[Suits]

This whole discussion pisses me off about my undergraduate experience even more.

I went to school wanting to learn. And learn I did. However, my grades were based on having time to put into prepping perfect answers for tests, (which had to put significant importance on minuet details, because otherwise everyone would get an A) and crafting excellent essays.

I have the intellectual ability to do both, as I demonstrated when taking a single course at a time intensively during semesters abroad or summer school, but I do not have the ability to juggle 4-6 courses at a time, work 20 hours a week to pay for the whole damn thing and still do above a B or a C.

The worst part was that the courses that I enjoyed the most and have drawn the most benefit from were constructed to be challenging in a way that would specifically prepare students for graduate school, not for general careers.

Given that going to graduate school (even a masters being nothing more than prep for a PhD) is a huge mistake (based on the discussion here and information presented at the blog that Penegrine linked to), I'm totally pissed that the entire grading scheme during my undergraduate career was based on pushing students to be better graduate school candidates, a direction that exists to support the financial needs of the academic community itself, not the actual students.

If school was about preparing you for a genuine non-academic job, the grading would be based on encouraging mastery.

Since only so many people can go to graduate school (and this is an option every undergraduate considers at least once), the grading system is designed not to encourage you to reach a certain standard, but to cull the losers who can't cut it.

Therefore, the grading system isn't designed to encourage the student's intellectually growth, but rather with the pre-established assumption that there will be successes and failures.

It sucks to pay $20K+ per year on tuition to a system that is OK with your failure, instead of feeling a responsibility for the success of all hardworking student with an acceptable IQ. (Students without the acceptable IQ shouldn't be admitted in the first place. If you are admitted, this should be the university tacitly promising to take an institutional responsibility in filling your head with knowledge, provide that you don't simply slack off).

If higher education is supposed to teach you how to think, I'd say that in today's day and age, graduating with the skills, knowledge and direction to start a small business should be a rock bottom minimum.

[iknowexactly]

(03-30-2015 05:42 AM)Windom Earle Wrote:  

(03-29-2015 10:45 PM)ordinaryleastsquared Wrote:  

brass tax

tacks

mercy not not mercey.

There was however, Mersey beat which was a genre of English music I think.

[iknowexactly]

(03-30-2015 02:36 AM)Sp5 Wrote:  

Go to a military recruiter and get an officer's commission in the branch and specialty of your choice.

I like this, if you are in your early 20s you can be retired at half-pay in your early 40's. Location independent lifestyle then. I think you can hitchhike on military planes.

Few men retire in their early 40s, things "just happen".

[Buster]

IKE is spot on. Go Air Force and you can hop flights in the jump seats for the rest of your life. If you can leverage your social science into counseling returning troops there are enough PTSD guys that could really use the help. You could do no better service than helping the young men that have served, and I bet you would enjoy the ride.

[poutsara]

(03-31-2015 07:58 PM)Suits Wrote:  

It sucks to pay $20K+ per year on tuition to a system that is OK with your failure...

The entire world is essentially OK with your failure (mine too). Nothing personal.

[iknowexactly]

(03-31-2015 11:06 PM)Buster Wrote:  

IKE is spot on. Go Air Force and you can hop flights in the jump seats for the rest of your life. If you can leverage your social science into counseling returning troops there are enough PTSD guys that could really use the help. You could do no better service than helping the young men that have served, and I bet you would enjoy the ride.

I did education time on a military base as a therapist. If you're not where the soldiers are coming back, the psychologists and social workers had almost literally nothing to do because everyone knows their records aren't really confidential, and they are really endangering their promotion prospects by going in for counseling.

People coming back are motivated in the opposite direction, they want to get benefits for PTSD and the like. I wasn't there after the Gulf wars started so I didn't see it, heard from colleagues.

The military covertly tries to discourage this and servicemen and women are committing suicide every day. The ruling class doesn't seem to concerned about the poor losers that don't have big money.

The psychologist supervising me said they paid for her doctorate, she said she'd have a hard time getting out before she sort of paid them back. But getting your doctorate paid for then retiring at 1/2 pay = winning.

[Suits]

(03-31-2015 11:16 PM)poutsara Wrote:  

(03-31-2015 07:58 PM)Suits Wrote:  

It sucks to pay $20K+ per year on tuition to a system that is OK with your failure...

The entire world is essentially OK with your failure (mine too). Nothing personal.

You're absolutely correct and I live my life based on this understanding, but when it comes to paying for services, I expect a service to be delivered, rather than the service provider acting like they are doing me a favour by allowing me to hand them all my cash.

If you are offering an educational service, I expect that you will provide me with the resources to learn what you teach.

Of course, educational institutions don't consider themselves service industry and have a major stick up their ass about how spectacular they are, so this isn't going to change any time soon.

However, wanting my environment to be a product of me, instead of the other way around, I'm actually working on plans to offer an educational service that guarantees results, within certain parameters.

I dare you to give me a student with an IQ above 90 who you think can't learn Chinese.

[Phoenix]

(03-31-2015 11:36 PM)Suits Wrote:  

but when it comes to paying for services, I expect a service to be delivered, rather than the service provider acting like they are doing me a favour by allowing me to hand them all my cash.

If you are offering an educational service, I expect that you will provide me with the resources to learn what you teach.

Of course, educational institutions don't consider themselves service industry and have a major stick up their ass about how spectacular they are, so this isn't going to change any time soon.

Damn straight. One of the problems is that people are taking their advice from the same source as their education. It's a conflict of interest. If you ask your mechanic 'should the clutch be replaced', he's more than likely going to say yes, even if the clutch has another 5 years on it.

I get why - the teacher is in a position of intellectual authority, and you're following and accepting everything he says, it only seems natural to accept his advice too, even if that advice is in his interest but not yours.

People are quick to say 'it's the students fault', but this isn't reasonable. Young people are naive and inexperienced. We never say its a baby's fault when it does something foolish - for we can't expect the same personal responsibility from a clueless youth as we can a world-weary adult. And like in this situation - the true responsibility lies on the shoulders of parents.

Parents are by and large, doing a shit, lazy job, in a massive part of the population. Their idea of checking up on their child's progress is 'did he get an A on his report card?'. They don't treat school as a service for their children, they treat it as a way to abdicate responsibility for the rearing of their children. It doesn't matter what the teachers are teaching their children and telling them to do - as long as the child is in school they pat themselves on the back and consider their job done. As long as they put away money for little Johnny's college fund, and he 'goes to college', they can delude themselves "I've fulfilled my responsibilities as a parent".

I'm of the opinion that families should be utilizing the services of career advisers much more. Agencies completely independent of the school and university system should be advising young people what to do, if parents feel unqualified to do it themselves, rather than the schools.

[iknowexactly]

Attributed to Lyndon Johnson
"It's better to be inside the tent pissing out than outside the tent pissing in."

as a previous poster alluded to, generally no one will PAY you for being critical of something, they pay you because of something you know that they need.

The troubling statistics are currently the educated make much more than those not -- on
average.
Better have another skill to sell than thinking "I am so much smarter than all these average BLUE PILL people. " People will always cheer on risk taking--by OTHERS .

[Sonoma]

If you're in a government job a Masters can benefit, but for the work needed to become one, being a professor doesn't pay shit

[Dantes]

I can speak from the perspective of having a Ph.D. My education was costly, time consuming and required a lot of sacrifice. During the process, I contemplated quitting on several occasions but I stuck it out. My Ph.D and work experience places me in a position where I am an expert in my field. At the very minimum, it is an insurance policy as it provides me with many options for employment in my field that I would not have had if I stopped my education after a Masters.

In addition to a well paid job, I supplement my income with a consulting practice that is 100 percent on my terms with regard to choosing when and how I work. The compensation for this is very good.

Pursuing a Ph.D is not for everyone. I dont know if I would do it again. However, I am glad to report that I am seeing the benefits right now and I have a sense it will provide me with opportunities in the future I never would have had without the degree.

[komatiite]

^Dantes obviously I won't ask you to reveal your specific field but what sort of general discipline is your PHD in? Science, social science or humanities?

[8ball]

I seriously think its dangerous to advise young men to not go to college or pursue academia. There have been many articles around the mano-sphere promoting the idea of skipping college.

While a lot of the what the op says is correct, it applies mostly to LIBERAL ARTS. Its really important we make the distinction between a professor that teaches "pop culture" and the one that teaches database administration. The latter is not toxic for men, on the contrary it teaches a useful skill they can use to either get a high paying job or help start their own business. Young men should continue to go to college and pursue academia, just avoid useless courses and communist professors.

[Menace]

I would second Dantes comments. Similar position. Degree is in a hard science.

[coverdoc]

I was choosing between PhD in biological sciences or professional school and decided to go with the latter. Glad I did. My sister is getting her PhD in the mathematical field and calls me all the time telling me the bull shit she has to go through. Professors stealing her research work, adding their names to her paper(but not contributing shit), shitty whiny students etc. Sometimes listening to it sounds like an unbelievable soap opera filled with drama betrayal gossip, everything but murder.

-CD

[komatiite]

(04-01-2015 06:49 PM)coverdoc Wrote:  

I was choosing between PhD in biological sciences or professional school and decided to go with the latter. Glad I did. My sister is getting her PhD in the mathematical field and calls me all the time telling me the bull shit she has to go through. Professors stealing her research work, adding their names to her paper(but not contributing shit), shitty whiny students etc. Sometimes listening to it sounds like an unbelievable soap opera filled with drama betrayal gossip, everything but murder.

-CD

Haha, that is hilarious! In undergrad I did a big field research project (geology) and some cocksucker prof who I talked to once asking for help interpreting well logs (maybe a 10 min discussion) came up to me after editing it and said since he helped me out, he should be a co-author with the actual prof who I was out working with instead of an acknowledgement. I just shrugged and said OK, then he fucking puts the paper I wrote all by myself on his CV on his personal web site. The paper was a 20 page piece of shit Undergrad honours thesis I wrote in like 4 days before the deadline!

[RexImperator]

Hmmm. I was recently accepted into an engineering graduate program but I'm having second thoughts.

[Peregrine]

(04-01-2015 07:18 PM)komatiite Wrote:  

(04-01-2015 06:49 PM)coverdoc Wrote:  

I was choosing between PhD in biological sciences or professional school and decided to go with the latter. Glad I did. My sister is getting her PhD in the mathematical field and calls me all the time telling me the bull shit she has to go through. Professors stealing her research work, adding their names to her paper(but not contributing shit), shitty whiny students etc. Sometimes listening to it sounds like an unbelievable soap opera filled with drama betrayal gossip, everything but murder.

-CD

Haha, that is hilarious! In undergrad I did a big field research project (geology) and some cocksucker prof who I talked to once asking for help interpreting well logs (maybe a 10 min discussion) came up to me after editing it and said since he helped me out, he should be a co-author with the actual prof who I was out working with instead of an acknowledgement. I just shrugged and said OK, then he fucking puts the paper I wrote all by myself on his CV on his personal web site. The paper was a 20 page piece of shit Undergrad honours thesis I wrote in like 4 days before the deadline!

Doesn't matter, no one will read it anyway so no one will realize he claimed credit for junk. Academia CVs are judged by how long they are, not the quality of the work on them (as even peers generally are not capable of/could not give two shits about telling the difference).

It's just one big racket.

Cf. private sector CVs where you have to display real achievements and skills.

[Peregrine]

(04-01-2015 12:17 AM)Phoenix Wrote:  

(03-31-2015 11:36 PM)Suits Wrote:  

but when it comes to paying for services, I expect a service to be delivered, rather than the service provider acting like they are doing me a favour by allowing me to hand them all my cash.

If you are offering an educational service, I expect that you will provide me with the resources to learn what you teach.

Of course, educational institutions don't consider themselves service industry and have a major stick up their ass about how spectacular they are, so this isn't going to change any time soon.

Damn straight. One of the problems is that people are taking their advice from the same source as their education. It's a conflict of interest. If you ask your mechanic 'should the clutch be replaced', he's more than likely going to say yes, even if the clutch has another 5 years on it.

I get why - the teacher is in a position of intellectual authority, and you're following and accepting everything he says, it only seems natural to accept his advice too, even if that advice is in his interest but not yours.

People are quick to say 'it's the students fault', but this isn't reasonable. Young people are naive and inexperienced. We never say its a baby's fault when it does something foolish - for we can't expect the same personal responsibility from a clueless youth as we can a world-weary adult. And like in this situation - the true responsibility lies on the shoulders of parents.

Parents are by and large, doing a shit, lazy job, in a massive part of the population. Their idea of checking up on their child's progress is 'did he get an A on his report card?'. They don't treat school as a service for their children, they treat it as a way to abdicate responsibility for the rearing of their children. It doesn't matter what the teachers are teaching their children and telling them to do - as long as the child is in school they pat themselves on the back and consider their job done. As long as they put away money for little Johnny's college fund, and he 'goes to college', they can delude themselves "I've fulfilled my responsibilities as a parent".

I'm of the opinion that families should be utilizing the services of career advisers much more. Agencies completely independent of the school and university system should be advising young people what to do, if parents feel unqualified to do it themselves, rather than the schools.

I was nodding along until the last paragraph. You blame parents for abdicating responsibility to the school system, but then suggest they abdicate responsibility to a career adviser? Parents should advise their kids on all aspects of life, including future careers.

[Easy_C]

The major disconnect between education and the results they deliver is a key sticking point that badly needs to be resolved.

So far I've only seen a single exception: MBA's. The reason for this is that MBA program rankings are heavily impacted by how successful the programs involved are at job placement, specifically the % of alumni who find full time employment and the average salaries that jobs pay. If you ask me we should start ranking other career oriented academic programs (like engineering, computer science, and law/medical schools) primarily in terms of how successful their alumni are at securing meaningful employment.

[ordinaryleastsquared]

(04-01-2015 11:09 AM)Dantes Wrote:  

I can speak from the perspective of having a Ph.D. My education was costly, time consuming and required a lot of sacrifice. During the process, I contemplated quitting on several occasions but I stuck it out. My Ph.D and work experience places me in a position where I am an expert in my field. At the very minimum, it is an insurance policy as it provides me with many options for employment in my field that I would not have had if I stopped my education after a Masters.

In addition to a well paid job, I supplement my income with a consulting practice that is 100 percent on my terms with regard to choosing when and how I work. The compensation for this is very good.

Pursuing a Ph.D is not for everyone. I dont know if I would do it again. However, I am glad to report that I am seeing the benefits right now and I have a sense it will provide me with opportunities in the future I never would have had without the degree.

Are you in academia? Its hard to go from tenure track position to another tenure track position in a different department. Getting a phd and going into an applied field isn't as bad of a bet for sure.

[Dantes]

I'm not in academia. My degree is in an applied field. I have had offers for academic positions but these positions would be a pay cut at my present salary.

[Phoenix]

(04-01-2015 08:01 PM)Peregrine Wrote:  

(04-01-2015 12:17 AM)Phoenix Wrote:  

I'm of the opinion that families should be utilizing the services of career advisers much more. Agencies completely independent of the school and university system should be advising young people what to do, if parents feel unqualified to do it themselves, rather than the schools.

I was nodding along until the last paragraph. You blame parents for abdicating responsibility to the school system, but then suggest they abdicate responsibility to a career adviser? Parents should advise their kids on all aspects of life, including future careers.

Sure, but parents aren't always qualified to do so. They wouldn't, for instance, give their children forex trading advice if they knew nothing about it. Division of labour is fine, its not an abdication of responsibility so long as there is due diligence, and a specialized career researcher is going to do a better job than a parent who works in a bakery. Leaving children to the mercy of the school system alone, with its conflicts of interest, is not due diligence, and thus an abdication of responsibility.

[Aer]

I'm starting my Master's in September. It's in a semi-humanities oriented field (International Relations) but they teach a ton of statistics and mathematical analysis.

Also, the internship opportunities with big international orgs are top notch, and the school is very well regarded among the elites in the IOs. Also, it's a very, very small school.

And it's cheap as hell.

[The Beast1]

(04-01-2015 07:38 PM)RexImperator Wrote:  

Hmmm. I was recently accepted into an engineering graduate program but I'm having second thoughts.

What are the details? If you have a solid plan that you don't plan on deviating, graduate study is good especially if you can get the bill to be little to nothing.

I wouldn't get into any student loan debt unless there is a very clear path from start to finish, something that I didn't do.

I will only go to graduate school if my employer pays for part of it.