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Obama to propose two free years of community college for students
#1

Obama to propose two free years of community college for students

Keep up the secondary education market, despite being able to basically get most 4 year degrees from free online classes anyway.

That said, I know things like this can push society toward learning and career development, or even have the facade impact of making people *feel* they're improving and more productive (is that good or bad?).

This will impact enrollment for 4 year universities. This will impact online degree options.

Whether you think it's good or bad...it's welfare. Anybody can take out a loan to go to college, and 2 years community college doesn't cost that much anyway. It's total welfare. I guess I don't understand how teaching people that they don't have to pay for anything is good long-term for our society. I don't look at k-12 and think, yeah, we should extend that to k-14.

http://www.politico.com/story/2015/01/ba...14094.html

Quote:Quote:

President Barack Obama will need the approval of Congress to realize his proposal for making two years of community college free for students.

So far, that plan doesn’t have an official price tag — other than “significant,” according to White House officials. If all 50 states participate, the proposal could benefit 9 million students each year and save students an average of $3,800 in tuition, the White House said.

But administration officials insisted on a call with reporters Thursday evening that “this is a proposal with bipartisan appeal.”

Case in point: Republican Gov. Bill Haslam, whose brainchild Tennessee Promise program strongly influenced Obama’s proposal. Beginning this year, any high school graduate in that state is eligible for two years of free community college tuition under the Tennessee Promise.

Obama, alongside Vice President Joe Biden and second lady Jill Biden, will tout his proposal dubbed “America’s College Promise” during a visit Pellissippi Community College in Knoxville, Tenn., on Friday.

“What I’d like to do is to see the first two years of community college free for everybody who’s willing to work for it,” Obama said in a White House video posted Thursday evening. “It’s something we can accomplish, and it’s something that will train our workforce so that we can compete with anybody in the world.”

The president’s proposal would make two years of community college free for students of any age with a C+ average who attend school at least half-time and who are making “steady progress” toward their degree.

To be eligible, community colleges would have to offer academic programs that fully transfer credits to local public four-year colleges and universities or training programs with high graduation rates that lead to in-demand degrees and certificates. Community colleges must also adopt “promising and evidence-based institutional reforms” to improve student outcomes.

Federal funding would cover three-quarters of the average cost of community college, and Obama is asking states to pick up the rest of the tab — assuming Congress agrees to the plan in the first place.

“I hope we’ve got the chance to make sure that Congress gets behind these kinds of efforts to make sure that even as we rebound and grow in 2015, that it benefits everybody and not just some,” the president said in the video.

Obama said his online announcement was “a little preview” of his plans for the Jan. 20 State of the Union address. The cost details will be in the president’s 2016 budget proposal, White House director Cecilia Muñoz said.

Muñoz said Obama aims to make college “the norm in the same way high school is the norm now.”

The Tennessee Promise idea has, needless to say, caught on. And Education Undersecretary Ted Mitchell said on Thursday’s call that he hopes Obama’s plan will encourage more states to start similar programs.

But the idea is not without critics.

The Institute for College Access and Success, which is typically in step with the Obama administration, called the proposal “a wolf in sheep’s clothing.” Among the problems, TICAS says, is that the more substantial costs of college — living expenses, textbooks and transportation — are typically left out of the deal.

And Bryce McKibben, a former Association of Community College Trustees policy analyst who recently became a policy adviser to Democrats on the Senate education committee, has noted potential flaws. For instance, the program could end up doing more for less needy students than those who need it the most, because low-income applicants may already be covered by Pell grants and other federal aid.

Since state appropriations plummeted during the economic recession, students and families have been forced to pay more for college. From 2008-12, public college funding in 26 states fell by 5 percent or more, according to a recent Center for American Progress report.

Advocacy groups including CAP, which has counseled the Obama administration on higher education issues, have promoted ideas to spur both federal and state funding to boost college enrollment.

“The first order of business is to make college more affordable — and by affordable, we mean basically make it free for low- and moderate-income families through federal investments and stimulating state investments,” David Bergeron, vice president of postsecondary education at CAP, told POLITICO earlier this week.

At the same time, Bergeron had some reservations about Friday’s announcement.

“I don’t want to just have our low-income and least prepared students going to community colleges,” he said, “because those community colleges are the least resourced.”

But Thomas J. Snyder, president of the massive Ivy Tech Community College in Indiana, says he fully supports the idea, which he called “a game-changer.”

“We have ground to make up against other countries, and this is a big first step in doing just that,” Snyder said in an email. “It will make the goal of achieving a college degree more attainable for more Americans — whether it be a two-year degree that leads to a good-paying job or the first step toward a more affordable four-year option.”

Haslam and Sen. Lamar Alexander will both be on hand at Friday’s event. Alexander plugged the Tennessee Promise on the Senate floor Wednesday. But the newly elected Senate education committee chair also said that simplifying the federal financial aid process is “the one thing the federal government can do to give more opportunity to Americans, particularly in community colleges.”

Also Friday, Obama plans to announce the new American Technical Training Fund to “expand innovating, high-quality technical training programs across the country,” according to a White House release. The program will award programs that partner with employers and include “work-based learning opportunities,” provide accelerated training and accommodate part-time work.

The president has some limited authority to steer Department of Labor funds toward skills training that focuses on partnerships with employers and accelerated training. But a larger investment would need to be authorized by Congress, and in recent years both chambers have more or less ignored Obama’s proposals for investments in jobs-driven training, such as a 2015 budget proposal for a $1.5 billion “Community College Job-Driven Training Fund” that went nowhere.

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#2

Obama to propose two free years of community college for students

So you think it's a bad idea for kids to become educated for free ?

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#3

Obama to propose two free years of community college for students

Quote: (01-09-2015 08:41 AM)Sourcecode Wrote:  

So you think it's a bad idea for kids to become educated for free ?

They already are.

Edit: Above is true, sorta. I don't think it's good for these United States of America (being huge and incredibly diverse demographically) to make widespread determinations on how to run society. I don't think separating cost and benefit is a good thing. Make no mistake it's not free. Cost increases when you separate it from benefit.

“Until you make the unconscious conscious, it will direct your life and you will call it fate.”
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#4

Obama to propose two free years of community college for students

Nothing is "free". The fact that probably 45% of American voters are gullible enough to believe there are "free" things from the govt. goes to show why Democracy always fails.

So we have a shrinking middle class and a massive federal debt looming that will cause shockwaves to our economy. And now on top of it we are going to raise taxes OR add to the national debt OR most likely both, so that we can "educate" (indoctrinate) more kids.

At some point people have to realize govt. cannot fix most problems and in their attempt to fix problems they often cause more. The most likely outcome will be higher taxes on the middle class, increasing college costs, and the value of a bachelors degree will dissipate.
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#5

Obama to propose two free years of community college for students

"free"

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#6

Obama to propose two free years of community college for students

Bachelor degrees from middling colleges are already pretty much useless unless it's a math or engineering degree. A two year degree or a trade is a far better bet for solid stable income. This education idea isn't a horrible but it's something that should be left to the individual States to decide based on needs.
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#7

Obama to propose two free years of community college for students

Waste of time and money.

We have this sort of fallacy in Britain too (though higher education is no longer "free" here) - the idea that more bums on seats in college will somehow translate into a better educated population.

If only it were that simple.

Quote:Quote:

Muñoz said Obama aims to make college “the norm in the same way high school is the norm now.”

It already is. 65% of US high school graduates enrol in college.

The main problem is the Bell curve distribution for intelligence. You could send 100% of high school graduates to college - but what would be the point of that?

Not everybody has the smarts or the inclination to benefit from higher education. Saying everybody should go to college is like saying everybody should have a chance to play in the NBA.

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Here's what happened in Britain when we massively expanded our higher education sector to make going to university "the norm":

* Quality declined dramatically at most institutions. To accomodate people who would previously have been classified as not clever enough to do a degree, degrees became easier

* Joke degrees and low-quality universities sprung up like mushrooms. You can get a degree in windsurfing, media studies or women's studies from the University of Scumbagshire (formerly Scumbagshire Municipal Car Park). But what's the point?

* The value of a degree plummeted. We have lots and lots of university graduates on minimum wage or unemployed.

* Student debt exploded. We have young people leaving university in debt, with dubious employment prospects, and little or nothing of any value to show for their experience.

People believe college is a gateway to a more comfortable middle class life. And it is - as long as you are able and willing to do the work, AND if the subject you're studying is valuable to employers.

For most people, college is just a really expensive three-or-four-year party that leaves them not substantially more employable at the end.
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#8

Obama to propose two free years of community college for students

The government's real fight should be with unpaid internships and unpaid work, which actually warps the professional market significantly.
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#9

Obama to propose two free years of community college for students

So thats what he's doing in Knoxville today.

Tennessee offered 2 years of free community college starting last year. Its pretty awesome and cleans the chumps out of the process via hoops (I work with the program itself so I know) Here are the following ways to get booted out of the program:
- fail to provide your community service hours
- fail to file the forms each year in college
- fail to report income
- plain old fail your academics

The whole process requires students to have their shit together in general so fuckwits get booted out of the program in the application phase. You can't be a lazy piece of shit and get through it.

Last, who pays for all of this? Gamblers. The entire thing is cost zero to the state and is funded from the state lottery fund. The money previously went into grants to pay for underprivelidged university kids but the value per student was low because tuition costs for 4 years are so high, you can get more degrees/dollar out of community college.

I hope that this doesn't fly federally because no way its going to be as well thought out or cost neutral.

PS, they can't even come up with their own damn name. Its the "tennessee promise" and they are calling this 'america's promise'

Why do the heathen rage and the people imagine a vain thing? Psalm 2:1 KJV
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#10

Obama to propose two free years of community college for students

When I went to community college around year 2000 in California, it was $8 a credit if I remember correctly. That's already practically free!

Made out like a bandit too, after getting certifications for various career paths I bounced right into a 30k a year job. Don't waste your time with that degree stuff if you're not the intellectual type. Get certified and get out!

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#11

Obama to propose two free years of community college for students

Quote: (01-09-2015 09:38 AM)Dr. Howard Wrote:  

So thats what he's doing in Knoxville today.

Tennessee offered 2 years of free community college starting last year. Its pretty awesome and cleans the chumps out of the process via hoops (I work with the program itself so I know) Here are the following ways to get booted out of the program:
- fail to provide your community service hours
- fail to file the forms each year in college
- fail to report income
- plain old fail your academics

The whole process requires students to have their shit together in general so fuckwits get booted out of the program in the application phase. You can't be a lazy piece of shit and get through it.

Last, who pays for all of this? Gamblers. The entire thing is cost zero to the state and is funded from the state lottery fund. The money previously went into grants to pay for underprivelidged university kids but the value per student was low because tuition costs for 4 years are so high, you can get more degrees/dollar out of community college.

I hope that this doesn't fly federally because no way its going to be as well thought out or cost neutral.

PS, they can't even come up with their own damn name. Its the "tennessee promise" and they are calling this 'america's promise'

PS, guess who started the whole idea years ago? Dolly fucking Parton. If you graduate from high school in the small town she's from, her foundation will pay for you to go to the local college for free.

Why do the heathen rage and the people imagine a vain thing? Psalm 2:1 KJV
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#12

Obama to propose two free years of community college for students

I consider myself to be right wing economically and I see education as a public good that should be distributed freely via taxation. What will keep the experiment honest is having the CC's still compete for students based on their programs, much like charter schools do now. publicly funded yet privately managed and forced to compete.

I think most of us here would say that having less young men saddled with student loan debt and obtaining some sort of post secondary degree would be beneficial for men over all.
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#13

Obama to propose two free years of community college for students

"I think most of us here would say that having less _____________________________ would be beneficial for men over all."

...young men saddled with mortgage debt...
...single moms having to juggle work and kids...
...unemployed men struggling to pay bills...
...violence in the middle east...
...car accident deaths...
...cancer related deaths...
...crack babies...
...pollution...
...blue balls...
...LMR...
...mosquitos...
...STDs...

“Until you make the unconscious conscious, it will direct your life and you will call it fate.”
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#14

Obama to propose two free years of community college for students

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#15

Obama to propose two free years of community college for students

I think I might be biased here since education, as far as the freshly out of highschool kid is concerned, is free in Finland, for which I am thankful as it helped me get to where I am now. As far as comparing systems go, it's a poor, poor idea since we're 5 mil. with no natural resources compared to the States, but IF there was a required standard for teachers and IF the teaching was practical-oriented, I could see this as something that might help people get their shit together and do something useful.

Although studying medieval art history is still going to land you a McJob. Reap what you sow, et cetera. Could someone break down the difference between a community college/the other options? Seeing "free" education piss people off does confuse me a bit with my background being what it is.

EDIT: Fuck writing with a keyboard after deadlift day.
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#16

Obama to propose two free years of community college for students

Quote: (01-09-2015 08:41 AM)Sourcecode Wrote:  

So you think it's a bad idea for kids to become educated for free ?

Yes if they are learning worthless things. Granted community college preps kids for 4 year colleges and university and some turn out associates degrees in a practical skill.

As long as no b.s. classes like women's studies or you're a special snowflake 101 is offered I'm cool with it. But there has to be ways to fail or kick kids out so they don't clog classes for those that want to do something with their lives.

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#17

Obama to propose two free years of community college for students

I'm in favor.

Letting more people get an education is worth it.

People get out of hand criticizing college. It could be better but I'm sure as hell happy I didn't just stop going to school after high school.

Let more people be educated for free. Sounds good.
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#18

Obama to propose two free years of community college for students

Quote: (01-09-2015 11:42 AM)Sonsowey Wrote:  

I'm in favor.

Letting more people get an education is worth it.

People get out of hand criticizing college. It could be better but I'm sure as hell happy I didn't just stop going to school after high school.

Let more people be educated for free. Sounds good.

Where are you guys getting the idea it will be "free"?

I addressed this above. Unless...

- College professors agree to work for free
- Maintenance workers agree to work for free
- Power company agrees to keep the lights on for free

On and on and on.

Someone will pay for this. And it will be the middle class in the form of higher tax and/or more national debt (declining value of the USD which means a higher COL).

I would be in favor of a system like Tennessee has, and do it on the state by state level. But on the national level this will be full of fraud and corruption.
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#19

Obama to propose two free years of community college for students

Quote: (01-09-2015 09:38 AM)Dr. Howard Wrote:  

I hope that this doesn't fly federally because no way its going to be as well thought out or cost neutral.

And that right there is the rub, isn't it? I don't have a problem with states trying this out on their own but I don't want to pay for this shit.

What percentage of the costs are funded by gamblers? Florida's Bright Futures scholarship is funded by the Florida Lottery, but every couple years they reduce the benefits so now people are paying for books and other shit that was once covered.

It's also created a massive opportunity for corruption and I would like to see it investigated from top to bottom.

"Men willingly believe what they wish." - Julius Caesar, De Bello Gallico, Book III, Ch. 18
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#20

Obama to propose two free years of community college for students

Right, it will be free to the students, I assumed everyone here was smart enough to understand that without elaboration. It will be paid for by taxation, sure. I prefer kids after high school to have the opportunity to firther their education for free, and I think paying for that through taxation is more than accpetable.
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#21

Obama to propose two free years of community college for students

Quote: (01-09-2015 11:50 AM)Sonsowey Wrote:  

Right, it will be free to the students, I assumed everyone here was smart enough to understand that without elaboration. It will be paid for by taxation, sure. I prefer kids after high school to have the opportunity to firther their education for free, and I think paying for that through taxation is more than accpetable.

Not really, the students will still pay some form of taxes to help for this, or at least most likely their parents will. And if COL goes up, the students will pay for that as well every time they go buy groceries.

Our Federal govt. runs nothing efficiently and this will be no different.
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#22

Obama to propose two free years of community college for students

Quote: (01-09-2015 11:50 AM)Sonsowey Wrote:  

Right, it will be free to the students, I assumed everyone here was smart enough to understand that without elaboration. It will be paid for by taxation, sure. I prefer kids after high school to have the opportunity to firther their education for free, and I think paying for that through taxation is more than accpetable.

What state do you live in?

"Men willingly believe what they wish." - Julius Caesar, De Bello Gallico, Book III, Ch. 18
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#23

Obama to propose two free years of community college for students

18 Trillion of debt and now he wants to give something else away for "free"??

Allows for 2 more years of socialist indoctrination for the people who otherwise wouldn't have gone to college.
Free college! Free birth control! Free food stamps! Free welfare! Free healthcare! Free Obama-phones! Buy everyone with taxpayers' money and get them dependant.
Another little kickback to liberal Academia.

Millennials still can't figure out why all their teachers want big government.
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#24

Obama to propose two free years of community college for students

Just one big machine to get more of the population feminized

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#25

Obama to propose two free years of community college for students

I'm actually in favor of students choosing community colleges over the big name 4-year campuses.

That said, there's absolutely zero need to make this "free". It nearly all 2nd tier cities, and in some 1st tier cities, it's entirely possible to bust your ass as a server, rent out your own studio, and pay your own college fees. It's been done and it's being done right now. It might not be easy, but nothing worthwhile ever is.

The U.S. is not Europe. We're a land of violent, competitive bandits, and this is what made us #1. Self-sufficiency and exploitation of others is as American as apple pie (which itself isn't American). Offering "free" tuition sends out the wrong message and isn't in line with American core values.

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