[HighSpeed_LowDrag]

(01-30-2015 08:12 PM)Truth Teller Wrote:  

"No Nazi documentation describing the Holocaust." Another bullshit claim.

Himmler gave a 1942 report "Report to the Fuhrer on fighting against gangs" giving a figure of 342,000 Jews killed in the time period covered by the report.

1941 Jager report mentions Jews being exterminated in the Baltic states.

Korherr report: Over 2.5 million Jews have been moved to "special treatment" (German: Soberbehandlung). Eichmann testifies that Soberbehandlung is a euphemism for mass murder.

Add to the above:

Himmler's October 1943 Posen speeches where he makes explicit reference to the extermination of European Jewry.

The Hofle Telegram intercepted by British codebreakers that gave the numbers of Jews exterminated at the Akton Reinhardt camps (Majdanek, Sobibor, Treblinka, Belzec) up to the period ending December 31, 1942.

HSLD

[scorpion]

(01-30-2015 08:12 PM)Truth Teller Wrote:  

"No Nazi documentation describing the Holocaust." Another bullshit claim.

Himmler gave a 1942 report "Report to the Fuhrer on fighting against gangs" giving a figure of 342,000 Jews killed in the time period covered by the report.

1941 Jager report mentions Jews being exterminated in the Baltic states.

Korherr report: Over 2.5 million Jews have been moved to "special treatment" (German: Soberbehandlung). Eichmann testifies that Soberbehandlung is a euphemism for mass murder.

None of these documents are regarded as credible in proving the extermination thesis, either because they are highly probable forgeries (gangs report, Jaeger report) or because they simply do not say anything at all without absurdly interpreting "code words" (Korherr report). It's also obvious to point out that you can't have it both ways - either the Nazis were speaking in code about the extermination program or they weren't. And since only extremely dubious documents like Jaeger and the gangs report explicitly mention the killing of Jews, most Holocaust historians embrace the code hypothesis. It's also important to note that none of these documents have anything to do with gas chambers.

And by the way, it is not just my opinion that none of those documents stand up to scrutiny. That's the opinion of the vast majority of Holocaust scholars and historians. I will quote Jurgen Graf in his rebuttal of Hilberg's Destruction of the European Jews (regarded as the supreme work documenting the Holocaust):





So essentially, given access to the millions upon millions of pages worth of Nazi records, most of which were seized immediately after the sudden collapse of the Third Reich (and thus couldn't be edited/doctored by the Allies or disposed of ahead of time by the Nazis) we find no documents that can even remotely suggest a deliberate extermination policy. Further, the majority of the dubious documents we do have were "discovered" by the Soviets years after the war ended, giving them plenty of time and motivation to produce forgeries. And yet even with additional time, these documents come with no supporting evidence whatsoever. Literally just a piece of paper that came out of a typewriter.

Given the sheer logistical and technical requirements with murdering six million people and disposing of their bodies without a trace, it is impossible to believe that the Nazis were able to destroy every piece of documentation and communication required for the organization of the program, except these highly dubious reports. The code word theory is therefore the only even remotely believable option, and it is incredibly farfetched in its own right. Imagine trying to run a company while only speaking in code - even to the most lowly employee! It beggars belief that anything could be accomplished at all, much less with such precision that no physical or documentary evidence remained at all.

[scorpion]

(01-30-2015 08:24 PM)HighSpeed_LowDrag Wrote:  

Add to the above:

Himmler's October 1943 Posen speeches where he makes explicit reference to the extermination of European Jewry.

The Hofle Telegram intercepted by British codebreakers that gave the numbers of Jews exterminated at the Akton Reinhardt camps (Majdanek, Sobibor, Treblinka, Belzec) up to the period ending December 31, 1942.

HSLD

Both of these are unconvincing as evidence of extermination.

The Posen speech - again, we must ask, if this program of extermination was so secret that the Nazis referred to it entirely in code and euphemisms, why was Himmler speaking openly about it in front of hundreds of men? And why was it recorded?

The Hofle telegram - This is just a record of passenger counts on the coming and going of trains at transit camps. Presenting this as evidence of extermination is like me handing you the passenger manifest of an airline flight and saying that clearly, all of these people are on some kind of death list.

[scorpion]

This is what supporter of the extermination theory are reduced to: desperately quoting dubious documents and speeches.

They can present zero physical or forensic evidence, despite the fact that they allege SIX MILLION people were murdered. For visual reference, that is 100 stadiums holding 60,000 people each. That is simply an enormous mass of humanity. This is the crux of the problem: the sheer weight and magnitude of the six million number. It is simply impossible to account for the extermination of this many people, completely without a trace, in the facilities used, in the time allotted and in the wartime conditions present in Nazi Germany. Given the enormity of the crime, there should be mountains of physical evidence. We can't even find an anthill. Instead, we get typewritten documents "discovered" years after the war ended and speeches. But not a single trace of the six million themselves. In order to prove a murder, the most obvious piece of evidence is a body. Here we have alleged six million murders - and yet we can't even find a single body of a gas chamber victim. We can't even find a picture of an operational gas chamber, or of a "gas van". We have six million murders, but zero bodies, and zero murder weapons. For a crime of such magnitude, this is simply unbelievable.

[Malekhit]

Scorpion I just can't believe there is someone in this world that believes that holocaust didn't happen.
Number doesn't matter if it was 3 or 6 million is so staggering amount you cant imagine it. The fact stays the same there was holocaust and not only jews were prosecuted but also gypsies, and slovians (polish russian ukrine etc).

There is zero evidence because if you were between 1-14 you were going to gas chamber then to oven. If you were to old same story. If you were to weak same story. if you died guess what, oven. All of the gassed people were cremated or burned in open fire pit....

See I will tell you same about the person that was cremated show me physical evidence he was cremated you will show me the ash and I will say it can be just coal......

No pictures of gas chambers ?! have you been in aushwitz I guess not.... because if you were you would knew there are even nail marks on walls of gas chambers.... photos of gas chamber !!!!!

Here is some data how many bodies were burned for you scorpion Krematorium Data Sheet Aushwitz

Scorpion you claimed you read about holocaust I call this bullshit I bet you just don't believe it, and you typed in google why holocaust never happened and now you claim to dedicated hours of research. You are like these wanna be tough guys that I see on streets but they quickly soften up when you confront them. I can tell cause your signature is a jacket from the movie driver (aka beta fantasy...)

peace

Malekhit.

[Deluge]

(01-30-2015 02:33 PM)scorpion Wrote:  

And I have no idea why you keep harping on population numbers, especially pre-war. How do pre-war numbers prove how many died during the war? The issue is not pre-war numbers, the issue is the difficulty of measuring accurate post-war numbers.

We know how many Jews are alive right now in 2015, and can extrapolate back to the end of the war using immigration, fertility and intermarriage data. We know for sure how many Jews arrived in Israel, the U.S etc. after the war. Unless both the Nazi's own and all the pre Russian Revolution figures for Europe's Jewish population grossly overestimated it, it's blatantly obvious that roughly half of Europe's Jewish population went missing sometime between 1942 and fall of the USSR. You can pull all the mental gymnastics you want but that fact isn't going away. It's pretty clear you don't have an answer for this since every time I've brought it up you've dodged the question.

[berserk]

(01-30-2015 10:27 PM)Malekhit Wrote:  

No pictures of gas chambers ?! have you been in aushwitz I guess not.... because if you were you would knew there are even nail marks on walls of gas chambers.... photos of gas chamber !!!!!

Do you even read your own sources?

Quote:

The Krema I gas chamber in the main Auschwitz camp, shown in the photo above, is a reconstruction which was done by the Soviet Union in 1947.

[scorpion]

(01-30-2015 10:33 PM)Deluge Wrote:  

(01-30-2015 02:33 PM)scorpion Wrote:  

And I have no idea why you keep harping on population numbers, especially pre-war. How do pre-war numbers prove how many died during the war? The issue is not pre-war numbers, the issue is the difficulty of measuring accurate post-war numbers.

We know how many Jews are alive right now in 2015, and can extrapolate back to the end of the war using immigration, fertility and intermarriage data. We know for sure how many Jews arrived in Israel, the U.S etc. after the war. Unless both the Nazi's own and all the pre Russian Revolution figures for Europe's Jewish population grossly overestimated it, it's blatantly obvious that roughly half of Europe's Jewish population went missing sometime between 1942 and fall of the USSR. You can pull all the mental gymnastics you want but that fact isn't going away. It's pretty clear you don't have an answer for this since every time I've brought it up you've dodged the question.

I've already answered this. The majority of the missing ended up behind the Iron Curtain, where many stayed, which exacerbated the already difficult problem of getting an accurate population count. No mental gymnastics or dodging required. It's very simple: an accurate count was possible before the war, but impossible after the war.

And frankly, if six million people were murdered, there's going to be a lot more evidence than numbers on a population chart. I really don't understand how so many people can miss the forest for the trees here: you have six million people supposedly murdered and all you can present as evidence is dubious documents and population statistics which obviously could not be measured accurately given the chaotic circumstances? Why isn't there more compelling evidence than this for the greatest crime in human history?

You couldn't convict a man for a single murder based on this evidence, much less six million murders. No bodies. No murder weapons. No pictures. No orders. No official documents. Nothing. Six million people simply disappeared without a trace, leaving nothing behind but ash. Simply impossible. Of course, this was recognized immediately following the war, which is why the Nuremberg Trials specifically deviated from all existing legal standards for evidence:

Quote:

The Charter of the International Military Tribunal permitted the use of normally inadmissible "evidence." Article 19 specified that "The Tribunal shall not be bound by technical rules of evidence... and shall admit any evidence which it deems to have probative value." Article 21 stipulated: /42

The Tribunal shall not require proof of facts of common knowledge but shall take judicial notice thereof. It shall also take judicial notice of official governmental documents and reports of the United [Allied] Nations, including acts and documents of the committees set up in the various allied countries for the investigation of war crimes, and the records and findings of military and other Tribunals of any of the United [Allied] Nations.

On the basis of these articles, the Tribunal accepted as valid the most dubious "evidence," including hearsay and unsubstantiated reports of Soviet and American "investigative" commissions. For example, the Tribunal accepted an American congressional report that "proved" gas chamber killings at Dachau, and a Polish government report (submitted by the US) that "proved" killings by steam at Treblinka. /43 (No reputable historian now accepts either of these stories.)

[El Chinito loco]

Just curious but how many people have read Anatomy of the Auschwitz Death Camp? I read it 15 years ago. It's like the size of the bible and goes over every minute detail on how the camp operated including the protocol, the chain of command, and where the remains go. The soil surrounding Auschwitz is apparently a bog of human remains. They drilled a soil sample and when you have that many bodies buried in mass graves (aside from cremation) it creates a kind of waxy dark petroleum like substance over time. It's pretty interesting.

[Deluge]

(01-30-2015 11:01 PM)scorpion Wrote:  

(01-30-2015 10:33 PM)Deluge Wrote:  

(01-30-2015 02:33 PM)scorpion Wrote:  

And I have no idea why you keep harping on population numbers, especially pre-war. How do pre-war numbers prove how many died during the war? The issue is not pre-war numbers, the issue is the difficulty of measuring accurate post-war numbers.

We know how many Jews are alive right now in 2015, and can extrapolate back to the end of the war using immigration, fertility and intermarriage data. We know for sure how many Jews arrived in Israel, the U.S etc. after the war. Unless both the Nazi's own and all the pre Russian Revolution figures for Europe's Jewish population grossly overestimated it, it's blatantly obvious that roughly half of Europe's Jewish population went missing sometime between 1942 and fall of the USSR. You can pull all the mental gymnastics you want but that fact isn't going away. It's pretty clear you don't have an answer for this since every time I've brought it up you've dodged the question.

I've already answered this. The majority of the missing ended up behind the Iron Curtain, where many stayed, which exacerbated the already difficult problem of getting an accurate population count. No mental gymnastics or dodging required. It's very simple: an accurate count was possible before the war, but impossible after the war

You're still dodging the facts completely. There's a few hundred thousand Jews left in Eastern Europe today, at most half a million more Soviet Jews in the U.S, a million in Israel, and very small numbers elsewhere. If most of the missing 6 million disappeared behind the Iron Curtain (on top of the existing couple million historians actually estimate remained there), why were they still missing after it came down?

[scorpion]

(01-30-2015 11:19 PM)Deluge Wrote:  

You're still dodging the facts completely. There's a few hundred thousand Jews left in Eastern Europe today, at most half a million more Soviet Jews in the U.S, a million in Israel, and very small numbers elsewhere. If most of the missing 6 million disappeared behind the Iron Curtain (on top of the existing couple million historians actually estimate remained there), why were they still missing after it came down?

How many times do I have to say this: the population numbers were impossible to accurately measure after the war, which makes subsequent numbers impossible to extrapolate accurately backwards from. And this is not even factoring in things like name changes, or Jews who decided they would be better off passing themselves off as Russian. It's simply impossible to know.

But really, there is no need for such speculation. You keep talking about numbers on a page, I'm asking you to show me a body or a gas chamber. You have six million dead, you only need one body to prove your case. Where is it?

[scorpion]

Anyway, I'm taking a break from this thread for now. I'll check up on it tomorrow night. I get no pleasure talking about this stuff. It's very depressing, either way. The persecutions and deaths are bad enough even without the gas chambers. There's no need to invent them to sympathize with the plight of the Jews during the war.

[Deluge]

(01-30-2015 11:33 PM)scorpion Wrote:  

(01-30-2015 11:19 PM)Deluge Wrote:  

You're still dodging the facts completely. There's a few hundred thousand Jews left in Eastern Europe today, at most half a million more Soviet Jews in the U.S, a million in Israel, and very small numbers elsewhere. If most of the missing 6 million disappeared behind the Iron Curtain (on top of the existing couple million historians actually estimate remained there), why were they still missing after it came down?

How many times do I have to say this: the population numbers were impossible to accurately measure after the war, which makes subsequent numbers impossible to extrapolate accurately backwards from. And this is not even factoring in things like name changes, or Jews who decided they would be better off passing themselves off as Russian. It's simply impossible to know.

You've stated you think 1 million Jews died during the war, and 5 million extra Jews remained behind the Iron Curtain on top of the official estimates, which would account for the pre-war figures which you admit are accurate. You're also not debating how many Jews are around right now in 2015. That would mean in the mere 50 years until the fall of the USSR 5 million of these 7 million Jews behind the Iron Curtain passed off as Gentiles or were otherwise completely absorbed into their Slavic populations and disappeared without a trace, without notice from the Soviet authorities who tracked their Jewish population, without any comment from the local Slavs or remaining Jews that such an assimilation took place and with the proliferation of personal genomics and genetic testing over the last 15 years, any evidence that tens of millions Gentile Eastern Europeans have such recent Jewish ancestry like you'd expect from such an assimilation.

(01-30-2015 11:33 PM)scorpion Wrote:  

But really, there is no need for such speculation. You keep talking about numbers on a page, I'm asking you to show me a body or a gas chamber. You have six million dead, you only need one body to prove your case. Where is it?

I don't know enough about that topic to comment, but if you only want 1 body this post above seems to have them in spades.

(01-30-2015 11:05 PM)El Chinito loco Wrote:  

Just curious but how many people have read Anatomy of the Auschwitz Death Camp? I read it 15 years ago. It's like the size of the bible and goes over every minute detail on how the camp operated including the protocol, the chain of command, and where the remains go. The soil surrounding Auschwitz is apparently a bog of human remains. They drilled a soil sample and when you have that many bodies buried in mass graves (aside from cremation) it creates a kind of waxy dark petroleum like substance over time. It's pretty interesting.

[Truth Teller]

(01-30-2015 09:32 PM)scorpion Wrote:  

This is what supporter of the extermination theory are reduced to: desperately quoting dubious documents and speeches.

They can present zero physical or forensic evidence, despite the fact that they allege SIX MILLION people were murdered. For visual reference, that is 100 stadiums holding 60,000 people each. That is simply an enormous mass of humanity. This is the crux of the problem: the sheer weight and magnitude of the six million number. It is simply impossible to account for the extermination of this many people, completely without a trace, in the facilities used, in the time allotted and in the wartime conditions present in Nazi Germany. Given the enormity of the crime, there should be mountains of physical evidence. We can't even find an anthill. Instead, we get typewritten documents "discovered" years after the war ended and speeches. But not a single trace of the six million themselves. In order to prove a murder, the most obvious piece of evidence is a body. Here we have alleged six million murders - and yet we can't even find a single body of a gas chamber victim. We can't even find a picture of an operational gas chamber, or of a "gas van". We have six million murders, but zero bodies, and zero murder weapons. For a crime of such magnitude, this is simply unbelievable.

No. You're basically dismissing what we're claiming through hand-waving. What evidence do you have of these things being forgeries?

And by the way, when Eichmann was on trial, he testified that the term "treatment" was synonymous with extermination. Eichmann basically ran the deportation processes. I believe what he says over whatever hand-waving claims you're going to make.

By the way, Graf should know that William L. Shirer's Rise and Fall of the Third Reich is at least 25 years out of date. In 1960, it represented outstanding research. Today, it's been eclipsed by 55 years of additional study. Jurgen Graf also doesn't have a history degree, and nor do the vast majority of the people who wrote these "rebuttal works." If the Holocaust is as much of a hoax as you're indicating, a history grad student could rapidly become famous for challenging it. That's how historical research advances, not through consensus. If you can coherently argue (using the actual sources, rather than twisting them) that the Holocaust is a fraud, you're going to become a legend in research.

The same is true in the scientific field. If you can provide concrete evidence that the Big Bang is false, or that the Earth is actually young, you're rapidly going to become a rising star in the community.

No such papers exist. No such papers will be forthcoming. You have nothing but a smokescreen. There are literally millions of pieces of evidence supporting the consensus point of view. There are eyewitnesses attesting to the operation and usage of those gas chambers. Nazi records are incomplete, believe it or not. Berlin was bombed to hell before the Soviets came in. Who knows what was lost?

[Aer]

I'm a little more upset about 60 million young men and women that died in this horrible war over ideology. Fuck semantics at that point.