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Article: Why Do We Punish Men for Expressing Their Sexual Desires?
#1

Article: Why Do We Punish Men for Expressing Their Sexual Desires?

http://www.alternet.org/sex-amp-relation...al-desires

There's the usual shit about society pressuring men to get laid all the time and unfairly trying to suppress female sexuality, but in between some surprisingly thoughtful insights-common on RVF but not everywhere else-make it to the surface. Takes on the automatic labeling of frank male desire as "creepy." I'm bolding highlights.

Quote:Quote:

This is an article about men, but I'm going to begin by talking about women's experiences. Many of us women go through our daily lives fending off unwanted male attention; most of us have worried about being attacked by men. If I stroll down a city street or take public transit alone, I can count on being approached by men I don't want to talk to. If I walk home after dark, I can't help fearing assault -- so much so that if a man or group of men come near me on the street, I feel my heart lodge firmly in my throat until they pass.

So it's completely understandable that we're all on high alert for predatory expressions of male sexuality. While certain situations and certain people deserve the designation "creep" -- like, say, the guy who once leered at me as I walked out of the public library and whispered, "I can smell your pussy" -- most guys really don't. The pressure put on men to be initiators, yet avoid seeming creepy or aggressive leads to an unpleasant double bind. After all, the same gross cultural pressures that make women into objects force men into instigators; how many women do you know who proposed to their husbands?

So how can a man express his sexual needs without being tarred as a creep? After all, the point of promoting sex-positive attitudes is for everyone to be able to be open about their needs and desires, right?

When I was 23 years old, I was still coming to terms with my S&M orientation, and so I posted to an Internet message board about how "illicit" desire was messing up my life. Soon, I received an email from a guy in my area. He accurately guessed the cause of my anxieties ("either you want some BDSM play, or you maybe want to add other partners into a relationship") and offered to fulfill all my wicked, dirty lusts. In fairness, the guy actually referred to himself as creepy during our text-only conversation -- but I still feel guilty that when I told the story to my friends, we all referred to him as "the creep."

I obviously had every right to turn down my Internet Lothario. Still, I shouldn't have called him a creep; all he was doing was being overt and honest about his desires, and he did it in a polite -- though straightforward -- way. If he'd emailed me with "Hey bitch, you obviously want me to come over and dominate you," then that would have been impolite and unpleasant. But he emailed me a quick and amusing introduction, then asked what I wanted. After a few rounds of banter, I called a halt, and he respected that. I think the word "creep" is too vague and prejudiced to mean anything anymore. But if I were willing to use the word, I'd say my Internet suitor was the opposite of a creep.

***

Although I've become more aware of it recently, I think I've always had the sense that men are particularly vulnerable to the judgment of “creep." Over a year ago, I wrote a series of blog posts on the problems of masculinity, and in Part 3 I noted that -- unlike men -- "I can be explicit and overt about my sexuality without being viewed as a creep."

Of course, I could be labeled a slut, which could damage me quite badly. There's a reason I do all my most explicit writing under a pseudonym. We feminists often say that men's promiscuity is lauded while women's is stigmatized, and one point of this argument is purely linguistic: "stud" is a complimentary word for a promiscuous man, while "slut" is a hurtful word for a promiscuous woman. Besides, our culture hates sex, no matter who's doin' it -- even vanilla, consensual, heterosexual, private sex between cute white married adults is hard for some folks to acknowledge!

But in fact, men aren't merely enabled to be promiscuous -- they're pressured to be getting laid all the time. This influences situations ranging from huge communities devoted entirely to teaching men how to pick up women, to tragically callous dismissal of the experiences of men who have been raped.

And while there's immense cultural repression of all sexuality, there's also a fair and growing amount of modern TV, movies and feminist energy that seek to enable female sluttitude in all its harmless, glorious forms. The stud vs. slut dichotomy is worth discussing, but it has one flaw: it entirely ignores the word "creep," whose function appears to be restricting male sexuality to a limited, contradictory set of behaviors.

Feminist blogger Thomas Millar writes, "The common understanding of male sexuality is a stereotype, an ultra-narrow group of desires and activities oriented around penis-in-vagina sex, anal intercourse and blowjobs; oriented around cissexual [i.e., non-trans] women partners having certain very narrow groups of physical characteristics.” Men are supposed to be insatiable only within those bounds. Men who step outside them -- for example, heterosexual men who are attracted to curvier women, or who like being pegged with a dildo in the butt -- are either mocked or viewed with anxious suspicion.

Worse, men who talk a lot about their sexuality, or who make any slightly unusual move (like sending a friendly proposition over the Internet), can run afoul of the pervasive tropes around male sexuality: that it's inherently aggressive, toxic and unwanted.

Under these circumstances, mere semi-explicit conversations become fraught territory. A male, S&M-oriented friend of mine told me about a girl he once spoke to while volunteering at a large feminist organization. She started a conversation about how she was coming to terms with her queer identity; she no longer wanted to have sex with men, but with women. He said he could relate, and described his feelings about coming into his S&M identity. The next day, he got a call from the intern coordinator telling him to get back in the closet. "Turns out what I thought was discussing who I was, came across as hinting that she should participate," says my friend. "The thought never crossed my mind -- she was, after all, telling me that she didn't want to have sex with men. But the cultural constructs around the conversation intervened between what I was saying and what she was hearing."

As one masculinity thread commenter named Tim observes: "The only way for a guy to guarantee that he won’t be called 'creepy' is to suppress entirely his sexuality, just like a woman can escape being called a slut by suppressing hers."

Another commenter, Sam, notes that it's often difficult for men to "realize that being sexually confident and assertive is not tied to politics," and that some men feel so much anxiety they hire experts to coach them through just asking a strange woman where to find Internet access.

These anti-male stereotypes have an incredibly broad effect, and not just among individuals. Calls to censor porn, for example, are influenced not only by extreme claims that porn access increases rape (it doesn't) but by feelings that mainstream porn expresses an unacceptable form of male sexuality.

It's certainly true that the kind of sex represented in mainstream porn isn't for everybody, which is why there are lots of other kinds of porn out there (including feminist porn). However, I'm reluctant to condemn any kind of consensual sex in itself, including consensual sex as represented in mainstream porn. Plus, as commenter iamcuriousblue claims, many condemnations of mainstream porn incorporate a "view of masculinity itself as inherently hostile and dangerous" and a tacit claim that male sexuality "needs to be kept on a short leash, where men’s viewing of violent or pornographic media is restricted, either through community pressure or state action, lest the dumb beast of a man get the wrong ideas."

If we're worried about people learning the wrong things from mainstream porn, then we should be giving everyone unflinchingly detailed sex education so that everyone understands just how limited mainstream porn is. Men aren't dumb beasts -- no more than women are wilting flowers -- and stereotypes are easily defeated by a complete picture of the world.

***

I've got three suggestions for how we can all start taking down awful conceptions of male sexuality -- and the word "creep" with them.

1) Sam summed it up best: "Accept male desire, and accept men's word when they talk about it."

Like most people, men want sex, and that's not a bad thing. Like everyone, men deserve to feel as though their sexuality is hot, awesome, delicious, valuable, and can be pleasurable for all parties in a consensual situation. Just as women shouldn't have to feel exploited when they have consensual sex, men shouldn't have to feel like they're exploiting someone when they have consensual sex. Just as more and more space is being made for forthright discussion of female sexuality, more and more space should be made for forthright discussion of male sexuality.


Of course there are inappropriate ways for men to express their desire, just as there are inappropriate ways for women to express their desire. For example, it's not okay for people of any sex to continue hitting on someone after that person has clearly asked them to stop. It's not okay for people in a position of power, like employers or clients, to use their position to harass or sexually intimidate people under their authority.

But these situations are a far cry from creating more dialogue in appropriate places -- like gender studies classes or blogs -- about male sexuality. They're also a far cry from giving men like my S&M friend the benefit of the doubt when they join conversations about desire.

2) "Male sexuality should be approached from the concept of pleasure rather than accomplishment," writes machina, a blog commenter.

Men are under so much pressure to get busy all the time that even when they're having sex, their own pleasure may be less central than meeting the stereotype of how dudes are supposed to get laid. For some men, the stereotypes do kinda represent their desires; for some, the stereotypes don't work at all. A man who's the top partner in anal sex with his girlfriend might be scoring big according to popular consensus ... but if what he really craves is for her to peg him with a strap-on, then he's not actually scoring at all. Even a guy who contentedly loves anal sex might have the chance at mind-blowing sexual paradise if he decided to risk something new, to think outside the box.

Linking sex to accomplishment rather than pleasure also leads to some men caring more about getting it done than their partners' consent. It's obvious that the "I can smell your pussy" guy, for example, was more concerned with making a show than having a mutually hot experience.

3) Which brings me to my last thought: Let's all discourage sexuality that's actually predatory or non-consensual.

Obviously, most people aren't rapists, and as HughRistik says: "I don’t think an individual man deserves to feel that his sexuality is toxic merely because he is a man and other men have displayed their sexuality in toxic ways." But assault and harassment are real problems, causing real anxieties. (And not just for women. I've heard stories about how men's boundaries are routinely ignored; one example is women who, while exploring naked fun with some happy gentleman, will initiate condomless sex without even asking if he's cool with that.)

It's incumbent upon all of us to discourage that kind of thing when we see or hear about it, no matter who it comes from. It's also incumbent upon us to honor each others' boundaries. But this is not a question of limiting or repressing male sexuality, and it shouldn't be framed that way. It should be framed entirely as a question of consent, communication and respect.

Thanks so much to all the commenters who have participated in my sprawling manliness threads: Part 1, Part 2, Part 3 and The Followup. Particular thanks to those who have stuck with The Followup, which has over 1,200 comments and is still evolving!

If civilization had been left in female hands we would still be living in grass huts. - Camille Paglia
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#2

Article: Why Do We Punish Men for Expressing Their Sexual Desires?

This is exactly what I've been wondering for many years.

How does a man express his desire without being accused of "violating boundaries"?

I've even seen this shit happen when I have had no sexual interest in the woman at all.

I was once accused of "not respecting boundaries" because I spoke to a woman and then walked after about five minutes.
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#3

Article: Why Do We Punish Men for Expressing Their Sexual Desires?

Decent, but it shows the groupthink bubble that the writer is in. I mean, how many guys really think "man, I'm slamming my girl in the ass, but all I really want is for her to ram a big black dildo in my own virgin poopchute. I'm so oppressed, she will call me a fag, please hug me, no homo"
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#4

Article: Why Do We Punish Men for Expressing Their Sexual Desires?

Is there anything more tiresome than women who write these sort of navel-gazing essays on "sexuality"? What does that even mean, anyway? If we're honest, is this not just another avenue for attention whoring? She goes out of her way to strike an academic, even clinical tone, but the subtext is unmistakably, "Hey boys, I like sex, including kinky S&M stuff. Holler at me."

Women talking about sex is just completely boring. They don't understand sex because they don't have to work for it. It would be like if men were obsessed with writing long essays examining, from every angle, the fact that men are physically stronger than women. It would just be self-indulgent and bizarre.

The problem today is that women are thinking and talking far too much about sex, and spending pathetically little time talking and thinking about femininity and motherhood. The author of this piece has probably spent more time thoughtfully considering the color and size of her next dildo than she has the potential names of her children.

[size=8pt]"For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.”[/size] [size=7pt] - Romans 8:18[/size]
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#5

Article: Why Do We Punish Men for Expressing Their Sexual Desires?

Quote:Quote:

I've even seen this shit happen when I have had no sexual interest in the woman at all.

The vast majority of the time this type of thing has happened to me, it's been a woman that I wouldn't ever be remotely interested in. That's not a coincidence.
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#6

Article: Why Do We Punish Men for Expressing Their Sexual Desires?

Quote: (02-06-2015 05:28 PM)scorpion Wrote:  

Women talking about sex is just completely boring. They don't understand sex because they don't have to work for it. It would be like if men were obsessed with writing long essays examining, from every angle, the fact that men are physically stronger than women. It would just be self-indulgent and bizarre.

The problem today is that women are thinking and talking far too much about sex, and spending pathetically little time talking and thinking about femininity and motherhood.

Thoughtful, true, and shows how ludicrous everything is.

SENS Foundation - help stop age-related diseases

Quote: (05-19-2016 12:01 PM)Giovonny Wrote:  
If I talk to 100 19 year old girls, at least one of them is getting fucked!
Quote:WestIndianArchie Wrote:
Am I reacting to her? No pussy, all problems
Or
Is she reacting to me? All pussy, no problems
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#7

Article: Why Do We Punish Men for Expressing Their Sexual Desires?

puckerman, you just have to have unshakeable frame and good screening. Since there's no foolproof way to tell the crazies from the decent women you're bound to run into some crazies if your dick works at all.

PR and scorpion, I agree it is a lot of bullshit but it's way ahead of every other piece of its kind. There's some grains of truth in it we can work with is all I'm saying.

If civilization had been left in female hands we would still be living in grass huts. - Camille Paglia
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#8

Article: Why Do We Punish Men for Expressing Their Sexual Desires?

She's actually written a pretty nice piece here, can't knock it.

Check out my occasionally updated travel thread - The Wroclaw Gambit II: Dzięki Bogu - as I prepare to emigrate to Poland.
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#9

Article: Why Do We Punish Men for Expressing Their Sexual Desires?

It is a really good piece.

She at least asks the question. Compared to other female writers who just blame men for wanting sex.

The only way around being labelled a creep is to be pursued by women. It's a bit ridiculous honestly.
Women will forever try to play the victim whenever the chance presents itself even if they are the aggressors.
This piece is just a cleaver way of writing about it. Props to her though.
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#10

Article: Why Do We Punish Men for Expressing Their Sexual Desires?

Another article about those poor defenseless men and poor defenseless women.

When are these people going to get a clue that men and women both make up roughly half the fucking population. lol

It's like everyone in the world want to viewed as some underdog facing hoards of savage wolves all on their own. Not everyone can be a minority - I guess that's life.

I'm not sure I like men being thrown into the "cry me a river" bucket with everyone else. We need to pull more groups out of that bucket - not put more in.

Beyond All Seas

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe.
To be your own man is a hard business. If you try it, you'll be lonely often, and sometimes
frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." - Kipling
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#11

Article: Why Do We Punish Men for Expressing Their Sexual Desires?

Quote: (02-06-2015 05:28 PM)scorpion Wrote:  

Is there anything more tiresome than women who write these sort of navel-gazing essays on "sexuality"? What does that even mean, anyway? If we're honest, is this not just another avenue for attention whoring? She goes out of her way to strike an academic, even clinical tone, but the subtext is unmistakably, "Hey boys, I like sex, including kinky S&M stuff. Holler at me."

Women talking about sex is just completely boring. They don't understand sex because they don't have to work for it. It would be like if men were obsessed with writing long essays examining, from every angle, the fact that men are physically stronger than women. It would just be self-indulgent and bizarre.

The problem today is that women are thinking and talking far too much about sex, and spending pathetically little time talking and thinking about femininity and motherhood. The author of this piece has probably spent more time thoughtfully considering the color and size of her next dildo than she has the potential names of her children.

This juicy description doesn't get you going, scorpion?

Quote:Quote:

Like everyone, men deserve to feel as though their sexuality is hot, awesome, delicious, valuable, and can be pleasurable for all parties in a consensual situation.

Also, is her e-mail address on there? I'd like to send her an e-mail [Image: wink.gif]

edit: the author---

[Image: 2286170-full-1673_84-original.jpg]

She is also the author of such titles as, Confessions of a
Pickup Artist Chaser, Violation: Rape In Gaming, and The S&M Feminist.

You can't make this shit up.

[Image: 5105%2BMfjoTL._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-st..._OU01_.jpg]

[Image: 51ezFzHws0L._UY250_.jpg]

[Image: 51FJX8D2neL._UY250_.jpg]
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#12

Article: Why Do We Punish Men for Expressing Their Sexual Desires?

Quote: (02-06-2015 09:06 PM)Checkmat Wrote:  

She is also the author of such titles as, Confessions of a
Pickup Artist Chaser, Violation: Rape In Gaming, and The S&M Feminist.

You can't make this shit up.

Just more evidence confirming what MikeCF has been saying for a long time - SWJ women love to be dominated and overdrive their hamsters trying to figure out a way to make it compatible with their 'everyone is equal' mantra.

"I'd hate myself if I had that kind of attitude, if I were that weak." - Arnold
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#13

Article: Why Do We Punish Men for Expressing Their Sexual Desires?

Quote: (02-06-2015 05:12 PM)puckerman Wrote:  

This is exactly what I've been wondering for many years.

How does a man express his desire without being accused of "violating boundaries"?

I've even seen this shit happen when I have had no sexual interest in the woman at all.

I was once accused of "not respecting boundaries" because I spoke to a woman and then walked after about five minutes.
"violating boundaries" means you disagree with her opinion, or (my favorite) she is into control and cannot deal with your lack of attraction in a mature way. If nothing else, women can see sexual desire attraction because it is something for her to manipulate, you did not desire her so she acted out by by claiming "boundary issues".

Delicious Tacos is the voice of my generation....
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#14

Article: Why Do We Punish Men for Expressing Their Sexual Desires?

This is one of the most even handed things I've ever heard from the fairer sex. Sure there's a lot more to it in totality than what she has put into words but I can't fault her for what's been said, unless I was trying to.

I take from this a woman who has actually tried to overcome her innate solipsism & for that I am glad.

The other thing I am glad about is that she's far from being a warpig. From that pic above, WB mos def, & would go for the backdoor with impunity!
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#15

Article: Why Do We Punish Men for Expressing Their Sexual Desires?

Quote:Quote:

While certain situations and certain people deserve the designation "creep" -- like, say, the guy who once leered at me as I walked out of the public library and whispered, "I can smell your pussy"

Silence of the Lambs game recognized .

"As wolves among sheep we have wandered"
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#16

Article: Why Do We Punish Men for Expressing Their Sexual Desires?

And her name is even Clarisse.

If only you knew how bad things really are.
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#17

Article: Why Do We Punish Men for Expressing Their Sexual Desires?

I'm not sure if she's writing this to get a lot of internet high fives or to say that she's actually changed her thinking and it's influenced her behavior. I'm willing to go with the former. Otherwise she would have said in the conclusion that she called that guy up.

Quote:Said a guy who bragged about jerking off yesterday. Wrote:

"Male sexuality should be approached from the concept of pleasure rather than accomplishment,"
I didn't much care for this quote.
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#18

Article: Why Do We Punish Men for Expressing Their Sexual Desires?

Guys, I don't think rape in gaming applies to anyone in this board. Don't offense that term unless you're regular viewer in http://www.gelbooru.com

If you are having a normal conversation with a girl, and reading her cues and body language, and escalating conversation appropriately, you can talk sex.

Obviously if you're 23, knowing how to get from "Hi, my name is Leroy" to "you ever fantasie about being tied up?" it's hard. But read Bang/Day Bang, gain knowledge, and feelings about these SJW women get replace with coldblooded power to express your interests. I believe in the books.

That writer woman is just writing books to make money to pay her bills, so she can travel in Greece/Turkey and game there, guilt free. No point hating. Her target market doesn't shave, probably wear crocs, with hairy nipples. No threat. Just laugh at her. She is Bizarro Roosh for writing books for women to not enjoy sex.
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