[jariel]

Quote:

Lance Armstrong, who was stripped of his seven Tour de France victories and banned for life from professional cycling in 2012, said in an interview that he'd again use performance-enhancing drugs if faced with the same circumstances.

"If I was racing in 2015? No, I wouldn't do it again," Armstrong told BBC Sport for an upcoming documentary. "Because I don't think you have to do it again. If you take me back to 1995, when it was completely and totally pervasive? [I'd] probably do it again."

Armstrong raced professionally from 1992 to 2011 and won seven consecutive Tour de France titles from 1999 to 2005. However, in 2012, those titles were stripped after a U.S. Anti-Doping Agency investigation found that he had used PEDs during his cycling career. The UCI agreed with the USADA's decision to vacate Armstrong's titles and ban him for life.

Armstrong maintains that the sport -- and not just him -- was riddled with PED usage and that he was just keeping up with his competitors.

"It's an answer that needs some explanation," Armstrong told BBC Sport. "I look at everything when I made that decision -- when the whole peloton made that decision. We get it, it was a bad decision in an imperfect time, but it happened.

"I know what happened to the sport of cycling from 1990 to 2005. I saw its growth, I saw its expansion. I know what happened to the industry ... do all those people want to, do we want to take it away? I don't think anybody says yes."

During his cycling career, Armstrong repeatedly faced allegations of PED use. He denied all allegations during his career until coming clean in January 2013.

"Listen, if I go back to 1995 -- and some started earlier, some a little later, but let's take that as ground zero -- I think we're all sorry," Armstrong told BBC Sport. "And do you know what we're sorry for? We're sorry that we were put in that place. None of us wanted to be in that place. We all would have loved to have competed man on man, bread, water, naturally clean, whatever you want [to] call it.

"We're sorry. Yeah, we're sorry that we were put in a place and we looked around as desperate kids and thought: 'God, I've got to go back to Plano [Texas] and maybe go back to school, or get a job, or work in a bike shop or work in a factory.' Or a kid goes back to Australia, or Eastern Europe, or the fields of France."

http://espn.go.com/sports/endurance/stor...cumstances

[TravelerKai]

Lance is an interesting guy. Enormous asshole with the ego to match it, extremely driven, type A personality, stubborn, and very Machiavellian or Dark Triad like. He is probably the most comfortable person in the world in a way mentally. Most people, when they say they do not give a fuck about something, there might be a 1-5% doubt or squirm in there. He had none of that. He was basically under the condition of, catch me first and then I will admit to it, until then, fuck off. I wonder how that fight with cancer affected his personality from his perspective, behind closed doors and no cameras. I bet he has a very Scarface like bravado if you could be around him away from cameras and stuff.

His masculine frame is something to study as well. Everyone believed him hardcore up until he was caught red handed. He could intimidate literally anyone.

[TigerMandingo]

I don't see how you can bike up and down an entire country for 2 weeks without using PEDs. Most people are out of breath after a ride around the block. These dudes are beasts at what they do. Cycling is absolutely brutal.

[Saweeep]

Every pro cyclist is geared out of the eyeballs.

Simple as that.

[Benoit]

(01-27-2015 01:36 PM)Cunnilinguist Wrote:  

I don't see how you can bike up and down an entire country for 2 weeks without using PEDs. Most people are out of breath after a ride around the block. These dudes are beasts at what they do. Cycling is absolutely brutal.

I can see how you can do it, but not when everyone else around you is chemically boosted.

I'd be really interested to see what kinds of sports they'd have to come up with if PEDs were legalised. Speed, strength, endurance, recovery, what would that add up to?

[MY DETROIT PLAYAS]

He & Barry Bonds are basically the same people

Unrepentent, Proud, Stubborn & Ego-Driven

Bonds', only leg to stand on is that he hasn't been "caught" therefore ostracized and humiliated in the public form (outside of exemption from the Hall of Fame)

Both Armstrong and Bonds are able to reason away PED'S because 'hey, everyone else was doing it during my era'

Barry is probably the biggest sports tragedy ever, because without the juice he would still be in the top 5 players ever discussion

[DannyAlberta]

interesting take from him.

one thing i am very prone to disagree with is that performance enhancing drug use is somehow less pervasive now than it was in the 90s. you look at these guys and see how quickly they get over injuries, how strenuously they train and the feats they accomplish and i just can't see it being any less pervasive.

perhaps better disguised, less obvious and more sophisticated. and it's possibly that way because of how lance himself was infamously caught.

[makaveli]

Lance.. Being a cyclist myself he was my childhood idol.

I'm fascinated about how he talks of himself in third person when he speaks of himself in the past. That's what Stalin would do, talk of Stalin as an entity itself. A way of distancing one from oneself..
The rhetoric Lance uses could be very useful to study.. That guy is always asking himself rhethorical questions, both to give himself time to think and also to add drama to his speech. "Would I use drugs again to raise money for cancer awareness? - Hell yeah"

He uses the word "ABSOLUTELY" a lot in the Oprah confession interview. He uses so strong, confident words and has no hesitation or doubt in his voice. He is so convincing, that even when all evidence were against him, a lot of people in the cycling community would still believe him.

Lance is really Machiavellian. I read Tyler Hamilton's book, the secret race, and it's really worth reading if you're into cycling.
Lance while fearing Tyler in 2004 as a competitor would call the UCI (international cycling union) and tell them that Tyler had used doping. Tyler would then be called in for at meeting at the UCI and get a warning, telling him that they had an eye on him.. All so lance could disturb the important 3 weeks of training and doping before the tour.

DannyAlberta, yeah agree, nothing has changed.
Froome and Nibali did greater power outputs in the mountains in the last 2 tours than many of lances tour wins.
Froome did 5.96 watts/kilo on 5 mountains in 2013, Nibali did 5.99 watts/kilo on 5 mountains in 2014. Lance did 5.95 watts/kilo in 2002 and the whole top 10 (at least) were doped to the gills. Nothing has changed at all.

Lance is a better liar than a truth teller - Because he is still lying saying that he did his comeback -2009 and 2010 on bread and water.
Even while "confessing" he is still lying.
And now he is gaining sympathy in the cycling community - because he had always competed in a level playing field, and people begin to realize that.

There are still some people who believe that the whole peloton found jesus in 2006-2007 - but I would say that most people watching the sport just accepts that there is doping and they enjoy it a lot, watching all the drama, seeing people drive their bicycles at super human speeds.

What I really liked about the BBC interview now, is that he asks what those cyclists who doped should have done. Go back to the poor family in eastern Europe? Go back to work in a factory in Plano, Texas? Go back to the fields of France and work? every one would have used drugs when the alternative is some times a life without glory and without money..
Lance is still rich. He still won. He still got to experience standing on the podium in paris. He still managed to raise millions of dollars for his cancer foundation. He still gave a lot of kids hope.

[PeruLover12]

(01-27-2015 01:31 PM)TravelerKai Wrote:  

His masculine frame is something to study as well. Everyone believed him hardcore up until he was caught red handed. He could intimidate literally anyone.

Not true that everyone believed him. Many people knew he was bullshitting, one female member of his support staff was in the hospital room when Armstrong openly admitted to his doctor that he used performance enhancing drugs. She spoke up but was shot down by Armstrong for which he later apologized. There was a journalist from Ireland who hounded Armstrong for years about his drug taking but he was ostracized by the powers of the cycling world and banned from the tour. People knew he was doping but he was too big to take down, he was the poster boy of the sport making millions for the sport and sponsors so there was a vested interest in protecting him.

[Travesty]

I was in early college when Lance was big. The yellow wristbands. The live strong gigantic black and white blow up banners on gym walls.

I thought he was the biggest douchebag I had ever seen right off the bat. I remember everyone else loved him. I also thought everyone wearing those yellow bands were (I still think those of you that wore them still are!) douche wannabes.

Respect him, but the guy is a monster inside.

[TravelerKai]

(01-27-2015 03:50 PM)The Ligurian Wrote:  

(01-27-2015 01:31 PM)TravelerKai Wrote:  

His masculine frame is something to study as well. Everyone believed him hardcore up until he was caught red handed. He could intimidate literally anyone.

Not true that everyone believed him. Many people knew he was bullshitting, one female member of his support staff was in the hospital room when Armstrong openly admitted to his doctor that he used performance enhancing drugs. She spoke up but was shot down by Armstrong for which he later apologized. There was a journalist from Ireland who hounded Armstrong for years about his drug taking but he was ostracized by the powers of the cycling world and banned from the tour. People knew he was doping but he was too big to take down, he was the poster boy of the sport making millions for the sport and sponsors so there was a vested interest in protecting him.

You proved my point. He was so domineering that the very few people that did not believe him were shouted down as haters and the mainstream view was that he was legit. At least in America. Outside of America you have a point, many thought he was bullshit. In the US, he was untouchable and made everyone here make French jokes and it galvanized an US vs The World feeling. It was like we all collectively felt like the world was hating on our guy because he was awesome.

Most people did not realize he was bullshit until much later. The suspicion did not really get steam until after more wins and certain defectors. He enjoyed the love from the majority for a while.

[TravelerKai]

(01-27-2015 03:56 PM)Travesty444 Wrote:  

I was in early college when Lance was big. The yellow wristbands. The live strong gigantic black and white blow up banners on gym walls.

I thought he was the biggest douchebag I had ever seen right off the bat. I remember everyone else loved him. I also thought everyone wearing those yellow bands were (I still think those of you that wore them still are!) douche wannabes.

Respect him, but the guy is a monster inside.

I recall multiple times people trying to get me to wear those things. I refused everytime. Like you, I could see the douchebag in him and I don't rock other men's stuff like that anyway. I don't wear Jordan gear either. I keep it pretty neutral.

His Livestrong website used to be a fairly nice resource. I haven't been there since the scandal broke. I figured it would turn into a boneyard.

[VolandoVengoVolandoVoy]

Lance Armstrong probably looks at pictures of himself when he faps.

[MY DETROIT PLAYAS]

I'll give it to him, the guy can keep a secret and will probably go down with the ship in doing so

What I can't rock with is that during the 7 straight Tour de France win streak, he left a lot of carnage in his wake.

Reputations were smeared, people were silenced and many of those who were simply interested in the truth (who turned out to be 100% on point) were bullied in the process. Yes, it was a good look for the U.S., but sometime during that run I knew he couldn't have been the athletically superior to the other cyclers who were being outed. Like my mom used to say "Everybody can't be lying on you"

Greg Lemond (3 time Tour De Force champion) predated Lance but he had the scoop early on, when nobody wanted to listen. He was instead accused of just being jealous because Armstrong had ascended to his spot

[Flint]

Relevant:

[Chunnel]

(01-27-2015 06:13 PM)Flint Wrote:  

Relevant:

Armstrong raised $0.00 for cancer research. Livestrong and the Lance Armstrong Foundation is all about "cancer awareness" (whatever the hell that means). Livestrong used to get very poor marks in efficiency, wasting tons on bullshit funding, parties, benefits, and chaffeuring LA around the world..

Anyone wanting to donate money for cancer research is much better going Jimmy V or American Cancer Society or any other far more reputable organizations.

[GeroMeroHero]

If everyone else (or at least the top guys) did it then I don't care that he did.

I do care that he seemed to use everyone's pity for him to be an asshole but I blame the simps who let it happen more than I blame him.

[TigerMandingo]

Sports fans, here in North America especially, tend to be very whiny and weird. I remember listening to Mike and the Mad Dog (sports talk radio in NYC, hilarious by the way) and a lot of callers were personally outraged that Barry Bonds or Armstrong were using steroids when these stories broke. It's as if it was a personal offense against them or they were betrayed somehow.

It boggles my mind how people are so emotionally invested in these sports teams/athletes to the point where they are actually distressed when something happens. When did sports become anything more than mere entertainment? Get a life for chrissakes.

I look at Armstrong, Bonds, Stallone etc. and think "Holy shit, look at what these guys have achieved/can do".

The average sports fan is like "I call bullshit" while sipping on a Bud Light and slipping farts on his couch.

[Chunnel]

(01-27-2015 08:40 PM)GeroMeroHero Wrote:  

If everyone else (or at least the top guys) did it then I don't care that he did.

I do care that he seemed to use everyone's pity for him to be an asshole but I blame the simps who let it happen more than I blame him.

Its not as night and day as that.

Everyone responds in a different manner to drugs. In Armstrong's case he would take EPO (the classic cycling drug of the 90s) and experience massive increases, while more naturally gifted cyclists (for stage races that is) like Jan Ullrich, Michael Rasmussen, Marco Pantani, and even Tyler Hamilton would experience gains but not on the same magnitude as Armstrong.

Armstrong was a good 1-day classics racer but a mule in stage races (read not finishing TDF) before his cancer, but once EPO came around leveling the playing field, he automatically shot to the top ranks of the stage race world. In the late 90s early 2000s you really saw a stark change in stage racing where groups would march up mountains together and it was nearly impossible to launch a solo breakaway and outride the peloton. EPO came around and turned Armstrong, Bjarne Riis, Alex Zulle, Tony Rominger, and others from one day specialists, time trial specialists, and pack fodder into legitimate contenders.

In Armstrong's case he was always 1 step ahead of his competition, because he was willing to spend the most on his doping regime (Dr. Michele Ferrari was a brilliant mad scientist when it came to doping), and he surrounded himself with individuals who would buy into his doping scheme and work like servants for him. Armstrong and US Postal had a huge advantage on the field with blood transfusion before Bjarne Riis and others were tipped off and willing to try operations bordering on the verge of life-threatening insanity.

This is why I do not the like the "everyone did it so its okay" argument.

[CactusCat589]

I honestly never thought he was that big a deal. It's cycling. He was good at it; good for him.

[Grange]

That was a damning quote by itself but it wasn't really the main point of the article. He is mainly saying that to compete at the high levels in 95 you had to be on EPO, and if you put him back in 95 he'd want to compete at the top. A lot less controversial statement. The ultimate blame is on the UCI and the national governing bodies (cough, Italy, cough) for letting it get so out of control.

[GeroMeroHero]

(01-27-2015 09:13 PM)Chunnel Wrote:  

(01-27-2015 08:40 PM)GeroMeroHero Wrote:  

If everyone else (or at least the top guys) did it then I don't care that he did.

I do care that he seemed to use everyone's pity for him to be an asshole but I blame the simps who let it happen more than I blame him.

Its not as night and day as that.

Everyone responds in a different manner to drugs. In Armstrong's case he would take EPO (the classic cycling drug of the 90s) and experience massive increases, while more naturally gifted cyclists (for stage races that is) like Jan Ullrich, Michael Rasmussen, Marco Pantani, and even Tyler Hamilton would experience gains but not on the same magnitude as Armstrong.

Armstrong was a good 1-day classics racer but a mule in stage races (read not finishing TDF) before his cancer, but once EPO came around leveling the playing field, he automatically shot to the top ranks of the stage race world. In the late 90s early 2000s you really saw a stark change in stage racing where groups would march up mountains together and it was nearly impossible to launch a solo breakaway and outride the peloton. EPO came around and turned Armstrong, Bjarne Riis, Alex Zulle, Tony Rominger, and others from one day specialists, time trial specialists, and pack fodder into legitimate contenders.

In Armstrong's case he was always 1 step ahead of his competition, because he was willing to spend the most on his doping regime (Dr. Michele Ferrari was a brilliant mad scientist when it came to doping), and he surrounded himself with individuals who would buy into his doping scheme and work like servants for him. Armstrong and US Postal had a huge advantage on the field with blood transfusion before Bjarne Riis and others were tipped off and willing to try operations bordering on the verge of life-threatening insanity.

This is why I do not the like the "everyone did it so its okay" argument.

I see. Very interesting

[makaveli]

(01-27-2015 09:13 PM)Chunnel Wrote:  

In Armstrong's case he was always 1 step ahead of his competition, because he was willing to spend the most on his doping regime (Dr. Michele Ferrari was a brilliant mad scientist when it came to doping), and he surrounded himself with individuals who would buy into his doping scheme and work like servants for him. Armstrong and US Postal had a huge advantage on the field with blood transfusion before Bjarne Riis and others were tipped off and willing to try operations bordering on the verge of life-threatening insanity.

This is why I do not the like the "everyone did it so its okay" argument.

Well Bjarne Riis was called mr. 60 percent because of having a dangerously high hematocrit value of 60.. He did better climbing rates per hour than lance.. then came the 50 percent hematocrit value limit in 97' and then we saw some slower times besides from Pantani.



In 99' 00' 01' and 02' Lance definitely was ahead in terms of blood doping with the help of dr. michelle ferrari. But then gynecologist and blood doping specialist eufemiano fuentes came around, so that guys like Jan Ullrich, Vinokourov, Tyler Hamilton could compete on the same doping levels as Armstrong. in the 03' tour it was a really close race and armtrong only won by a minute and a second down to Ullrich. 2003 was all fair competition.

Armstrong was not the man who reinvented doping after the festina scandal in 98'.. Even Pantani was thrown out of the giro in 99' with a hematocrit value above the permitted 50. So doping was still going strong even before lance's Tourin 99'. And if Lance hadn't been the one pushing the arms race up again, it would have just come from manolo saiz or rudy pevenage or something.

So everyone really did it, and they rode faster than lance years before.

[Benoit]

A couple of interesting BBC articles about TDF power calculations and signs of doping. Basically stating that widespread doping was obvious to anyone who looked at the numbers.

The question in my mind is whether the 'authorities' secretly approved because of the increased popularity of the sport, or if they looked the other way because they didn't want to damage their brand?

Tour de France: Are drug-free cyclists slower?

Quote:

"In the late 1990s and early 2000s if you were going to be competitive and win the Tour de France you would have to be able to cycle between 6.4 and 6.7 watts per kilogram at the end of a day's stage.

"What we are seeing now, in the last three or four years, is that the speed of the front of the peloton [of] men like Bradley Wiggins, Chris Froome and Vincenzo Nibali, is about 10% down compared to that generation and now the power output at the front is about 6W/kg."

He says that they should actually be getting faster, not slower, because of advances in technology and sports science.

He thinks that what we are seeing now is a human race as opposed to the pharmaceutical races we saw in the past.

"The physiological implications of riding 6.5W/kg are for me, as a physiologist, beyond belief. What they are doing now is physiologically plausible."

Chris Froome: Crunching the Tour de France data

Quote:

He concludes that Chris Froome's performance isn't superhuman, or "mutant" - but simply at the upper bounds of what is physiologically possible.

"The level of performance is to be expected according to his power profile between 2011 and now. The power profile hasn't changed in the last two years. He is the same cyclist," Grappe says.

[amity]

Very interesting thread guys.
Really impressed by the level of debate consistently on RVF, not just on women and personal development but also on topics like this one.
It's great to see, honestly it's a level above pretty much any other website I've come across.