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77% of Dutch women work part-time. Why is the Netherlands so different?
#26
7% of Dutch women work part-time. Why is the Netherlands so different?
Zelcorpion, zigZag

The Netherlands has an unemployment rate of 7%

[Image: Unemployment_rates%2C_seasonally_adjuste...h_2015.png]

The youth unemployment rate is the lowest of all OECD. (It's even lower in 2015)

[Image: Youth_unemployment%2C_2013Q4_%28%25%29.png]

If you believe the Dutch pension system is unaffordable, you might be right, but this spells doom for the rest of the world. The Dutch pension system is considered one of the best pension systems in the world.

http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/4a86349c-...z3ahmVDsE4

And the system isn't based on the young paying for the old. The government forces people their whole working life to save at least ~1/4 of their income into their pension fund and it is managed by professional funds who assure a fixed interest rate.

All this serious shit makes me feel empty. Here's a nice Dutch chick to make us all feel better.

[Image: Lekker-met-worst..jpg]
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#27
7% of Dutch women work part-time. Why is the Netherlands so different?
7% is 15%+ by the the way it was calculated in 1980. Don't make me laugh. The official numbers are ridiculous. Even the current Gallup CEO told on national TV - CNBC - that if he would question the official government job numbers, then he would "disappear".

http://wallstreetonparade.com/2015/02/ga...jobs-data/

[Image: Gallup-CEO-Jim-Clifton-Worries-Aloud-on-...umbers.jpg]

If you want to believe the lies and propaganda, then fine. I studied economics and was fooled myself by our current system for a long time. Usually it works by omission. Omitting to tell you the truth for one thing.
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#28
7% of Dutch women work part-time. Why is the Netherlands so different?
Zelcorpion,

I'm always interested in widening my scope, but then you must show a more accurate database with better data. It simply isn't there.

You have zero data, just suspicions. And for all I know you may be right. But you should give a viable alternative before you accuse me of believing in lies and propaganda. I live and work in the Netherlands, I follow all the economical news. For years. So, I know what I'm talking about. There's no discrepancy between what I see and what I read.
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#29
7% of Dutch women work part-time. Why is the Netherlands so different?
Quote: (05-20-2015 04:11 PM)Maciano Wrote:  

Zelcorpion,

I'm always interested in widening my scope, but then you must show a more accurate database with better data. It simply isn't there.

You have zero data, just suspicions. And for all I know you may be right. But you should give a viable alternative before you accuse me of believing in lies and propaganda. I live and work in the Netherlands, I follow all the economical news. For years. So, I know what I'm talking about. There's no discrepancy between what I see and what I read.

I don't accuse you of anything.

If you truly believe you are well informed because you read the mainstream newspapers and watch the mainstream TV, then I wish you good luck. At the top end of the corporations and banks I can confirm that hardly anyone believes the crap dished out to the masses - even the so-called educated ones.

http://europeansting.com/2014/01/21/euro...cial-rate/
this is even a semi-official article not telling the entire truth there

This is only one article. Shadowstats by Williams has done more of it - that guy is sometimes hired by banks to teach their own.

http://www.shadowstats.com/

I won't comment on it anymore - you do your homework or you open the Financial Times and let it be done by them. I cannot help you if you actually believe in the official statistics. But on a different note - I just recommend one takes a good hard look at the articles written by economists and economic researchers on it. There is plenty of it - you have to decide based on your own knowledge on what is more believable.
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#30
7% of Dutch women work part-time. Why is the Netherlands so different?
Quote: (05-20-2015 01:39 PM)Maciano Wrote:  

Zelcorpion, zigZag

The Netherlands has an unemployment rate of 7%

[Image: Unemployment_rates%2C_seasonally_adjuste...h_2015.png]

The youth unemployment rate is the lowest of all OECD. (It's even lower in 2015)

[Image: Youth_unemployment%2C_2013Q4_%28%25%29.png]

If you believe the Dutch pension system is unaffordable, you might be right, but this spells doom for the rest of the world. The Dutch pension system is considered one of the best pension systems in the world.

http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/4a86349c-...z3ahmVDsE4

And the system isn't based on the young paying for the old. The government forces people their whole working life to save at least ~1/4 of their income into their pension fund and it is managed by professional funds who assure a fixed interest rate.

All this serious shit makes me feel empty. Here's a nice Dutch chick to make us all feel better.

The problems:

- Youth unemployment is low because they do not include those who are in university system as unemployed, most likely.
- Youth unemployment isn't as important as male unemployment. Unemployed men = no families started.
- Your stats do not include the money spent on immigrants who do not pay back into the system.

All of these problems apply to just about every developed country in the world... which is why DOOMSDAY [Image: lol.gif] But seriously, shit is gonna go broke.

Contributor at Return of Kings.  I got banned from twatter, which is run by little bitches and weaklings. You can follow me on Gab.

Be sure to check out the easiest mining program around, FreedomXMR.
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#31
7% of Dutch women work part-time. Why is the Netherlands so different?
Quote: (05-21-2015 02:30 AM)Samseau Wrote:  

The problems:

- Youth unemployment is low because they do not include those who are in university system as unemployed, most likely.
- Youth unemployment isn't as important as male unemployment. Unemployed men = no families started.
- Your stats do not include the money spent on immigrants who do not pay back into the system.

All of these problems apply to just about every developed country in the world... which is why DOOMSDAY [Image: lol.gif] But seriously, shit is gonna go broke.

Other tricks:
+ Some countries only count the people liable to receive unemployment benefits - when they run out and people are on social security they leave the statistical unemployed
+ when during unemployment a person does one of those inane courses or gets a subsidized enforced job (1 Euro jobs in Germany), then those are leaving the statistic as being "employed" - usually 10-40% of people are always on those kind of measures at any given time
+ many countries have also started counting part-time jobs as full time or even counted 2 part times as 2 jobs even when one person was just doing those jobs
+ NL as well as other countries are guilty of counting all those seasonal minimum or sub-minimum wage workers as jobs (of course they are, but they don't account for seasonality of it or net income)

Japan's "low unemployment" can be explained like that in recent years:

[Image: japan%20part%20time%20workers_0.jpg]

Statistics should be done in a way as to count the full number of 40 hour jobs in a given economy done by one person. That should count as one job. If that person works 100 hours / week and 3 jobs, then that should be just counted as overtime. If you accounted only for 40 hour jobs in the economy (with two 20-hour part-timers being counted as one job), then the unemployment rate in almost every Western country would be 10-40%. Currently in the West there is also the huge number of students - especially in the EU, where studies cost little or nothing, you find young folk studying until their 30s (and not for medicine). That also hides a lot of unemployment there.

Nah - the statistics are all fake and the CEO of Gallup is right - he would disappear if he ever questioned those stats in an official statement by his company.

I have talked to people who worked in the 1970s in countries like Germany and Austria with actual 3% unemployment - 3-4% back then meant -13% in current statistics. The companies treated every employee with utmost care, because they were afraid they would leave them. Some industries had to raise wages tremendously back then facilitating the high standard of living the Germans had in the 1980s. And no - this is not communism. Our economic system works best in a balance where the interest of entrepreneurs and consumers are being met equally - Henry Ford understood that doubling the wages of his workers at one time.

Ah well - nuff said.
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#32
7% of Dutch women work part-time. Why is the Netherlands so different?
"Youth unemployment is low because they do not include those who are in university system as unemployed, most likely."

Partly. But Dutch youth unemployment is low because there's an adjusted minimum wage for young people. All of the supermarket, fastfood chains and retail is being manned by students because of this.

"Youth unemployment isn't as important as male unemployment. Unemployed men = no families started."

Male unemployment is a problem, as it is in every country, but even today it's only 10% in the younger cohorts (15-27yrs). It's mostly concentrated among the low/non-educated. And seriously, although I wish the low/non-educated all the best, they should take care of themselves first, before they ever think about having a family. Actually, part-time job availability should be a fantastic opportunity for a society that has many unemployed young men.

http://jeugdmonitor.cbs.nl/nl-nl/indicat...e-vrouwen/

"Your stats do not include the money spent on immigrants who do not pay back into the system."

What does that have to do with parttime work not being affordable? The Dutch pension systems is only partly socialized. The state sanctions you a state pension (AOW) and the state forces people to save the other larger part themselves -- about 25% of income. So, even if the state would collapse, you'd still have your own pension part.

"All of these problems apply to just about every developed country in the world... which is why DOOMSDAY Laugh But seriously, shit is gonna go broke."

Maybe. But the developed countries have been frontrunners for centuries. I'm not worried about the Netherlands or any Western frontrunner collapsing any time soon. Here's the states in default list since 1800. The only time the Netherlands was in default was during the French occupation.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CAyPr1HU8AMyF9I.png
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#33
7% of Dutch women work part-time. Why is the Netherlands so different?
As good as every kid in the Netherlands aged 16> and student has a part time job, apart of several immigrant groups that have greater youth unemployment and perhaps in some rich towns kids don't work as much (however the norm is that rich kids also have part time jobs).

To compare with here in Spain, where not many students have a job.

Some other interesting chart: http://www.financialsense.com/sites/defa...ations.png

And foreigners report that the Dutch people seem to have their lifestyles in order. You get quite some vacation time and work hours are not that long as compared with other countries. In other words, the 'perceived lifestyle' of the Dutch as perceived by foreigners is considered attractive.

This is relevant: http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archives/20...s_than_an/
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#34
7% of Dutch women work part-time. Why is the Netherlands so different?
Quote: (05-21-2015 01:39 PM)Maciano Wrote:  

"Youth unemployment is low because they do not include those who are in university system as unemployed, most likely."

Partly. But Dutch youth unemployment is low because there's an adjusted minimum wage for young people. All of the supermarket, fastfood chains and retail is being manned by students because of this.

People working at supermarkets are counted as employed? [Image: lol.gif] What a meaningful metric.

Quote:Quote:

"Youth unemployment isn't as important as male unemployment. Unemployed men = no families started."

Male unemployment is a problem, as it is in every country, but even today it's only 10% in the younger cohorts (15-27yrs). It's mostly concentrated among the low/non-educated. And seriously, although I wish the low/non-educated all the best, they should take care of themselves first, before they ever think about having a family. Actually, part-time job availability should be a fantastic opportunity for a society that has many unemployed young men.

http://jeugdmonitor.cbs.nl/nl-nl/indicat...e-vrouwen/

Again, this number is bullshit and is revealed by the low birthrates. If men were meaningfully employed they would be getting married and buying houses to start families. The lack of population growth tells everything you need to know. It's obvious the stats are meaningless when supermarket part-time employees are counted as employed.

Quote:Quote:

"All of these problems apply to just about every developed country in the world... which is why DOOMSDAY Laugh But seriously, shit is gonna go broke."

Maybe. But the developed countries have been frontrunners for centuries. I'm not worried about the Netherlands or any Western frontrunner collapsing any time soon. Here's the states in default list since 1800. The only time the Netherlands was in default was during the French occupation.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CAyPr1HU8AMyF9I.png

Trying to compare the last 200 years of Europe to the current situation pretty much reveals why the continent is in a world of shit:

- No more Christ which once guided relations between men and women.
- Mass immigration is gonna flood the workforce with millions of unemployable people that can only be paid for by the taxpayer, which means higher and higher endless taxes.
- Endless taxes = even lower birthrates.
- Near-zero birthrates = no future taxpayers.

Of course, the Netherlands may fare the best out of Europe (or one of the best) because they are a strong family of people. The Dutch "bible-belt" still has strong birthrates and culture even if the Dutch cities become the next Marseille.

But to think the Dutch will be completely spared of the coming dark-ages seems a bit naive.

Contributor at Return of Kings.  I got banned from twatter, which is run by little bitches and weaklings. You can follow me on Gab.

Be sure to check out the easiest mining program around, FreedomXMR.
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#35
7% of Dutch women work part-time. Why is the Netherlands so different?
The breed of feminism is also different in Scandinavian countries or Netherlands. If you wanted to use the term "empowered woman," a woman from those countries would be much better described by this term than an American woman. "Empowered woman" in the end is an oxymoron.
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#36
7% of Dutch women work part-time. Why is the Netherlands so different?
Netherlands fares better than other countries, but is not immune to the usual destructive tendencies. They have various regulations in place which makes it difficult for any new immigrant - especially a qualified EU immigrant - to get any kind of white collar job. But of course those regulations are not how the EU does business and are being dismantled step by step.

7,8% official unemployment is crap.
I know the situation well in a country like Austria with an even lower unemployment rate. The UK and AT had both 5,5% according to that idiotic statistic. What does that mean for the common man? For example it means that for entry level positions for business degree graduates companies receive 1000-2000 applications. Practically all of them fit the qualifications. In the US they recently had a stable janitor position at a school and had thousands of interested parties.

[Image: giphy.gif]
Willie's job is now the new American Dream.

And I am old enough to remember the situation in the 1990s and even having witnessed the stuff in the 1980s as I grew up and saw people working. Since I did that both in the EU as well as in the US I had a good idea what most people went through. It was much easier to find employment or negotiate salaries. Nowadays I just talk with HR managers - those that are not Millennial Bitterbitches wtih zero experience know what is going on out there.

And while Wallstreet Playboy's "Enjoy the Incline" sure has some merit in so far that it is possible to make dough and achieve success, when aggregate disposable income and living standard for most of the population is falling, then sooner or later it will impact those "incliners" too. Sure - you may have a Dickensian economy and be one of the profiteers from it, but it just narrows down constantly. The official unemployment numbers are not only false, but actually fraudulent. But most of what is going on in our economic system is that way, so no surprise.
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#37
7% of Dutch women work part-time. Why is the Netherlands so different?
^You're 100% right. But there's little point harping on the gradual decline of societies and economies around us.

There's still opportunity out there, albeit less and less in the traditional 9-5 framework. Start your own business. Look at the problems, and offer solutions. The ingredients for success haven't changed since the 1980s. If anything, I'd say there's more opportunity now than ever before for intelligent, ambitious men.

There's $16 trillion dollars swashing around in the U.S economy alone. How can you NOT make money? That's the proper mindset.
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#38
7% of Dutch women work part-time. Why is the Netherlands so different?
This whole economic idea that intelligent people need to be producing more babies is completely WRONG.

It's not that intelligent people need to be producing more babies. Not-so-intelligent (STUPID) people need to be producing less.

We all know that's not going to happen, so some straight up fascist shit has to happen.

Dutch are probably the way they are because they are continental; across the border from Belgium (super relaxed country) and France (über relaxed country). Also, the Dutch and Germans are as different as the Jews and Arabs (both Semites, supposedly, but different approach to life).

In any case, I've met many Dutch people through out my life, and they are some of the most annoying sons of bitches I've ever met, but that's probably why they're so happy living the lives they live. They embody "to each his own."

Also, Dutch girls are strong and tall, and could probably kick the ass of 50% of the world's male population (based purely on those physical attributes), but when in bed are some of the most feminine and romantic girls around, even lighting candles and wanting to go on long walks by the canals.
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#39
7% of Dutch women work part-time. Why is the Netherlands so different?
"Again, this number is bullshit and is revealed by the low birthrates. If men were meaningfully employed they would be getting married and buying houses to start families. The lack of population growth tells everything you need to know. It's obvious the stats are meaningless when supermarket part-time employees are counted as employed."

There have been demographic transitions, Samseau.

The first demographic transition (FDT): from high fertility/high death rates to low fertility/low death rates. Most of the developing world is now experiencing this shift (except SS Africa, but that's a different story.) This is a normal phenomenon where technological, scientific progress leads to family planning. Key is: people were still having families and living fairly traditional, say the 1950s

The second demographic transition (SDT): death rate > fertility rate. After '65 women and men make different lifestyle choices: cohabitation, single mothers, couples delay fertility into their mid-30s, etc. In short: people have fewer children because there are other alternative lifestyles, which many find more satisfying (or, at least, they think it's more satisfying for the time being.) This isn't just Scandinavia or the Dutch, it's a modern phenomenon which is happening in East Asia independently. If people get richer and educated, they want to spend their 20s/30s on themselves; most want families, but later.

It's not that men don't start families because they don't have money, a lot of men don't want to start families until after their 20s/30s. Low birth rates are not a result of poverty, but the _exact_ opposite. Low birth rates are the result of people having more choices because they're richer and want to delay fertility. High fertility is a marker of being poor, throughout history and today throughout the developing world.

There's another trend of low-educated men becoming more marginalized in developed societies. That's got more to do with women getting more educated and not wanting to date 'down' on the one hand; and society becoming more demanding for cognitive tasks, like IT skills and office life, on the other. Except for telling these men to go to school, which will be hard for them (or too boring), I don't see how you can help them.

(FTR: I've worked as a demographer in '07.)
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#40
7% of Dutch women work part-time. Why is the Netherlands so different?
Quote: (05-22-2015 04:37 PM)Maciano Wrote:  

"Again, this number is bullshit and is revealed by the low birthrates. If men were meaningfully employed they would be getting married and buying houses to start families. The lack of population growth tells everything you need to know. It's obvious the stats are meaningless when supermarket part-time employees are counted as employed."

There have been demographic transitions, Samseau.

The first demographic transition (FDT): from high fertility/high death rates to low fertility/low death rates. Most of the developing world is now experiencing this shift (except SS Africa, but that's a different story.) This is a normal phenomenon where technological, scientific progress leads to family planning. Key is: people were still having families and living fairly traditional, say the 1950s

The second demographic transition (SDT): death rate > fertility rate. After '65 women and men make different lifestyle choices: cohabitation, single mothers, couples delay fertility into their mid-30s, etc. In short: people have fewer children because there are other alternative lifestyles, which many find more satisfying (or, at least, they think it's more satisfying for the time being.) This isn't just Scandinavia or the Dutch, it's a modern phenomenon which is happening in East Asia independently. If people get richer and educated, they want to spend their 20s/30s on themselves; most want families, but later.

It's not that men don't start families because they don't have money, a lot of men don't want to start families until after their 20s/30s. Low birth rates are not a result of poverty, but the _exact_ opposite. Low birth rates are the result of people having more choices because they're richer and want to delay fertility. High fertility is a marker of being poor, throughout history and today throughout the developing world.

There's another trend of low-educated men becoming more marginalized in developed societies. That's got more to do with women getting more educated and not wanting to date 'down' on the one hand; and society becoming more demanding for cognitive tasks, like IT skills and office life, on the other. Except for telling these men to go to school, which will be hard for them (or too boring), I don't see how you can help them.

(FTR: I've worked as a demographer in '07.)

You are correct, I was wrong in that low birthrates are merely from unemployment among men.

However, the idea that men are putting off marriage is also a suspect claim. I believe it is far more likely that since women are slutting it up men see less reason to get married, in addition to the fact that women themselves do not want to get married. If women said no sex until marriage, then men would be lining up at the altar.

Regardless, this isn't a demographic "shift" as you put it. There's another word for it: decadence. This is a decadent time and the people are killing themselves and their future choosing to worship themselves instead. Something can only be a "shift" if it is shifting to an equally valid and sustainable alternative; the current society is on a death spiral so it cannot be merely called a shift. It is destructive so death spiral seems much more accurate. 1 child per woman means half as many people per generation. What else is there to say?

Therefore, when I see the even lower birthrates in this recessionary environment, I am forced to conclude that in addition to the decadence that existed prior to the onset of 2008, the current economic climate is hurting men who would normally get married and have children thus causing fertility rates to drop even further.

Contributor at Return of Kings.  I got banned from twatter, which is run by little bitches and weaklings. You can follow me on Gab.

Be sure to check out the easiest mining program around, FreedomXMR.
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#41
7% of Dutch women work part-time. Why is the Netherlands so different?
Samseau,

I think the decadence hypothesis has merit, too. It's not without historic precedent, and it's definitely true in some parts of the West (& East Asia), especially the top cities, like NYC, London, Paris, Tokyo, etc. Large swaths of 20/30-somethings seem to disbelieve biological clocks and lose themselves in frivolities they will regret when they get older.

Certain aspect of SDT (or: decadence) are here to stay: cohabitation, yuppie urban single life, delayed family formation,... These things are not necessarily bad in themselves, as long as people don't start believing biology to be an unfortunate nuisance.
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