Beast first and foremost it's late and I'm beat. I realize there are some references you quoted to which it looks like I'm responding to your words. That's just how it came out with something I did and I ain't gonna fix it. It is what it is so pardon my laziness.
The nicene creed, what about it? I'm afraid I'm not really tracking you there. For one I don't believe in this global enigmatic catholic church. After leaving the Anglican church, I won't utter those words ever again.
That works to obviously, but why not stick to the basis of both religions holy books as your source to defend the faith. Don't bring a knife to gun fight, if you got ammo use it. And about living like Mohammed, well same can be said of most Christians. Hell, look at me; I ain't no shining example of Christianity, but nonethless I still know where I'm headed if my horse throws me headfirst into a pile of rocks.The difference is Muslims, like many Christians, believe in works salvation and to live a life of trying to have their good deeds outweigh their bad. And because most Christians use vandalized Bibles which make Christianity seem like works salvation that's usually the type of Christianity they are confronted with.
You are right, Christianity has no purity doctrine like Islam. I've never said otherwise. Christisnity ain't about rule following, it's about salvation to which the modern Bibles editors have destroyed making it harder for people to understand often leading to works or "lordship salvation". The belief you must stop sinning to be saved. Granted there are unfortunately KJV only churches which preach lordship salvation. They are usually the ones out with colorful sandwich boards and loudspeakers being obnoxious.
Inconsquequential? come on man. Look at 1 John 5:7 and you tell me which bible better clearly illustrates the triune nature of God. I say this with respect Beast, but how you or any Christian can sit there and try and argue away that verse in the King James just absolutely flabbergasts me. Or any verse for that matter. The topic of which Bibles to use today would probably be the most important topic in all the religion. The troubles that plague Christianity today can be directly traced to the types of Bibles being used. People want good feelings instead of tough love and tough medicine which only the King James delivers as the others take out words of strength.
And most importantly the message ofalvation is directly affected by these bibles. Look at 1st Corinthians 1:18 from the KJV.
“For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.”
Now the same with the NIV. "For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.”
That's only one of multitudes
Which one gives clarity and certainty? God is not a God of confusion. The NIV makes salvation a procress which is works. Salvation is a one time event. Jesus said just as you born once of water (birth) you are born once of the spirit. You are born into this world on one day, in one instant in time. Same with salvation.
And why listen to this man? Is he smarther than God himself? You have no idea what's in his heart. Back when I was first interested in religion I would always cling to outside sources and authors to understand of the Bible. Many do, it's only natural. The Bible is a big book and for many not easy to wrap your head around. Until you simply quit doubting, and believe.
I don't state any creeds because I'm not Catholic or catholic light. But what the Catholic bibles have done, is again alter salvation. I could find verses all day for you. I won't as I'm already getting a headache from my phone trying to format all this. hah.
Well it's better to be a legalist than a compromiser. It it ain't fun to say but that's why Islam is expanding and Christianity is shrinking. It would be a good thing for a more dogmatic approach to our religion and actually have pastors with balls to stand up and preach. I don't see thay happening anytime soon. About learning greek, well you said it. I find it the height of hubris and pride if one needs to tout they have to learn greek im order to truly understand the Bible like you're a secret sect or something.
Yes and most aren't saved as they have the same response as a Muslim or Jew when asked if they know for sure where they will go when they die. Their seminary studies and greek and hebrew learning is all in vain. They spend thousands of dollars for an education at marxist infiltrated seminaries when all they need to pay is 25 bucks for a KJV and go find a quiet spot to sit and read. Just them the KJV and the holy spirit.
The one right here next to me.
He means real Americans? hah. That sounds like a snide leftist remark at rural conservatives. Fuck him. I bet his religious worldview is shaped by his politics.
Whoever said that is more full of shit than a fricken cow truck.
The first Bible produced en masse just happened to be English. Which also just happened to forge the world. But every language has their own copy of the true Bible based off the KJV and underlying receptus manuscripts. I speak spanish and have spent time in south America. The spanish language has the Reina Valera Gomez 2010 which is identical to the the KJV. The KJV only argument does not stop at the borders of anglo countries.
Luther and Lutherans believe in works salvation even though they say othewise. If you can lose your salvation, that means you had to do something to lose it. Which means like a muslim you're on eggshells trying to be good. Luther wasn't saved and is irrelevant to the faith.
Did you not read what I wrote man. At the tower of Babel God spread people to the corners of the earth and confounded their languages. God wants nations and languages. I never said such a thing. In fact the opposite. It's Muslims who claim you have you have to learn arabic to truly understand the quran. And I could be mistakin but it sounds like you are the one saying the same thing. "learn greek and Hebrew to truly umderstand..."
I've yet to meet someone who was doctrinally sound on salvation and the eternal certainty of their salvation who carries anything but a KJV.
Absolutely amazing you can sit there and say that.
I wouldn't call it emotion, I'd say righteous anger is more appropriate. Just like with atheists if your constantly looking for evidence you'll always be disapointed. Truth be told I don't give a damn about Erasmus. What I know is I believe it unlikely this earth and life is an accdint and somewhere there has to be message from its creator. If God wanted men like Erasmus or the translators to be in the right place at the right moment in history to produce a Bible for the world then that's how it happened. What I do know is there is power and strength in the KJ that the other Bibles so called don't have. Anything from God will be powerful. There's a reason hardline old school conservative churches stick with the KJV and liberal churches where the men look, act, talk, and dress like soy fags trash the KJV. Strength recognizes strength, and weakness rejects for fear of being exposed. Muslims and Christians with little belief fail to give God the credit for being able to successfully get humanity his message. Call that circular reasoning or ignorance on my part then so be it. I'm happy to be a troglodyte then.
Something I guess we can agree on.Yes people want to feel good themselvres instead of securing eternity. Go into the churches its all self love, ra ra ra, and not single sermon on salvation. Osteens going to split hell wide open. The solution is simple. Preachers grab a KJV, preach it literally instead of making pitiful excuses for unbelief and let the chips fall where they may. Look on the bright side you'll get antifa protesting you just like they would have in Jesus's time.
And just what praytell is God's plan for this world in your opinion.
Quote: (10-20-2017 01:16 PM)The Beast1 Wrote:How in the world did I take those two verses out of context. All I did was compare and contrast the difference between versions to the highlight the differences.
Regardless, their arguments were easily muted when I told them to stop reading verses out of context which is a religious pet peeve of mine, which ironically you've done.
The nicene creed, what about it? I'm afraid I'm not really tracking you there. For one I don't believe in this global enigmatic catholic church. After leaving the Anglican church, I won't utter those words ever again.
Quote: (10-20-2017 01:16 PM)The Beast1 Wrote:
The best way to argue with a Muslim is to flip the argument back on them. How well are they living the life of Mohammid? Any slight deviation, especially in regards to Jihad, is a path to hell. Full stop, no questions asked.
That works to obviously, but why not stick to the basis of both religions holy books as your source to defend the faith. Don't bring a knife to gun fight, if you got ammo use it. And about living like Mohammed, well same can be said of most Christians. Hell, look at me; I ain't no shining example of Christianity, but nonethless I still know where I'm headed if my horse throws me headfirst into a pile of rocks.The difference is Muslims, like many Christians, believe in works salvation and to live a life of trying to have their good deeds outweigh their bad. And because most Christians use vandalized Bibles which make Christianity seem like works salvation that's usually the type of Christianity they are confronted with.
You are right, Christianity has no purity doctrine like Islam. I've never said otherwise. Christisnity ain't about rule following, it's about salvation to which the modern Bibles editors have destroyed making it harder for people to understand often leading to works or "lordship salvation". The belief you must stop sinning to be saved. Granted there are unfortunately KJV only churches which preach lordship salvation. They are usually the ones out with colorful sandwich boards and loudspeakers being obnoxious.
Quote: (10-20-2017 01:16 PM)The Beast1 Wrote:
Moving on, I've been down this path before at a previous church. To be honest, then I stated that this debate is inconsequential in the grander world of issues troubling the church and I feel the same today.
Inconsquequential? come on man. Look at 1 John 5:7 and you tell me which bible better clearly illustrates the triune nature of God. I say this with respect Beast, but how you or any Christian can sit there and try and argue away that verse in the King James just absolutely flabbergasts me. Or any verse for that matter. The topic of which Bibles to use today would probably be the most important topic in all the religion. The troubles that plague Christianity today can be directly traced to the types of Bibles being used. People want good feelings instead of tough love and tough medicine which only the King James delivers as the others take out words of strength.
And most importantly the message ofalvation is directly affected by these bibles. Look at 1st Corinthians 1:18 from the KJV.
“For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.”
Now the same with the NIV. "For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.”
That's only one of multitudes
Which one gives clarity and certainty? God is not a God of confusion. The NIV makes salvation a procress which is works. Salvation is a one time event. Jesus said just as you born once of water (birth) you are born once of the spirit. You are born into this world on one day, in one instant in time. Same with salvation.
Quote: (10-20-2017 01:16 PM)The Beast1 Wrote:
Here's a great resource by theologian Danial Wallace that I used then and feel is relevant to what we're discussing today that is written from the perspective of someone who works in a setting where these questions get asked all of the time.
And why listen to this man? Is he smarther than God himself? You have no idea what's in his heart. Back when I was first interested in religion I would always cling to outside sources and authors to understand of the Bible. Many do, it's only natural. The Bible is a big book and for many not easy to wrap your head around. Until you simply quit doubting, and believe.
Quote: (10-20-2017 01:16 PM)The Beast1 Wrote:
In short, each new translation of the bible doesn't change the core message (IE go against any of the creeds we state each Sunday). I challenge you to find places that run contrary to this.
I don't state any creeds because I'm not Catholic or catholic light. But what the Catholic bibles have done, is again alter salvation. I could find verses all day for you. I won't as I'm already getting a headache from my phone trying to format all this. hah.
Quote: (10-20-2017 01:16 PM)The Beast1 Wrote:
It should be said, having a dogmatic approach to a particular Biblical translation on the basis of it being "pure" doctrine is similar to Islam's adherence to requiring believers to learn Arabic in order to really understand. I find it the height of hubris that you claim my efforts and encouragement to learn Koine Greek and biblical Hebrew relate in any way to the satanic trash peddled by common Imans.
Well it's better to be a legalist than a compromiser. It it ain't fun to say but that's why Islam is expanding and Christianity is shrinking. It would be a good thing for a more dogmatic approach to our religion and actually have pastors with balls to stand up and preach. I don't see thay happening anytime soon. About learning greek, well you said it. I find it the height of hubris and pride if one needs to tout they have to learn greek im order to truly understand the Bible like you're a secret sect or something.
Quote: (10-20-2017 01:16 PM)The Beast1 Wrote:
Do you realize that every pastor in every denomination learns how to read and translate these very languages?
Yes and most aren't saved as they have the same response as a Muslim or Jew when asked if they know for sure where they will go when they die. Their seminary studies and greek and hebrew learning is all in vain. They spend thousands of dollars for an education at marxist infiltrated seminaries when all they need to pay is 25 bucks for a KJV and go find a quiet spot to sit and read. Just them the KJV and the holy spirit.
Quote: (10-20-2017 01:16 PM)The Beast1 Wrote:
This is my favorite little historical tidbit that KJV only people are unaware of. Which revision is the inspired word? I await your answer SW.
The one right here next to me.
Quote: (10-20-2017 01:16 PM)The Beast1 Wrote:
Seventh, those who advocate that the KJV has exclusive rights to being called the Holy Bible are always, curiously, English-speaking people (normally isolated Americans).
He means real Americans? hah. That sounds like a snide leftist remark at rural conservatives. Fuck him. I bet his religious worldview is shaped by his politics.
Whoever said that is more full of shit than a fricken cow truck.
The first Bible produced en masse just happened to be English. Which also just happened to forge the world. But every language has their own copy of the true Bible based off the KJV and underlying receptus manuscripts. I speak spanish and have spent time in south America. The spanish language has the Reina Valera Gomez 2010 which is identical to the the KJV. The KJV only argument does not stop at the borders of anglo countries.
Quote: (10-20-2017 01:16 PM)The Beast1 Wrote:
Some good questions asked here, Luther was the unquestionable father of the reformation. Would Henry the 8th be so bombastic to break away from the Catholic Church had Luther never existed?
Luther and Lutherans believe in works salvation even though they say othewise. If you can lose your salvation, that means you had to do something to lose it. Which means like a muslim you're on eggshells trying to be good. Luther wasn't saved and is irrelevant to the faith.
Quote: (10-20-2017 01:16 PM)The Beast1 Wrote:
What about other translations of the bible that predate the KJV such as Luther's bible? China is quickly becoming a very large Christian country. Are we also to assume that all of these translations are inferior to the KJV? That the infallible word of God can only be heard in English?
Gosh that sounds a lot like how the Koran, the infallible word of God, can only be understood and read in Arabic!
Did you not read what I wrote man. At the tower of Babel God spread people to the corners of the earth and confounded their languages. God wants nations and languages. I never said such a thing. In fact the opposite. It's Muslims who claim you have you have to learn arabic to truly understand the quran. And I could be mistakin but it sounds like you are the one saying the same thing. "learn greek and Hebrew to truly umderstand..."
Quote: (10-20-2017 01:16 PM)The Beast1 Wrote:
. One can get saved reading the KJV and one can get saved reading the NIV, NASB, etc.
I've yet to meet someone who was doctrinally sound on salvation and the eternal certainty of their salvation who carries anything but a KJV.
Quote: (10-20-2017 01:16 PM)The Beast1 Wrote:
Which I agree wholeheartedly. The differences you outlined above are so minuscule they don't change the meaning at all unless you're letting a Muslim control the debate with semantics and not spirit.
Absolutely amazing you can sit there and say that.
Quote: (10-20-2017 01:16 PM)The Beast1 Wrote:
Those who vilify the modern translations and the Greek texts behind them have evidently never really investigated the data. Their appeals are based largely on emotion, not evidence.
I wouldn't call it emotion, I'd say righteous anger is more appropriate. Just like with atheists if your constantly looking for evidence you'll always be disapointed. Truth be told I don't give a damn about Erasmus. What I know is I believe it unlikely this earth and life is an accdint and somewhere there has to be message from its creator. If God wanted men like Erasmus or the translators to be in the right place at the right moment in history to produce a Bible for the world then that's how it happened. What I do know is there is power and strength in the KJ that the other Bibles so called don't have. Anything from God will be powerful. There's a reason hardline old school conservative churches stick with the KJV and liberal churches where the men look, act, talk, and dress like soy fags trash the KJV. Strength recognizes strength, and weakness rejects for fear of being exposed. Muslims and Christians with little belief fail to give God the credit for being able to successfully get humanity his message. Call that circular reasoning or ignorance on my part then so be it. I'm happy to be a troglodyte then.
Quote: (10-20-2017 01:16 PM)The Beast1 Wrote:
The question of why the church is falling apart, in my opinion, is caused by the failings of Church Leaders to deliver tough love and explain consequences in terms that people understand. People seek out churches because they sense stagnation in their midst, yet too many churches are "nice" and don't deliver tough messages that people need to grow spiritually.
The churches that are growing (Joel Ostein for example) have tough messages that force people to admit to their failings and look for strength in Christ to help change them.
The churches that are growing (Joel Ostein for example) have tough messages that force people to admit to their failings and look for strength in Christ to help change them.
Something I guess we can agree on.Yes people want to feel good themselvres instead of securing eternity. Go into the churches its all self love, ra ra ra, and not single sermon on salvation. Osteens going to split hell wide open. The solution is simple. Preachers grab a KJV, preach it literally instead of making pitiful excuses for unbelief and let the chips fall where they may. Look on the bright side you'll get antifa protesting you just like they would have in Jesus's time.
Quote: (10-20-2017 01:16 PM)The Beast1 Wrote:
...is missing the point in the grander scheme that is God's plan for this world.
And just what praytell is God's plan for this world in your opinion.
Dreams are like horses; they run wild on the earth. Catch one and ride it. Throw a leg over and ride it for all its worth.
Psalm 25:7
https://youtu.be/vHVoMCH10Wk