[General Mayhem]

This thread got more attention than I expected.

I want to clarify one thing. I know I called it the ultimate test of game, but some people have taken that too literally. Maybe I should have used a different term. Maybe they are just the ultimate test of your worth as a man. If I could edit the title I would. Anyway..

Women are the ultimate mirrors whether you like it or not. You can tell yourself that you are the shit. You can get a girl to think you are the shit for a night. Neither of those things are hard, but what happens when a girl actually gets to know you and then decides you are nothing special? Are you still the shit?

Women are dangerous. They can go from pleasant to downright evil. They can suck guys in and drain the life out of them. If you can't dominate a woman's true nature and hypergamy over the long term are you really a master of women?

If your personality doesn't keep her enamored over the long term are you really that interesting?

Some players just don't want to fuck with LTRs for legitimate reasons. That is an entirely different discussion, but I think a lot of us protect ourselves by sticking to short flings and one night stands.

LaidNYC talked about this here.

Quote:

So love is living in scarcity. The girl who falls in mutual love with you is not easily replaceable. It would take time to build that with another girl.

That, the relationship experts will tell you, is bad. The one who has the most power is the one who needs the other one least. This is true. But the goal of making all relationships replaceable denies the human experience. You'll have all the power over relationships that don't matter at all. An autistic feels no love, is he then the most powerful man there is?

[Lizard King]

(01-22-2015 02:27 AM)Handsome Creepy Eel Wrote:  

No they're not. If you need to use a lot of game on your girlfriend, it means you picked the wrong girl.

Sorry, but that is too simplistic and reductionist.

Game is essentially a codification of male-female interaction.

Understanding and application of Game is of utmost value to a male in an LTR. A female will try to elevate herself in that dynamic(hypergamy) whether she be Pre-Historic or Millennial.

Game will help a man control sexual polarity, because contemporary social programming ignores natural forces.

[Dalaran1991]

Quote:

Women are the ultimate mirrors whether you like it or not. You can tell yourself that you are the shit. You can get a girl to think you are the shit for a night. Neither of those things are hard, but what happens when a girl actually gets to know you and then decides you are nothing special? Are you still the shit?

This is probably why a lot of people are very good at pick up but horrible in holding long term relationship. They run "glass cannon" game that blows a girl mind in the shortest amount of time possible, but then the glamour wears off quickly. Once it does the player suddenly finds himself naked with nothing to offer.

Quote:

Women are dangerous. They can go from pleasant to downright evil.

True words. That's exactly what happened the night my ex broke up with me. She went from being my "kitty" who asks permission for everything (even to eat the food that she bought herself!) to "I hate you and I don't want to see you anymore. These are all your stuffs. Take it and leave me alone" Almost overnight.

Quote:

If your personality doesn't keep her enamored over the long term are you really that interesting?

Sometimes people are just not compatible. Other than that, LTR takes both sides to put in the effort. It's not your job to keep her attracted alone. That by itself means there was never a LTR in the first place.

It's up to the girl who decides if the LTR and you are worth it for her to put in the effort. Having a women dedicated to keep you around and support you I believe it's still one of the best experiences in the world. I look at my grandparents and some older couples I know who still hold each other hand while skating on the sidewalk and it warms even my cold bitter heart.

Sadly I think it's increasingly difficult to have that kind of experience now. Nowadays every fucking LTR is a game of prisoner's dilemna where each of you are afraid who's gonna squeal first and each seeks to protect his own ego.

Quote:

Some players just don't want to fuck with LTRs for legitimate reasons. That is an entirely different discussion, but I think a lot of us protect ourselves by sticking to short flings and one night stands.

No matter how much of a player you are, we as humans have a need to feel bonded, to feel a deep connection with another human being (assuming you are neither psychopathic nor austistic) If they keep hitting the field, I'm sure all players will eventually have a few ONS/fast pull where they can feel this deep connection. Sometimes chemistry exists and you both feel like pouring your heart out to the other, knowing that you probably won't see each other again. In sociology we call this "Simmel's stranger". It's very satisfying and I was lucky enough to have tasted it once.

But I don't think we have a choice in the matter. Let's face it, women and societies are fucked up these days more than they were in the past. The whole idea of LTR or monogamy in the first place have been to keep social order and economic stability by providing beta men with sexual rewards for their work. Now all of that are crumbling down. Mini-LTR and ONS are the name of the game today, for better.

**********

This is my 7-months LTR story if it could be of help to anyone:

I SNL my ex when I met her a bit drunk in the subway. Followed standard good gaming procedures until 3rd bang, things work out well. She always buy me breakfast in the morning. We never officially "declared" a LTR. She herself told me that I should go date other girls, just dont bring STD back. She is very conservative Korean Christian, not the party type. Very submissive and pleasant to be around. She does my laundry, clean up after me, sew my socks, buy me dinner, give heads willingly, calls me daddy (so much that she has never spoken my real name) etc. I cooked.

After a while I start to almost live at her place (she's way richer than me) and slowly drift into a LTR that was never declared. Things are always great. Almost too great. Except for a few bouts of tantrum from her that in hindsight was everything wrong with this LTR:

She opened up herself willingly, talking about her deep insecurities and all that. How she has low self-esteem. How she sees herself as a "terrible person". How she gets really stressed out under pressure. How she can't stand when I make fun of the world.

And what I did? I never adjusted. I steamrolled all her problems with the same asshole attitude "I am the best" "you have no problems, it's just in your head" and a lot of negs. I told her "I love you" in a non-serious tone and she always thought I was joking "No you don't love me". I also thought a good fuck solves all problems. Well it didn't, but it covers them up until they blow up in my face. I made her even more insecure with my gungho attitude.

Oh and of course I cheated. Around November I SNL my first solid 8 white girl. Awesome chemistry I talked about earlier, but she wasn't willing to go for a second bang, and for a few weeks all I thought about was how to bang her again.

Of course I think my main girl smelled that. She was trying to be even more feminine to win me back but I pushed away even further. Oh yeah, jealousy game works gents but only so much until a girl's patience blows up. Then hell has no fury like a woman's scorned. Which is what happened to me. Ironic how it was two days after I took her out for her birthday.

[Handsome Creepy Eel]

(01-22-2015 05:50 PM)Lizard King Wrote:  

(01-22-2015 02:27 AM)Handsome Creepy Eel Wrote:  

No they're not. If you need to use a lot of game on your girlfriend, it means you picked the wrong girl.

Sorry, but that is too simplistic and reductionist.

Game is essentially a codification of male-female interaction.

Understanding and application of Game is of utmost value to a male in an LTR. A female will try to elevate herself in that dynamic (hypergamy) whether she be Pre-Historic or Millennial.

Game will help a man control sexual polarity, because contemporary social programming ignores natural forces.

I have no issue with your complaint, but it needs to be pointed out that "Pre-Historic woman" and "Milennial woman" are actually one and the same. All the complaints we have about women nowadays are due to them being able to behave as if they were living in Paleocene again, only even more intensely, due to them being shielded from negative consequences of their actions.

The woman that does not need a lot of game that I am talking about here is the average woman that belongs to most the recorded history period (a period roughly between 6000 BC and 1900 AD), nowadays a minority around the world and practically non-existent in the West. You can call her the "Civilized woman".

Also note that by "lots of game" I mean "Western game", not "World game", which I consider simply natural male behaviour.

So I'll try to be more specific: if you need to think about push-pull, frame, negs or keeping the upper hand with your LTR, then you chose poorly.

[WestIndianArchie]

(01-22-2015 05:08 PM)General Mayhem Wrote:  

This thread got more attention than I expected.

This is a great topic.

It's evergreen, and can take a lot of different directions.

Amongst my non internet influenced pickup friends, long term relationships, monogamy in particular, are considered to be against the essential nature of humanity. The way they phrase it, "Man is not meant to be with one woman for his entire life" But the unmentionable corollary is that woman isn't cut out for it either.

A lot of guys, even players, even red adherents really don't want to deal with the real deal sexuality of women. It only lead to despair. If you've ever banged a better man's woman you have to question your beliefs.

There's a tension between biological reality and living in a civilized society (as opposed to a state of nature).

Long term relationships require more than appeals to her reptilian brain, more than provisioning.

WIA

[Travesty]

^ Yeah it's called damage control by isolating her from the world with children, relatives that live down the street, community events, religion, and you being home constantly to dick her.

Pretty much recruit the entire village to keep your woman in check. Problem is there aren't many villages looking to be recruited.

It's like trying to play a full court press defense with 3 men on the floor nowadays.

[MY DETROIT PLAYAS]

Some guys recognize this occupational hazard within a LTR and they've come up with their own counter measure to a woman's sexuality. They find LTR maintenance, game methods and the like to be too consuming and messy

So they keep their woman barefoot and pregnant knowing that will provide an effective counter balance to her inherent hypergamy

Naturally - they become a fixture in her life and always have a 'legit' reason to ride the turnstile in and out of her life

[WestIndianArchie]

(01-23-2015 12:06 PM)MY DETROIT PLAYAS Wrote:  

Some guys recognize this occupational hazard within a LTR and they've come up with their own counter measure to a woman's sexuality. They find LTR maintenance, game methods and the like to be too consuming and messy

So they keep their woman barefoot and pregnant knowing that will provide an effective counter balance to her inherent hypergamy

Naturally - they become a fixture in her life and always have a 'legit' reason to ride the turnstile in and out of her life

But chicks blow those situations up, all the time.

"Because you not in love anymore, I gotta give you half?" © Chris Rock

You can at least reason with boys who would become suicide martyrs by giving jobs and making women available.

I've been on the gallows too long

WIA

[MY DETROIT PLAYAS]

Point taken

I happen to believe most LTR's don't stand a chance because folks don't truly talk about their expectations, or aren't honest about them. Besides we all know a woman's love is conditional

Many of us have had the experience of getting with a chick who seems to have a bright future and her head screwed on right. She wants nothing more than to complement your hustle, support your goals and be an enhancement to your life

But then 6 months in - she's hypercritical, noncompliant, and 'always knew your painting business' wouldn't work out

Now you're knee deep with this bitch, time invested and wasted.

Repeat & Rinse a few different times and you can see how a man choose to forgo the whole process

[WestIndianArchie]

Call me Sway, cause I ain't got the answers. lol

[kaotic]

I'd like to drop my two cents here.

I've never lived with a girl, I've a 2 - 2 year LTR's.

End of this month with will be a 1 year LTR. I constantly bang on the side.

The only reason she's my main and around is because SHE COMPLEMENTS MY LIFE.

I only see her 2 days a week at most, we do talk in the mornings and at night. I wont call/text at night/mornings once in awhile. I can tell that she gets worried hamster mode.

We haven't had a fight, hardly any disagreement, she knows her place.

(01-22-2015 04:37 AM)Noir Wrote:  

It's a test of character. Your ego will be challenged at times.

Can you handle her past (if she was a slut or conservative)? Absolutely and she was on the conservative side.

Can you handle the fact that she wants to spend time with you all the time? Nope, we like our space and only see eachother twice a week at the most, we both work our asses off.

Can you handle the sacrifices to your personal and social life ? I haven't compromised my social life/personal life, and she knows I wont change. However she is invited into my social life, but everyone knows she's my main despite bringing other girls around.

Can you handle fucking just one woman? I DON"T fuck just her, I'm constantly banging on the side.

Can you handle the fact that she has probably fucked a guy with a bigger dick than you or if she has been in MMF threesomes? Judging from how she acted in the beginning, I doubt that. Sure she might of banged a dude with a bigger dick, but she showed me a text last night bragging to her coworker that she was getting the "Big D" from me. I don't have penis envy, fuck her good till she's dizzy and can't move, and she melts in your hand.

Can you compromise over certain things and make problems disappear? I don't really compromise on anything, maybe deciding where to eat ? If shit happens to her she doesn't bring it up, she knows I'm not her punching bag.

Can you handle meeting her family and showing face, even if you don't like them? One of the first things I screen for are good parents, her parents have to be together and I always judge the mom more than the dad. In her case she's super close to her dad (great sign) and close to her mom second.

Are you comfortable with including her in your life?
Absolutely, she's a smokeshow, everywhere I go, it gives me credit I can pull hot chicks. Everyone likes her, I still flirt even when she's around.

Game, not so much. Character and ego-check yes.

When you go from being satisfied to simply tolerating and need to use game, then the time to abandon ship has arisen.

I agree it is character and ego check. Also FRAME, maintain frame throughout a relationship is important. Honestly your game should be ingrained into you, it should be apart of who you are. That perverted, cocky, funny asshole, smirk of my face attitude is who I've become and my main loves that and so do the other girls I bang.

(01-22-2015 12:11 PM)sandman972 Wrote:  

LTR is a good gauge to see where you inner game is at.

Do you really care to lose her knowing you will find another girl even better looking than her? Nope, and she knows this. I was giving a speech about this to a guy and I told him "you shouldn't be afraid to leave a girl at any moment" I nod my head towards my girl and say, "dude if she leaves, I'm not gonna lose sleep over it, shit happens, gotta move on."

Do you have the discipline to not get too emotionally attached and ultimately break frame?

Abso fucking lutely that's my number 1 check in my relationship, I maintain my frames, I've hardly said I like the girl, it's been a YEAR, haven't said I love her.

I think every player should experience relationships. You learn alot. You are put under the toughest situations in my opinion.

Locking up a sexy girl, for how ever long it doesnt matter to much as long as you can consider it dating, but the fact that you took her off the market for however long is reliable display of your value.

The social value off this is ten fold, if a girl sees you with hot girls or knows you bang only hot girls, that shit makes their gina tingle.

You were her #1 priority alpha to the extent that she voluntarily closed her legs to other men in order to be with you. No one can deny thats a good feeling and solidifies confidence.


Nailed it !

I think the only legitimate way to now have a relationship these days and NOT lose time/investment if she bails is by constantly gaming and fucking other girls while in this LTR.

-It keeps your ego in check.
-Helps you maintain better frame.
-It keeps your "feelings" in check.
-You experience other girls.
-Your game doesn't get rusty.

There are so many benefits, you just gotta game right man.

WARNING:

This isn't for the faint of heart, especially if you have moral issues or religious values. If you stay loyal to your woman, I respect that and you might be a better man for it. Sooner or later I might legitimately lock her down, but I'm to fucking young to be not banging other pussy.

I don't regret anything besides not wearing condoms or pulling out. (Make sure your motherfuckers do BOTH).

[Frostbite]

It's not the ultimate test of Game, its the ultimate test of frame.

To defeat the constant shit tests and mind games, you have to be strong, the only catch that the longer she knows you, the more she knows how to press your buttons.

Also the push / pull has to be much more varied. For her to be hooked, you need to give her the impression that you genuinely love her, but your world wouldn't end if the relationship ended.

It's a hard balance to achieve.

Keep her on her toes, and you won't have to worry about her straying. She'll be too occupied on working on your relationship.

Think about it. I'm sure most of you have had oneitis in some form in the past (probably in a moment of beta weakness) . If shit was going bad with the girl in question, the last thing you wanted to do at the time was fuck other girls. Your attention would be on winning your main one over.

Make her feel like she needs to better herself to please you, and you'll be flying.

But beware of too much push. She will run.

[Cheetah]

Quote:

Amongst my non internet influenced pickup friends, long term relationships, monogamy in particular, are considered to be against the essential nature of humanity. The way they phrase it, "Man is not meant to be with one woman for his entire life" But the unmentionable corollary is that woman isn't cut out for it either.

Does full female circumcision change that?

[kaotic]

(01-23-2015 01:30 PM)Frostbite Wrote:  

It's not the ultimate test of Game, its the ultimate test of frame.

To defeat the constant shit tests and mind games, you have to be strong, the only catch that the longer she knows you, the more she knows how to press your buttons.

Also the push / pull has to be much more varied. For her to be hooked, you need to give her the impression that you genuinely love her, but your world wouldn't end if the relationship ended.

It's a hard balance to achieve.

Keep her on her toes, and you won't have to worry about her straying. She'll be too occupied on working on your relationship.

If a woman is constantly shit testing you and playing mind games, automatically put her in the DTF/Plate rotation. That's the last thing you need and it's only going to get worse.

I agree with varied Push/Pull I've demonstrated in my above 2 cents.

I think the best thing to do is show you care, but never say it. Actions speak louder than words. I know my main is waiting for me to say "I love you" but instead I'm pulling it out of her bit by bit. She's saying more things like "I wouldn't know what to do without you" "you're my one and only" etc etc.

I think with the right girl it isn't a hard balance, it just takes maintenance, not the constantly game her/strategy/scenarios etc. More like go out and do fun shit that you want to do and she can tag along.

[Lizard King]

(01-23-2015 07:44 AM)Handsome Creepy Eel Wrote:  

(01-22-2015 05:50 PM)Lizard King Wrote:  

(01-22-2015 02:27 AM)Handsome Creepy Eel Wrote:  

No they're not. If you need to use a lot of game on your girlfriend, it means you picked the wrong girl.

Sorry, but that is too simplistic and reductionist.

Game is essentially a codification of male-female interaction.

Understanding and application of Game is of utmost value to a male in an LTR. A female will try to elevate herself in that dynamic (hypergamy) whether she be Pre-Historic or Millennial.

Game will help a man control sexual polarity, because contemporary social programming ignores natural forces.

I have no issue with your complaint, but it needs to be pointed out that "Pre-Historic woman" and "Milennial woman" are actually one and the same. All the complaints we have about women nowadays are due to them being able to behave as if they were living in Paleocene again, only even more intensely, due to them being shielded from negative consequences of their actions.

The woman that does not need a lot of game that I am talking about here is the average woman that belongs to most the recorded history period (a period roughly between 6000 BC and 1900 AD), nowadays a minority around the world and practically non-existent in the West. You can call her the "Civilized woman".

Also note that by "lots of game" I mean "Western game", not "World game", which I consider simply natural male behaviour.

So I'll try to be more specific: if you need to think about push-pull, frame, negs or keeping the upper hand with your LTR, then you chose poorly.

I understand your point more clearly now, and it makes a lot of sense. My criticism is unfounded.

I think some game is required even when a good choice for LTR is made. An ongoing relationship needs input from both participants.

[Travesty]

(01-23-2015 01:43 PM)kaotic Wrote:  

I think the best thing to do is show you care, but never say it. Actions speak louder than words. I know my main is waiting for me to say "I love you" but instead I'm pulling it out of her bit by bit. She's saying more things like "I wouldn't know what to do without you" "you're my one and only" etc etc.

I think with the right girl it isn't a hard balance, it just takes maintenance, not the constantly game her/strategy/scenarios etc. More like go out and do fun shit that you want to do and she can tag along.

kaotic,

Do you think that it has been almost a year and she can't even cop out the words "I love you" is a big testament to how messed up American women are? Having to coax it out of her bit by bit. She seems like a high quality, fun, loyal girl... but if she is great for American standards and that is what it takes...

I am putting myself in the position if I ever wanted a real LTR with kids. If a chick took over a year to spill that I don't know if I would take it well.

I don't believe in women being hard-won. I have seen them won over too fast too easily before to believe that, whether it was by an asshole, badboy, whatever.

I think they are either really into you and start submitting off the bat, or it is an endless slightly uphill battle to get them to break down and open up (they are fighting their extremely strong hypergamic urges constantly to test if you are still the fucking man).

Or do you see this as normal and think women have always been like this?

[kaotic]

(01-23-2015 02:58 PM)Travesty444 Wrote:  

kaotic,

Do you think that it has been almost a year and she can't even cop out the words "I love you" is a big testament to how messed up American women are? Having to coax it out of her bit by bit. She seems like a high quality, fun, loyal girl... but if she is great for American standards and that is what it takes...

I am putting myself in the position if I ever wanted a real LTR with kids. If a chick took over a year to spill that I don't know if I would take it well. I don't believe in women being hard-won. I think they are either really into you and start submitting off the bat, or it is an endless slightly uphill battle to get them to break down and open up (they are fighting their extremely strong hypergamic urges constantly to test if you are still the fucking man).

Or do you see this as normal and think women have always been like this?

Well...honestly I probably should retract that, because we know we like eachother, I think we both know the word "love" complicates things. We honestly just enjoy being around eachother. I don't feel like saying the word love, because....my emotions are grounded, I think she thinks the same way I do in this regard.

She isn't playing hard to get...it's because the subject has never came up about love and marriage.

I apologize for writing that because I was thinking out aloud, perhaps inflating my ego, and writing on a whim. I was thinking about a certain thing she said last night that made me write that.

I don't care if she says I love you or not, that's not important to me.

But I do believe I won her over a long time ago, because she doesn't give me any pushback and goes with what I want to do.

Like I said she complements my life. She shows she cares by what she does for me and how she acts - which I enjoy thoroughly.

I would definently say she was submitting right off the bat, the 2nd time we hungout she asked me if she could get me a beer - I was surprised lol.

I'd like to state I've never had to fight to keep this woman around, usually she's the one being qualified and making our relationship work.

I think it's the norm for a woman either submitting or being a uppity bitch holding out waiting for the man to submit. Unfortunately the latter seems to be over .500

[Travesty]

^ I think you can "win a girl over" in America still with somewhat ease if you have the looks and game meaning she will answers your texts calls, make room in her life to hang out, be on time, be nice to your friends, look good etc. This is a ridiculously low bar though.

Now getting a 7+ (which is really a 6 in many other countries lol) that is young to say she is in love with you and be vulnerable. Her to try to really paint a picture of a future together that is not pushy or bitchy, but her just expressing she wants you in her life etc... now that seems really tough.

They put their education, career, family, friends, everything before and yes they want the man to submit first which is fucking ludicrous. I just see American girls genuinely thinking of their man and future family first as too rare. When they think about having a kid they first think how this will affect their job and ways to mitigate their kid affecting their job.

[Conquistador]

(01-23-2015 01:30 PM)Frostbite Wrote:  

Keep her on her toes, and you won't have to worry about her straying. She'll be too occupied on working on your relationship.

Nice thread OP. IMO, you guys are spending too much energy gaming and trying to achieve "success," when you know in your heart that
it will end eventually due to boredom on her part (if not boredom from you first). My basic guideline for sizing up a relationship is by sexual frequency, or more specifically by a diminishing amount of bj's that are
given. If a woman doesn't blow you on the regular, there is a very a high chance she isn't attracted to you anymore. This ties in to the straying as well. Why is this Madonna/Whore dichotomy so prevalent among most men? If she is giving you sex on the regular and her personality is still sweet, who cares? The only reason I would care if a woman "strayed" is if I had to raise another man's child. Women will not be faithful and in love
with you forever, but that should already be known by everyone on here.

[General Mayhem]

(01-23-2015 03:20 PM)Travesty444 Wrote:  

^ I think you can "win a girl over" in America still with somewhat ease if you have the looks and game meaning she will answers your texts calls, make room in her life to hang out, be on time, be nice to your friends, look good etc. This is a ridiculously low bar though.

Now getting a 7+ (which is really a 6 in many other countries lol) that is young to say she is in love with you and be vulnerable. Her to try to really paint a picture of a future together that is not pushy or bitchy, but her just expressing she wants you in her life etc... now that seems really tough.

They put their education, career, family, friends, everything before and yes they want the man to submit first which is fucking ludicrous. I just see American girls genuinely thinking of their man and future family first as too rare. When they think about having a kid they first think how this will affect their job and ways to mitigate their kid affecting their job.

I think that if your SMV is high enough, no girl is going to put you on the back burner. I'm sure any guy who has been around long enough notices that the higher your SMV gets the more girls there are willing to drop everything for you.

If I posted about how well my LTR treats me I don't think anyone would believe me, and I think it is all due to putting a lot of time and effort into being the kind of man who demands that respect.

[Travesty]

^

I'll put the Devil's Advocate questions out that don't need to be answered because they are personal.

1) Where do you live?
2) What is she on the 10 scale in looks?
3) What are you on the 10 scale in looks?

These determine the majority of causation of how things pan out in my opinion.

[OGNorCal707]

(01-22-2015 01:43 PM)Travesty444 Wrote:  

How can getting into an Endless Mental Vietnam War of emotions with a chick over the long term provide happiness? Seems like bullshit. If she takes this much effort to keep in check she is a complete dud.

This is a good point that shouldn't be understated. I will say from personally experience my long term relationships lasted 8-10 months with a common thread and arc through all of them.

The first 3 months were the "honeymoon stage" my ex's were high on me, acting like I was the greatest man they'd ever met, the sex was amazing, everything was so fun and exciting.

The next 3 months hit a plateau, where things went well, but the amazing high of the honeymoon stage was wearing off, we were realizing things we didn't like about each other, also a lot of red flags were coming to light.

The last 3 months were the "decline", shit started hitting the fan, lots of shit tests, disrespectful behavior, episodes of unstable behavior, binge drinking, etc. With my first LTR I ended it because the spell wore off and I finally realized how much of a crazy psycho bitch she was, and my last LTR basically slowly "checked out" of the relationship, all the while pretending like she was happy and everything was normal.

LTRs can be fucked man, I know from personal experience, I had talked about "relationship experience" in a past thread and I remember someone shot it down and disqualified it as being relevant to success with women.

But I think a lot of guys, maybe some who are good at pick up and ONS, once they get into a relationship they've never had to deal with all the emotions and psychology of connecting that much with a woman, and sometimes these guys are really naive and ended up getting fucked, with experience comes knowledge.

Being in an LTR will show you how women really behave, it will expose a lot of their flaws and insecurities, it will also show you how cold, calculating and manipulative they can be. If your LTR doesn't end well it may also shock you by how they can be so duplicitous they can be, and cold they can be when one day after years of being "in love" they can switch off that emotion, only to switch it on with a new guy on the drop of a dime.

In the Rationale Male Rollo Tomassi tells us that society conditions us and teaches us that women are the romantics, while in reality men are the true romantics in the classical sense.

We take our convictions more seriously and when we fall in love, we take it seriously, however hypergamy is the true nature of women and will trump "love" in the sense that we as men look at it, and this problem is only exacerbated by modern feminism which tells women it's okay to fuck a thousand guys in pursuit of "love and finding themselves."

[General Mayhem]

(01-23-2015 07:07 PM)Travesty444 Wrote:  

^

I'll put the Devil's Advocate questions out that don't need to be answered because they are personal.

1) Where do you live?
2) What is she on the 10 scale in looks?
3) What are you on the 10 scale in looks?

These determine the majority of causation of how things pan out in my opinion.

Midwest.

I'd say we are both around an 8.

[Cobra]

I am in an LTR and have gamed.

There is a difference. To me it's "self-development" pure and simple, but can be explored further in detail.

LTR means I let my body go. Game means I work out and keep in shape.

LTR means I let my fashion go. Game means I suit up and wear pocket squares.

LTR means I don't approach other women. Game means I approach when I can.

LTR also means a sample size of one. Game means a sample size of many, which help me hone in on my own personality and figure out what ticks. Not only that, I am alert when I approach and see the world for what it is (through social feedback) rather than make shit up in my own head.

TL;DR: Gaming more girls allow you to build your social skills gents, especially if they are on the lower end to start with; let's not forget that. Sorry if it has already been mentioned before.

[WestIndianArchie]

(01-23-2015 06:51 PM)General Mayhem Wrote:  

(01-23-2015 03:20 PM)Travesty444 Wrote:  

^ I think you can "win a girl over" in America still with somewhat ease if you have the looks and game meaning she will answers your texts calls, make room in her life to hang out, be on time, be nice to your friends, look good etc. This is a ridiculously low bar though.

Now getting a 7+ (which is really a 6 in many other countries lol) that is young to say she is in love with you and be vulnerable. Her to try to really paint a picture of a future together that is not pushy or bitchy, but her just expressing she wants you in her life etc... now that seems really tough.

They put their education, career, family, friends, everything before and yes they want the man to submit first which is fucking ludicrous. I just see American girls genuinely thinking of their man and future family first as too rare. When they think about having a kid they first think how this will affect their job and ways to mitigate their kid affecting their job.

I think that if your SMV is high enough, no girl is going to put you on the back burner. I'm sure any guy who has been around long enough notices that the higher your SMV gets the more girls there are willing to drop everything for you.

If I posted about how well my LTR treats me I don't think anyone would believe me, and I think it is all due to putting a lot of time and effort into being the kind of man who demands that respect.

LOL

This is part of the problem with the SMV metaphor.

But let me pose it a different way.

Has a player ever banged better man's girlfriend or wife?
Taller, Richer, More Social, More Famous? Whatever mix of factors thought to affect SMV?

I have. Plenty of players have. Something that shouldn't happen does happen, and happens frequently. It's not an aberration, but reality fucking up the theory.

It'd be easy to rationalize the other man as some beta or some "paper alpha", but the answer is far more simple than that.

She's impulsive.

One could say it's just a one time occurrence, and she hasn't truly abandoned her alpha.

But banging a chick ONCE is enough to destroy her relationship - she knows it, and I know it. Especially if she's with an actual Alpha.

She acts on emotion.
She acts impulsively.
She does something and rationalizes it later.

She doesn't have some sort of mental accounting framework with the daily SMV values of available males. She's not making rational decisions to continue with plan A, provided that the number forecast looks good.

The SMV metaphor takes an attractive masculine idea and overlays it with the behavior of women. It works in some instances, but fails in many others - such as this one.

One can torture the metaphor by going into
1) temporal SMV
2) relative SMV
3) Exceptions that prove the rule

But dudes are better off recognizing that the SMV is a metaphor, not some predictive theory of human relationships. By all means, a man should seek to improve himself. That will turn into more lays, more choice, more excitement - but raising one's value doesn't control the behavior or a particular chick. Not for the long run.

Getting back to the issue at hand, Women stay in LTR's because they choose to do so. Be it a conscious decision, an unconscious decision, a reluctant decision....But it still ends up being up to her. A player can do what he can to influence said decision - but ultimately he has no control.

And chicks make bad decisions ALL THE TIME. Bad decisions in the short term, in the long term, for her overall goals and "life plan" THIS WASN'T ON MY DREAM BOARD!!

..That's why this topic is so rich imo.

Real life women defy the model.

If one is a hard working Western man in Latin America, Eastern Europe or South East Asia, in shape, optimistic and realistic - one should be able to hold any # of chicks down. But we already know that the SEA value system is different than the Western one, and lots of the FSU is rampant with divorce. Guys already know the stories of so-called fiercely loyal Latinas. From the jump, the idea of SMV fails real world tests. And most of these areas are absent the evil scourge of feminism.

End up asking the age old question, how to keep a woman happy?

Maybe the question should change, how does she keep me happy?

Or better yet, why would I ever associate happiness with a woman?

Well that last one might be too jaded...

Great topic, I'm loving it so far.

WIA