filter on NON-kick and Non-bass tracks and vice versa low pass filter for vocals and guitars to clean up sonic space for low end frequencies and a limiter on the master) Just having all that shit ready and set up shaves 15 min to 30 min off my workflow as opposed to before where I’d actually do it every time I sat down to write anything. But anyways, continuing on..

As for happening overnight, again, relating to my first paragraph in this post, I don’t expect anything to happen overnight because it’s happening right now. The fact that I’m even having this conversation with you and everybody else on this thread is more enjoyment at least means my brain is involved in music vs say, watching TV or bs news. Now, am I against getting better gigs, getting paid and getting laid, of course not, but I’m not expecting it nor am I basing my happiness on it, does that make sense?

As for the label, I also know that’s not guaranteed but again, I’m not RELYING ON THAT FOR MY HAPPINESS. Many years ago, I actually saved up money and took a trip to Cannes in South France for the MIDEM music conference where you can network with all the players in the international music industry and ya know what? For all the time I spent working to save up the money and even the time spent being there, I could’ve probably written 10-20 songs. So fuck it, I’ll email out my stuff because it’s the best way to leverage my time but again, if it happens, it happens, if not, then oh well. I don’t need a label to sign me for validation.

Now the big question is obviously money, how to survive and eat haha. That is the part I’ve been seriously considering and how my lifestyle would be affected. And that’s still the part I don’t have an answer for but I’m happy that at least I’m even considering it vs it not even being a thought at all.

As for NY and LA, I only mentioned NY because I’m a daygamer and NY has better logistics for that along with more international chicks. LA, you gotta fucking drive everywhere and as I mentioned in the LA thread, a lot of hot chicks don’t go walking around LA as much which sucks ass for daygamers so I’ve been considering areas outside of Manhattan where I could be maybe a 30 min subway ride into town. Man, I’d love to be in Tokyo but I don’t have that option right now but I admire, envy and respect your lifestyle decisions as that’s the way to roll. As for LA, I haven’t really put myself out there (yet) because again, my mindset hasn’t been 100% focused. My hometown is San Francisco and I def put 100% years back and back then, I didn’t know shit about “business” and naively thought SF had contacts, but really it doesn’t unless you’re making a fucking iPhone app. But again, “making it” is subjective because freedom to write whatever I want on my own terms could be interpreted as “making it”

Finally, while me and you have discussed producing EDM tracks/DJ-ing, I also want to do other styles of music. I’ve played in indie rock bands, metal bands as well as jammed with hip hop djs/break-dancers so my endeavors aren’t all tied to the EDM world so I’d have to set up different marketing for each project. Luckily, Soundcloud/Gmail/Facebook/etc are free haha so it’s not that big a deal.

Quote: (05-17-2015 11:02 AM)iknowexactly Wrote:  

I think most artists do an inadequate self-assessment. I think there are more areas relevant than people think about.

1) What is your level of talent, and the talent of those you can get to collaborate with you?
These are two different things. I am unknown and over 50, talented young musicians don't want to have anything to do with me. However, they listen to my songs and tend to give up songwriting when they hear mine, like I gave up practicing scales when hearing someone like Eddie Van Halen.

2) What other competing talents do you have?
If you can make 5x as much per hour doing something else as you can playing covers which you do not want to do, how do you view that?

3) How low are you willing to go?
Many of my peers who were good musicians when I was about 30 were living off girlfriends. If you're attractive enough, have good enough game, you can do that. Do you want to? By the way, two of them are dead from heroin use related disease.

4) Would you do it for free?
I was sort of mad at music while I was in grad school. I almost deliberately didn't play for about three years. But I found songs just came out of me. If you are an artist, you CAN'T NOT do it.
Your talent decides for you.

5) I think if you are willing to , or forced internally to do it for free, then you should think about doing it for money.

Then you come to the "sales funnel" mentioned above which is what I am learning now. I'll probably never make significant money from making music.
I've heard a supposedly Middle Eastern saying to the effect of "Go three days without food, if then you prefer music to food, be a musician."

==

Music is the most important thing in life to me, but I don't think seriously about making money from it , because that's not the purpose of music. The cost of production is near zero now because of computers and good Chinese microphones and instruments, unless you want big band sounds.

I saw Sting quoted as saying " The purpose of music is to make people happy." Sounds reasonable to me. So I believe I should use my talent to the extent it exists and benefit people.

There was an old blues guy, Eddie Kirkland in a college town I lived in-- for all I know he is still out there.
He made very little money but he got to play in Sweden, overseas, had adventures-- you can't buy that with money. Being a paying tourist is a different universe.

But the biggest thing I loved was the quote from a drummer I knew that went with him to Europe--
Eddie was talking about his motivation in music, and he said "I'll play for ONE MAN, I'll play to make ONE MAN happy." He was willing to play a gig with ONE PERSON there.

This man had already reached sainthood, there was nothing further for him to do. He had transcended money. He drove some ancient V8 America car and I would see him sleeping in it after gigs. It had, bizarrely, a TV antenna on the roof. I think he had reached the Tolle state you describe. He WAS what he had decided to be.

===============

It was an important thing for me, was to separate making money from music.

Because paradoxically, when I play exactly what I want, people like it more than whenever I played covers.

I also am good at academics, and it is MUCH easier for me to make money in my profession, enough to travel without working ( super low budget style) than in any kind of music.

Very, very few people have the kind of lottery winning elements in their background that lead to a good living in music. Here are some examples:

Genesis for example, were going to an exclusive school, were really working hard on it together with strong cooperation before the were even 22, with a classically trained keyboardist. they came out with a very respectable progressive rock album before any of them were 23 I believe.

I just read Duff McKagen's account of being in Guns n' Roses, he was from a poor family, but was always working on music stuff from the time he was very young, and ended up in LA with the freakishly talented Axl Rose. Their band was the #1 priority in ALL their lives. They had practice TWICE A DAY.

Brian Transeau (BT) , a seminal electronic musician was classically trained as a child and obviously very talented.

I like the focusing on the spiritual aspect of it, I played my first gig at a high school dance at 17, nothing matches the excitement of writing songs and performing. I have a slight talent, nothing amazing, can't read well, no perfect pitch, can't shred.

But the important thing to me is that even though my talent is small, music is still the most important thing to me in life, the thing that makes me the happiest.

I can answer your whole post with your last comment .

“But the important thing to me is that even though my talent is small, music is still the most important thing to me in life, the thing that makes me the happiest.”

Although I would only disagree that your talent isn’t small, it’s you and it’s real.

Oh, one more answer to your question #4, would I do it for free? Yes, because it’s who I am. It’s like asking would you be human for free? Would you have sex with a hot ass girl for free? Would you fall in love for free? Okay, sorry, getting too philosophical but just being honest.

Based on that answer, then questions #1, 2 and 3 aren’t relevant because as long as I feel it and am real about it, then level of talent is perfect, don’t need to have any competing talents because I’m only competing against myself and there is no going low as long as I’m being honest. Also wanna apologize if my cover comment came off sounding negative. From a marketing standpoint in today’s technology economy, that is a great cost effective way to get your name out there but it just doesn’t inspire me personally but respect to those who can do covers well. I might just suck at covers so maybe that’s why I choose not to do them.

Quote: (05-17-2015 09:49 PM)Lochte Wrote:  

^I know guys who bought houses off music too, at age 30, and the houses are worth 200k tops. Not saying that's the limit, but it's certainly at the upper end of the curve.

I spent 3 years actually working in the music industry, and whil it was at a rock station, not a pop station, so that definitely doesnt help financially, but its still relatively indicative of the music industry.

And its pretty helpful considering youre listing off people like Skrillex and Zedd but its not as if you know them personally lol

Thanks for the heads up! Now, if those guys could live abroad in some of the areas that are popular with RVFers, that might be a nice house close to the action but if it’s anywhere in CA or NY, yeah, that’s not gonna buy much if anything at all.

Quote: (05-17-2015 11:23 AM)Lochte Wrote:  

http://celebrityglory.com/danny-brown-ne...nt-rapper/

http://www.spin.com/2012/01/danny-brown-...rap-album/

Danny Brown made 80,000 the year he dropped XXX, which was named #1 rap album by Spin, and #8 of the past 5 years by Complex magazine. Incredibly talented, and still barely out earning the average joe


Yeah, again from a biz perspective, I don’t think album sales are the way to earn much these days unless you’re Beyonce or Taylor Swift. Live music/DJ is where it’s at because that’s something that technology can’t leverage. But album sales are great advertisement tools.

Quote: (05-17-2015 10:56 AM)The Beast1 Wrote:  

I admire your tenacity. I have a soft spot in my heart for musicians and the creative process. I'm going to give some tough love, so be prepared:

Here's my advice: have a plan B. A solid plan B. 99.5% of all people in your position will fail. The industry is a cruel beast.

With that said, you need a solid plan A and from your posts you haven't really defined what it is you WANT to do. You're wallowing between many different roles and have no clear direction. So you don't like doing business stuff or engineering. That's fine, however you will need a network of people who are competent enough to fill those various roles you don't like. Is your personal and professional network healthy enough to freelance out those roles to people?

Secondly, you've stated a distaste for the business end of the creative process. I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but any two bit creative individual can write and record a song (and a lot do). It takes a real genius to SELL your product to the correct gate keepers who will be the ones who make you money. This is a real hustle in and of itself. Unfortunately this is what will make or break any creative individual even those who make modest lifestyles.

And finally, what about your lifestyle? Are you comfortable living a meager existence well into your 30s or 40s? That means living in a rough part of town with room mates well after your youth has left you.

The music industry is centered in Los Angeles with a small smattering in NYC. If you want your odds of success increasing significantly you'll need to be in Los Angeles which means you'll be driving a used car. This will be a significant expense as you'll need wheels to get to gigs.

Seriously think about what that means. It's easy when you're in your 20s, but my preferences for living has changed drastically from my early to mid 20s.

It will start getting exponentially harder to get young women as you age. Living the life of a starving artist will ruin your face and body. Obviously careful eating and living can prevent this, but most artists I know are drinkers, smokers, and stay up way too late. This lifestyle will tax your body and your hot rocker bode will give way to a nasty appearance. Game will obviously mitigate this, but it will get harder to game women outside of your age group.

And to close, you shot yourself in the foot when you quit your first band because you weren't getting enough pussy. That is by far one of the dumbest reasons to quit anything. Shame on you!

Yoko did the Beatles in. Don't commit the cardinal sin of letting a woman ruin a band (ps you already did).

Women, money, and fame are rewards for success. When you make your career centered on rewards you will not only not get those rewards, you will fail miserably and be bitter because of it.

Make the hard work your passion and the rewards will come and be welcomed.

What’s up Beast, thanks for your “tough love” as well haha. I’m going to respond to your post by referencing what I said in the beginning of this post. Appreciating NOW. Failure is not an option for me if I’m appreciating NOW and being myself NOW and loving what I’m doing NOW. If I’m basing my success on monetary value in the FUTURE or amount of girls I sleep with from music IN THE FUTURE, then I’m not really enjoying NOW but working my ass off for a goal that is in the FUTURE so that is not the case with me. When I was younger, yes, I admit it and to a certain extent, it was validation as well. But now, I’m past that. I’m not naïve and wanting to be on the cover of any magazine or be on the radio (which as some of you in the industry probably know,labels pay promoters and publicists with connections to those magazines/radio stations for that) It’s about just doing what I love and I actually think that will make me healthier, happier and live longer.

As for your comment “Secondly, you've stated a distaste for the business end of the creative process. I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but any two bit creative individual can write and record a song (and a lot do). It takes a real genius to SELL your product to the correct gate keepers who will be the ones who make you money. This is a real hustle in and of itself. Unfortunately this is what will make or break any creative individual even those who make modest lifestyles.”

I respect your right to have an opinion but again, that is not my definition of success. Who you consider a two bit creative individual is someone who is actually doing what they love making the world a better place. It’s all perspective brother. I can put on my “business” goggles and say, “the market is saturated” and from a “supply and demand standpoint, this is not a market to enter” etc etc But I’m not playing at that level. I’m happy that it’s easier for ppl to create music. Shit, wasn’t Hitler a painter? Supposed they had Instragram back in the day and Hitler was able to post his shit on Instagram and Facebook and was able to pursue his artistic side so he never turned out the way he did? So the fact that there are more ppl creating now is a beautiful thing.

As for gate-keepers, I’ve got a story for you. I have a good friend who used to always find the coolest obscure bands from Spain, UK, etc and would tell me and a mutual friend. He was a shy guy, did NOT dress cool, just a normal dude, dare I say, that some would even call a nerd, actually not even that because a nerd could even be considered cool in the right circles. He was just “normal” Well, this mutual friend, who was a cute chick, had many cute friends who knew other ppl in hip SF circles who were in the “scene”, dressed hip, went to the right parties, knew the right DJs, etc. And on numerous times, a song or band that my "normal" friend had discovered made its way to this "cool kid scene" that pretty soon, the djs were even playing which then their followers would now listen to (because it was cool) when it all initially came from my "normal" friend. Hell, even the music director of the biggest station in SF was one of the 2nd or 3rd tier followers (for lack of a better term) And I would have to say that maybe 50-90% of the whole scene (I’m being generous with the 50) were just followers, not necessarily meaning bad, but not original either but these kids were the influencers for the rest of the crowd (such as this music director who basically was Clear Channel’s bitch as were all of the major radio stations) which would then trickle down to regular ppl. So I share this with you to make a point that if you think a genius is one who has to work at this level mindset of ppl for approval, then I am and will always be a retard and never, ever want to be a genius. I'd much rather be in the one who has genuine love for a song and not part of any "scene" pscyhcology which as Seth Godin somewhat covered in his book Tribes.

As for getting younger women the older I get, you have a point but I no longer live the stereotypical musician lifestyle. Yes, I’ve done LSD, acid, all the usual suspects and then some but I now eat healthy and rely on meditation/creating music to reach those areas in my mind that I used to rely on drugs for. I actually relate to younger ppl easier when I’m playing music vs working in an office where I do feel old. I’m no Brad Pitt, but my last 3 girlfriends have been 8-13 years younger than me as I’ve found girls close to 30 and above are looking for marriage from guys and having a “stable job/lifestyle” is part of that. Nothing wrong with that but that’s not me. Ironically, I actually asked my ex to marry me so it’s not like I don’t want to commit. I’m just picky about who I want to be with now that I have a better idea of who I am and what I want out of life.

Lastly for your comment

“And to close, you shot yourself in the foot when you quit your first band because you weren't getting enough pussy. That is by far one of the dumbest reasons to quit anything. Shame on you!

Yoko did the Beatles in. Don't commit the cardinal sin of letting a woman ruin a band (ps you already did).”

Haha, good point man. It’s actually more complicated than that (band members were broke and also going to school) so it wasn’t just pussy haha but not going to deny it wasn’t a reason either. I agree with you that a woman should NEVER be the main point of a man’s life, but let’s not pretend that it’s also not important. It’s all balance. I don’t think I should choose one or the other. I think they can actually co-exist and if I found the right girl, I would think she even inspires that in me. And if not, well, then there’s nothing wrong with having fun.

Anyways, thanks again for sharing bro.

Quote: (05-17-2015 10:50 PM)la_mode Wrote:  

Whether it's trance, house, euro, dubstep, etc, producing quality EDM is more complex than people think.

Agreed. What's funny is I come from a live band recording background and the amount of engineering knowledge that even a new EDM producer is way more than majority of live musicians. (ex. frequency range of kick drum. Most edm producers know that kinda of shit where most drummers will be "wtf?") but it's two different worlds. Live music is very much "come into our world and watch us" vs DJs are "come into our world but you don't have to watch us, just enjoy yourself dancing/picking up chicks/socialize with ppl" So because of that, live bands aren't concerned about the production aspect as much as the performance aspect since that's why ppl would go watch a band.

Quote: (05-17-2015 10:24 AM)Lochte Wrote:  

Not trying to be a naysayer, but I honestly havent met anyone who has really "made it" financially, no matter how big they got.

That being said, a lot of people found it fairly fulfilling to do music

I think this post was the best so far in it’s honesty. Shouldn’t do music for financial reasons. But you will feel fulfilled. Thanks man
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#18

Thinking about doing music full time

"Shouldn’t do music for financial reasons."

This has been my personal credo since I was 25 (in 1980). I went back to school AFTER getting a degree in music composition and starving for four years. I went on to a career crunching numbers for the past 35 years - never looked back in regret, and always focused FORWARD until the day that I could retire, write as much fucking music as I wanted, and not having to please some record company suit or film director. That day is now two years away. [Image: smile.gif]
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#19

Thinking about doing music full time

fucksong, I acknowledge you for your desire to want to pursue what your heart desires. As long as you can be responsible about the results, whatever they may be - good or bad, then great.

The Power of Now and many other books that I would place into the "transformation" category is a good book. I don't want to be a downer but I have been around the transformation space (trainings, books, etc.) Many people are on a high, like they feel like they have been unlocked/released but, from what I have witnessed, they eventually get back into their old routine. Back into the drift as some would say.

In LA, people throw around these terms all day long, but they are not sincere about it. They say all the right things and dress so colorfully when they go to Agape and then are assholes again in the Agape parking lot. It is a very different way of being when one truly embraces personal responsibility (which is a big part of transformational training) vs. dropping phrases. They never grasp that they are source and that they are creating all the chaos around them, they try and do a spiritual bypass instead of truly getting into their lives - but I digress.

My point being, while I agree you should live in the present and the past and future do not exist. But, before you take this giant step of doing music exclusively, see if this fire continues to burn so strongly in a month or two. I met a guy who was an amazing musician got a scholarship to USC for music, he said that he thought he would just show up and be discovered but LA just has so many talented artists battling for to survive and make it.

If you are able to be detached from the outcome, then I applaud you in your evolution as a person. If you are cool with never making it and struggling financially, but you are full of joy by playing music, then go for it. I am not saying you will never make it or you will struggle financially, all I am saying is if it doesn't matter the outcome, if your desire is that strong, then fuck it - do it.

I wish you the best of luck on this journey.

Fate whispers to the warrior, "You cannot withstand the storm." And the warrior whispers back, "I am the storm."

Women and children can be careless, but not men - Don Corleone

Great RVF Comments | Where Evil Resides | How to upload, etc. | New Members Read This 1 | New Members Read This 2
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#20

Thinking about doing music full time

That transformative stuff is all fine and dandy until the wheels hit the ground. Like samsamsam said, it's a high.

I would try the: "see if you can go for 3 days without food. If you like music more than you're a musician."

Hilariously, when I was in school I knew a violin prodigy who spent 2 days practicing once and forgot to eat. He said he just got up, washed, and played.

Best of luck.
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#21

Thinking about doing music full time

Any updates? Did you make the move?

Fate whispers to the warrior, "You cannot withstand the storm." And the warrior whispers back, "I am the storm."

Women and children can be careless, but not men - Don Corleone

Great RVF Comments | Where Evil Resides | How to upload, etc. | New Members Read This 1 | New Members Read This 2
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#22

Thinking about doing music full time

I have been working on doing this full time as well. For a lot of rock/pop musicians and even at college and university, the main focus is on getting your band/songs together and hustling as much as you can. I think that's misguided to be honest.

I see that as a bit of a lottery, yes you might eventually write a great song, and get signed up and everything. I'm not denying that it is competitive in the music industry and you obviously have to self promote. But why only go down that route?

I'm just practising and studying hard to become the best musician I can be. I think I've learnt more and improved than all my wasted years in education put together, just from the last few years of my own self teaching.

I think in the past I enjoyed playing music for its own sake, never to show off. In addition I was raised in this toxic, everyone is equal don't show off enviroment. I now realise how detrimental that is to my development, and this generation of musicians. We should all aim to be virtuosos on our instrument and have deep knowledge of harmony and songwriting to arrange and compose our own songs. Not just do our best and then send that out to a bunch of record labels, fuck that.

I think its simple really, become the best, get gigs, get students, get a website and youtube channel to show that you're the best. All of those things will help each other. Promote yourself, not just your band or your songs.

This is taking me hours and hours a day of practice, so in the mean time I'm teaching private lessons at home, and looking into more work as a cruise ship musician. Which means I have to develop my sightreading skills and record some videos to audition for the agencies.

"Especially Roosh offers really good perspectives. But like MW said, at the end of the day, is he one of us?"

- Reciproke, posted on the Roosh V Forum.
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